sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc>
I had what may be a very good idea
<gmaxwell>
Kill him.
<gmaxwell>
:P
<gwillen>
c.c
<bramc>
Kill who?
<sipa>
the idea
<bramc>
My idea seems to fix the last lingering issue with proofs of space (other than the working things being convoluted and ridiculous)
<bramc>
Er, well, reduce it anyway, I need to work through the details
<bramc>
The idea is a tweak to the idea of making it so that the challenge at each generation is based not on the one immediately previous, but a ways back. This obviously gives more time for grinding, so I don't like the suggested number of 100, but just a few isn't a problem
<bramc>
Anyway, that trick mitigates but doesn't fix the problem of withholding attacks, where someone can have a local best value but withhold it in favor of a local second best value because that one gives them a great value in the next generation. The attack doesn't work as well because your benefit isn't immediate and hence it's more likely to fall behind earlier, so it only works when you have a local near tie
<bramc>
So my improvement on this is to note that the real issue here is that you can locally see what later challenges each of your local values will create in the future, which allows you to make judgements about whether to withhold immediately
<bramc>
The fix for that is surprisingly simple (assuming that you're already using my proofs of time idea): You make it so that each block determines the challenge for, say, 20 blocks in the future, but to find out the challenge you need to do 4 average blocks worth of proof of time after it and it's the output of that which determines the challenge
<bramc>
I believe this is a good idea, but I again apologize for the complexity, and it has another problem: If you have a just missed it result at time n but a good one at time n+1, you can make your just missed it result beat out the competition
<bramc>
Which might put me back at square 1 because that attack is similar to the possible attacks when each challenge is based on the proof of time of the previous block
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<bramc>
Here's an idea: Maybe the amount of time in the time challenge for each block is based on the quality of the previous block, not its own
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<bramc>
Or maybe it's even based on the block which determined the challenge
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<bramc>
hmm, doesn't work either, same problem applies just the order of good versus just missed is reversed
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<Taek>
^ A publication journal/website that focuses on accepting all content, including things like reddit AMAs - as long as it's high-signal
<Taek>
They already have an [empty] section for CryptoCurrency
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<Taek>
I think my biggest criticism would be that there doesn't seem to be a great way to navigate between ideas that may be related
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<nsh>
if only there were some kinda.... better text, like, a hypertext or something, to facilitate that sort of thing
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<AdrianG>
is anyone working on ddos attack mitigation, like the recent dust attack?
<bsm1175321>
I have some ideas, I wouldn't say I'm *working* on it though.
<AdrianG>
ddos are way cheaper than 51%, and are effective to some extent.
<bsm1175321>
I think we should stop p2p relaying transactions for free. Every transaction should be PoW mined a little bit to be relayed.
<bsm1175321>
e.g. use hashcash as it was originally envisioned.
<AdrianG>
ie pay before it gets propagated?
<bsm1175321>
Not pay, but includea PoW header demonstrating that the submitter spent resources to create the tx. Then the p2p layer can lower/raise the threshold on this PoW hash.
<bsm1175321>
(Incorporating this somehow with the primary mining via e.g. merged mining is an interesting and difficult discussion)
<AdrianG>
bsm1175321: thats equivalent to paying
<bsm1175321>
It *can be*.
<AdrianG>
reusable proof of work.
<AdrianG>
why is it a difficult discussion?
<bsm1175321>
It requires pretty deep structural changes to bitcoin.
<bsm1175321>
Concrete proposals/implementation/tests are needed.
<bsm1175321>
But I think the idea itself has a lot of merit.
<AdrianG>
changes could be made backwards compatible.
<AdrianG>
it could be triggered only when mempool grows beyond a certain limit.
<AdrianG>
this could also be used as an incentive for full nodes, if they get paid to propagate txs.
<AdrianG>
even if its tiny amounts.
<bsm1175321>
Basically, bitcoin itself should be merge mined. If you try to merge-mine individual transactions with the primary chain, you end up including a lot of extra data with each transaction. It's way more efficient to merge-mine in both directions, which means bitcoin accepting an alternate definition of PoW.
<bsm1175321>
And that's a hard fork.
<AdrianG>
what is a lot of extra data?
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<bsm1175321>
Merge mining, as it's done currently, requires a merkle branch to be from the "primary" to be embedded in the "secondary" (because the PoW hash is embedded in the Merkle tree)
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<bsm1175321>
If "primary" is a bitcoin block, then O(10) extra hashes of a Merkle branch have to be embedded in every relayed transaction, which is ~300-500 bytes added to every transaction.
<bsm1175321>
It's way more efficient to do it the other way.
<bsm1175321>
Embed something from the "small" mined objects into the "large" mined object.
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<amiller_>
bsm117532, i like that idea tbh
<amiller_>
bsm117532, maybe you could also do it with micropayment channels
<amiller_>
but if you're going to be consuming service from a node, such as using up one of its slots, or trying to get a tx relayed, it makes sense to compensate them or at least put up collateral they can take
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<bsm1175321>
I agree. If we're going to mine, let's merge mine and make merge mining more systematic and compensated.
<bsm1175321>
I want to combine it with the idea of turning the block chain into a DAG. e.g. replace the p2p layer with another mined set of blocks, organized into a DAG, merge-mined with the primary bitcoin blocks.
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<bsm1175321>
Either way it helps move mining to the edges of the network. All nodes would be incentivized to add hashing power to avoid DDoS.
<heehaw>
Hi... guys... I was thinking abt a decentralized bitcoin network .. independent of TCP/IP...
<heehaw>
Some kind of ad hoc network based on drones probably...
