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<seok>
does handler-case catch errors from new threads?
<seok>
I have a websocket server which I want to keep running but log errors in case of error
<seok>
It spews error everytime someone disconnects, I don't know how to fix that but the server seems to keep running after that
<no-defun-allowed>
You should put the handler-case in the function that is run by the new thread.
<seok>
hm, setting *debugger-hook* to nil does not help
<seok>
no-defun-allowed: I would like to, but the function is deep within the library
<seok>
Is there any way on high level?
<seok>
It's within clack, and I don't understand a thing that's going on in clack
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<no-defun-allowed>
Probably not.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<ebrasca>
beach: Hi!
<seok>
hey!
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<beach>
ebrasca: What is missing in Mezzano, and what are some things that need improvement?
<ebrasca>
beach: I am now working on tcp , I like to make usocket work correctly for lybraries like hunchentoot.
<beach>
I see.
<ebrasca>
beach: fittestbits__ is working to make usb storage and file system.
<beach>
I thought sockets were an abstraction from Unix.
<ebrasca>
beach: usocket have backend for Genera.
<beach>
I see. But I still thought it was a Unix abstraction, and if so, if I were to write a new operating system, I might think of better abstractions.
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<ebrasca>
beach: Usocket is on top of Mezzano abstraction. I have taken inspiration from usocket for tcp server part for Mezzano.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
I am just guessing about the Unix abstraction. I know very little about networking.
<beach>
And I know very little about the goals of Mezzano, so I am guessing about them as well.
<ebrasca>
beach: Do you know assambler and compilers?
<beach>
A bit yes.
<ebrasca>
I have writen with one next developer and he is interested in porting next to Mezzano.
<ebrasca>
I think with McCLIM for GUI.
<no-defun-allowed>
The browser next?
<ebrasca>
yes
<no-defun-allowed>
Wouldn't you have to port (or replace) WebKit then?
<beach>
I was going to say something like that.
<ebrasca>
He say if he can do it is ETA 1 year
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe it's possible with Iota, but then wouldn't you also have to port whatever graphics libraries WebKit uses (such as OpenGL possibly)?
<ebrasca>
Part of email "We just need to write a web renderer in Common Lisp" and "This is a bit of a way off though, at least a year"
<ebrasca>
no-defun-allowed: I don't know more.
<beach>
OK, so I read the Wikipedia page about sockets, and it looks like (with some adaptation) it could be a non-Unix abstraction as well. Things like file descriptors would have to be abandoned, of course.
<ebrasca>
I am not sure if it is nice to share parts of emails in public.
<no-defun-allowed>
You probably shouldn't.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think "at least a year" is a bit of an understatement though.
<ebrasca>
beach: I have someting working from usocket.
<beach>
I would have to read up on sockets and usocket to understand more, and that's not highest priority for me right now.
<ebrasca>
beach: Do you like to work with McCLIM ?
<beach>
ebrasca: Sure. Why do you ask?
<ebrasca>
beach: Mezano can get help with McCLIM.
<beach>
ebrasca: If you are looking to give me more work, I am afraid you are out of luck.
<ebrasca>
beach: Why you asked then?
<beach>
Oh, about what is missing and what needs improvement? I am interested in how complete Mezzano is and in which direction it is going. I am not interested in contributing at this point.
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<ebrasca>
beach: I don't know what froggey is doing.
<beach>
OK.
* ebrasca
error in interpreter 0 Restart Ebrasca , 1 Asign new value to x , 2 abort to top level interpreter
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<no-defun-allowed>
2
<seok>
can I keep my production server running just ignoring errors?
<seok>
Do I need to compile it? Or would it be ok to keep the repl on even if it is spitting errors?
<seok>
sorry, live server not production
<ebrasca>
seok: I think when you write someting inside repl it get compiled.
<no-defun-allowed>
You can, and your server is still compiled even if you're at a REPL typing in functions.
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<seok>
Guess that's the only way
<no-defun-allowed>
But you probably should investigate the source of your errors.
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<seok>
There's an error that spews out using fukamachi's websocket library when you set the server to a variable, then a client disconnects
<seok>
and I am too newbie to write my own websocket library with usocket
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<seok>
I'd like to fix it, but the job is beyond me. haha
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is there a CL function I can use to check all elements of a sequence are different?
<beach>
You can try to apply REMOVE-DUPLICATES and see whether the result is the same length as the original.
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<beach>
It is probably not terribly efficient.
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<no-defun-allowed>
That's what I have right now, but -- yeah, that's what I was thinking too.
