<mfiano>
Works just fine on SBCL. Went to test my project on CCL and nope :/
<defunkydrummer>
buon giorno amici
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<cgay>
haha, now I will always say "macrolay" and "flay". There's just no going back.
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<rme>
how did you install ccl? it looks like it can't find the interface db (used by the #_ reader macro).
<mfiano>
I compiled it from the svn repo
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<defunkydrummer>
cgay: macrolay, flay, flay-star, and also frito-lay
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<rme>
mfiano: "offical" ccl has been on github for a while now (https://github.com/Clozure/ccl). If you start your ccl and evaluate (#_getpid) does it work?
<defunkydrummer>
mfiano: static-vectors quickloads fine for me, i'm on SBCL 1.3.10 on windows 64bit
<mfiano>
I took the lazy way and just installed ccl-git from the Arch AUR. I also think I should reboot this machine...it might have had a few linux kernel installs that diverge from the booted one :)
<mfiano>
I'll check on all that
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<defunkydrummer>
mfiano: i'm really pending to try CCL since long ago, i'll see if there is a binary for lazy-ass guys like me
<mfiano>
defunkydrummer: Yeah it has always worked on SBCL for me
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<cgay>
I think even back in the 80s there were both the c-loss and kloss pronunciations. I distinctly remember switching from the former to the latter because it seemed more dominant.
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<defunkydrummer>
oh yeah, CCL has a binary for lazy flakes like me... Downnnloaaadinggggggg my entry to the fantastic world of CCL
<rme>
defunkydrummer: Please see above release link. Download and unpack one file, and you'll have a running ccl (binaries and sources).
<defunkydrummer>
CloZure, which sounds so mmmuch better than Clojure !!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Is there any way to close sockets in sbcl that you've accidentally leaked?
<defunkydrummer>
Clo-zu-re! yay! flay! macrolay!
<pillton>
fiddlerwoaroof: (sb-ext:quit)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
:(
<cgay>
Who have you leaked sbcl to?
<defunkydrummer>
bonjour Beach
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I was running drakma:http-request in a loop with want-stream t, and I didn't think about how leaving the stream open means leaking sockets
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
And, I'd rather not lose my repl state
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I guess it's just exiting
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<PuercoPop>
TIL that I've been pronouncing Chevrolet wrong all my life!
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<defunkydrummer>
PuercoPop: CHE-BRO-LET : che (argentinian for "bro"), bro (american for "che"), let (binding operator)
<defunkydrummer>
PuercoPop also there's chevrolet* and fchevrolet
<defunkydrummer>
rme: i just got the CCL REPL running. Thanks !
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<cgay>
no chevrolabels?
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<defunkydrummer>
yes, like a chevrolet but with a large scope. The scope allows you to see further into the road, particularly at night, and more particularly when you have (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3)))
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<_death>
fiddlerwoaroof: when that happened to me and all descriptors were taken I just did (sb-posix:close 1234)
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<Xof>
in (let ((z 'bar)) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination bar z))), what do you expect the method combination to receive as an argument?
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<beach>
I take it it is unspecified whether the argument is evaluated?
<Xof>
I can't see it specified
<Xof>
I might have missed something. (I hope I have)
<beach>
Don't count on it.
<beach>
I would help you, but my computer has some hardware problem I think, and it keeps crashing if I do too many things.
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<beach>
"The handling of the :method-combination option is not specified."
<beach>
Note to self: In WSCL, specify how the :METHOD-COMBINATION option of DEFGENERIC is handled, in particular, whether the method-combination-arguments are evaluated.
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<meh>
beach: From your slides, what does "obtaining a pointer outside of an array" mean?
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<akr>
when track is nil, the query should require that track is nil, otherwise it should require that it is equal to the id
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<akr>
not sure how to write this, though
<akr>
I guess that the whole (:select …) form is quoted by pomo:query, but I can't use backtick inside it on my own
<shka>
akr: this maps directly into sql semantics
<shka>
you can simply construct list on your own though, compile it and then query it
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<akr>
how do I compile it?
<akr>
oh, pomo:sql-compile?
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<akr>
yeah ok looks like that's it
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<akr>
thanks, looks like it works
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<meh>
Is there a word that refers to the property of a system and processes on that system such that any effect on the system can be undone?
