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<potatonomicon>
how could I go about writing a macro that takes its arguments like let does? that is, taking an s-expression and splitting it up so the elements can be used independently
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<stylewarning>
potatonomicon: good question
<stylewarning>
potatonomicon: the macro would just take in a list, and you'd compute how it gets split up
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<potatonomicon>
what would I use to do the splitting?
<stylewarning>
potatonomicon: look at this example implementation of LET:
<potatonomicon>
oh, wait, I see the @ infront of mapcar
<stylewarning>
yes, we need to embed it in an (and ...)
<stylewarning>
we have a list of variable names like (X Y Z ...), and we want (AND X Y Z ...)
<stylewarning>
we don't want (AND (X Y Z ...))
<stylewarning>
so we have to embed with the ,@ (comma splice) operator
<potatonomicon>
ohhh ok, so mapcar is returning each, not just one, right
<stylewarning>
correct
<potatonomicon>
or a list, whatever
<stylewarning>
(mapcar #'first '((a 1) (b 2)) ==> (A B)
<potatonomicon>
yeah
<stylewarning>
with enough parentheses :)
<potatonomicon>
thats pretty handy
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<stylewarning>
MAPCAR is pretty useful, so is ,@
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<potatonomicon>
Yeah I have used @ in other macros
<stylewarning>
,@ not @!
<stylewarning>
:)
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<potatonomicon>
well, isn't it two different operations happening
<stylewarning>
nope, just one
<potatonomicon>
expansion and unquoting
<stylewarning>
It's really one operator
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<stylewarning>
potatonomicon: but that thinking won't be harmful :)
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<potatonomicon>
Well, thanks for the help :>
<stylewarning>
potatonomicon: lmk if you have more questions
<potatonomicon>
I have quite a few functions that will use this so it sould make things a little more concise :q
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<potatonomicon>
hoy
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<aeth>
Heh. It's actually more efficient in SBCL to pass in a struct and have to redo a few things than to pass in various parts of a struct to a function. Of course it is.
<aeth>
877 bytes vs. 864 bytes in disassemble, but disassemble doesn't tell the whole story. sb-disassem:dissassemble-code-component does. 1029 vs. 1530 bytes.
<potatonomicon>
one pointer vs a lot of pointers? or does it copy
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<aeth>
If you pass a struct, it typechecks the struct. If you pass a bunch of fields from the struct, it type checks *each one you pass in*
<potatonomicon>
makes sense
<aeth>
8 parameters having to be type checked vs. 4 in this case. Making the API a lot more complicated while also making it slower.
<beach>
potatonomicon: In Common Lisp, nothing is implicitly copied.
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<jjkola>
hi
<jjkola>
is planet.lisp.org being down a known issue?
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<bendersteed>
hi everyone, I'm learning lisp and try to create a simple web app with hunchentoot
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<bendersteed>
is there a way to create handlers with the (define-easy-handler) macro for a list of objects
<beach>
Hello bendersteed. Weekends are a bit slow here. It is possible that the people with knowledge of Hunchentoot are doing other things.
<bendersteed>
it's ok, thanks for your response
<bendersteed>
in general treating macros in loop is kind of sketchy
<beach>
How so?
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<_death>
bendersteed: if the list is known prior to "run time", you can have a macro that expands to `(progn ,@list-of-define-easy-handler-forms) .. otherwise, it may be better to create your own dispatcher
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<beach>
bendersteed: In what way is "treating" macros in loop "sketchy"?
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<bendersteed>
beach: i'm not really familiar with how to treat variables etc
<beach>
If you are uncertain, just ask.
<bendersteed>
thanks, I'll try to clear a bit things by playing so that I have on-point questions
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<beach>
OK.
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<beach>
What is the state of CL-UNICODE with respect to recent versions of the Unicode standard?
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<Xach>
beach: none that i know of.
<Xach>
beach: but some portion of OTF files are TTF files with a thin wrapper, and I don't think that wrapper is difficult
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<beach>
Got it. Thanks.
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<beach>
Xach: Would you consider that to be a valid project for someone? I.e. define a protocol for accessing the information in an OpenType font by first reading the contents into memory and then calling various functions to retrieve that information?
<Xach>
beach: yes, though for my own project, i loaded only (some) metadata in memory and loaded other things on demand (with caching)
<beach>
I understand.
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<Xach>
some font files are many megabytes of raw, lightly compressed data, and loading them in memory to access only a few glyphs would be costly up front.
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<beach>
I typically ignore such issues, counting on the virtual-memory system to do a good job, on RAM being sufficiently inexpensive, and on the Common Lisp system to have a good memory allocator. This is not necessarily true for all combinations of operating system and Common Lisp implementations, but it may well be by the time such a project is finished.
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<MichaelRaskin>
I think for the OS allocator to manage caching the data from HDD well, you need to mmap the file, not just read it.
<beach>
That might be true. But that would be messy from a programming point of view. I prefer to parse the entire thing into a native data structure.
<shka_>
hello all
<beach>
On the other hand, RAM is around 10€ per GigaByte. So "many megabytes" may add up to say 0.05€.
<beach>
Hell shka.
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<beach>
For that saving to be worth the time spent on improving the memory use, There would have to be thousands of simultaneous users using several fonts that each contains "many megabytes" of data.
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<Xach>
For my use case it was worth the time savings.
<beach>
I believe you.
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<kolb>
I would chime in and say I know very well which applications are an issue on RAM.
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<kolb>
Years ago I had to retire my 900mhz 2gig ram arm notebook because I had a clojure gig and I couldn’t start the JVM. Today (4gigs) I get into swapping because of Firefox + R with a big-ish dataset + Pharo running a rather hungry app
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<pjb>
kolb: that said, you can still use lynx…
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<python476>
I have a generic question regarding programming semantics (-ish)
<python476>
i was wondering if there was a language that accepted mutable anything for local scope, but by default considered everything from outer scopes immutable
<python476>
as a safety yet speed friendly mechanism
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<python476>
(this comes from reading about rustlang a bit)
<theemacsshibe[m]>
That's a lot of languages in one question.
<python476>
so it's been tried and used a lot already ?
<theemacsshibe[m]>
I don't think immutable outer structures would speed things up a lot. Typically you pass pointers around with objects and mutating one would be just as fast as reading.
<python476>
but it's always useful to assume these aren't mutable
<python476>
you can freeze, isolate, copy, do whatever you want on the side
<python476>
(at least that's my fuzzy understanding)
<theemacsshibe[m]>
I was referencing mentioning rust, asking lispers and having python in your username.
<pjb>
python476: indeed, this is how you should consider things, when you are writing code yourself.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Yes, sometimes you will just rebind the variable and not mutate it.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Sometimes there's an edge case where you do need mutation, which is where you need it and why languages may not pick it up.
<python476>
theemacsshibe[m]: oh hehe, I couldn't find rustlang channel, and lisp being used so often for semantic exploration .. I allowed myself to ask here :)
<pjb>
python476: there's no language that ensure it, but you could write a lambda macro that would signal a warning or an error if you tried to mutate a parameter or a free variable.
<python476>
(and my nick is an unfortunate accident, cons-ider me a lisper first :)
<python476>
pjb: thanks
<python476>
i thought there would be a nickname for this kind of hygiene, something I could lookup on springer, google scholar or similar
<pjb>
in fact, since the implementation defun defmacro defmethod defgeneric probably use cl:lambda, you will have to define your own version of them too.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Maybe if you use one of those wanky pure functional languages you can get immutability.
<pjb>
you may have a look at cl-stepper for an example.
<python476>
theemacsshibe[m]: common, purely functional is nice
<drmeister>
The ECL/Clasp response? I didn't think so. That's part of what has been confusing me.
<beach>
drmeister: The second parameter being something like 'function is used only when the first parameter is a name, and not an object.
<drmeister>
beach: Is that so that if there is a function and say a compiler macro with the same name - you can get the function docstring?
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<beach>
drmeister: More generally, if the first thing is a name, you need to say whether you want its definition as a function, as a class, as a variable, etc.
<beach>
drmeister: Look at the second method signature.
<beach>
drmeister: If the first argument is a function and the second argument is the symbol FUNCTION, then this method applies.
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<beach>
Now, it doesn't say that the same thing will be returned by this method as what is returned by the first one, but that seems a reasonable thing to do.
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<drmeister>
Ok.
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<python476>
drmeister: are you the spirolygomer researcher
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<drmeister>
Indeed I am
<python476>
well hello
<python476>
enjoyed your talks (more for the biochem side than the lisp one even though it was cool too)
<drmeister>
As of a few weeks ago it's official - I'm a "Molecular LEGO" researcher.
<drmeister>
On the right is Sir Fraser Stoddard, 2016 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry.
<python476>
completely off the cool-title chart
<python476>
thanks, I have zero knowledge about people in chemistry
<python476>
(even though the name kinda rings a bell)
<drmeister>
He coined the term in the '80s and almost got sued by Lego Corp.
<drmeister>
Rather he got threatened by them in the '80s.
<python476>
a clear marketing team error
<drmeister>
Yeah - hopefully they are more enlightened these days.
<drmeister>
Anyway - I'm glad you enjoyed the presentation.