<beach>
Otherwise, if your elements can be compared using one of the comparison functions supported by hash tables, you can loop and enter the elements into one as you go.
<no-defun-allowed>
True.
<no-defun-allowed>
Stepping back a bit, I don't really like my process to generate all the combinations of (0 1 2 3) in a specific order either: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1506
<beach>
(loop for table = (make-hash-table ...) for element in list never (gethash element table) do (setf (gethash element table) t)) something like that.
<no-defun-allowed>
Gotcha, thanks.
<beach>
Oh, that technique is very inefficient.
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<beach>
Try defining a recursive function that returns all the combinations of the elements of a list.
<beach>
In each invocation, select all the elements in order. For each element selected, remove it and call recursively.
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
<beach>
At backtrack, cons the selected element only every sublist.
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<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: also, look at the ALEXANDRIA library... map-permutations and similar.
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe line 4 can be removed though.
<no-defun-allowed>
...no, that has to stay.
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<beach>
Really?
<beach>
I was going to suggest that it is not needed
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<no-defun-allowed>
When I did, I just got an empty list.
<beach>
Maybe you are right.
<beach>
No, wait, the base case (for the empty list) is '(()).
<no-defun-allowed>
Good point.
<beach>
It is easy to get the base case wrong. And then the code gets unnecessarily more complicated and harder to understand.
<no-defun-allowed>
Definitely.
<beach>
I see that problem over and over again.
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<no-defun-allowed>
That makes sense now. Thankyou.
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<White_Flame>
I may be stupid, but is there a way for LOOP to return the final value of one of its variable?
<White_Flame>
+s
<no-defun-allowed>
The only way I know of is to include `finally (return <variable>)` as the last clause, but I don't think it's very pretty.
<White_Flame>
yeah, that just rubber-ducked to me as I said this
<White_Flame>
it seems the only "natural" return values from LOOP are the accumulation clauses?
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<flip214>
> During each iteration, the constructs collect and collecting collect the value of the supplied form into a list. When iteration terminates, the list is returned.
<flip214>
> If into is used, the construct does not provide a default return value
<flip214>
> The constructs always, never, and thereis provide specific values to be returned when a loop terminates
<flip214>
> The thereis construct terminates iteration the first time that the value of the supplied form is non-nil; the loop returns the value of the supplied form
<White_Flame>
hmm, yeah, but they force termination instead of just returning a value when the iterators finish
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<flip214>
to return just the last value of a variable there's no other way than "finally (return VAR)"
<flip214>
(apart from not using a LOOP-variable but some outer LET binding instead, and returning that: (let (var) (loop for i below 5 do (setf var i)) var)
<White_Flame>
yep, seems so. It just seems like a weird lack of FINALLY, that it doesn't return the value of the form it evaluates
<flip214>
that's so it doesn't interfere with other loop termination clauses like THEREIS and COLLECT ;)
<aeth>
wow, thereis a thereis
<White_Flame>
hmm, yeah I guess
<flip214>
I still like ITERATE more, it better integrates with other code than via LOOP's DO
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<varjag>
so, let's say i have a method creating closures and placing them into job list (within a class instance)
<varjag>
another worker thread cosnumes them and executes closures when external conditions are met
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<varjag>
what's the easiest way to make the original thread (with creator method) wait for completion here?
<shka__>
varjag: call join thread on the new thread
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<shka__>
*on the new thread object
<shka__>
on the original thread :-)
<varjag>
the worker thread isn't spawned by the creator thread
<varjag>
and it's only one, not per job
<Shinmera>
use a condition variable, I guess.
<varjag>
and poll it?
<Shinmera>
? no
<shka__>
varjag: maybe just use lparallel?
<Shinmera>
read the BT docs on condition variables.
<shka__>
or there is a standalone future library called blackbird
<shka__>
or if you really roll your own, what Shinmera said
<varjag>
ah
<Shinmera>
but yeah, using lparallel is preferred if you can.
<flip214>
+1 on lparallel
<jackdaniel>
use a blocking read on a mailbox
<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up bordeaux-threads make-condition-variable
<varjag>
thijso: not quite that.. i have a bunch of communicator threads to remote devices
<varjag>
that are perishable, but jobs should persist
<varjag>
and when completed remotely, should complete the action on c&c host
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<shka__>
varjag: IIRC blackbird is rather nifty solution for that
<varjag>
i'll look into that… only seen it in context of cl-async
<shka__>
i really prefer to use lparallel when i can though
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<froggey>
beach: Mezzano is a reasonably complete CL implementation, but very incomplete operating system. for day to day use it needs a proper editor & development environment, a web browser (youtube support would be nice, but I'm not getting my hopes up), and various minor nice things like a music player
<froggey>
and there are long term improvements: a faster compiler that generates better code, improved source location information, more drivers, a better GC, improved conformance, endless bug fixes, etc
<beach>
froggey: I don't know how attached you are to your current compiler, but we definitely intend for Cleavir to become better. It has good potential for it.
