2015-10-30 00:53
sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development |
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<
nicolagreco >
kanzure, bsm1175321 have you seen vuvuzela?
09:09
<
fluffypony >
I have like 3 of those in my cupboard
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<
fluffypony >
oh you mean the software
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<
nicolagreco >
ha! ^
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<
maaku >
;seen vuvuzela
11:47
<
maaku >
.seen vuvuzela
11:47
<
yoleaux >
I haven't seen vuvuzela around.
11:47
* fluffypony
chuckles
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<
nicolagreco >
I meant "have you read vuvuzela", the paper similar to riposte, riffle and cmix
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<
bsm1175321 >
oooh nicolagreco that's a great ref, thanks!!!
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<
nicolagreco >
I have got a question, maybe the answer is trivial, but why blockchains are hashchains and not history trees?
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<
bsm1175321 >
Because you need a single agreed upon global state. A history tree (like git) has many valid histories. Having a single state means we agreed that I transferred coins to you, and that there don't exist two histories, one where I transferred the coins, and one where I didn't.
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<
bsm1175321 >
FWIW I am working on bringing "merging" to my brads idea -- being able to merge histories rather than orphaning one.
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<
nicolagreco >
"Because you need a single agreed upon global state"
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<
nicolagreco >
what you make the miners agree on is the root of the history tree
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<
bsm1175321 >
The root of the history tree is the "genesis block" and basically
*defines* the currency. Other genesis blocks define another currency (such as namecoin/litecoin/dogecoin/etc)
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<
nicolagreco >
when I mean history tree I refer to Crosby's "Efficient data structures for tamper-evident logs"
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<
nicolagreco >
oh but in an history tree
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<
nicolagreco >
the genesis block would just be the first block in the "log" backed by the history tree
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<
bsm1175321 >
I believe this is basically identical to how git works, but correct me if I'm wrong.
14:06
<
nicolagreco >
miners agree on the root, and check that the history is consistent and the initial X is the genesis block
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<
bsm1175321 >
Oh I see -- this idea has been mentioned before in the context of SPV wallets.
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<
bsm1175321 >
SPV wallets currently keep the "hash chain" of block headers.
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<
bsm1175321 >
It's possible to make a tree out of that hash chain and achieve the same security at log(n) space. This idea comes up occasionally here...
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<
bsm1175321 >
But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree.
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<
bsm1175321 >
Since one cannot recover the proof-of-work from the root of such a tree.
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<
maaku >
bsm1175321: the solution is to have block header tree commitments
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<
bsm1175321 >
^^ what maaku says. Is this idea anywhere near being realized?
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<
maaku >
rusty and I did some work on it ... 18 months ago? was it really that long ago?
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<
maaku >
anyway, there's some R&D that needs to be done on what the best commitment structure is
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<
maaku >
recursive MMR was the best 'generic' structure, but rusty was finding some (ugly, imho) custom structures to be slightly faster. i'm hopeful a generic structure as good as the magic-number special case structures can be found
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<
maaku >
other than that, there's just a minimal amount of engineering effort to actually make and check the commitments
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<
bsm1175321 >
I might end up picking up the torch of "light client security model" and include that with UTXO set commitments...we need implementations for testing.
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<
maaku >
bsm1175321: may I suggest working on a talk for Scaling Bitcoin 3?
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<
bsm1175321 >
Good suggestion. Can you link your existing work?
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<
bsm1175321 >
I can't promise, I want to finish this braids stuff too. But the two are related (because both of these light client security proposals increase validation time)
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<
nicolagreco >
"But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree."
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<
nicolagreco >
not if you make this part of the consensus/verification
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<
maaku >
nicolagreco: that's what was just said ^
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<
nicolagreco >
maaku: whoops, still reading
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<
nicolagreco >
bsm1175321: keep me posted about the braids idea
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<
nicolagreco >
bsm1175321: or if I can help some how, I will definitely put some time thinking in that direction for a bit in the coming months
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<
nicolagreco >
maaku is there some work I can see read on this?
14:36
<
bsm1175321 >
Well we've entered a "quiet period" with the SEC due to some other things going on at my company (check Reddit), which likely gives me free rein to work on longer-term projects. ;-)
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<
nsh >
you perfected cold fusion? neato
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<
nicolagreco >
kanzure: thanks! first time I see it
15:03
<
nicolagreco >
I already see a great intersection with my list
15:03
<
nicolagreco >
wow, this list is huge
15:04
<
kanzure >
it's just stuff i've been reading
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<
nicolagreco >
kanzure: have you read them all?
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<
kanzure >
for some value of "reading", yes. every symbol on every page? no...
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<
nicolagreco >
that is still a long list, thanks for sharing this
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<
nicolagreco >
we should categorize them like andrej karpathy does for nlp
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<
nicolagreco >
s/nlp/nlp papers/
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<
bsm117532 >
I suppose a light client a la the Kiayias/Lamprou/Stouka paper above couldn't verify retargets... :-/
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