<aeth>
And there are probably 3 more I don't know about
<skeuomorf>
:) Awesome
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<skeuomorf>
Good morning beach
<iqubic>
Good morning beach.
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<beach>
skeuomorf: What project are you planning to start?
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<skeuomorf>
beach: Was gonna do a pseudo-"static site generator" to replace my current setup "Hakyll" but decided to discard the idea for the moment
<jackdaniel>
skeuomorf: regarding static site generator there is coleslaw for CL
<beach>
I see. Did you decide on something else instead?
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<skeuomorf>
jackdaniel: Yeah, I saw that earlier but it doesn't really fit my needs, has a lot of things that I don't need (e.g. colorize, tweeting, gfycats, ..etc) and doesn't have stuff I need (I sometimes write in rst, org-mode, LaTeX)
<skeuomorf>
beach: Nope, not yet
<skeuomorf>
Maybe I will change my mind tomorrow and go with coleslaw :D
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<jackdaniel>
skeuomorf: these unnecessary things are optional
<jackdaniel>
McCLIM, ECL and my personal website are all powered by coleslaw
<xificurC>
how can I insert the value of x into the matcher?
<nowhere_man>
Second time, I did something with the SLIME REPL, had to kill SBCL, same issue.
<xificurC>
couldn't find it in the docs
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<nowhere_man>
xificurC: you want your first list to be (list x :y :z) ?
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<xificurC>
nowhere_man: which first list? (list x :y :z) == '(:x :y :z) in this case. I'm asking how can I inject a symbol's value into trivia's pattern matcher
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<xificurC>
imagine you're trying to rewrite this into trivia::match (let ((x :x) (to-match '(:x :y :z))) (cond ((eq x (car to-match)) (cdr to-match))))
<scymtym>
xificurC: not directly afaik, but you can do (let ((x :x)) (optima:match '(:x :y :z) ((list* (optima:guard first (eq first x)) rest) (list :first first :rest rest)))) (which should work in trivia as well)
<jackdaniel>
I had problems with trivia not evaluating first match argument (so not being really compatible with optima)
<xificurC>
scymtym: I see, thanks. A bit too verbose for my taste
<xificurC>
jackdaniel: care to give an example?
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<loli>
xificurC: you can use ` syntax in trivia
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<jackdaniel>
xificurC: no, I don't remember the exact problem
<xificurC>
I looked over the pattern matching libraries on cliki, which is always fun to do after ~2 years. I also really liked cl-unification (except for find-variable-value) and screamer. Is anyone here using any of these? Would love some feedback from first hand experience
<jackdaniel>
I remember having optima match expression used in trivia what lead to compilation error
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<contrapunctus>
o/
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<dim>
hi
<dim>
with sbcl 1.4.7 and asdf 3.3.2 under debian I get The symbol "*SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCH-FUNCTIONS*" is not external in the ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM package.
<dim>
any ideas?
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<shrdlu68>
clear
* shrdlu68
oops
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<xificurC>
anyone has hands-on experience with cl-unification and screamer?
<shka>
dlowe: i am doing it, but cl-store requires large ammount of memory anyway
<shka>
shrdlu68: not helpful
<shka>
i have around 40 gigabyte to store
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<shka>
i will not try each one of those because it would take to much time
<shrdlu68>
shka: Sorry, not sure exactly what you need. Also haven't used any of those libs myself.
<shka>
in that case, please abstain from posting this oblivious link
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<shrdlu68>
Well, some of those mention that they serialize to streams, so they might not require as much memory.
<shka>
shrdlu68: for instance, cl-store, but in pratice it is not ideal
<shrdlu68>
What kind of data are you serializing?
<shka>
vector of vectors
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<schweers>
I have a quesion regarding macros, environments and expansion. I’d like to gather pieces of code from various places and splice them together in another place, which happens later. I’m thinking of having a macro (lets call it on-way), which accepts code and stores it somehow. In addition, I’d need another macro, which takes this stored code and generates new code from it. I was thinking of storing not just the c
<schweers>
environment, so I could macroexpand while piecing things together. So far I’m not sure if I misunderstood something completely. The question which really bugs me though is: what about closures? What if the code I’m storing away refers to some lexical variable which will be long gone by the time the final code is assembled?
