sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku>
.tell WAhVdGsK1 any public key scheme can be used to do that, but they aren't because it's hideously slow. both hash functions and symmetric ciphers are much, much faster. so if you're signing a message, hash it and sign the digest. if you're encrypting, AES encrypt the data and ECIES encrypt the symmetric key
<yoleaux>
maaku: I'll pass your message to WAhVdGsK1.
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<stevenroose>
There is no way to make a bitcoin transaction validly signed, but never valid to be confirmed, right? Like a locktime ad infinitum or so
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<maaku>
stevenroose: a lock-time of 0xffffffff would achieve that, no?
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<andytoshi>
would spending an already-spent input also achieve your goal?
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<maaku>
or generally speaking, spending outputs of an invalid transaction
<sdhand>
stevenroose: how do you mean validly signed?
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<sdhand>
actually never mind, I misread the question, sorry.
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<stevenroose>
maaku: a lock-time of 0xffffffff, is that a valid one in a hundred years or so?
<stevenroose>
it might do that in theory, but it's less nifty
<stevenroose>
and means your concept can't be used in 90 years because then it's an actual near locktime :D
<maaku>
stevenroose: the whole block chain stops working simultaneously as that becomes valid
<maaku>
a lock-time of 2^32 - 1 requires a block timestamp of 2 ^ 32, which is not possible
<maaku>
all chain progress halts
<maaku>
although from a practical standpoint, there'd probably be some sort of hard-fork that we move to, or maybe it's fixed as part of forward blocks and we stop caring about compatibility blocks by then
<maaku>
and the tx would be valid in the forward block
<maaku>
I would do the spend-output-of-invalid-or-already-spent-UTXO solution instead. that's cleaner and always works
<maaku>
*all chain progress halts at UTC time 2^32
<sipa>
what's the point of a transaction that never becomes valid?
<sipa>
that's semantically equivalent with just an invalid tx, as far as i can tell
<maaku>
sipa: I'm guessing, but you could do stuff like sign messages encoded in the outputs
<sipa>
you don't need a transaction for that, though
<maaku>
which provides a signmessage alternative that supports hardware wallets, etc.
<maaku>
with no changes
<sipa>
ah, perhaps!
<maaku>
I've looked at it in the past for that purpose specifically
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<maaku>
or, e.g., proof of reserve
<maaku>
where you make and sign a consolidating tx, but don't actually want it to confirm because you like having more than one utxo
<maaku>
(that would be a good use for lock-time=0xffffffff btw)
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<kanzure>
signmessage threw me for a loop because of its weird format expectations on the underlying message
<kanzure>
or rather, verifymessage.
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<stevenroose>
maaku: sorry for late replies.. yeah thinking about proof of reserve
<maaku>
Is there a historical mining return calculator? E.g. "if I turned on 2Th/s on Dec 12 2017, how much bitcoin would it generate?"
<maaku>
Using actual difficulty adjustments I mean.
<maaku>
I could script something up but it seems like such a tool should exist... my google-fu is failing me.
<stevenroose>
couldn't a locktime 0xfff... cause trouble if the utxos you're trying to proof ownership over also have spending paths with locktimes
<maaku>
No, because locktime would always be >= whatever is being checked
<stevenroose>
yeah so lets say you own the immediate path and someone else owns the locktime path in 2 weeks. if your PoR tx is ad infinitum, you can't get into the path where you own the keys for
<stevenroose>
Not sure how lightning txs or classic multisig wallet backup solutions work with that.
<stevenroose>
I guess with multisigs, you own all the keys for the locktime (= backup) case. Lightning not sure. Is more CSV stuff I'd guess
<maaku>
anything lightning or multisig the other person wold have to sign for the thing you're signing
<maaku>
oh wait i misunderstood your point
<maaku>
stevenroose: for proof of reserve and such I prefer making it invalid by other means
<stevenroose>
maaku: oh, I understood you said proof or reserve was a good use case of the locktime ad infinitum
<maaku>
make it have an empty but invalid input, or an invalid output or something
<stevenroose>
It also makes things harder. F.e. to verify the tx.
<maaku>
well except that you point out it isn't for some escrow things
<stevenroose>
With locktime, you can just see if your mempool accepts it.
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<maaku>
*it isn't possible for some escrows.
<stevenroose>
How do you validate a tx that spends non-existing outpoints
<maaku>
it has a valid preimage input, it's just the input is invalid
<maaku>
..why do you need the utxo set to validate?
<maaku>
these are separate issues.
<maaku>
(1) given input preimages, is the tx hypothetically valid if it's inputs are valid (this is what CheckTransaction does)
<maaku>
and (2) are the inputs actually UTXOs or in the mempool
<maaku>
you don't need (2)
<maaku>
also i don't think you care about things like minimum relay fee
<maaku>
or standardness checks
<stevenroose>
You kinda do if you want to proof how much money you own :D But yeah you could verify other inputs afterwards
<maaku>
which would cause it not to be in the mempool
<sipa>
stevenroose: things with a locktime in the future aren't accepted to the mempool either