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<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: I'm aware that you wrote a famous proof many years ago that decentralized consensus was impossible (as part of your work on Wikipedia, I believe). Any chance you could provide a link to that proof? I can't find it by Googling.
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<gmaxwell>
Jeremy_Rand[m]: no way man, I just came up with the same proof that lamport did in the 70s.
<gmaxwell>
you're picking up on some rbtc out of context bullshit.
<gmaxwell>
Where I explained to a reporter that I only ran bitcoin passively for a few months before getting involved at the end of 2010 beginning 2011 becuase I hadn't seen the whitepaper and descriptions I'd seen of it were basically claiming it couldn't be secure (because they were claiming that it did something I /knew/ was impossible with the kind of knowing that only comes by independantly arriving at
<gmaxwell>
the proof)... once I saw the white paper I saw that this wasn't what was being claimed at all and it was much more exciting.
<gmaxwell>
The proof is stated informally just this: if you have a decenteralized system then no one controls admission, anyone could be a member, and so at any point when you think you've settled on a consensus more participants should show up from outside of your light cone (or more frequently, across a network partition), and overrule you.
<gmaxwell>
So such a system can never come to consensus.
<gmaxwell>
Bitcoin avoids the issue by not worrying about coming to consensus, but having a real cost and having the probablity of reorg (under certian plausable assumptions) continue to decrease over time.
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<gmaxwell>
But if you look at how other people describe bitcoin early on, and also how the software worked: it looked like confirmations were just counting peers. E.g. classical byzantine consensus, which can't be decenteralized due to the aformentioned more participants show up problem.
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<gmaxwell>
The reason I'd ever considered this problenm before is back when we created the Wikimedia foundation, some contributors to wikipedia argued that there should be no orginization to host servers but we should create a totally decenteralized protocol 'like bittorrent' to run the site. And I argued that what people were asking for couldn't be done.
<sn0wmonster>
gmaxwell: speaking of decentralized and wikimedia, after I can safely spend less time on ##taskhive I have been considering a decentralized news sharing network utilizing a potential combination of bitmessage, IPFS, and Tor, with a WoT of imported/verified credentials of journalists and independent witnesses (photos, first-response perspectives) to help weed out the censored news while not promoting "fake" news either. do you
<sn0wmonster>
have any advice on how such a thing could be implemented? I have not sat down and done the math yet because i'm still focused on taskhive, but its a topic i am very curious about.
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<gmaxwell>
I doubt something like that can be implemented in a way that offers interesting security properties.
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<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: actually I don't read r/btc (the people on there are deranged); my impression was based on a video of a talk you gave (I think it was at the SF Bitcoin meetup, a few months before Elements was released)
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: and just in case I was ambiguous, I definitely wasn't looking for info about that proof for any reason related to r/btc's dislike of you; it just sounded like an interesting proof and I was curious how it worked (partially because I was curious what Bitcoin's workaround to it was)
<gmaxwell>
Ah, well I hope I answered. (I could also go dig up the WP posts related to this but honestly, I'd rather not link to them because they'll be excerpted out of context to attack me :( )
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<midnightmagic>
Brutal.. so many irccloud people in here.
<midnightmagic>
You know, irccloud-using people, irccloud records, permanently, everything you've ever said through their service including PM, right?
* midnightmagic
grumbles
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: understandable. Your desire for privacy (especially given the general viciousness of some people who are obsessed with smearing you) definitely outweighs my idle curiosity, so I'll make do with the summary you provided (which is definitely interesting, so thank you for that).
<gmaxwell>
also lamports "Time, Clocks, and the ordering of events in a distributed system" is a great read.
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<gmaxwell>
And covers most of what I was talking about-- though I wasn't aware of that paper until after I started working on Bitcoin.
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: cool, I'll add that to my "things to read" list
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<sn0wmonster>
midnightmagic: that's shitty, but there's nothing guaranteeing freenode not doing the same is there?
<midnightmagic>
sn0wmonster: Freenode has never demonstrated that they actually do it. Ever, as far as I know. irccloud demonstrates it all the time. It is irrelevant, completely whether Freenode *could* do it, since irccloud *does* do it, including PMs.
<sn0wmonster>
I agree irccloud is creepy for doing it
<midnightmagic>
Not only that, but irrcloud has you sign an agreement saying you're okay with it, just to use their service. Freenode does not. Except none of us agreed to it, so in many places, this recording is probably illegal.
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
midnightmagic: If it's a public IRC channel, there's no way to prevent it from being logged as long as some unknown people are present. If it's PM, use OTR regardless of whether you have evidence of logging by an intermediary.
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<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
I honestly don't see why you're so worried about irccloud specifically
<gmaxwell>
irccloud doesn't let their users use OTR.
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: Oh. Didn't know that. Okay yes, that is crappy behavior and no one should use them then.
<gmaxwell>
Jeremy_Rand[m]: because he knows for a fact that they log private message traffic, because they _sent_ him the logs of someone else previously.
<gmaxwell>
midnightmagic: perhaps we should get someone to make an irssi plugin that ignores all PM traffic from irccloud users and responds with a canned message that you're terribly sorry but you're ignoring them because irccloud logs private message traffic.
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
gmaxwell: I fully agree that a PM method that disallows encryption should never be used. But I think it would be unwise to assume that Freenode isn't logging PM's, especially since Freenode servers have been compromised before (apparently for months before anyone noticed).
<gmaxwell>
I agree that it's unwise to assume that, but still: at least freenode denies that they do.
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<gmaxwell>
meaning that if you ever caught them there would be hell to pay. So thats an incentive to keep whatever logging they do secret.
<gmaxwell>
Which is actually protective on average.
<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
Agreed.
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<sn0wmonster>
agreed
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<bramc>
feedback would be greatly appreciated. In particular I have a hack in there to reduce the hashing load by about 10% which costs a byte of security
<bramc>
And I suspect people will shit on that one from a great height
<bramc>
There's another hack which reduces security by two bits and results in about half the amount of hashing and things being cleaner in memory and generally makes things simpler. That one I'm quite confident in.
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<midnightmagic>
Jeremy_Rand[m]: That doesn't stop the fact that a third party recording PM as a matter of course is probably illegal regardless of whethere it's over a private channel or private PMs.