<python476>
a protein ~repl, hard not to be
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<drmeister>
I'd expand that to - any molecule repl.
<python476>
hehe indeed
<drmeister>
Things are taking off - we got a lot of grant funding in the last couple of months and I'm starting a company.
<drmeister>
I'll need Common Lisp programmers with chemistry knowlege.
<drmeister>
knowledge
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<python476>
I don't want to divert #lisp much more, but just in case https://www.irif.fr/users/nschaban/index <= makes dna folding computation, when I saw a tiny conf with him, couldn't stop thinking about you
<python476>
drmeister: where are you based ? US ?
<drmeister>
Philadelphia, PA, USA
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<python476>
after quantum computer, protein scaffolds.. lisp is coming back by the deep end
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<drmeister>
Chemistry is fundamental and universal - the language that works with it should be as fundamental.
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<python476>
warning, lambda calculist may come and rant
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<shka_>
so, I have set's of aggregation operations, groupping operations and so one, ala SQL
<shka_>
i can do stuff like (average (group-by data #'first))
<shka_>
and it is lazy evaluated and stuff
<shka_>
it works
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<shka_>
but my implementation seems to be more complicated then it should be
<shka_>
i construct graph of 'aggregator' objects and each element in range flows trough it
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<shka_>
sometimes multiple iterations are required to finish the job
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<shka_>
i was wondering if anyone here worked on something like this, and how he approached this problem
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<drmeister>
How does one determine if a lisp stream (that is the reading end of a pipe) has data available for reading?
<drmeister>
Is it cl:peek?
<drmeister>
peek-char
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<jackdaniel>
drmeister: not so easy
<jackdaniel>
if you open pipe with blocking (default), if there is nothing in the pipe your thread will hang waiting for io
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<jackdaniel>
if you open pipe without blocking (among other gothas) if there is no input you'll have EOF
<jackdaniel>
I was working on that lately in ECL, you may check out these last changes (in C code)
<jackdaniel>
I've resigned of using peek-char in listen for that very reason
<drmeister>
Ok - I have a parent process and I forked a child. The child is writing output to a stream that the parent has the other end to - I'd like to know when characters are available so that I can have the parent read those characters and keep the pipe buffer from overfilling. This can't be blocking because I have many children to deal with.
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<jackdaniel>
no, for different reason – you have to use peek-byte
<drmeister>
peek-byte? Is that an ECL thing?
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<jackdaniel>
no, ECL doesn't have it implemented at all
<jackdaniel>
it is rather an ommision in the spec
<jackdaniel>
omission* ?
<jackdaniel>
I'm just saying, that working with fifo pipes has some gotchas.
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<jeosol>
morning guys
<beach>
Hello jeosol.
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<jeosol>
what CL db ORM do you guys use?
<jackdaniel>
many people will tell you, that whole ORM concept is a misunderstanding :-)
<jeosol>
I recently started looking at mito for the postgresql example (movie database). I have a table actor which has a column actor-id in the imported table; naturally this should the pk. I have a mismatch of columns on the lisp side and actual table. how to deal with this?
<jeosol>
jackdaniel? Really?
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: sure, it is nothing else but transpilation. usually database languages are declarative, while oop is a different paradigm
<jackdaniel>
transpiling between languages of different paradigm may lead to a disaster
<jackdaniel>
(as in: software which has a terrible performance and bugs)
<jeosol>
Oh, I have used clsql in the past but I have heard complaints against it. The thing is I am using a 'defmodel' type macro that given creates a bunch of functions to access columns, search query, etc for a given table, as in django tables
<jeosol>
jackdaniel: ok, I see your point
<jeosol>
I am hoping it is not too much headache overall, and want something, some model, that is manageable
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<MichaelRaskin>
Defining a cross-cutting data schema and generating some parts of CLSQL FDML code (and hand-writing some parts) worked well for me.
<jeosol>
MichaelRaskin: So you use clsql more often?
<MichaelRaskin>
Just not its OODDL/OODML
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<jeosol>
I did like and enjoy using CLSQL, but have seen complaints about bit-rot, security, etc
<MichaelRaskin>
CLSQL FDML/FDDL — yes
<jeosol>
ok, I see.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I only used it with CLSQL and PostgreSQL
<MichaelRaskin>
Oops
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<MichaelRaskin>
SQLite and PostgreSQL
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess bitrot might be worse for other backends…
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<jeosol>
I use mostly Postgresql
<MichaelRaskin>
Security… well, I think CLSQL has sane enough escaping.
<pfdietz>
Downloaded Allegro CL 10.1 free version. Haven't run the random tester on Allegro in years.
