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<ircquestion>
Is lisp a religon?
<ircquestion>
Like that emacs?
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<Bike>
no, it's just that we computer people only dimly realize we get worked up about things that aren't really worth it, and compare it to religion to make ourselves feel smart
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
if you say it's a religion, it's a religion
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<vtomole_>
What is the machine codethat is generated by disassemble in SBCL?
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<karlosz>
your cpu's native instruction set
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<vtomole>
Oh i see I was just confused cause the 'Break' instruction is not in x86_64.. i don't think? "(disassemble '(lambda (x) (* x x)))" generates "BREAK 16" as the last instruction.
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<TMA>
SWIG CFFI generation is not that good unfortunately
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<p_l>
good enough to start
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<jmercouris>
So, I'm trying to write a survey collection programmer, trying to think of how to persist the data
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<jmercouris>
s/programmer/program
<jmercouris>
should I write to CSV? should I write to a database?
<jmercouris>
I am thinking of collect three types of data, boolean, string, and integer
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<_death>
sqlite..
<jmercouris>
yeah, sure sqlite is fine, but what would the table structure look like
<jmercouris>
I can't imagine a generalizable scheme
<jmercouris>
at least not without using a central table called like "survey" and it has some ID then another table related to it which has responsees
<jmercouris>
but then the only good way to actually view the data is to export it anyway
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<schweers>
jmercouris: Does your data fit in ram? if so, you can just write sexps to a file.
<jmercouris>
schweers: data fits in ram yes, but it is part of a webapp, so I don't want to keep things in memory / connect to a repl
<jmercouris>
I'd prefer to persist to disk
<jmercouris>
of course I could always re-persist all the sexp on every write
<schweers>
which is why I said write sexps to a file.
<jmercouris>
when I say write I mean pushing to a list of survey responses or something
<schweers>
ah, okay, now I understand
<schweers>
well, then why not sqlite?
<schweers>
seems to be a reasonable way to deal with this sort of problem
<jmercouris>
yeah, but I like your SEXP idea more actually
<jmercouris>
I don't think it would be so unbelievably painful to just keep writing to disk
<jmercouris>
I don't expect more than 10 survey responses anyway
<schweers>
in total?
<jmercouris>
in a day
<jmercouris>
I hope to collect around 100 survey responses
<jmercouris>
so the data will not be large at all
<schweers>
sounds like an elisp macro may be fast enough :D
<schweers>
seems like it fits in a block per survey ;)
<jmercouris>
it would be, if I could just email the survey out to people, but I would like a website for them to be able to anonymously respond
<schweers>
err, per response
<schweers>
or just mmap a file and write directly to memory via CFFI :-P
<jmercouris>
sure, why not :D
<schweers>
one of the reasons I like lisp and its modern implementations so much: you can program at really high levels, but also muck about with stuff like that :)
<pierpal>
looks like a good case for a prevalence db. there's at least one implementation in cl, which I never tried, though
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<schweers>
Just for the record: there are also kyotocabinet bindings for lisp
<schweers>
but they are broken in some ways: getting the size of the store is not implemented, for instance
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<schweers>
hm, interesting
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<schweers>
looks a bit like sql for graphs
<schweers>
you convinced me: it may be worth looking at, should the need arise
<schweers>
but I don’t see how it relates to your question and kyotocabinet
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<jmercouris>
well, it's a really good key/value store
<jmercouris>
it's not purely a graph database
<schweers>
I assume that using it from a non-jvm process involves IPC of some sorts
<schweers>
which can be bad for performance, depending on what you do
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<jmercouris>
it's not so bad
<jmercouris>
I've used it from python with pretty good success
<jmercouris>
most of the time cost is in the actual database operations rather than the IPC
<jmercouris>
you do most of your logic in Cypher rather than handling it piecemeal and processing it in another language
<jmercouris>
so that reduces the overhead of information flow between the database and the program
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<schweers>
jmercouris: I guess you’re right, if you use that part of it. I was concerned about using it as a plain old key/value store.
<schweers>
And if the only thing you do is put values in and retrieve them and do that alot, you may run into performance issues. The question is of course: are you using the right tool for the job, if that is all you need?
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<beach>
Good afternoon everyone!
<Bike>
heyo.
