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<pierpa>
could have been a sleepy cat
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* vsync
peeks his head up
<vsync>
so who went to ELS and was it fun?
<Bike>
yeah
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<rme>
I think it was a great success.
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<p_l>
it was great fun
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* vsync
wanted to go so bad
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<vsync>
almost grabbed a plane ticket at the last minute even but just work craziness
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<White_Flame>
hmm, when I re-evaluate my dying function without changes, it stops crashing
<White_Flame>
fun
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<p_l>
vsync: if you want to go, best is to make reservations *now*, or ASAP, so you have ready-made excuse for a whole year of planning meetings
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<p_l>
The only reason I ended up going was that someone bothered me about tickets for so long that I ended up buying the plane tickets in january
<vsync>
haha
* vsync
does not need to be on more committees
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<rme>
April 1st and 2nd, 2019, Genoa, Italy. Put it on your calendar.
<p_l>
rme: I might have verified that free PPC VMs for CCL might be still available... :D
<p_l>
vsync: well, you don't have to be on any committee, just saying that it gives you a pre-baked reason to go :P
<rme>
p_l: I'll be interested to know. I'm sure there's a fair amount of PPC bitrot, but maybe resurrecting the port wouldn't be too terribly difficult.
<rme>
holy smokes, that conference hotel is expensive!
<p_l>
rme: Raptor Computing Systems is getting more and more hardware free, and VMs are something they can provide quite easily (they are even building their own cloud/VPS setup)
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<p_l>
rme: right people to talk with would tpearson on #talos-workstation, here on freenode
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<pierpa>
btw, who are the hosts in Genoa? I don't know of any lispers up there
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<rme>
It's being co-located with the conference <Programming> 2019.
<defunkydrummer>
will next year's Lisp conference be in Genova, Italy?
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<pierpa>
yes
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<pierpa>
'morning
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<ealfonso>
I'm on a relatively old debian and I'm getting this quicklisp error when loading a dependency cffi-toolchain https://pastebin.com/HTyd7PfS my ql is recent: "2017-03-06", installed directly and not via apt-get. this doesn't happen on a newer system. any idea why or what I may need to update?
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<defunkydrummer>
good morning dear RS
<defunkydrummer>
ealfonso: if the error is on UIOP then perhaps the ASDF version you have is old... ?
<defunkydrummer>
UIOP is part of ASDF
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<PuercoPop>
ealfonso: did you install sbcl using apt-get?
<defunkydrummer>
holy shit, it's PuercoPop online, this is my lucky day
<loke>
Hello PuercoPop
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<PuercoPop>
Oi defunkydrummer, yeah I fixed my irc bouncer last week ^_^
<PuercoPop>
hi loke
<ealfonso>
PuercoPop yes, SBCL 1.2.4.debian. This doesn't seem to happen on SBCL 1.3.14.debian. I'll try upgrading
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<PuercoPop>
ealfonso: don't install from debian. It is really old. Use whatever SBCL apt-get installed to bootstrap SBCL from source. You just have to run sh make.sh --prefix=/usr/local --fancy and uninstall the APT version before you do the sudo make install
<PuercoPop>
also make sure that you haven't pulled any libraries with apt-get. They are bound to give you unnecessary trouble
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<defunkydrummer>
ealfonso: Or, if you are a lazy noobie as me, you can just download and install Portacle, and everything will work smoothly from the get go
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<ealfonso>
defunkydrummer thanks. it takes a while to compile
<ealfonso>
defunkydrummer especially on my cheap slow VPS
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<pfdietz>
ealfonso: you asked what package local nicknames were.
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<defunkydrummer>
pfdietz: i want to know too; i thought package nicknames applied over the whole system
<pfdietz>
Package local nicknames are an extension to Common Lisp that help solve the package name & nickname collision problem.
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<pfdietz>
Package names are a global space, and if you look at quicklisp (for example) there are lots of systems there that are incompatible because of name collisions.