<MichaelRaskin>
You might need to define your own query fragments for advanced queries, and there you'd better make sure you do use CLSQL escaping facilities for input parameters
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<jeosol>
MichaelRaskin: thanks for the info. May need to return back. Yes, I do use other advanced queries.
<jeosol>
MichaelRaskin: But recently, because I can have many tables, I am trying to use some macro to automatically define a bunch of functions that I'll normally need for each table.
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, that sounds natural
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<jeosol>
MichaelRaskin: Thanks Mike
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<jeosol>
anyone working with machine learning/ai type problems in lisp? I have discussed on here about picking up CLML library but still resolving licence related issues with former maintainers/owners. May also need to set up a small task force, not like a committee through
<jeosol>
I have one potential member in jmercoursis(?)
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<comborico1611>
jeosol: I'm just a newb, but well wishes for you AI pursuits.
<jeosol>
what do you mean?
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<jeosol>
CLOS question here: I am writing defmethods that prints object based on a query from a db table, e.g., (defmethod print-actor ((obj actor)) ...) (defmethod print-actor ((objs list)) ..) Somethings, a query returns nil, and I get an error, is there is way to cater for the latter case
<pjb>
jeosol: (if result (do-something result) (do-something-else))
<jeosol>
pjb: I was asking in the context of different defmethods ...
<sjl>
_death: huh, TIL. I thought it was just a type, not a full class. neat.
<pjb>
I assumeL (defmethod print-actor ((obj list)) (let ((result (query-list obj))) (if result (do-something result) (do-something-else))))
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<pjb>
But if you want to call print-actor with NIL and not call query-list in that case, then (if obj (query-non-empty-list obj) (query-nil))
<pjb>
I mean, why would NIL be not something to be queried from the database too?
<jeosol>
_death: defining a method on null also worked
<jeosol>
_death: domo arigato
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<jeosol>
pjb: sorryI didn't method it, for the correct case, the query return as list of objects (I am using some ORM)
<pjb>
Notice that if you specialize a generic function on NULL, then specialize it also on CONS, otherwise call-next-method may call the method on LIST!
<pjb>
Call Precedent List: null, symbol, list, sequence, t
<jeosol>
so I am calling the print-actor defmethod on the out from the query
<jeosol>
pjb: thanks for that info
<pjb>
ok.
<jeosol>
*out -> results
<pjb>
In those cases I like to use defgeneric to keep all the methods together: (defgeneric print-actor (obj) (:method ((obj null)) 'foo) (:method ((obj cons)) 'bar))
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<jeosol>
pjb: thanks.
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<jeosol>
I guess that is one approach to organizing the defmethods, I wrote them separately initially.
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<aeth>
I would love to be able to force TCO and fast trig functions via (declare (optimize ...)). There are probably a few more legit optimizations that probably should be done that way.
<on_ion>
hmm
<aeth>
We were talking about this in the context of things that would be nice in a new revision of the spec a couple of days ago but I just realized that (declare (optimize (whatever ...))) doesn't have the issues of (declare (whatever ...)), i.e. the latter could conflict with user-defined types so adding them isn't a good idea
<aeth>
On the subject of fast trig: Lots of people probably hate my code because I do (speed 3) anywhere where there is trig because I want fast trig rather than coerce-to-double-first trig that (iirc) SBCL does below speed 3. And forcing TCO is kinda obvious. For one, I could get rid of most of the cl-scheme runtime right there.
<on_ion>
but (safe 3) == safety
<on_ion>
i dont see how forcing speed for code that requires speed could inspire hate from another programmer
<on_ion>
i dont see a way to retrieve the currently enforced value of declare =)
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<aeth>
Well, the problem is that there are certain desirable optimizations, particularly around numbers where you want to keep things running the same everywhere if possible.
<aeth>
And, also, of course, the whole TCO thing.
<aeth>
There are probably a few more than I'm not aware of.
<aeth>
You could go the opposite extreme or something and want the compiler to turn (* 0f0 some-float) into 0f0 even though that's not totally accurate.
<on_ion>
hmm. implementations are free to define their own. perhaps you could add or modify things, to allow something like (declare (speed aeth_numbers)) ^_
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<aeth>
on_ion: Implementations are absolutely free to define their own, but without SBCL and CCL at a minimum buying into the idea, nothing will happen
<on_ion>
no i mean make your own.
<on_ion>
"implementations are free to... " --> so are users also free to ...
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<aeth>
How would you define your own without modifying the implementation?
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<aeth>
Also, it looks like it's mandated to have 0-3 there. So even for things that could just be a t/nil flag, you'd have to do something with various number levels
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<on_ion>
aeth: i thought CL implementations are fully-modifyable ?
<on_ion>
the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language
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