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
Non-destructive?*
<theemacsshibe[m]>
*however this is like saying pure (in FP) I suppose
<theemacsshibe[m]>
Reversible works better.
<ukari>
i found that it seems common to add (in-package :cl-user), is thete any benefit to it?
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<ukari>
or just for ensure move into cl-user?
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<Xach>
it can be nice to know where you are
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<shka>
better safe then sorry!
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<theemacsshibe[m]>
meh: if I were selling a product I'd say non-destructive. Users don't really mind how you allocate data in their software. If I were describing processes in Lisp, reversible hopefully will confuse people less.
<theemacsshibe[m]>
nconc is destructive, append is not destructive. Neither is very reversible.
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<dim>
meh: transactional, I guess, see also ROLLBACK
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<ukari>
is it possible to pull a macrolet variable to outside? sth like this, (funcall (lambda () (macrolet ((fn (&body body) `(lambda () ,@body))) fn)))
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<Bike>
macrolet defines a macro. there is no variable to begin with.
<Bike>
so i don't know what you're trying to do here.
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<ukari>
i want to get macro 'fn' out as an anonymous macro
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<phoe>
ukari: you can't really do that.
<Bike>
what is the point of an anonymous macro?
<ukari>
something anonymous like lambda
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<phoe>
in the base case, you can define an anonymous function that accepts two arguments, WHOLE and ENV, and funcall this on your forms, then eval that code.
<Bike>
that doesn't answer my question. you can use an anonymous function. you can funcall or apply it. an anonymous macro does not have a similar use.
<phoe>
but that's a very workaround.
<ukari>
(macro lambda-list &body)
<Bike>
But what would it be good for. What are you doing with it.
<ukari>
a function would eval arguements but macro not
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<Bike>
Eval arguments when? how are you using this? What is example code? You can use an anonymous function like (funcall (lambda (x) x) 4) => 4.
<Bike>
what are you doing with an anonymous macro?
<ukari>
Bike, i dont know, i thought an anonymous macro might be exist
<Bike>
it doesn't.
<Bike>
here's the trick: macros are gone once the compiler is finished.
<Bike>
macrolets disappear after compile time. they don't leave behind macros as values or anything.
<Bike>
so passing macros around as values is a difficult proposition.
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<ukari>
i get it
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<flip214>
the even bigger problem is that the compiler will already have computed all the _inputs_ as _values_, so splicing a macro in and expecting the source forms to be available is even harder.
<drastik>
.ud powry
<drastik>
wrong channel
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<foojin>
What is the purpose of lambda as a symbol? I know that lambda as a macro inserts a (function ...) around an inner lambda, but is the inner one a mere symbol that doesn't "do" anything unless handed to "function"?
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<jackdaniel>
symbol lambda denotes a lambda expression
<jackdaniel>
and lambda expression may be used when normally you'd use a function name
<jackdaniel>
so it is a literate function structure
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<edgar-rft>
foojin: how can om
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<edgar-rft>
foojin: how can one write a LAMBDA macro without LAMBDA being a symbol?
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<cgay>
foojin, you seem to have some specific code in mind. Paste it somewhere so we can see?
<Petit_Dejeuner>
edgar-rft: Maybe flet and return a function in the body?
<MichaelRaskin>
edgar-rft: I think they mean that CLHS has «Symbol LAMBDA» separately from «Macro LAMBDA»
<Petit_Dejeuner>
I guess it wouldn't work for ((lambda (a b c) (list a b c)) 1 2 3) code though
<Petit_Dejeuner>
need that #'funcall
<foojin>
cgay: Actually I don't. I just want to understand if there's something like "function" which handles 'lambda in a special way.
<MichaelRaskin>
I think that moth LAMBDA and SETF are just for FUNCTION
<MichaelRaskin>
(as symbols)
<foojin>
That is, is 'LAMBDA something more that just a syntax convention for invoking FUNCTION?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, SETF can be also used in a DEFUN
<Bike>
(function (lambda ...)) means a function, yes. That's what the "Symbol LAMBDA" entry in the CLHS is about.
<phoe>
foojin: there's no function that handles "symbol LAMBDA" differently. It's the evaluator that handles it differently.