<dlowe>
froggey: I would expect adding device support would be the main problem for Mezzano if you were wanting to run it on hardware
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<beach>
froggey: And, perhaps you want to read the chapter on garbage collection in the SICL specification to see what you think?
<beach>
froggey: On the other hand, maybe you are doing this to amuse yourself and you would rather just hack away. That's fine too.
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<beach>
froggey: If you are interested in any of those things, I'll be happy to explain some more strategies we have and/or point you to documents to read.
<beach>
froggey: You don't seem to hang out in #sicl, where we do most of our musings, so as to avoid too much noise here.
<froggey>
beach: it's entirely for my own amusement, but I'm absolutely up for collaboration. especially on higher level things like IDEs, I do low level programming, that kind of thing is a little beyond me
<beach>
Oh, that sounds like a perfect opportunity for collaboration then.
<froggey>
Cleavir was the portable/implementation independent compiler, right?
<beach>
Yes.
<froggey>
I'm not particularly attached to the current compiler, but it does have a minimum set of features that any replacement would need to meet. fast unboxed arithmetic, simd support, and following the mezzano abi of course
<beach>
Sure.
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<froggey>
dlowe: drivers aren't that big a deal, a few generic drivers can cover a large number of systems. AHCI for disks, OHCI/UHCI/EHCI for USB controllers, network cards are the big issues where there's not much common ground
<froggey>
graphics cards too, but a simple framebuffer is enough for me
<froggey>
beach: what's the SICL specification? I'll have a look?
<beach>
Cleavir does not do SIMD (yet), but unboxed arithmetic is in there. The point of Cleavir is that it can adapt to the client. That way, Clasp can use it, as can CLISP (in addition to SICL), so I think I have proved that it is sufficiently customizable).
<beach>
froggey: Chapter 23 is the garbage collector.
<beach>
froggey: It's a lot to read, so don't feel you have to.
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<beach>
froggey: But let's keep the dialog open, especially with respect to the IDE.
<beach>
froggey: scymtym has already done a lot of work in Clouseau, the McCLIM inspector.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Metamodular is standard specification?
<beach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: No.
<beach>
froggey: And I have preliminary ideas on the Second Climacs editor, as well as on the Clordane debugger (a real debugger, not a backtrace examiner).
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
This is a common article?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: You can safely ignore both Metamodular and SICL.
<froggey>
beach: I don't think it's directly applicable, our object models seem too different. though I'll keep it in mind
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<froggey>
just from a quick skim
<beach>
froggey: Ah, right.
<beach>
froggey: I forgot about the reliance on the SICL object model in the GC. Sorry.
<beach>
I was thinking more about the division between per-thread collectors and the global collector.
<froggey>
ok, I'll try to remember to have a closer look the next time I feel like doing GC work
<beach>
OK, again, don't feel you have to.
<beach>
I got the idea from a paper by some French colleagues. I think their paper was for CAML.
<beach>
But I simplified it by not allowing cross pointers between threads.
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<beach>
froggey: Speaking of which, have you given some more thought to coming to ELS, and perhaps even to submitting a paper?
<beach>
froggey: I think your work is important, and there are a bunch of people at ELS who do not follow IRC.
<Shinmera>
Mezzano would be fantastic to have at ELS, even if it's just a demo paper.
<beach>
I totally agree.
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<froggey>
eh. it's not likely. there are some changes in my personal life that might make attending ELS possible, but don't get your hopes up
<beach>
Hmm, OK.
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<froggey>
for the IDE, is there anything that is practically usable right now? even if it's incomplete
<beach>
No, not as such. But the Clouseau inspector is quite usable.
<froggey>
my current focus is on running on real hardware as an independent system, so that does requires an editor and something at least a bit slime-like
<froggey>
oh well
<beach>
The McCLIM listener and the backtrace inspector (called the "debugger" but isn't one) are also usable.
<beach>
So you basically have SLIME minus Emacs in those.
<beach>
And I believe (first) Climacs is still usable with McCLIM.
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<beach>
But these components have not been turned into an IDE.