<pfdietz>
What package local nicknames do is provide a separate namespace within each package.
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<pfdietz>
These names are active only when *PACKAGE* is bound to that particular package.
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<pfdietz>
(defpackage "FOO" (:local-nicknames ("B" "BAR")) ...) means that when *PACKAGE* is bound to the FOO package, one can use B as a nickname for BAR.
<defunkydrummer>
pfdietz: allright, but how portable is that? I know Allegro CL practically solves all package problems, but what about the other impls ?
<pfdietz>
Those short nicknames no longer pollute the global package namespace. The global package names can be made large and unlikely to collide.
<pfdietz>
Several implementations support PLNs: SBCL, ECL, ABCL. CCL needs to add them. I don't know about the commercial lisps.
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<defunkydrummer>
pfdietz: thanks for this info, i think it will help me for what i'm writing right now, my package names are loooooooong
<pfdietz>
I may have gotten the exact syntax in the defpackage there wrong; look at the sbcl manual.
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<defunkydrummer>
will do.
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<ealfonso>
PuercoPop btw, thanks, it worked. for some reason sudo make install didn't provide an executable in my PATH, so I had to manually link run-sbcl.sh I also used apt-get to install buildapp, it also pulled sbcl again, which I manually removed
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<defunkydrummer>
PuercoPop went to sleep, it's 11:48pm in our country
<defunkydrummer>
glad to see you got it working
<ealfonso>
pfdietz thanks. I didn't remember I had asked about it. I will probably remember it once I run into a naming conflict.
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<ealfonso>
defunkydrummer (thanks)
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<kqr>
not sure if this is the right place to ask but I'll go: does anyone know to what extend CLX supports Xinput 2? specifically, I'm interested in the ability to grab keys on only a specific device
<kqr>
haven't seen this mentioned yet
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<beach>
kqr: You can ask in #clim. jackdaniel is one of the CLX maintainers, and he hangs out there.
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<kqr>
beach, thanks, will do!
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<beach>
kqr: It might be a bit early for him though.
<kqr>
oh don't worry, it's a bit early for me too :)
<beach>
Heh.
<kqr>
by the way, what's the take on picolisp? I read about it last night and it seems a little like "the C of lisps" in that it is aimed at being simple to implement, reasonably high performance, and with virtually no safety checks
<beach>
Is picolisp an implementation of Common Lisp?
<beach>
As I recall, it is not.
<beach>
But my memory is not great.
<kqr>
picolisp is not an implementation of common lisp
<kqr>
it's quite different in many ways
<beach>
Then it's off topic.
<kqr>
oh sorry. didn't read the topic, only the channel name
<kqr>
well, I did read the topic at some point, but that was some time ago
<beach>
Yea, you are not the only one. Don't worry about it.
<beach>
Just saying.
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<White_Flame>
kqr: ##lisp (as opposed to #lisp) is for the general Lisp family
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<beach>
Oh, right. I forgot to mention that.
<kqr>
ah, that makes sense given how freenode namespaces things
<kqr>
which I always forget..
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<knobo>
machine-instance is not enough for me to make slime-create-filename-translator do what I want.
<knobo>
I'd like the full path too.
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<blep-on-external>
the other case uses the symbol `otherwise`
<phoe>
xificurC: (member t)?
<phoe>
if you want a type that that is matched only by the symbol T then it should do
<xificurC>
phoe: yeah, closest I got is (eql t)
<phoe>
or rather (eql t)
<phoe>
yes, that's the proper one here since (member t) is equivalent to (eql t)
<xificurC>
ok, thanks
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<dim>
hi there!
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<blep-on-external>
hi
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<Younder>
I'd forgotten what a pin it is to move..
<Younder>
pain
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<Xach>
if you pin it, it does not move
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<beach>
In case someone is interested, I have improved the slides for my talk on choosing a programming language: http://metamodular.com/choosing-a-language.pdf In particular, I now have several pairs of slides where the first one asks the audience for examples of languages and the second gives a list of examples. If anyone has the time to verify that I am not making incorrect claims, I would appreciate it.
