sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mdavid613 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Aranjedeath has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
sdaftuar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Noldorin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
rusty2 is now known as rusty
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
ruby32 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
tromp_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thorie has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bustd_soket has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bustd_soket has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
whphhg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
[7] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
N0S4A2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gabridome_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gabridome_ has quit [Client Quit]
oneeman has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
ausux has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
ausux has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RedEmerald has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
otoburb has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ausux has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
superkuh has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
otoburb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
whphhg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RedEmerald has joined #bitcoin-wizards
superkuh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
superkuh has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
superkuh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
licnep has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
rubensayshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
huseby has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
huseby has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nicolagreco> I am a big fan of silvio micali, did anyone read his last work https://arxiv.org/abs/1607.01341 ?
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Logicwax has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Logicwax has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32d has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32d has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<bsm1175321> nicolagreco: I'm tired of this refrain that bitcoin is "wasteful". PoW ties the value of BTC to the real world. Without that, your coin is worthless.
<maaku> bsm1175321: what you're really saying is that lack of trust is wasteful
<maaku> the waste still existw
<bsm1175321> maaku: not at all, one can have distributed consensus (PAXOS, Honey Badger) without mining, but no one should or will pay for individual database rows. The fast settlement of Bitcoin is achieved because the database row IS the asset, through PoW. Without mining, your solution will be relegated to an IOU system tracking external value.
<maaku> bsm1175321: point is if we all trusted each other, and that trust was magically unbreakable, the simple database is sufficient
<bsm1175321> maaku: My point is that Byzantine fault tolerant databases exist.
<bsm1175321> Trust is not the issue.
maaku has left #bitcoin-wizards ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."]
MaxSan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<waxwing> expenditure of energy to display fitness (in nature, peacock feathers, or things like expensive bank buildings) are not necessarily wasteful, if they avoid ultra-expensive conflict
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
rubensayshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dEBRUYNE__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
afk11 has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in]
dEBRUYNE__ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<amiller_> nicolagreco, i think the assumptions in this paper are a bit strong
<amiller_> 1. Honest Majority of Users: A given majority (e.g., 75%) of the users are honest.
<amiller_> 2. Honest Majority of Money: Honest users own a given majority of the money in the system.
<amiller_> that's pretty similar to the typical proof of stake setting
<amiller_> i don't know yet how this compares to all the other proof of stake papers this doesn't cite especially https://arxiv.org/abs/1406.5694
<amiller_> also "Honest users own a given majority of the money in the system." doesn't seem like a well defined assumption
<katu_> it works pretty well in practice. the problem with PoS is not this assumption, but that past ownership still retains vote about the future
<amiller_> i think that assumption is likely to break down exactly when there is a fork, and so for a moment there's more than the total amount of money or its unclear which is the right ownershi
thorie has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<amiller_> and those are exactly the confusing / unintuitive scenarios where it would be nice to fall back on formal reasoning
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has quit [Changing host]
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuke_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
afk11 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
afk11 has quit [Changing host]
afk11 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rubensayshi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
mdavid613 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n- has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
c0rw1n- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcomp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Starduster has quit []
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
jannes has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Chris_Stewart_5> In the sidechains whitepaper, it says that we need to "change Bitcoin blockheaders to commit to all of its ancestors instead of just the block header before it"
<Chris_Stewart_5> however, don't blockheaders already commit to all if its ancestors by way of including the previous blockhash, which links to it's previous block hash and so on?
<amiller_> Chris_Stewart_5, yeah that's a good point, the intended meaning is about committing efficiently
<Chris_Stewart_5> Ok, so we can go from O(n) to O(1)?
<amiller_> O(n) to O(log n) with a simple tree
<Chris_Stewart_5> amiller_: How do you build this tree? For instance if I provide a block header of height n, what are my left nodes and right nodes? (n-1,n-2)?
<Chris_Stewart_5> Oh wait.. the leaves or the actual blockheaders... nvm
<Chris_Stewart_5> are*
<amiller_> it's easy to append to a binary tree only ever touching log n nodes
<amiller_> the tree for block n will naturally share most of the branches with the tree for block n-1
<Chris_Stewart_5> True
<Chris_Stewart_5> Apparently with these skiplists no rebalancing is needed either which is intruiging
<Chris_Stewart_5> amiller_: The paper uses the word 'provers' a couple times but I don't see a definition, what exactly is meant by this?
<Chris_Stewart_5> From what I am inferring it seems like it is extra burden on bitcoin node operators to go and validate blockheaders
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
edvorg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Logicwax has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
stri8ed has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stri8ed has quit [Client Quit]
Logicwax has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Starduster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n- has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
c0rw1n- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<amiller_> Chris_Stewart_5, yeah it would be overhead for miners/validators to have to validate the updated trees in block headers
<amiller_> but it seems like it would be a trivial amount
<amiller_> you wouldn't need to transmit any extra information
<amiller_> the SPV verifier should keep some state, including the previous block header, and the previous O(log n) merkle tree hashes
<amiller_> that's all you need in order to append to the tree
<amiller_> it's a little bit more complicated for implementing reorgs but maybe not too bad still
<petertodd> amiller_: speaking of, have you ever tried that with my pruned MMR implementation?
<amiller_> petertodd, i haven't
<amiller_> nor with brams
<petertodd> amiller_: you should - it extracts those O(log n) merkle tree tip hashes automatically for you
[d__d] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
[d__d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[d__d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[d__d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
luke-jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Joseph__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Joseph__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
nuke_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
gielbier has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: so I'm relatively certain that a previous draft of SegWit did include a commitment specifically intended for merged mining. jl2012 actually notified Namecoin devs about its existence in January. Is there any documentation on why that got removed from the final spec?
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> looks like it was removed by https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/commit/5574301656f61142e45540e33dbe88b397a89a93 ... petertodd, sorry to bother you, but is there any documentation on why that change was made?
ruby32 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ruby32 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<nicolagreco> thanks amiller_ I will look into it
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
murch has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
luke-jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcomp_ has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
pro has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
MaxSan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
skang404` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanot1eruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanotheruser has quit [Disconnected by services]
justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser
skang404 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igotcompetence has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
MoALTz has quit [Quit: Leaving]
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards