stebalien changed the topic of #ipfs to: Heads Up: To talk, you need to register your nick! Announcements: go-ipfs 0.4.22 and js-ipfs 0.35 are out! Get them from dist.ipfs.io and npm respectively! | Also: #libp2p #ipfs-cluster #filecoin #ipfs-dev | IPFS, the InterPlanetary FileSystem: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs | Logs: https://view.matrix.org/room/!yhqiEdqNjyPbxtUjzm:matrix.org/ | Forums: https://discuss.ipfs.io | Code of
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<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Assuming I want to store 30 TB ~2.5 million documents in public IPFS servers, by adding new servers with the documents pinned, how bad a time I'm going to have?
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<ShadowJonathanDi>
eleitl i'd recommend #filecoin or #ipfs-cluster
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Thanks, but ipfs cluster assumes I'm controlling all the servers, whereas this is a bunch of individuals joining the public IPFS grid with their own ones, where the stuff is pinned.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
again, filecoin
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and if its ppl pinning stuff themselves
<ShadowJonathanDi>
the only thing you're probably ever gonna get a problem with is bandwith
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* the only thing you're probably ever gonna get a problem with is bandwidth
<ShadowJonathanDi>
i think
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:conniehmm:
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Why do people need to deal with filecoin, if they just want to join the public ipfs grid?
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Bandwidth is not the problem, just principal availability of something that has one or a couple pins.
<ZerXes>
you want to make sure no data is lost of one of the individuals just leave?
<ZerXes>
if*
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<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Not necessarily. Missing data can be added from the original dataset later on.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
how?
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
So people coming and going is tolerable, somewhat.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:)
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<ZerXes>
so whats the purpuse on putting the data in IPFS?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
what you're describing is the general idea of IPFS
<ShadowJonathanDi>
what exactly do you want to solve?
<ZerXes>
yeah
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* what you're describing is the general *idea* of IPFS
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
I'm trying to push 2.5 million documents, about 30 TB total. The purpose is that not everybody has to deal with a 30 TB chunk.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Would the current network have problems with that?
<ZerXes>
no
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Good. Just wanted to check before trying it. Thanks.
<ZerXes>
just put your node with all the 30TB data pinned online, and have the other users come online and start pinning the chunks they want.
<ZerXes>
preferbly have them connect directly to your master-node
<ZerXes>
to find the data faster
<ShadowJonathanDi>
30 TB of data is a lot to copy, though
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:coffeesip:
<ZerXes>
yeah it will still not be *fast*
<ZerXes>
but your question was basically "will the IPFS network die?" and no, it wont
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Would it work if let's say 100 people published the documents on their own ipfs nodes? Would the document URL be deterministic, or unique for each document, even if it's the same one?
<ZerXes>
the document URL will always be the same for the same content
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Excellent.
<ZerXes>
IPFS will check the checksum of the document content and use that hash as the URL basically
<ShadowJonathanDi>
there are no URLs in IPFS
<ShadowJonathanDi>
only CIDs
<ZerXes>
so if 2 different people publish the same document it will have the same address and both of them will just become "seeders" from start
<ShadowJonathanDi>
Content IDs
<ShadowJonathanDi>
CIDs are based off of the hash of the block it is referencing
<ShadowJonathanDi>
blocks are 256kb max
<ShadowJonathanDi>
blocks can reference other CIDs
<ShadowJonathanDi>
this is how IPFS builds files, by bundling multiple blocks together
<ShadowJonathanDi>
when a client wants a block, it'll put out that particular block on it's "want list" (the specific implimentation of this is bitswap)
<ShadowJonathanDi>
other clients can then share the data, or not
<ShadowJonathanDi>
also, the client can look for what clients actually can provide the data
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and try to connect to a node as close as ones with the whole block recursively pinned
<ShadowJonathanDi>
there are no URLs in IPFS
<ShadowJonathanDi>
what you're thinking about probably is `/ipfs/Qm...`
<ShadowJonathanDi>
those are ways for public HTTP gateways to differentiate between IPFS and IPNS
<ShadowJonathanDi>
the latter of which is a way to mutably define a "pointer"
<ShadowJonathanDi>
to a block of data
<aschmahmann[m]>
eleitl (Discord): a couple things you might run in to.
<aschmahmann[m]>
2) You may run into bandwidth issues advertising to the network that you have all of that content, so you may want to change the reprovider strategy (https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/blob/master/docs/config.md) to pinned or roots
<ShadowJonathanDi>
what `/ipfs/` is is a *wrapper* for the classic internet to be able to reference IPFS file trees as urls
<ShadowJonathanDi>
i *really* recommend reading the whitepaper in general eleitl
<ShadowJonathanDi>
it sounds like you're missing some core concepts in general about IPFS, and the ambition of hosting a 30TB dataset is nice, but please do it *right*, as importing 30TB of storage also copies it to the block store
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and i personally dont even know if a system can handle 30 Billion hashes
<ShadowJonathanDi>
or something of that number
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* and i personally dont even know if a block system can handle 30 Billion hashes
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* and i personally dont even know if a block system can handle 30 Billion multihashes
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
The documents are typically few 100 kbytes to few Mbytes. Some outliers up to 100 GB, I think.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
So it would fit with the 256 kb blocks rather nicely.