<beach>
It is a bit related to Common Lisp, because I try to inform the audience about some misconceptions with respect to dynamic languages in general and Common Lisp in particular.
<beach>
And, of course, I mention Common Lisp many times.
<beach>
In particular, I advise the use of a single dynamic language for an application, rather than the combination of a static language and a "scripting language".
<beach>
The talk will be given to a consulting company on May 15, so there is still time for more improvements.
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<fe[nl]ix>
beach: Forth is untyped as well, if you like
<beach>
Yes, good, thanks.
<jmercouris>
I have some critique, not related to the validity of the topic if you are interested
<jmercouris>
but rather than what makes a good presentation
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<beach>
Go ahead.
<jmercouris>
1. Too much text on several slides
<beach>
Yeah, I know. :(
<jmercouris>
2. Color scheme is terrible and distracting, simple black and white would be fine
<beach>
I'll try to fix it.
<beach>
OK.
<jmercouris>
3. The speech overview is not adhered to within the slides
<jmercouris>
overview says that "Programming language characteristics" will be first
<beach>
I see, yes.
<jmercouris>
yet, the slide immediately thereafter is "How the choice is often made"
<jmercouris>
secondly, the audience has no reason to care about the topic
<jmercouris>
really, the first thing you should introduce to them is a reason why they should listen to you
<jmercouris>
what will you give them in this presentation
<beach>
All good points. I'll try to fix as many as possible before the talk.
<beach>
Thanks.
<jmercouris>
maybe a better title might be "Choosing a better language for better results"
<jmercouris>
or something like that
<jmercouris>
and then you must make it extremely concrete and describe to them exactly *HOW* the choice in language will result in the purported benefits
<beach>
The title has been announced, so I don't think I'll change that for this particular event.
<jmercouris>
Well, you may still have a "Motivation" slide after the title slide with this information
<jdz>
beach: You don't mention JavaScript anywhere, but I think it is a good example for many categories (dynamic typing, automatic memory manager, has a standard (a few), very good runtimes from many vendors (Google, Apple, Mozilla)).
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<beach>
jdz: yes, good point. Especially since it is so popular now.
<jmercouris>
I think there's a lot of good stuff in here
<jdz>
Exactly.
<beach>
I goto run, but I'll be back later, and I'll read the logs.
<jmercouris>
best of luck with the presentation :)
<beach>
Thanks again to everyone.
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<shka>
beach: why won't you add Atom/RSS feed to your webpage? :-(
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<fe[nl]ix>
beach: there's at least one static language where you can add type checks or asserts which will can be elided by the compiler, or end up being executed at runtime: Ada
<fe[nl]ix>
I suspect that other languages that have design-by-contract features behave the same, e.g. Eiffel
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<Bike>
is there any chance we can put a space in the topic between the log links? both clients i use don't treat the link correctly
<dim>
beach: you're not mentioning (void) and (void *) in C when assigning it to the different dimensions you're choosing (static, dynamic, strong/weak, etc) for the typing system, and I think it's quite an important notion that blurries everything there
<dim>
beach: more general comment about your presentation, your slides look like very good presenter notes, and require way too much thinking from the audience, I guess you're used to having the responsibity to make students/audience think by themselves rather than delivering an opinionated view of the world
<fe[nl]ix>
:D
<phoe>
beach: for slide 7, you could perhaps mention different implementations of the C standard library.
<dim>
beach: in my opinion each of your slide should have a single notion/concept written on it, big font, center (vertical&horizontal) of the screen, and your presentation is missing “recap” points with like a matrix or at least 2-column arrays to summarize your points
<fe[nl]ix>
slide 32: one problem is that the only CL that has a runtime with a modern GC is ABCL/JVM
<Xach>
Would you consider the result of (union '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) to be constant data on which SORT should not be called?