<beach>
Great, when I am not on #lisp all the time, this is also when the tunes.org logs seem to be having problems.
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<Murii>
Can I delete an index from a vector?
<loke>
Murii: No.
<beach>
No.
<loke>
Well, you can manually rearrange it.
<Murii>
right
<Murii>
okay :)
<beach>
Murii: Then it would not be a vector. It would be an "editable sequence".
<beach>
Or at least that's what I call it in my book.
<Murii>
thought so too but wanted to be 100% sure
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<beach>
Murii: But you can use Flexichain, a library that implements a version of editable sequences.
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<Murii>
beach- what about hashmaps?
<Murii>
there it makes sense to be able to remove a key,right?
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<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
But that is non a sequence like a vector is. But maybe you don't need that.
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<Murii>
yes, I know that
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<shka>
well, you kinda can, but that would be linear time depending on size of the vector
<shka>
and vector would need to have fill-pointer
<shka>
or else you have to copy
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<beach>
Well, if it doesn't matter whether it is a sequence, you can do it in constant time, at least amortized. You can copy the last element to the place you want to delete, and then "shorten" the vector by moving the fill pointer.
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<shka>
yes
<shka>
but you will not have order
<beach>
That's what I meant by it not being a sequence. Something that Murii seemed to suggest by asking about the hash map.
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<shka>
ah, ok
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<jmercouris>
schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
<jmercouris>
schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
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<pjb>
Murii: you can do: (let ((v (vector 1 2 3 4 5)) (i 2)) (vector-delete (aref v i) v :start i :end (1+ i))) #| --> #(1 2 4 5) |#
<sjl>
Note that the canonical name of a system is a string, conventionally lowercase. A system name can also be specified as a symbol (including a keyword), in which case its symbol-name is taken and lowercased. The name must be a suitable value for the :name initarg to make-pathname in whatever filesystem the system is to be found.
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<jmercouris>
Right, seems like it should give at least a warning when an uppercase system name is used
<pjb>
So the short answer is don't name the file with mixed case. Rename it System.asd. Also, note how funny Apple developers are: you cannot mv System.asd system.asd because there's already a file named system.asd (it's System.asd).
<pjb>
So: mv System.asd s && mv s system.asd
<sjl>
jmercouris: ASDF can't know whether you uppercase the symbol by the time the reader gets done with it
<jmercouris>
yeah, I've noted that, it is a little annoying having to rename the file twice
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<sjl>
(assuming you're using the default readtable-case)
<jmercouris>
fair enough
<jmercouris>
are there any linter tools in lisp? as standalone tools to statitically inspect lisp?
<jmercouris>
without necessarily loading the code into a lisp image, but just studying it as an intermediate representation, an AST or something
<jmercouris>
not sure if I am explaining what I am thinking correctly
<pjb>
There's an old linter tool, yes.
<Xach>
lisp-critic does some simple analysis
<sjl>
jmercouris: basically: ASDF gets a system name of :SYSTEM, says "this is a symbol, but system names are strings, so I'll (string-downcase (symbol-name ...)) it, and look up `system.asd`"
<phoe>
jmercouris: the best linter for Common Lisp code is your compiler. Read all the warnings and notes it produces for you.
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<pjb>
(incf phoe)
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<sjl>
Yeah, that gets you pretty far
<jmercouris>
I'm not saying I just ignore warnings and notes :D
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<phoe>
jmercouris: yes, but you mean static analysis. It isn't really something done often in Lisp except for debugging purposes (when you have code walkers and such).
<phoe>
The most advanced Common Lisp code analysis tool that is able to produce the most useful information about your code is your compiler. No other CL tool will be as complete as it is.
<phoe>
s/it is/the compilers are
<phoe>
Generally, you can't static-analyze Lisp code without doing all the work that a compiler does, because we have a Turing-complete reader, a Turing-complete macroexpander, and a Turing-complete compiler.
<phoe>
That you can program using reader macros, (usual) macros, and compiler macros.
<phoe>
And once your static analysis tool does all of that work, it's not a static analysis tool anymore. It's a compiler.
<knobo>
One thing that is frustrating with local-time, is day-of-week starts from 0 which means sunday.
<phoe>
knobo: the only more frustrating thing I could imagine is 0 meaning Monday.
<flip214>
knobo: but that's okay, because day 1 is monday - and day 7 would be sunday again....