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<ZerXes>
what kind of documents are typically a few 100kb but up to 100GB? 0_o
<ShadowJonathanDi>
that's not the point, im talking about how to think to structure and define that data
<ShadowJonathanDi>
you can just as well gzip it all and put THAT huge chunk onto ipfs
<ShadowJonathanDi>
it is possible
<ShadowJonathanDi>
but is it useful?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
is it structured
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* is it structured?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
no, of course not
<ShadowJonathanDi>
is it efficient?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
yes?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
there's many probable ways you're gonna do this, but please have in mind how the underlying system is actually going to *work* when you're done with it
<ShadowJonathanDi>
since it is immutable
<ShadowJonathanDi>
you cant change it once you define it
<ShadowJonathanDi>
only scrap it and then import it again
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
The document are currently self-addressed by their own MD5 hash. So it is precisely the immutability here that is a good fit.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and you dont wanna have that "oh shit" moment when you already started spreading the data around
<ShadowJonathanDi>
...why md5?
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
It's an old project, so tradition.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
1 sec
<ShadowJonathanDi>
oh yeah
<ShadowJonathanDi>
no
<ShadowJonathanDi>
even if its gonna define the data with the md5 algorithm
<ShadowJonathanDi>
you wont get the same hash
<ShadowJonathanDi>
since its a hash of the block that has many more CIDs in it that refer to other blocks of data
<ShadowJonathanDi>
so not the actual array of bytes the document is going to me
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* so not the actual array of bytes the document is going to be
<ShadowJonathanDi>
im sorry im so confrontational, but i kinda panicked
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
No problem, the network must be protected 😉
<ShadowJonathanDi>
no not that
<ShadowJonathanDi>
i just wanna prevent problems on your end
<ShadowJonathanDi>
that can easily be prevented
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
To recap, I can get an unique URI specifying the document (which is a has of CIDs, etc.) regardless on which IPFS node the document has been published?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
CID
<ShadowJonathanDi>
not URL or URI
<ShadowJonathanDi>
you can make a URL with a CID via a public gateway
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
If it's deterministic, then it would work. If it depends on where it has been published, it's going to have to be centralized, which is obviously problematic.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
it doesnt depend on where it's published
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<eleitlDiscord[m]>
I'm assuming I'm working with a public gateway, since the application front end would serve URIs instead of paths into the local filesystem like it currently does.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
though the physical and network distance from requesting nodes to your own (number of hops between a client finding you or your data) is going to play a factor
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* though the physical (bc latency) and network distance from requesting nodes to your own (number of hops between a client finding you or your data) is going to play a factor
<ShadowJonathanDi>
yeah
<ShadowJonathanDi>
then i recommend using `window.ipfs` first of all
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and maybe think about using ipfs-js
<ShadowJonathanDi>
so the system does not abuse public gateways
<ShadowJonathanDi>
but instead actually replicates the data
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and distributes it
<ShadowJonathanDi>
while users see it
<ShadowJonathanDi>
more redundancy that way
<ShadowJonathanDi>
if you link everything to a centralized gateway, that gateway is either probably going to blacklist your reference domain, or its gonna throttle it
<ShadowJonathanDi>
public gateways are not to be abused for this, use in-browser ipfs
<ShadowJonathanDi>
that's my recommendation
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* public gateways are not to be abused for this, use in-browser (or local) ipfs
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
I'm assuming the added ipfs nodes would each run their own public gateway, and publish the document batches with automation.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:facepalm:
<ShadowJonathanDi>
no, that's not what a gateway means...
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* no, that's not what a public gateway means...
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
You need a gateway in order to serve the application. Whether it's public, or not, it doesn't matter, as long as the application sees it.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Would you recommend using the go IPFS implementation for this? Dockerize it, perhaps?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
what're you talking about right now?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
the viewing software
<ShadowJonathanDi>
or a client that pins the data?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* the viewing software,
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* the viewing software that uses a ipfs client to pull the data,
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
The viewing software is nginx/PHP talking to a MariaDB and pulls filenames, which in this case would be references to an URI any public IPFS gateway could resolve.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:whatcat:
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
In this case, there would be a local IPFS gateway talking to the application.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
nginx and php are server applications
<ShadowJonathanDi>
you wish to basically make the viewing software centralized?
