sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
"Since miners already have the protocol level right to select whatever transaction they prefer (and not mine those they don't), it would be better if a miner could chose to not participate in triggering activation of something they won't use, but, without being a veto to the process (and all the ire they may have to experience as a consequence)."
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<JackH>
yup this is massive
<JackH>
only problem is that is does not cover how to deal with sybil attacks, and neither how the activation is handled by non upgraded nodes and how they would perceive non locked-in rules and not orphan those changes
<JackH>
or how this would even prevent a chain fork for that matter
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<JackH>
from the looks of it, this is useless and might as well be called a delayed-hard-fork-by-participating-nodes
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<kanzure>
JackH: it's the same as a receiver not giving you a P2SH address if they wish to not use P2SH. they should give you merely some P2PKH.
<JackH>
yeah but the way I see it, the problem is that this activates rules that wont be accepted by all nodes, and thus ignored (block orphaned)
<kanzure>
why would a backwards compatible transaction be rejected? haha
<kanzure>
by definition it's valid
<JackH>
hmm
<warren>
JackH: not true, it redefines a current block validation rule that is currently "ALWAYS TRUE" to "SOMETIMES TRUE DEPENDING ON <CONDITIONS"
<JackH>
the write up is vague
<JackH>
wait where do you see this?
<warren>
that's what any soft-fork is
<JackH>
what you are saying is that you and I can activate this between ourselves now and do what we wish irrespective of the network, and yet have our transactions accepted
<warren>
Regarding "how the activation is handled by non upgraded nodes", those nodes are mostly protected by the fact that older versions by default do not relay this newer form of transaction as it is considered non-standard by relay rules.
<kanzure>
miners can be segwit-validating without being segwit-block-mining
<kanzure>
by employing segwit validation, these miners can be sure that they do not mine segwit-incompatible transactions
<JackH>
this also means only certain miners will mine our transaction
<JackH>
since it is non-standard
<warren>
Rather than "redefine", I should have said that it narrows a current block validation rule that is currently ALWAYS TRUE to CAN BE TRUE IF <CONDITION>
<JackH>
hmm so this would allow for something like a braided blockchain basically? so that anyone that sends non standard transactions, as long as a miner accepts them, can still send transactions such as segwit enabled transactions
<JackH>
but....
<warren>
important that SF's accepted by the ecosystem do not take away existing rights, and this is the case.
<JackH>
hmm
<JackH>
yeah thats fine
<JackH>
you just make it sound like there can then be localized rules between nodes
<JackH>
in that case, how come we did not always have this?
<warren>
mmm, what I talk about above is general about all past SF's, not this particular user activated SF proposal
<JackH>
we need a better writeup on the logic of both on how this activates and is actually used
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<dgenr8>
I will accept the results of the election. If I win.
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<_Iriez>
Why does luke persist in trying to communicate that consensus means 100% agreement?
<_Iriez>
He's damaging the discussion with his unrealistic and outright false assumption
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<_Iriez>
Its impossible to thrawrt misinformation when we have a active large contributor perpetuating falsehoods.
<_Iriez>
I spend a enormous amount of my personal time combating this misinformation war against the community, but stuff like this infuriates me because it undoes all the work I do to support Core.
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<fluffypony>
_Iriez: #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev
<fluffypony>
otherwise stay on topic
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<Taek>
I realized (with my brother) that you could use smart property to secure p2p loans
<Taek>
you can have an asset which is exclusive and is only useful to the owner of that asset according to the blockchain
<Taek>
this asset could be digital or physical
<Taek>
in the example of a house, the house would only unlock for people holding public keys that had been authorized by some master key
<Taek>
where ownership of the master key is defined on a blockchain
<Taek>
if you wish to get a loan, you could put up the smart property as leverage
<Taek>
and the terms could be 'if X amount is not paid back in Y months, the secure property is transferred to the loan counterparty"
<Taek>
then you can still use the house as though you own it entirely
<Taek>
and you get your loan money right away
<belcher>
what happens if someone without authorization breaks the window of the house and gets inside that way?
<Taek>
but you eventually lose the house through decentralized means if you fail to pay back the loan in time
<Taek>
belcher: house is just an example
<Taek>
I know that smart property as a whole is pretty shaky
<Taek>
but imagine if you were leveraging something like your reddit account
<belcher>
From what i see stuff in the real world (land, houses, cars, physical property) is ultimately controlled by force i.e. men with guns. A blockchain cant influence those, it can only influence cryptographic stuff like bitcoins.
<belcher>
If the smart contract had code for controlling your reddit account, the reddit company could override it since they ultimately control accounts on their website
<Taek>
ultimately, yes. But it's not too hard for me to imagine that we'd one day end up with something like a decentralized Reddit
<Taek>
or at least some sort of decentralized identity that you could leverage
<belcher>
yes okay, so something without a central point of trust
<belcher>
bitmessage email addresses too
<belcher>
well not those.. since once you've told someone the private key you cant take it back
<Taek>
I don't know that there are any really strong examples of smart property
<Taek>
but I think that in the next 5 years we will probably see a few
<belcher>
but maybe bitmessage email addresses where each email is sent to a new pubkey, generated from a bip32-style sequence, and you need some kind of hash preimage to get the private key, then if you dont pay back your loan the smart contract doesnt reveal any more hash preimages and therefore you're locked out of your email account
<bsm117532>
"smart property" is only as good as the linkage between the database record and the asset. a.k.a. counterparty risk.
<waxwing>
i've often mused you could do something clever with a strong lockbox and a video camera feed inside. making the video feed unspoofable is an exercise for the reader. TPM or something.
<waxwing>
you can't replicate cryptographic strength in the real world ('men with guns') but there may be a way to imitate blinding (consider 10 million boxes and no one knows which one contains the gold bars)
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<Taek>
and I don't think relying on centralized systems is necessarily a bad thing either. If you've got reddit agreeing to honor the results of any smart contract, then you get near-permissionless interoperability with other systems. At worst, reddit could reneg, but it's possible that they won't even know why account ownership is changing hands