sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<PaulTroon>
I'm trying to understand why blocks of proof-of-publication tx's can't be gossiped like bitcoin blocks with out some trusted server or tree-chain
<PaulTroon>
if the publication blocks are connected by single-use-seals in the form of bitcoin tx's
<PaulTroon>
it seems like there can be an unambiguous chain from a genesis publication block + bitcoin tx
<PaulTroon>
maybe it's because there's no cost to create a hidden chain of un-gossiped publication blocks?
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<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: I know how it works in RGB. I assume it's the same? Basically the token data is committed to into the public key of the recipient, in a way that is not visible to a third party without being aware of the data (pay-to-contract). Now, if someone sends you a token, they also have to share with you the history of the token (e.g. via a third party server), in order for you to verify it.
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<PaulTroon>
RubenSomsen: Thanks, trying to understand RGB is what has led me to look at this similar and probably related question.
<PaulTroon>
RubenSomsen: the question would be equivalent to if someone could sign two different token histories.
<PaulTroon>
I assume what prevents that is tracing the value transferred back to some genesis value
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<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: the UTXO model in bitcoin prevents double spends. If your UTXO contains 1 RGB token, this RGB token will move when you spend the UTXO.
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<PaulTroon>
RubenSomsen: so if I understand correctly, you could sign a double spend and produce a history of the token for both, but only one history would actually have been committed to the Bitcoin blockchain
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: you're right that you need to verify the history of the token up until the moment the token was created (genesis)
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: a double spend in RGB would be a double spend in bitcoin, and thus would not be allowed by the bitcoin blockchain
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: the bitcoin signature spending an UTXO is what makes the RGB tokens move
<PaulTroon>
RubenSomsen: perhaps I'm thinking more of an off-chain situation; if the receiver can confirm the chain of transactions were confirmed on the Bitcoin blockchain then they should be confident in the history.
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: so maybe the only off-chain situation then is between two parties with tokens locked in a 2:2 multisig (ala the lightning extension of RGB)
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: In order to be confident of the history, you need to know the output in which the token originated, and verify how it went from there to your UTXO. And on top of that you need to also verify the bitcoin blockchain :)
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: yes, in order to take it off-chain, you send the RGB tokens to a 2:2 multisig, and from there it works just like regular lightning, but instead of changing the amount of BTC, you change the amount of tokens in each channel update.
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<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: I'm starting to get it I think. My interest was in using a different signature scheme (BLS) to validate token transfers but that seems impossible because the UTXOs must be encumbered with signatures understood by the bitcoin blockchain
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: so the off-chain updates would still involve normal (large) ECDSA signatures
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: Correct. RGB as it is designed now works without additional signatures outside the ones provided by bitcoin. You could add signatures inside the commitments as well, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be compared to the added overhead.
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: Perhaps the only benefit to the additional of a non-bitcoin signature commitment is that when you negotiate the update the 2nd party won't update without this parallel signature
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: I don't believe that is a problem in the current protocol. Unless both parties sign, the channel cannot be updated.
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: I know it seems convoluted, but what I'm trying to achieve is a way for off-grid nodes to update token balances over a low bandwidth channel.
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: Perhaps I am not following, are you talking about Lightning channels? Or the third party servers that are storing the data?
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: At some point the off-grid nodes get the short signature they negotiated off-grid, and the on-grid nodes use RGB with the additional check of the short signatures to settle it.
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: I'm talking about lightning channels as proposed in RGB, but the additional encumberances are so off-grid nodes can negotiate transfers with lower bandwidth.
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: Sorry - it's hard to explain, and may be impossible in this framework
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: by off-grid I mean actually not connected to the internet, as opposed to just off-chain lightning transactions
<RubenSomsen>
PaulTroon: like a lower bandwidth way to negotiate channel updates by using BLS? I don't think that will be possible, you will always need the bitcoin signature. I gotta go now. Hope this helped :)
<PaulTroon>
RebuenSomsen: Thanks a lot! yes, very helpful discussion.
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