#bitcoin-wizards on 2018-05-01 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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07:27 <waxwing> good point indeed. having had to deal with similar issues, i know it's a big pain to deal with fees in an interactive protocol.

07:27 <waxwing> the watermarking issue remains, but perhaps not having such a watermark is a bit of a high bar to aim for.

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10:52 <waxwing> am i right in thinking you can get the same effect for eltoo, without sighash_noinput, by just doing the on-chain version, and then at closing time creating one overwriting transaction, with the disadvantage being only that in non-cooperation the publication will/may have to be the entire update set instead of ~ 2 hops with sighash_noinput ?

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11:18 <ZmnSCPxj> Good morning waxwing, my understanding, yes, that is indeed possible

11:19 <ZmnSCPxj> The issue is that in an uncooperative close, every update needs to get published, spending significant blockchain space.

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11:20 <waxwing> yeah, that's how i saw it. it's still of interest though, if only for fun or perhaps for testing. imagine coding it up now and running it with a limitation of say 10-20 updates per channel.

11:20 <waxwing> you also get to avoid having to set up the nlocktime stuff if you don't use sighash_noinput

11:21 <waxwing> but apart from the space usage issue, there may be others, i wonder

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12:06 <ZmnSCPxj> Good morning waxwing, for small numbers of updates it may be feasible to use CSV variant of Spillman channels, which are the basis of invalidation trees

12:07 <ZmnSCPxj> It would be fairly interesting to do things that way, admittedly, but the blockspace usage is very much excessive

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12:08 <ZmnSCPxj> I find the eltoo construction quite similar to OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY actually

12:09 <ZmnSCPxj> you perform an OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY that has a CSV encumberance

12:09 <ZmnSCPxj> which can be gainsaid by an even longer OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY

12:09 <ZmnSCPxj> and so on

12:09 <ZmnSCPxj> this time with incrementing nLockTime

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12:39 <waxwing> oh appears Zmn.. is gone, i'm curious, spillman channels are unidirectional channels, right? not sure the connection, but, also, i don't know what's meant by invalidation trees.

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12:40 <waxwing> oh, i see, it's in the "duplex" part of the wiki page, more to read :)

12:40 <andytoshi> waxwing: invalidation trees are from https://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf

12:40 <andytoshi> yep :P

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