<_death>
week starts on Sunday here ;)
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<flip214>
"Monday begin on Saturday" - a great book!
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<knobo>
if you (adjust-timestamp some-tuesday (offset :day-of-week) day) where day is :monday or :sunday, then you get two different week numbers.
<knobo>
If you adjust :day-of-week, then week number should be the same. not different.
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<knobo>
I mean (adjust-timestamp some-tuesday (offset :day-of-week day))
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<knobo>
Help me understand how that is a great idea, please.
<_death>
flip214: the point (alphabetical order instead of likelihood-of-use order) is ok, but the consequence seems a bit theoretical.. I don't remember ever seeing use of %G in the wild
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<_death>
and of course alphabetical order is useful for reference and when the manpage comes in print..
<jmercouris>
please see the examples at the bottom of the link
<jmercouris>
you can play around with them to get a feel
<comborico1611>
jmercouris: Oh yes, I'm familiar with those tree-walking terms.
<comborico1611>
Thanks, though!
<jmercouris>
Seems like you are progressing well then, awesome!
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<pjb>
comborico1611: the other names are more interesting: mapc mapcar mapcan mapl maplist mapcon; mapc and mapl are like mapcar and maplist, but they return the first list argument, not consing a new list. mapcan and mapcon concatenate resulting lists (using nconc, thus mutating those result lists, stitching them together). Of course, the difference between the first set and the second set is that the first set works on the elements
<pjb>
lists, while the second set works on the lists and successive rest*.
<pjb>
comborico1611: of course, the mere MAP function is also nice, since it can work on sequences in general: (map 'vector (function list) '(a b c) #(1 2 3) "!:.") #| --> #((a 1 #\!) (b 2 #\:) (c 3 #\.)) |#
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<jmercouris>
outside of the template language within caveman, what's the preferred way of generating HTML?
<jmercouris>
I'm looking for something like weblocks with-html
<jmercouris>
I see cl-who within the readme...
<jmercouris>
maybe I'm overthinking it, perhaps I should just use that to serialize
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<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: check out spinneret from ruricolist
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: there's no "preferred way" really, but spinneret I liked
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: what do you mean "serialize"? if you want to create JSON you can use "jonathan" (or other JSON libs); if you want to "serialize" in the strict sense, that is, convert lisp objects to byte arrays, take a look at "conspack" (cl-conspack)
<jmercouris>
defunkydrummer: I mean that the lisp objects should have a standard html presentation
<jmercouris>
and that when outputting them to html, they should conform to this presentation
<jmercouris>
like a generic function could be (serialize-to-html) and it could specialize on the type of element
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<jmercouris>
does that make sense?
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: do you mean you want to convert certain lisp objects to html form, so they can be displayed?
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: if they are CLOS objects, you can perhaps define a generic function to-html(o), and implement it for all the classes you want to convert to HTML; the actual HTML creation can be done with spinneret
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: etc (there are many many ways of course)
<jmercouris>
defunkydrummer: Yes, I mean that, and I was also thinking about what you are describing
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<jmercouris>
each widget should be responsible for serializing itself
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<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: take a look at the documentation of spinneret, it's really easy to use
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: also note that caveman is only one in many web frameworks for CL, there's also UCW (uncommon web), reblocks (rewrite of weblocks), lucerne, etc
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: or you can just shun frameworks altogether and write directly for an HTTP server lib like hunchentoot, Woo, teepeedee2, etc
<jmercouris>
defunkydrummer: I did spend a lot of time looking for Cl web frameworks and didn't come up with those, thanks for the info
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: or you can use Clack and Lack which are abstraction layers on top of web servers, so your application can run over any of the aforementioned servers
<jmercouris>
Yeah, I'm not trying to do anything super crazy
<jmercouris>
just trying to make some server software, so having a framework can save a lot of time
<jmercouris>
s/server/survey
<defunkydrummer>
jmercouris: and if what you are doing is just a minimal proof of concept, take a look at my own mini-framework "ninglex" which is basically fukamachi's "ningle" with some missing pieces on top
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<jmercouris>
defunkydrummer: it's tricky designing a web framework isn't it, balancing which features and opinions to make something usable
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<jmercouris>
anyways, cool stuff, I've starred your repository to take a deeper look later, thanks
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