<froggey>
I can work on backend things in the meantime, McCLIM's Mezzano port hits some very slow paths that I need to improve
<beach>
Sounds great!
<froggey>
Mezzano's native editor works, but I don't really want to use it...
<beach>
Heh!
<beach>
I don't know the state of the frame-buffer backend for McCLIM, but that is something I would like to see working some day.
<jackdaniel>
it works
<beach>
Great!
<jackdaniel>
painfully slow, but still
<jackdaniel>
it is based on cl-vectors, but I have something better integrated with McCLIM on mind
<beach>
So there would be an opportunity for froggey to do work that would benefit both Mezzano and McCLIM.
<beach>
I mean, I assume Mezzano has nothing but a frame buffer at the bottom of the rendering stack.
<jackdaniel>
McCLIM works (or worked) on Mezzano
<froggey>
it works and shipped with the last mezzano demo release
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
But I was thinking of the performance of the frame-buffer backend.
<jackdaniel>
we can speed it up a lot, that's for sure, but there is a limit of what you can do on a single processor
<beach>
I see yes. But we typically have more than one. :)
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<scymtym>
i have local changes that make the framebuffer backend quite usable (when compiled with SBCL)
<jackdaniel>
I would rather keep McCLIM in a single process, there already are plenty of gotchas;
<jackdaniel>
(thread-safe, but doing its work in a single thread, at least per-frame)
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<froggey>
beach: btw, if you want to chat more I'm around fairly often. weekday evenings (after 5pm uk time) or weekends are usually the best times to get a hold of me
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<beach>
froggey: That means weekends for me then. I usually go spend time with my (admittedly small) family when you are free during weekdays.
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<Oladon_wfh>
#/join #lispweb
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<skidd0>
system npg is listed on quicklisp's unofficial docs, but when i attempt to load it in my image it cannot be found
<skidd0>
am i doing something wrong or is this an issue i should report to QL?
<Xach>
skidd0: the unofficial docs have little to do with current quicklisp-provided software
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<Xach>
skidd0: npg does not build any more and is not part of quicklisp
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<Xach>
It used to build but broke and the maintainer did not update things.
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<skidd0>
i see
<skidd0>
thank you
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<Lycurgus>
drmeister, had/did it occur to you to have clasp not be an implementation and be implementation agnostic?
<Lycurgus>
s/had/has/
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<Shinmera>
what
<drmeister>
Can you elaborate.
<Lycurgus>
i mean it could be a pkg that gets adapted for different or a basket of implementations to produce binaries
<Shinmera>
what?
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<drmeister>
No one has successfully created a Common Lisp system that can interoperate with C++.
<drmeister>
Other than Clasp.
<Lycurgus>
i c, ty
<drmeister>
If you are asking - "why go to the trouble of developing a completely new implementation of Common Lisp". Answer: (1) I wanted interoperation with C++ (2) I didn't know how much work would be involved (3) It's been extremely enlightening.
<Lycurgus>
no I asked the question I wanted to know about, and you answered, ty again
<dlowe>
The only other option would have been to write a complete C++ compiler in CL, which is even scarier.
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<drmeister>
Lycurgus: No worries.
<drmeister>
dlowe: Now that ... would be crazy. :-)
<edgar-rft>
one cannot write a complete C++ compiler because C++ is still imcomplete, they're working on C++20
<Lycurgus>
the sort of thing I meant would have been close to FFI and SWIG like, but nevermind
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<selwyn>
it is not possible to interoperate satisfactorily with c++ in that way for various non-trivial reasons not all of which i understand
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
selwyn. You can use SBCL instructions.
<drmeister>
Exception handling is a big one.
<drmeister>
It's relatively easy to call C++ code via C wrappers. But soon you want to be calling C++ code and passing Common Lisp callbacks and vice-versa. Modern C++ libraries do all kinds of stuff.
<drmeister>
Someone who says - isn't it just SWIG and FFI? Nope - it's not - it turns out to be way more difficult than that. If it was that easy - someone would have done it.
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
drmeister. What You not works? Show the code.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
drmeister. You can use SBCL instructions instead other packages.
<Shinmera>
asdf_asdf_asdf: please stop.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Shinmera. You should quit from the chat.
<Bike>
why have we not banned this person yet
<Shinmera>
I don't know. Who has mod rights?
<Bike>
fe[nl]ix, i guess? and a bunch of people i don't remember
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Why? I nothing do.
<Shinmera>
I think Xach does.
