sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm1175321>
So I'm looking for a place to develop and test some new advanced features for bitcoin (specifically, braids, sharding, light wallet improvements), and I'd rather not make a new coin. What coin would be accepting of a hard fork, and is relatively up-to-date with Bitcoin Core? Viacoin? Dogecoin? Monero? Something else?
<bsm1175321>
The reason to use an existing coin, rather than a testnet, is that (1) some of these are deeper changes to Bitcoin than anything we've seen before and will require a higher level of vetting and proof. I expect a testnet may last *years*. (2) Real transaction volume, and real attacks are a valuable learning experience. (3) I want testing with a hard-fork, *itselt*.
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<othe>
monero is not based on bitcoin at all :)
<bsm1175321>
othe: I know, but I mention it specifically because it is one of the best-developed coins! ;-)
<othe>
we have hardforks twice a year
<othe>
so yeah we accept basically everything that makes sense :x
<bsm1175321>
The different codebase means that ideas could be tested on Monero, but you'd still have to run a test on a Satoshi-derived coin also.
<bsm1175321>
Since any code would have to be re-implemented for the other.
<othe>
that´s true, and stuff that might work for btc won´t even work for us
<instagibbs>
well, if you're doing a huge HF, I don't think it really matters
<instagibbs>
meaning just implement it wherever is most receptive
<bsm1175321>
Yeah that's what I'm fishing for. ;-) I'm also fishing for any coin which is keeping up with core's patches.
<fluffypony>
I doubt any of them are
<othe>
none of them are up2date
<othe>
it´s not like they care about security patches and stuff like that...
<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: Monero would definitely be receptive to basically any (reasonable, documented) thing you want to try
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<fluffypony>
and even though the codebase is different the fundamentals are largely the same
<bsm1175321>
I'll give Monero a serious look. It has long struck me as having the most serious dev community of any altcoin.
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<tromp>
is Monero still planning to upgrade the PoW?
<othe>
yes but we need to get ringct out first i suppose, 2 critical upgrades at once are too dangerous
<bsm117532>
I've been meaning to read that paper...
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<instagibbs>
i skimmed the paper this morning trying to grok the delta from CT, didn't quite catch it because the paper is mostly focusing on other stuff.
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<instagibbs>
CT as done in elements*
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<bsm117532>
Actually today I'm reading about Verifiable Secret Sharing, which is probably very closely related to RingCT...
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<kanzure>
the "Efficient zero knowledge contingent payments in cryptocurrencies without scripts" paper has been updated http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/451.pdf
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<amiller_>
i havent paid close attention to that one
<amiller_>
i guess it figures out how to embed the nizk proof system into an ecdsa public key?
<amiller_>
rather than into a hash
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<kanzure>
wait what was wrong with this one:
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<kanzure>
12:51 < kanzure> "what if you had to use your own salted version of blockchain data as your private key and make proofs based on that"
<kanzure>
besides increasing bandwidth requirements everywhere, it would seem like some sort of interactive protocol to determine if the receiver of a (soon to be initialized by you) payment is in fact validating bitcoin, would at the very least be a useful method to confirm that someone is actually using bitcoin and perhaps even rule validation
<tromp>
that 451.pdf says that
<tromp>
The vast majority
<kanzure>
in the past the node incentivization ideas have mostly been about tying operation of a node to receiving a bitcoin subsidy or reward
<tromp>
of the miners will include a transaction T in a new block only if isStandard(T )
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<kanzure>
instead of tying mining to node operation and validation (e.g. by outsourcing blockchain data lookup required for your super nonce or whatever), it should be pushed to the p2p layer for address formats and payment protocols between users, who should mutually coerce each other into providing some sort of proof that both parties are validating and storing blockchain data, ideally that they are consensus-compatible but a reduced version ...
<kanzure>
... should be okay
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<instagibbs>
tromp, p2sh made most transaction types possible to propagate afaik
<tromp>
i cant seem to find an isStandard function in bitcoin source code...
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<kanzure>
it could be an interactive protocol where the payer and recipient exchange some requests that once completed would reasonably confirm to both parties that the other person is really using validation-enforced bitcoin rather than validationless bitcoin
<instagibbs>
eh it was on topic until we start diving into code
<kanzure>
"confirming validation-enforced bitcoin use" at a payment level would probably suffer from outsourcing issues.... folks would probably outsource any of their requirements to some centralized server.
<kanzure>
heh you could use this as an excuse to add pay-to-IP-address back into th ecosystem; at the very least someone would have to register lots of IP addresses if they were to offer a centralized service, which might become prohibitively expensive for them. (you would connect to the bitcoin node on the IP address and there would be some other protocol steps to verify that the remote machine actually has the capability to perform bitcoin ...
<kanzure>
... validation)
<kanzure>
or: it could be in the form of a payment which remains locked until some computationally expensive operation is completed based on blockchain data. the recipient doesn't need to be already validating, but they do need to eventually validate; whether they pay for that validation at a centralized service can't be controlled through this, but it could at least force an increase in the amount of total validation work being performed in the ...
<kanzure>
... ecosystem.
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<kanzure>
if there was a way to get an audit log of someone's validation of history, perhaps with salted blockchain data somehow, and if there was a way to verify that the audit log is correct w.r.t actual history and actual salt, and perhaps if the salt is somehow tied into various private keys (which would provide the incentive to not outsource this operation), then you could check the audit log and check their keys to confirm that someone ...
<kanzure>
... somewhere is doing validation.
<kanzure>
"yeah forcing full history validation for every future payment seems like a totally reasonable performance target for next umpteen million transactions" hehe
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<kanzure>
also you could directly tie network capacity increases to the amount of salted validation (if we could be convinced and reasonbly confident that the validation is not centralized into one giant owner-operator) because people would have a disincentive to increase capacity due to the high friction of making valid payments under that scheme
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<kanzure>
if the friction between users was too great but the demand for bitcoin transactions high enough, you could soft-fork in a rule to prefer transactions using that scheme in some outsider independent way.
<kanzure>
*if the friction using that scheme between users was too great
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<kanzure>
such a soft-fork could specify a mix of parameters such as, a capacity increase but a certain percentage of transactions in a block must be the validation-proof-carrying type (though there's no way to tell the actual distribution of real-world computation of that validation work, perhaps a metric related to different chunks of recently active subsets of the transaction graph would be sufficient)
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<kanzure>
it's interesting that private key distribution is somewhat decentralized, even with massive web wallets with (so-claimed) large holdings. i suspect part of the reason for this is that nobody in their right mind would choose to make a payment to someone who gives you their private key (which breaks the idea of transferring value to someone else's control, e.g. the point of a transaction). so tying more things up with those private ...
<kanzure>
... keys seems like a reasonable direction to explore.
<kanzure>
it's appealing in some of the same ways that "users bring coin history with them from their wallets when making a transaction" re: utxo set pruning and deep history proofs. push lots of weird work out to the edges of the system to individual users and their lite clients etc.
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