<Xach>
My perhaps unfounded expectation was that UNION would return a fresh list in that circumstance.
<phoe>
Xach: it does not say that it returns a fresh list.
<Xach>
Indeed it doesn't.
<phoe>
only NUNION kinda does, because it is destructive anyway.
<Bike>
union says the result could be eq to one of the arguments in the trivial case, so i guess constant folding isn't a completely absurd proposition
<phoe>
so the result shares structure with the arguments
<Bike>
oh, like that. right.
<Xach>
phoe: i find that even more surprising
<phoe>
Xach: why?
<Xach>
I would not expect UNION to clobber the cdr chain of its arguments.
<Xach>
Oh, but it doesn't.
<Bike>
yeah it just throws the whole thing in.
<phoe>
copying the whole list doesn't make sense to me for an union operation, either
<Xach>
Ok, the fact that the tail could be a constant makes the behavior more intuitive to me.
<phoe>
Xach: either LIST-1 or LIST-2 may be constant
<phoe>
or both can be
<Xach>
phoe: it's the "tainting" of the result with respect to "don't modify it" that puzzled me, but I'm not puzzled any more.
<phoe>
Xach: thou hast now gained insight into the ways of the union
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<Xach>
My next thought was that having duplicate elements would make it modify the lists to remove duplicates, hence making a fresh tail. But: If either list-1 or list-2 has duplicate entries within it, the redundant entries might or might not appear in the result.
<Xach>
only duplicates across lists are considered
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<Xach>
I can feel myself inspired to create a LispTip!!
<Xach>
It feels justified in hindsight, but I really did not expect that you should not modify the results of UNION.
<Xach>
Maybe I made too many assumptions based on the presence of nunion.
<phoe>
Xach: you are always permitted to modify the result of NUNION
<phoe>
because either you gave non-constant arguments to NUNION and everything is correct or you are already in undefined behaviour so you can do anything anyway
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<Xach>
anything!
<phoe>
Xach: anything, yes!
* Xach
goes mad with possibility
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<Xof>
you go mad over nunion and not over our awesome finite state machine method combination?
<Xach>
addsub: there's slitch, but it is a little old now
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<Xach>
it is ipv4 for cmucl, i think.
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<jdz>
shka: usocket allows one to send packets, but these libraries are for use with raw sockets, and for composing the contents under user control.
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<Xach>
the author of slitch has done a few more things with networking since then
<jdz>
shka: one use case is to generate semi-random-valid packets and test network devices.
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<shka>
well, ok you can construct PACKET OF DOOM
<shka>
that is legitimate reason to use such stack, i must admit
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<beach>
shka: I am not adding Atom/RSS because I don't know how to, and I don't know what it is useful for.
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<DemolitionMan>
hi
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Thanks for the Ada suggestion.
<beach>
Hello DemolitionMan.
<shka>
beach: Atom or RSS is basicly automatic notification stream for web
<beach>
shka: Thanks.
<DemolitionMan>
is there any cl-prometheus user? I need to understand how to render sensors data with timestamp
<shka>
so user can subscribe and they can be notified when there is new post on blog or some sort of update
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<beach>
dim: void and void* are good suggestions. Thanks. I'll try to work them in.
<shka>
majority of web frameworks have some sort of support for that, but you webpage seems to static and hand written html
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<beach>
shka: Web stuff is one area I have not had the patience to dig into.
<shka>
well, that's ok
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<beach>
dim: I think part of why I was welcomed back is that I make them think. They especially told me last time that they were surprised (in a positive way) that I was not trying to sell them a particular tool or technique.
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<shka>
heh, guy on stackoverflow suggest generating webpage out of RSS stream instead of other way around
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<shka>
this is actually kinda neat idea
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<phoe>
shka: you just reinvented the RSS reader
<beach>
phoe: Why is the C library a good example?