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<scymtym_>
shka: if your data has no circularities, maybe binding CL-STORE:*CHECK-FOR-CIRCS* to NIL could help
<shka>
schweers: you can't
<shka>
scymtym_: aaah! thanks!
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<schweers>
so if I want that, I’ll have to create lambdas and insert calls to them?
<jdz>
schweers: You can have your storing macros expand into code that store lambdas.
<jdz>
schweers: It seems you're mixing compilation and runtime environments.
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<beach>
schweers: I for one have absolutely no idea what the purpose of your code gathering would be, nor of the use case you are thinking of.
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<beach>
schweers: So you don't control where your code gathering takes place? Otherwise, just don't gather code that refers to lexical variables in parent functions.
<schweers>
jdz: not exactly mixing, but I know that my understanding is yet a little unclear. Hence my question. I already suspected that I could not have the code I collect refer to lexical variables
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<schweers>
sorry, I should expand a little: I want to walk an OSM (openstreetmap) file, and would like to register handlers for when a node, a way, or a relation object is encountered. I already do this with functions, and it works. But, as a thought experiment, I wanted to know if I could gather the code at compile-time and paste it together to have one big blob of code in the end.
<schweers>
is seems that this would not work. So I have already learned something from the answers given here
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<shka>
schweers: don't use macro for that
<schweers>
ignoring the issue of refering to the lexical environment: is it at all considered sane to gather code from various places (together with the &environment) and splice them together somewhere else?
<shka>
in concept, yes
<shka>
but implementation needs to be conservative
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<beach>
schweers: Not really. In Cleavir, we convert the code to ASTs (which no longer refers to the environment), and those ASTs are more easily combined.
<schweers>
I think do+ does this on a smaller scale
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<schweers>
which is where I got the idea
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<shka>
schweers: i don't think it really do that
<schweers>
beach: how do you convert the code?
<schweers>
then maybe I misunderstood the code
<schweers>
beach: I guess its more than just calling macroexpand, right?
<shka>
schweers: take a look at the metabang-bind source code to see reasonable way to handle this kind of stuff
<schweers>
shka: thanks for the hint, I will
<beach>
schweers: By interrogating the environment to see what the code means, and as a result, creating the AST that the code stands for. Macros and compiler macros are expanded so that no such expansion is required by further processing.
<schweers>
that’s not something that I can do with standard common lisp tools, right?
<beach>
Right.
<schweers>
thanks for all the answers, you really helped me.
<shka>
it is not really required, unless you are implementing compiler
<shka>
anyway, don't try to generate huge ammounts of code by scanning open street map
<shka>
it does not sound like reasonable approach
<beach>
shka: It is, though. If different code snippets are in different environment, you can't gather them without first removing the environment information.
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<shka>
beach: yeah, but why you would want to gather code snippets from different envs if you are not trying to build something that is basicly a compiler?
<schweers>
shka: the amount of code would not depend on the size of the openstreetmap input. I just want to gather the pieces of code on what to do with a node (for instance). But, the more I think about it, the less feasable it seems, for various reasons
<beach>
Don't ask me. Like I said, I don't understand the use case.
<shka>
beach: right
<beach>
shka: Clearly if code can refer to lexical variables in a parent, then the environment will be different for that code.
<shka>
schweers: all you need is to pass list of operations applicables when scanning graph
<shka>
and operations, well, you can use just functions
<shka>
no need to get fancy
<schweers>
that is what I am doing at the time
<shka>
it works, yes?
<schweers>
I know there is no /need/. I just wanted to know if it could be done, and what it would take.
<schweers>
you know, curiosity
<shka>
right
<shka>
well, it can be done, technically
<schweers>
And yes, it works perfectly fine.
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<shka>
but that would be close to the compiler for open stree map
<shka>
which sounds weird if you think about it
<schweers>
indeed
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<schweers>
so again, thanks alot for all your answers. you’ve helped me understand some things a little better.