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<Bike>
you're unwilling to listen to anyone's advice, combative when you don't agree with it, and you know nothing about the subject of the channel but try to tell everyone they're wrong all the time.
<Shinmera>
asdf_asdf_asdf: You have been told numerous times by numerous people that your messages are distracting, misleading, and not constructive as you lack the proper insight and knowledge to provide useful advice.
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
I do not mislead others. You mislead others in mistakes. I try a constructive advice. Not Like You.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Not as You*
asdf_asdf_asdf was kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel [asdf_asdf_asdf]
<Bike>
thanks, mon.
<jackdaniel>
hm, "channel ban list is full"
<jackdaniel>
this is beyond my scope of irc expertise
<Bike>
so controversial
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: got to remove a couple from the ban list then, I suppose.
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<jackdaniel>
I gather so much, but manipulating this list is beyond my scope of expertise (and interest ;)
<jackdaniel>
good night \o
<Shinmera>
Fair enough. Good night!
<selwyn>
goodnight
<Bike>
good night.
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<p_l>
cleaned up the banlist a bit
<Shinmera>
Thanks!
<p_l>
took mostly the too-specific bans down
<p_l>
also holy shit, that's a lot of my bans there
<p_l>
I think we might be able to drop pretty much all of them, I think after few years the perps moved on
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<Shinmera>
Can always ban again, yeah.
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<p_l>
ok, going to unban... maybe not all, but close?
<p_l>
or maybe all would be better
<p_l>
it's really been years for some
<Shinmera>
Some of these domain and user names are quite something.
<p_l>
sorry for the spam, I'd say it's an example of why UX design in terms of input stability *matters*
<p_l>
our banlist is empty
<Shinmera>
Hopefully it won't have to fill up again too quickly.
<p_l>
we have been dealing with full banlist for the last 5 years
<p_l>
I need to check +q list
<p_l>
but since I started using irccloud that became a bit harder
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<p_l>
Ok, I think I've got some idea how to clean remaining issues
<Bike>
thanks for all that
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<p_l>
heh, my flags don't go high enough to use the CLEAR command
<p_l>
but we should have a bit more breathing space there
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<p_l>
might need to actually invest in a channel bot more advanced than minion
<p_l>
minion: sorry
<minion>
Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sorry''.
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<Shinmera>
p_l: If you could write up what you'd need I could see about it, maybe.
<p_l>
Shinmera: for the bot?
<Shinmera>
Yes.
<p_l>
ok
<p_l>
I was thinking mostly of having something to track and "age" bans
<jasom>
proper way for having a lookup table? I found that (define-symbol-macro +foo+ (load-time-value (make-array ...) t)) generates tighter code on SBCL compared to just a defparameter. Thoughts?
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<Bike>
defparameter means it has to check the dynamic binding stack, so yeah a constant or load time value ought ot be faster
<Bike>
but if you use that in multiple places you might have multiple lookup tables
<Bike>
(which you may or may not care about)
<jasom>
I'd rather not have multiple lookup tables, but I can't figure out a way to do so without hitting the binding stack.
<Bike>
if you use an actual constant it might be coalesced
<jasom>
can I use a constant? How do I ensure it's identical between compile and run time?
<Bike>
it's an array, right? what's in it?
<jasom>
unsigned-byte 8
<jasom>
s/8/16
<Bike>
oh well that's fine then
<Bike>
you can't ensure it's "identical" because the compiler and the running image might be different, but they'll be basically the same array
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<jasom>
Are you talking about with define-constant? because that signals an error when I try it
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<Bike>
or just a literal, yeah
<Bike>
defconstant won't work because the arrays won't be eql
<Bike>
but you can just put in something so it won't try to change the constant if it's already set. think that's what the alexandria define-constant does
<Bike>
with test equalp
<jasom>
ah
<jasom>
I think I understand now
<Bike>
defconstant is kind of hard to use, unfortunately
<jasom>
yup
<jasom>
well it's easy to use for simple things like keywords and fixnums
<jasom>
alexandria:define-constant works and it's about 8% higher throughput compared to the defparameter version.
<Bike>
really! very nice.
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<Bike>
sbcl also has a "defglobal" mechanism, that's kind of like a special that can't be bound as i understand
<Bike>
but if you actually have a constant using a constant is probably best
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<jasom>
The inner loop is very tight so it's not surprising I get a speedup. Only strange thing is that it does load the constant into RAX twice in about 4 instructions despite there not being register pressure.
<jasom>
I'm guessing it generates a new cosntant for each function too because it uses a pc-relative addressing for it.