<phoe>
The CAR of each function call may be either a symbol that names a function, or a LAMBDA form.
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<phoe>
If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like (foo ...) then it calls the function FOO.
<Bike>
yeah, it's treated specially in lambda forms,and (function ...) does as well.
<phoe>
If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like ((lambda (...) ...) ...) then it calls the anonymous function denoted by the lambda form.
<Bike>
that's what the "symbol LAMBDA" entry is about.
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<foojin>
phoe: But isn't it expanded to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) in that case too?
<Bike>
no.
<Bike>
it is a special case of the evaluator, not a macroexpansion.
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<Bike>
the CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally. That's why it can only be a symbol or a lambda expression.
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<foojin>
Bike: So when it sees a form like this, it skips expansion for the (LAMBDA ...) and handles it directly?
<Bike>
yes.
<Bike>
Do you understand that, say, ((foo bar) baz) is not a valid lisp form?
<Bike>
The CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally.
<foojin>
Yes, but I thougnt that it doesn't inhibit macro expansion.
<cgay>
foojin, there are no macros involved here.
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<phoe>
foojin: that is not a macro
<Bike>
why would it do macroexpansion?
<Bike>
(<symbol> ...) is valid. ((lambda ...) ...) is valid. everything else is invalid, so there's no need to macroexpand the car
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<foojin>
I see. So, except for that and lambda-as-a-macro case, LAMBDA doesn't have any other special meaning, right?
<phoe>
correct
<phoe>
it has two special uses: as a standard macro, and as a symbol naming an anonymous function in forms that are evaluated
<phoe>
other than that, it's just a symbol
<Bike>
and in FUNCTION.
<phoe>
oh right, this as well - sorry, I keep on forgetting about this
<foojin>
That's been bugging me for a while, and now I finally get it. Thanks a lot.
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<edgar-rft>
Is LAMBDA allowed to be used a s a variable name?
<phoe>
edgar-rft: all symbols can be used as variable names, except 1) constants cannot be shadowed, 2) things get weird with symbols naming special variables and symbol macros
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<edgar-rft>
okay, but (defvar lambda ...) gives here: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated
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<phoe>
edgar-rft: ha, you can't do that.
<phoe>
it only applies to local variables.
<phoe>
globally proclaiming any symbol from the COMMON-LISP package special is undefined.
<p_l>
but you can use LAMBDA in different symbol, of course
<phoe>
gosh, these chapter names are really weird sometimes
<phoe>
"Some Exceptions to Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs"
<phoe>
I mean, it makes sense
<phoe>
but is kinda long
<edgar-rft>
that's why I couldn't remember the CLHS chapter :-)
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<phoe>
"Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code"
<phoe>
11.1.2.1.2.1.1.3.1.42
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<edgar-rft>
is this the longest?
<phoe>
edgar-rft: no, it actually doesn't exist.
<edgar-rft>
then I can use it as a variable name?
<phoe>
...but, judging by your confusion, it certainly could.
<phoe>
edgar-rft: ...what as a variable name
<phoe>
because I just imagined (defvar *some-exceptions-to-constraints-to-...-safe-code* ..)
<p_l>
(defun |Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code| () 'dafuq )
<phoe>
edgar-rft: quick, get this on quicklisp before Xach notices that it makes completely no sense
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<edgar-rft>
if you look at PJB's code long enough, I'm sure it's already there
<phoe>
...touché
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<ealfonso>
I wonder if it's very hard to get into a running lisp to change a value. or to force execution of a save-lisp-and-die, change something, and restart
<phoe>
ealfonso: um, wait - get into a running lisp to change a value?
<phoe>
what do you mean?
<ealfonso>
phoe I have a long-running service where I would like to change something that isn't configurable except by changing a variable's value
<ealfonso>
phoe probably a silly question and not too important. but I know using gdb it is possible to attach to a running process and change things around
<MichaelRaskin>
For Lisp you could want to use SLIME
<MichaelRaskin>
Or just run the service inside a normal SBCL instance inside screen/tmux, connect and issue the (setf …)
<ealfonso>
MichaelRaskin can I use SLIME to connect to something that doesn't expose a swank server? how do I 'connect' to issue the (setf ...)?