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
You could run your own copy of it, but it assumes that the document hashes resolve globally, so the backend is then distributed.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
oh wait, the viewing software downloads files?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
or at least
<ShadowJonathanDi>
makes request to download the files
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* makes requests to download the files
<ShadowJonathanDi>
the actual files
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Sure, it's a bog normal web server with search functionality, serving up documents. Only in this case you're pulling them from the network.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
ah yeah
<ShadowJonathanDi>
hmm
<ShadowJonathanDi>
in that case you can use a public gateway
<ShadowJonathanDi>
but at the very least know that i think they wont be extremely happy about it
<swedneck>
<eleitlDiscord[m] "Sure, it's a bog normal web serv"> why not just reverse proxy go-ipfs?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* in that case you can use a public gateway (and not make clients run ipfs locally)
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Yeah, sure you could probably bundle it into the nginx.
<swedneck>
bundle it?
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Bundle the reverse proxy for go-ipfs (presumably, running on localhost or some other private space) along with the PHP application.
<swedneck>
what's your goal?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
bundle the..
<ShadowJonathanDi>
* bundle the...
<ShadowJonathanDi>
breath in
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:facepalm:
<ShadowJonathanDi>
first of all
<ShadowJonathanDi>
please explain to me exactly how that is any more efficient or any more useful than just running an electron app
<ShadowJonathanDi>
or making it a web app
<ShadowJonathanDi>
website
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Thank you, you have been very helpful. I think I'll try to set up go-ipfs instance, and play with it.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
ipfs file that is a website
<swedneck>
you don't need anything else to view stuff on the ipfs network, you can literally just reverse proxy localhost:8080
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
It's a web app, probably in a docker container.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
or anything else than an application that runs on local clients, runs nginx to proxy something, and then use php to render it?
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and where exactly does that docker container live
<ShadowJonathanDi>
if i may ask
<swedneck>
<eleitlDiscord[m] "It's a web app, probably in a do"> but why
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
If I try to publish a 30 TB body decentrally, and tell each contributor to run a Docker container with a subset of the data set, I can package the go-ipfs into the Docker container along with the application, and script it to publish it to the tune of, say, 100 GB a chunk.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
....sure
<swedneck>
hmm
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Any show stoppers I'm not seeing?
<swedneck>
that sounds okay, but i don't think you need php or anything like that
<ShadowJonathanDi>
i think your show only consists of them
<ShadowJonathanDi>
tbh
<ShadowJonathanDi>
im not gonna mince words, i personally think you have not thought this out in the slightest, or even know how to future proof or how to properly think about all of this
<ShadowJonathanDi>
in a true structured way
<ShadowJonathanDi>
and first of all
<ShadowJonathanDi>
know exactly how ipfs works
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
I obviously don't know how ipfs works, which is why I came here. And you have been very helpful, thank you very much.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
As to future proof, the application logic has been working for a decade without any changes, so I don't expect it to change.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
:pinkbored:
<ShadowJonathanDi>
me neither
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
If it doesn't work, then I've wasted some of your time, and plenty of mine.
<ShadowJonathanDi>
hmmm
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<ShadowJonathanDi>
im gonna be honest with you here, i think your idea is amazing, but you probably need to ask a few more fellas around here
<ShadowJonathanDi>
im also just new, so i can be wrong, but please talk to them properly about this before attempting to do this
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Sure, I'll fool around and will be probably back asking questions. Thanks again.
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<ShadowJonathanDi>
no problem :stevonieeee:
<aschmahmann[m]>
eleitl (Discord): since it sounds like you have a number of contributors you're expecting to host the large dataset it might be worth taking a look at IPFS cluster
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
It would probably make the publishing more efficient.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
But organizing volunteers is probably harder.
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<aschmahmann[m]>
seems reasonable, the organic ipfs growth might be easier to deal with. I'd still look into cluster more though (perhaps ask on the #freenode_#ipfs-cluster:matrix.org channel), since it may make it both easier to locate data and more likely for uncommon portions of the dataset to be replicated.
<eleitlDiscord[m]>
Thanks, will look into it.
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<M2dope[m]>
<eleitlDiscord[m] "But organizing volunteers is pro"> eleitl (Discord):
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<barrygDiscord[m]>
Hey, I'm having an issue with js-ipfs. Apparently using `ipfs.add` does not wrap in a folder, just returning the first hash, while using the same command with the same array of content with http-client does return the hash of the folder containing all the content. Where can I troubleshoot this further?
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<ZerXes>
ottpeter: it will take some time for the data to find its way to the ipfs.io nodes
<ZerXes>
keep trying the hash and after a few minuts it should appear
<ZerXes>
depending on how large the folder you added is
<ottpeter>
@ZerXes ok, thank you!
<ottpeter>
yes, it's there
<ottpeter>
thanks!
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<FrozenFire[alt]>
I'm doing some research for a project idea. My hope is to build an EFI application which implements the absolute smallest possible IPFS client implementation, which can retrieve another EFI application from an address on IPFS, verify, and load it.
<FrozenFire[alt]>
Is there a good example of a "smallest implementation" of an IPFS client?
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