sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<gmaxwell>
consider all the fringe altcoins out there, most of them are still 'working' fine, and yet most of them if I felt like it I could go blow up in one way or another given a couple hours... be it via overpowering reorgs, or sybil attacks partioning the hashpower, or exploiting consensus bugs...
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<Taek>
I would agree that most altcoins out there are very vulnerable. But I would also point to departures from the Bitcoin codebase as the source of most of those vulnerabilities.
<Taek>
Hmm, well I would also assert that the hashrate needs to hit a minimum threshold as well.
<Taek>
But I would propose e
<Taek>
*e.g. Dogecoin as having met that minimum (other issues aside)
<gmaxwell>
chainforks are racing, and if miners are rational, they'll move between chain forks (even whole systems) based on where they think the greatest fee income is... if your chain stops advancing the security falls away, even in the past.
<gmaxwell>
dogecoins hashrate is mostly litecoin, the marginal returns for mining dogecoin are tiny, if we imagine perfectly rational miners with sufficient automation... they'd all start mining some dodge coin fork if it were incentivized with a trivial amount of fees..
<gmaxwell>
(in practice this isn't currently the case due to a mixture of altruism and lazyness in writing the optimal mining software)
<Taek>
Oh I thought they had incompatible pow
<gmaxwell>
no, unless it changed again it's MM with litecoin.
<Eliel>
Taek: it's not PoW compatibility but rather if your mining hardware can do both or not.
<Eliel>
Bitcoin miners are pretty much stuck with Bitcoin or Namecoin (if that's still alive).
<Taek>
Eliel: agreed on that point. Except for ethereum (being the big dog of the GPU mined coins) any GPU altcoin I think has marginal security at best
<Eliel>
Are there any coins where they actually managed to keep it so CPU is the best tool for mining?
<mryandao>
none
<Taek>
Not that I know of, for any top-100 coin a superior GPU implementation is usually out within a week
<Taek>
Often closed-source at that
<Eliel>
Taek: do you think any coin has an algorithm that wouldn't eventually be overrun by ASIC hardware if the coin became valuable enough?
<Taek>
Ethereum, because there's the very real risk that they'd hardfork your investment to nothing.
<mryandao>
^ lol
<Taek>
But that's not an algorithmic defense
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<Eliel>
erm... yes, not an algorithmic defense. Which means that if someone does it, they do it stealthily.
<Eliel>
... which is a prospect that I don't especially like.
<Taek>
I personally think there will be ascis for all sufficiently valuable algorithms, even memory based ones. But that's more a high level thought than one based on knowledge of how to build a fast/cheap memory based asic
<Taek>
(and I include the cuckoo cycle in that, but only because I expect that given enough potential return someone would find a way to hardware optimize the problem)
<Taek>
It's possible that you could write a proof that any hardware optimization for a particular algorithm would generalize to commodity cpus
<gmaxwell>
I think it's likely not actually possible to do that, you would have to use every transistor and IO pin of the cpu equally. and even if you do, someone can make an optimized version that leaves out part of the cpu then skips nonces that would hit it. what if every run uses every part? well you unroll the cpu, pipeline it, and leave out the parts that aren't used...
<gmaxwell>
and I think lots of the IO parts of a cpu are wired up to things that you can't usefully use in a POW.
<gmaxwell>
So if nothing else you can optimize by removing those.
<Taek>
And even then you only bring back the botnet vs. mining pool tradeoff
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<Jeremy_Rand[m]>
Eliel: Namecoin is still alive and developed, although I admit we've been neglecting the public engagement as of late, so it's totally excusable that you weren't sure.
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<rodarmor>
I started to read it, but it is long and dense, so I'm selfishly hoping someone can give me a tl;dr on whether they think it'll work. I roughly understand the algorithm, but not every detail of it, where, as we know, the devil is.
<kanzure>
"we can select a set of n verifiers, from the set of all users, ... "
<kanzure>
(page 18)
<rodarmor>
kanzure: What strikes you about that section as being problematic?
<kanzure>
same problems as alays, such as sybil
<kanzure>
*always
<rodarmor>
kanzure: I did read that the algorithm relies on 1/3 of the money being in honest hands, so a simple sybil attack is not possible.
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