<phoe>
ealfonso: make it run a swank server
<phoe>
you usually want these on long-running services anyway in order to introspect and debug the image
<MichaelRaskin>
What kind of control do you have over the service?
<MichaelRaskin>
Meh. REPL for the win.
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<ealfonso>
phoe that's a good point
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<MichaelRaskin>
But in any case, it is reasonable to have _some_ way to interact with the servuce
<ealfonso>
MichaelRaskin yeah. I was curious if it could be done without a swank server, I have root access to the system where the process is running
<MichaelRaskin>
Is I/O redirected to /dev/null?
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<ealfonso>
MichaelRaskin no. I can probably get into ldb by issuing ^C
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<phoe>
ealfonso: theoretically you could open up a tmux session, make it run SBCL, run your service from it, and still have access to stdio
<phoe>
you can connect to the tmux and have the default REPL available.
<ealfonso>
phoe actually the process is compiled to an executable using buildapp, so it's not an interactive repl
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<ealfonso>
phoe anyway, I think the suggestion to add a swank server is probably a good idea
<phoe>
ealfonso: in this case, make it use swank and add a start-server call as a part of its execution hooks.
<ealfonso>
phoe yeah, I can do this if I'm willing to kill the currently running process. which I am
<ealfonso>
I guess I could also attach to the process using gdb. but I would probably have no idea what to do
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<MichaelRaskin>
gdb + moving GC sounds like a recipe for pain
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<zxcvz>
ERROR: invalid number of arguments: 2. Anyone know how to tell SBCL to tell me where the error actually is?
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<ealfonso>
zxcvz do you see a stack trace, are you using SLIME or plain repl?
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<zxcvz>
I don't get any stack trace. Using repl through Sublime.
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<Xach>
zxcvz: that will land you in the debugger, which starts out with "0]". :backtrace will show the backtrace.
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<zxcvz>
Xach: I just get the error message. I never enter the debugger.
<Xach>
zxcvz: oh. i haven't used Sublime, so I'm not sure what it might be doing, but if you are using the sbcl repl directly it will enter the debugger on error. I'm not sure how to get help with what sublime is doing, sorry.
<Xach>
with emacs and slime, "v" will jump from the frame to the error location. it is handy.
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<ealfonso>
zxcvz I also use emacs and slime and it makes for a good debugging experience
<zxcvz>
xach: I get the same result using sbcl directly.
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<zxcvz>
ealfonso: never fancied emacs unfortunately.
<Xach>
zxcvz: Interesting! What do you type that shows that error message?
<ealfonso>
zxcvz maybe something is trapping your error? are you using a framework or library?
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<zxcvz>
Xach: Running a program. Apparently I've made some change some where. A bit irritating with just an error message without the debugger.
<Xach>
zxcvz: yeah, definitely. what program, if you don't mind sharing?
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<zxcvz>
Xach: clisp managed to give me better feedback. Found the error.
<zxcvz>
ealfonso: solved it with clisp
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<rme>
it's nice to have multiple CL implementations
<aeth>
In, practice, though, if you use enough libraries you're only going to get it to run on SBCL, CCL, and maybe ECL. At least, the libraries I've happened to use.
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<Xof>
well, all CL implementations that I've found to play with today have the opposite behaviour for (:method-combination foo x) than I sort-of want
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<Xof>
I wonder how much code breaks if I make sbcl behave my way
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<Xof>
(probably very little: see previous discussions about no-one using long-form method combination)
<Bike>
you want it to evaluate?
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<Bike>
i'll tell you what you're breaking. my beautiful machine method combo
<Xof>
here, have one of these: '
<Xof>
I am imagining code a bit like (let ((shared (cons nil nil))) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method foo (x) (car shared))) (defgeneric bar (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method bar (x) (cdr shared))))
<Xof>
where the method combination does stuff to shared
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<Xof>
I don't yet know if this is a good idea
<Xof>
but I know that it's not possible if you don't evaluate method combination args, whereas you can get the current de-facto standard behaviour by quoting everything
<Xof>
or choosing self-evaluating things for your mc arguments
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<Xof>
I don't know. This is probably not the hill I should be trying to climb, let alone making my last stand on
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<Bike>
yeah, i don't see any reason not to evaluate really
<Bike>
i did the same thing a while back trying to figure out if the options returned by make-method-lambda are evaluated