<shka>
glad i could help somehow
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<steven___>
i have a question about commonqt, this is mycode (:qt-superclass "QGraphicsEllipseItem"), but it running with error, how can i resolve it
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<steven___>
Is someone using commonqt here?
<Xach>
steven___: I don't think many here use it, but there are a few from time to time
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<scymtym_>
Xach: i have fixed versions of cxml and xpath (bug fixes, fewer warnings) which i would like to push into sharplispers repositories. any objections or suggestions?
<steven___>
thank you very much, i think i shoul look for it in stackoverflow
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<beach>
ecraven: I am reading the OpenType specification from Microsoft, and I see what you mean by the complexity being intrinsic.
<beach>
It would be a great project to implement the different modules (APIs) in Common Lisp, though. I suspect it could be done incrementally.
<beach>
asarch: I would think that implementations other than CLISP would be able to do that.
<beach>
asarch: What is your reason for using CLISP, by the way?
<shka>
sbcl
<shka>
(-> A (τ (m n) (n m)))
<shka>
petalisp :/
<Bronsa>
I mean, even java can do unicode names
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<beach>
asarch: Oh, perhaps you mean Common Lisp? Then please do not use the abbreviation "Clisp", since it is the name of an implementation of Common Lisp. If you have to abbreviate Common Lisp, then use "CL".
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<asarch>
Hi beach, nice to see you again. The main reason is actually to replace my TCSH scripts with some OOP-capable programming language and to learn how AI works :-)
<asarch>
Sorry for "CLisp"
<schweers>
lisp really does still seem to have this association with AI for many people
<beach>
asarch: Sure. Then you should know that using those characters is not portable. They may not be part of the character set of every implementation.
<asarch>
Watashi wa nihongo o manande imasu
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<asarch>
I just was testing if I could use other characters than the Latin alphabet to name functions
<beach>
asarch: You can in certain implementations.
<beach>
asarch: But not in all.
<asarch>
Py2 actually can't (although Py3 is fine)
<beach>
asarch: Which is why I thought you specifically referred to CLISP.
<asarch>
Sorry, sorry. My mistake
* asarch
feels miserable... :'-(
<shka>
you should! :P
<Bike>
most implementations have unicode support tho.
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<schweers>
asarch: out of curiosity, what language was that?
<shka>
using anything other then ascii for function name is bad idea
<beach>
schweers: Japanese.
<schweers>
shka: I think it’s a bad idea to use non-ascii outside of a comment or docstring
<schweers>
s/docstring/string/
<schweers>
and maybe even there
<Bike>
it's the glorious future, i don't want to be stuck with what a bunch of cold war engineers thought language was
<shka>
for any symbol, really
<shka>
Bike: future was canceled
<schweers>
shka: when? the moment that the industry decided that lisp was of the devil? :-P
<shka>
we have capitalist realism for now and forever
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<shka>
schweers: hard to tell, but we are stuck with pre-80s technology and primitive economic model to back it
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<dim>
Unicode for function and variable names is debatable, because in many cases there is more than one possible binary encoding for the same visual output, even without mentionning invisible space
<shka>
and majority consensus seems to be that it is fine
<jackdaniel>
mocl is not conforming common lisp (but they work towards this goal)
<jackdaniel>
eql5-android worked fine for me when I was playing with it, there are quite a few examples in the source tree
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<jackdaniel>
lispworks works on android from commercial implementations
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<warweasle>
I think dto got ecl to work on android.
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<jackdaniel>
ecl works fine on android, eql5 is based on ecl and on qt5
<jackdaniel>
there is eql5 repl application in google play afaik
<jackdaniel>
so you can dig into it right away (it is swank-enabled)
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<jackdaniel>
dto's games worked with sdl on the other hand. there is ecl's performance bottleneck with clos dispatch we plan to address *after* the upcoming release
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<jackdaniel>
(we plan to follow clasp and implement beach's fast dispatch method)
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<contrapunctus>
makomo: MOCL has been around for a while now, I think :)
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<skeuomorf>
jackdaniel: Do you have any idea whether I can have a post as an HTML file that will be rendered as-is? Using coleslaw I mean