sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
in far future low-subsidy mining environment with arbitrary block weights, are there any interesting differences between a miner taking 1 sat/tx versus 1 sat/(many txns) versus 1 sat/block and versus 1 sat/(many blocks) ?
<kanzure>
s/low-subsidy/zero-subsidy
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<bsm117532>
Well, there's no obvious way for them to decide which txns to include among the txns that have zero fee.
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<bsm117532>
Likewise, there's no reason I'd turn on my mining hardware until the reward for a block was non-zero.
<bsm117532>
So 1 sat/(many blocks) doesn't really work. A block needs to have a non-zero fee or there's no reason to waste electricity mining it.
<bsm117532>
The cost of switching off hardware is basically zero.
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<aj>
1 sat/(many blocks) might be worthwhile in that it lets previous rewards you've earnt age and become spendable
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<aj>
if some blocks have zero reward, you might be at the point where tx sniping is a thing, so you might need to bury profitable blocks you mine to avoid other miners trying to orphan your blocks
<aj>
i don't see why you'd ever mine 0-fee transactions though (except for CPFP or if they pay you directly or similar of course)
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<bsm117532>
aj: Doesn't really cost you anything to mine a 0-fee transaction, if another txn has fees. So might as well just stuff the block full after adding the fee-txns. (No incentive to NOT do that though...)
<aj>
bsm117532: well, there's very slight costs to mining zero fee txns: you have to verify sigs, you may incentivise some people to switch from 1 satoshi to 0 satoshi fees, you might be forgoing sub-satoshi out-of-band fees via lightning or something, but yeah
<bsm117532>
aj: I include any CPU operations and bandwidth as "doesn't really cost you anything" compared to the cost of running mining hardware. If we're twiddling over cpu/bandwidth on the bitcoind server, the mining ecosystem has failed.
<aj>
bsm117532: i'm not following why you'd do something that has no benefit and even trivial cost is all
<bsm117532>
Because the cost of modifying bitcoind is non-zero. ;-) Just run it (and it will include zero-fee txns)
<aj>
bsm117532: isn't there a minimum fee by default still though?
<bsm117532>
For sending yes. But AFAIK the mining code will include zero fee transactions if there is nothing else.
<aj>
bsm117532: i thought there was a min fee for standardness still, so 0 fee stuff doesn't get into the mempool without a configuration change
<aj>
bsm117532: yeah, minrelaytxfee defaults to 0.00001 ?
<aj>
bsm117532: but yes, by the time subsidy is dead and average tx fees are 1 satoshi, i will grant you that default might be reduced to 0 :-P
<bsm117532>
Yes you're right about minrelaytxfee, you'd have to set it to zero.
<bsm117532>
And txn spammers will have a field day.
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<kanzure>
could there be private outsourceable coin selection? if spending 20 more seconds on computation would give a better overall result with more money saved, then often i think the value of that savings could be captured.
<kanzure>
also, if private outsourceable coin selection is workable, then for the really hard situations (with many coins) you could do gpu/fpga/asics.
<kanzure>
i think for privacy sake you could send totally different coin face values that approximate your actual coin face values
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<Murch>
kanzure: BnB already does exhaustive search. You can easily restrict it further by setting a maximum number of inputs or smaller window definition for "exact matches".
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