<joelteon>
specifically because i want to lose weight
<alexgordon>
joelteon: eat less
<joelteon>
keto it is
<alexgordon>
ha
<alexgordon>
joelteon: is the principle of keto that food costs *so much* that you can't afford to get fat?
<joelteon>
exactl
<joelteon>
y
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<joelteon>
ok, so I just found a haskell buildpack for heroku
<joelteon>
this
<joelteon>
is
<joelteon>
AWESOME
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<devyn>
whitequark: /w 32
<devyn>
er, hi
<cuttle>
alexgordon: self-control-based solutions tend to not be as consistently effective
<cuttle>
like, you can say
<cuttle>
everyone be nice to each other
<cuttle>
or you can do clever manipulation techniques so people will automatically be nice to each other
<cuttle>
which one will work better?
* cuttle
predicts alexgordon will say the first one to be a meanie
<cuttle>
:p
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<devyn>
cuttle: yeah pretty much
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<whitequark>
devyn: hi
<whitequark>
devyn: ok so
<whitequark>
I decided I can't stand GUI stuff
<whitequark>
so if you'd do that it would be really nice
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<alextgordon>
cuttle: I don't understand
<alextgordon>
[04:45:07] <cuttle> alexgordon: self-control-based solutions tend to not be as consistently effective
<alextgordon>
[04:45:10] <cuttle> like, you can say
<alextgordon>
[04:45:13] <cuttle> everyone be nice to each other
<alextgordon>
[04:45:31] <cuttle> which one will work better?
<alextgordon>
[04:45:26] <cuttle> or you can do clever manipulation techniques so people will automatically be nice to each other
<alextgordon>
[04:45:50] cuttle predicts alexgordon will say the first one to be a meanie
<alextgordon>
I feel like clever manipulation always backfires, self control is better ;)
<cuttle>
lol i knew you would say that
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
let's make it more concrete
<cuttle>
alextgordon: saying "don't throw cig butts on the ground" does not work; putting easily accessible ashtrays significantly reduces the amount of stubs littering the ground
<alextgordon>
cuttle: oh but that's more of a tragedy of the commons kind of thing
<cuttle>
alextgordon: telling yourself "I won't eat these oreos next to me" is a lot harder than not getting any oreos in the first place
<cuttle>
alextgordon: tragedy of the commons is a *result* of the fact that you cannot rely on self control
<alextgordon>
nah it's more that humans are hardwired to expect small results from small actions
<alextgordon>
if one person is throwing cig butts on the ground, it won't matter much. If EVERYBODY is doing it, then it will
<cuttle>
yes, and same thing with diets
<cuttle>
eating a donut is a small action
<cuttle>
eating lots of refined sugars and simple carbs all the time, way over your calorie expenditures per day, will result in weight gains
<alextgordon>
true, but there's less of a tendency to blame "the system" because it's all up to you
<cuttle>
keto requires less self control than "eat less" because not only do you start only buying the food that is not bad for you to eat
<alextgordon>
even if I stop throwing cig butts on the ground (not that I smoke :P) then it only matters if other people do too
<cuttle>
but also, it actually reduces your appetite for sugars
<cuttle>
etc.
<cuttle>
like, once your glycogen stores are depleted and you're constantly burning fat for energy, your body doesn't crave simple carbs and sugars the way it does when you're eating lots of those every day
<cuttle>
not that i have done it and speak from experience but yeah
<alextgordon>
I think merely abstaining from sugars also reduces your appetite for them
<cuttle>
alextgordon: sure, blaming the system is a part of it, but I think blaming the system is not the main part of the tragedy of the commons
<alextgordon>
sugars mess around with your blood sugar, they're addictive
<cuttle>
it's humans' lack of ability to sacrifice short-term gain for long-term gain
<alextgordon>
if you stop eating them, then you'll have more constant blood sugar
<alextgordon>
constant is the wrong word... reliable
<cuttle>
right, keto keeps your blood sugar more stable
<cuttle>
gtg walk to next class
<alextgordon>
I mean you do want your blood sugar to go up and down, lots of obese people do have very stable blood sugar
<alextgordon>
effect is they're always hungry
<cuttle>
i don't even know
<cuttle>
anyway bbiab
<alextgordon>
o7
<whitequark>
also just being too lazy to eat works
<alextgordon>
yep
<whitequark>
unfortunately it tends to have a disturbing effect on everything else, too
<alextgordon>
I think the reason americans are so fat (more PC: have the highest levels of obesity) is that they rely on "eating out" instead of cooking for themselves
<alextgordon>
and all the restaurants serve HUGE FUCKING PORTIONS
<joelteon>
also because we all drive cars
<alextgordon>
eh, exercise is overrated :P
<joelteon>
ok
<alextgordon>
if you're eating a healthy diet, maybe exercise can make a difference
<alextgordon>
but chocolate bars, etc have such a high energy density that it really doesn't
<cuttle>
exercise is definitely not overrated, but maybe re weight it is
<cuttle>
i mean a run can burn several hundred calories, so if you run a few times a week that's a good amount of calories gone
<cuttle>
but yeah, I think it's portions + availability/popularity of really high-glycemic-index/obesity-causing foods
<alextgordon>
cuttle: if you're eating thousands of calories a day, burning several hundred doesn't seem to make a difference
<alextgordon>
unless you burn several hundred every day
<alextgordon>
better just to eat less...