<shka>
phoe: well, people expect to see webpage
<phoe>
beach: I thought that the functions exported by the standard C library are standardized, but each C standard library implements it in its own way.
<phoe>
So there's the difference between the standard and the implementation.
<shka>
hm
<phoe>
Same goes for the compiler; the C that is the source code is standardized, but each C compiler implements turning that source code into machine formats differently.
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Yes, that is definitely a problem. But since I am not mentioning Common Lisp explicitly, I don't think it is a problem.
<beach>
This crowd is very likely programming in C# or Java. Perhaps some in C++.
<phoe>
beach: this is also why I thought that using C compiler/stdlib as an example would be a good idea.
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<shka>
well, C++ or C at least have portable standard
<shka>
some parts are implementation dependent, true
<shka>
but I still prefer this over something like python
<beach>
dim: Thanks for the Beamer example. I don't think I have time to study it in depth right now.
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<beach>
phoe: Yes, sure. I can mention those examples.
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<phoe>
beach: good! I'm glad I can help.
<shka>
it is funny how easy is to shoot yourself with C and C++
<shka>
messing memory alignment is one example of that
<phoe>
shka: C++ gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. The mixed metaphor is important.
* phoe
goes to #lispcafe then
<beach>
shka: Funny for you perhaps. Very sad for someone like me, partly responsible for trying to make the software industry more productive by teaching better ways to do it.
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<jackdaniel>
well, it's not that Lisp doesn't give you enough rope to hang yourself
<shka>
reality is funny ;-)
* shka
likes rope
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<phoe>
(let (x) (loop (setf x (cons x x)))) is a pretty fun way to be stupid
<beach>
phoe: Why are you looking for ways to be stupid?
<orestarod>
that's actually an expression of intelligence
<orestarod>
actively using your intellect to find funny ways to be stupid
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<beach>
I should have known that this point would be debatable.
<beach>
Everything in #lisp seems to be.
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<phoe>
beach: the discussion suddenly took a turn towards shooting oneself in the foot. I decided to contribute.
<warweasle>
Really the best way to program BF is to use lisp to compile to it.
<Petit_Dejeuner>
Create a lambda calc machine and optimize some of the evaluations with hardware lookup tables (arrays of multiplexers). The hard part is coming up with a way to represent values and to chunk them in case a single evaluation isn't possible with one lookup.
<random-nick>
we all know that malbolge is superior to bf
<warweasle>
The bad guy from Spawn?
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<Younder>
brainfuck is a joke from some guy's from MIT who wrote the 'anti' perfect programming language
<Younder>
Take everything you ever learned and then break every rule.
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<Younder>
random-nick, thx, I believe you have it beat
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<Younder>
random-nick, I love the bit about a search algorithm to find a legal program
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<jmercouris>
this is the kind of stuff _death would enjoy
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<TMA>
hunchentoot keeps idle looping consuming one full core of CPU time after the first request. The I am not aware of anything special I have done to make it so. Even a request for static content is enough to triger this behavior.
<TMA>
I have no idea, what might cause that. Have you encountered something similar?
<phoe>
TMA: which hunchentoot version? are you able to interrupt that thread and force it to print a stacktrace?
<TMA>
phoe: I am able to suspend the thread from the outside
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<phoe>
TMA: no need to suspend that particular thread; find it within your Lisp image and try (interrupt-thread thread #'break)
<phoe>
that'll hopefully force it to enter the debugger and print its stack inside it.
<phoe>
TMA: try recompiling hunchentoot with (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3) and see if the problem persists
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<TMA>
phoe: I suspect #+(and win32 sbcl x86-64) just uses busy loop wait for some reasons
<phoe>
TMA: does the worker respond normally to requests, or are other workers spun up?
<TMA>
phoe: it is functionally OK, this is the hunchentoot-listener-*:8443 thread that spins up the workers. it is just annoying that the CPU gets hot and the fan speeds up and makes noise, which distract me
<phoe>
TMA: I see. Weird.
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