<alextgordon>
I think it's generally accepted that exercise has some positive systemic effects on weight loss, but it's absolutely useless for "burning calories"
<cuttle>
alextgordon: you eat thousands a day but a few hundred over your bugdet per day results in pretty consistent weight gain
<alextgordon>
right but a few hundred is not a lot of food, that's all I'm saying
<cuttle>
yeah I don't exercise consistently right now but when I do my reasoning is more for just being in shape and feeling great
<cuttle>
rather than weight
<alextgordon>
why torture yourself running miles every day, when you could just eat a few hundred grams less food
<cuttle>
like, having an in shape respiratory system is *great*
<cuttle>
well, I've gotten in the habit of counting the calories I eat
<cuttle>
and so I can say run if I've gone 300 over budget
<cuttle>
yknow
<cuttle>
*every* individual time you go over calorie budget is as insignificant as that
<cuttle>
but they all add up
<cuttle>
like, someone who eats 2300 calories a day and burns 2000 will get overweight over time
<cuttle>
but the same person eating the same amount of food but running daily will not get overweight
<cuttle>
sure, continuing to eat carelessly but just throwing exercise on top will not solve it
<alextgordon>
I think the problem with 21st century western humans is that we've forgotten that mild hunger is natural, not a disease
<cuttle>
but saying that burning several hundred is insignificant mischaracterizes every aspect of food/calories
<alextgordon>
so we stuff our faces the moment there's even the hint of hunger
<alextgordon>
all this talk of food is making me hungry :P
<alextgordon>
cuttle: I'm not saying it's insignificant, I'm saying it's an insignificant amount of *food*
<alextgordon>
i.e. if you just didn't eat that food, you wouldn't notice it
<cuttle>
well yeah but to keep yourself from eating that food you basically have to count calories
<cuttle>
like, if you don't at least have a vague awareness of the caloric content of most foods
<alextgordon>
not really, just be mindful of portion size
<cuttle>
and at least stay vaguely mindful of it throughout every day
<alextgordon>
and eat slowly
<cuttle>
calories are more important than portion size
<alextgordon>
depends what you're eating
<cuttle>
a small amount of fries has as many calories as like an entire steak
<alextgordon>
shit, I'm done for then :D
<cuttle>
depending on which type of steak
<cuttle>
i mean steaks can go into the thousands lol
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
but potatoes are starch and thus realllly calorie-dense, and also realllly low glycemic index
<joelteon>
steak is fine
<alextgordon>
well, I love potatoes
<cuttle>
joelteon: yeah besides raw calorie count steak is better to eat than fries
<alextgordon>
but did anybody ever think that fries are healthy?
<cuttle>
sure potatoes are great, but they're as bad as sugar for your blood sugar
<joelteon>
no
<cuttle>
alextgordon: what i'm saying is, common wisdom is that it's the grease in fries and burgers
<alextgordon>
I don't know what your diet is like, so I can't really say
<cuttle>
but the worst part is fries and buns
<alextgordon>
but for me, if you're eating healthy food, and you eat sensible portions, it's pretty easy
<alextgordon>
don't need to count calories or whatever
<alextgordon>
just use some common sense
<alextgordon>
oh and don't drink sugary drinks
<cuttle>
what i'm saying is a lot of calorie amounts are contrary to comon sense
<joelteon>
yeah, just /feel/ your way to better health
<cuttle>
or what you'll be aware of if you don't pay attention
<joelteon>
that works for most people
<cuttle>
yeah sugary drinks are easy not to be aware of
<cuttle>
since they don't make you feel full at all
<alextgordon>
cuttle: maybe but I'd like to see an example of a "healthy" thing which is deceptively calorie high
<cuttle>
alextgordon: fruit and fruit juice
<cuttle>
i know you'll say "that's obvious" re juice
<alextgordon>
yeah that's a good one
<alextgordon>
but I know that :P
<cuttle>
i mean fruit isn't that bad really
<alextgordon>
some fruit is, some fruit isn't
<alextgordon>
bananas are really dense
<alextgordon>
strawberries, not so much
<cuttle>
because a lot of it is fiber, which isn't bad for glycemic index I think, and they're a lot less calorie dense than juice
<alextgordon>
(that's a good example for my own question)
<cuttle>
yeah apples and bananas are about 100 calories but a strawberry is 4 calories according to google
<alextgordon>
I lol at people who go to the gym then eat a banana
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
:p
<cuttle>
i hate people who snack on bananas anyway
<cuttle>
like i cannot stand to sit next to someone eating one
<cuttle>
the smell is very strong
<alextgordon>
-34 bananas
<cuttle>
also i hate snacking on them because they make your hands sticky
<purr>
alextgordon: ... if you had any sense, you wouldn't have asked.
<cuttle>
basically because bananas are awful
<joelteon>
lol so i just found out it's illegal for my roommate to be renting my room out
<alextgordon>
hahaha
<cuttle>
well i mean a banana is only 100 calories, so if they're doing a reasonable amount of exercise they're not immediately gaining it back
<cuttle>
though banans are for eating *before* you exercise
<cuttle>
protein and fat is for after
<cuttle>
or else it will become fat
<cuttle>
yknow
<alextgordon>
depends on the type of exercise too
<alextgordon>
if you're doing weight training, it doesn't matter, as long as you eat it long enough before that the energy is available to go to your muscles
<alextgordon>
if you're running on a treadmill to "burn calories" it's a really stupid and counterproductive thing to do
<cuttle>
good point i spose
<alextgordon>
but yeah, people are really ignorant about fruit and fruit juices
<alextgordon>
I still maintain that merely eating healthily and smaller portions is sufficient for most people
<alextgordon>
I think that's the standard medical advice too :P
<alextgordon>
that plus some moderately intense "cardio" of some sort
<alextgordon>
and lay off the sugary drinks
<cuttle>
laying off sugary drinks is definitely an obvious thing to do
<cuttle>
regularly drinking soda is about the stupidest thing to do
<alextgordon>
yep
<cuttle>
but "eat less" is a self control based solution
<cuttle>
in other words it's not a solution
<alextgordon>
at first maybe
<cuttle>
it's a problem you need a solution to
<alextgordon>
but once you internalise it, it isn't
<alextgordon>
like I said, you need to teach yourself that huge portions are unnecessary, and that mild hunger is normal. Then you are enlightened.
<cuttle>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<alextgordon>
cuttle: a lemon is 29 calories!
<alextgordon>
100 of lemon anyway
<alextgordon>
grams
<alextgordon>
eat more lemons
<cuttle>
oh wow lemons are low calorie
<cuttle>
i wish they weren't too sour to just eat by the slice
<cuttle>
:p
<alextgordon>
I love lemons. I have strange tastebuds
<cuttle>
grapefruits are higher calorie but more palatable
<cuttle>
i love sucking on lemons and stuff but not a whole lemon's worth
<cuttle>
lol
<purr>
lol
<joelteon>
i love lemons
<cuttle>
yesterday i woke up sucking a lemon
<alextgordon>
•_O
<cuttle>
not a radiohead fan i see
<cuttle>
that is definitely a sucking on a lemon emote though
<alextgordon>
:D
<joelteon>
i'm not a radiohead fan, but i know that song
<cuttle>
:p
<cuttle>
such a great albuj
<cuttle>
album
<joelteon>
i don't understand what anybody sees in it
<alextgordon>
joelteon: presumably they *listen* to it
<cuttle>
alextgordon: o/
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<cuttle>
(now you say \o)
<cuttle>
(it's high fiving)
<cuttle>
joelteon: what do you listen to?
<alextgordon>
/o\
<joelteon>
ok computer is far superior
<cuttle>
"superior"
<cuttle>
kid a was a *huge* left turn to be sure
<cuttle>
more adventurous and challenging
<cuttle>
takes more repeat listens to get it
<cuttle>
but no worse
<joelteon>
more whiny
<cuttle>
in fact i'd say better
<cuttle>
more falsetto, but whiny implies Simple Plan lyrics
<cuttle>
and that's more their earliest stuff
<cuttle>
so
<cuttle>
also thom yorke has one of the best falsettos in rock
<cuttle>
slash
<cuttle>
electronic or whatever they count as now
<joelteon>
it's alternative rock
alextgordon is now known as alexgordon
<cuttle>
joelteon: is king of limbs alternative rock
<joelteon>
what's that
<cuttle>
their latest album
<cuttle>
or really anything they've put out since kid a
<cuttle>
doesn't really fit in the alt rock box
<cuttle>
:p
<cuttle>
although once a box is as defined as alt rock then most good music will fall outside it
<whitequark>
"It's a very clever idea [emph. mine--wq] concerning the rape and murder of a young girl with a large knife, and continuing to rape the corpse until orgasm. This theme is particularly present in the last four tracks on the album"
<joelteon>
lol???
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
not sure what's particularly funny about it. I just feel like I'm in a whole another universe than a person who considers that a very clever idea
<whitequark>
I'm not exactly judging it, I just don't get it
<whitequark>
maybe I should listen to it / read lyrics