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<kanzure>
bitcoin is not a transport protocol
<heehaw>
Okay... I should have phrased it better....
<heehaw>
A network tailor made for bitcoin...
<heehaw>
Lets face it... you heard what Jamie Dimon had to say abt bitcoin ysday....
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<heehaw>
I think at some point governments will go after bitcoin using their control over the internet...
<nsh>
(this is probably more of a #bitcoin idea than for here; unless you're going to attempt networking with blockchains or something, in which case i advise a career change :)
<bsm1175321>
heehaw: you can relay bitcoin transactions over any medium. Bitcoin currently runs over ipv4, ipv6, and tor.
<nsh>
i'm not sure if there is anywhere explicated the network-level assurances that make the bitcoin network work as expected
<nsh>
but i suppose something that looks roughly like tcp would be fine
<heehaw>
But arent you guys concerned that the internet is still something over which the government has a kill switch...
<nsh>
the conceptual problem with your idea is that a dedicated ad-hoc network just for financial or distributed-ledger transactions might attract, and be susceptible to - far more attacks than tcp/ip, which is relatively mature and underpins many more systems
<heehaw>
My problem is not really.. TCP .... But it is the IP....
<nsh>
if the internet is turned off, bitcoin will pretty low on the list of pressing problems
<heehaw>
@nsh I would suspect that a limited provably secure network is possible.. since the scope of the network can afford to be very limited..
<heehaw>
@nsh But say such a network is possible and available.... Would it be a good idea???
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<nsh>
sure, more resilient network transport alternatives and complementary systems are generally beneficial
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<heehaw>
@nsh.. <extreme bias> My biggest fear in case of an internet shutdown would be bitcoin....
<nsh>
you should be reading about network design engineering principles, not quoting idiots to me :)
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<AdrianG>
the internet cannot be shutdown at this point.
<AdrianG>
only selective filtering is feasible.
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<waxwing>
RFC1149 is my fallback of choice personally
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<AdrianG>
bsm1175321: how would you guesstimate the amount of hashing needed in your scheme to avoid dust attacks
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<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: I think you're chasing a non-issue.
<gmaxwell>
We have an integrated mechenism to prevent flooding-- transaction fees.
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<AdrianG>
gmaxwell: you could pay nodes to relay txns
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<gmaxwell>
generally hashcash solutions as you suggest have problems setting parameters which are strong enough to stop a desktop (or god forbid, a gpu or asic), while still allowing a mobile device to participate at all.
<gmaxwell>
AdrianG: no one gives a hoot about that.
<AdrianG>
gmaxwell: nobody cares about number of nodes dropping lower and lower?
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<amiller_>
gmaxwell, maybe not now, but the landscape of these things will change if the network changes
<gmaxwell>
AdrianG: "relaying transactions" isn't a service that needs to be provided, in that sense.
<gmaxwell>
AdrianG: there is no efficient mechenism to pay nodes to relay txn, and if anyone tried doing that miners would just advertise nodes that get txn to them for free and people would relay directly to those.
<amiller_>
what i mean is, if someone makes a totally new p2p network design that solves some of the problems people care about now, it will introduce some other problems, including potentially making relaying transactions for free less common, in which case these solutions might be good
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<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: transactions submitted from low power devices would need to be aggregated into a mini-block with higher difficulty. Some nodes could intentionally provide this aggregation service (perhaps wallet providers or phone companies -- where they've identified a customer-generated transaction), while others could increase their relay difficulty target to avoid spam from the general internet.
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<bsm1175321>
AdrianG: I have no idea how much would avoid dust attacks -- but it doesn't matter. The p2p relay layer is not consensus critical so individual nodes can choose different input difficulty targets (and just raise it until the dust goes away).
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<nsh>
there is no consensus without a roughly distributedly-consistent set of cryptographically-verified signed transaction objects to confirm block validity
<nsh>
not sure how useful it is to consider the relay layer noncritical
<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: If nodes choose to have zero input difficulty, and their nodes and the network in general can handle it, then "dust attacks" aren't actually a problem at all. Apparently someone thinks it is a problem. My *actual* goal is to try to get all nodes to mine to decrease miner centralization, and use a DAG instead of a chain to get rid of orphans and increase the transaction rate.
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<nsh>
(more constructive to think about in terms of latency and connectivity tolerances maybe)
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<amiller_>
bsm117532, it's silly to do with mining what you can just do with payments directly
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<bsm1175321>
amiller_: If spam attacks, malleability, dust, etc, don't ever get confirmed, no one gets paid.
<bsm1175321>
Again my actual goal is to get more people to (merge) mine. I happen to think it can help prevent spam too.
<amiller_>
im skeptical of trying to combine the approaches to two separate problems unless that's really the best way
<amiller_>
it's neat that if payments are too small and you don't have time/resource to bootstrap a micropayment channel, mining directly can be an alternative
<bsm1175321>
I'm a fan of killing two birds with one stone. ;-)
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<bsm1175321>
I'm negotiating with my CEO, but it's very likely I'll present these ideas with more analysis at Scaling Bitcoin in HK.
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] re the graph isomorphism blog post: "Raising questions about other problems. This a surprising result. Is a similar result for factoring around the corner? ...."
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] hopefully not
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<bramc>
Dust attacks are straightforward to stop: You have a policy of only relaying payments which will go into the next few blocks assuming highest fees come first and no new transactions
<bramc>
Also only allow one replacement of a transaction per block
<kanzure>
bramc: did you email your fee estimation article to bitcoin-dev mailing list?
<bramc>
kanzure, No I did not
<bramc>
I'm not on any mailing lists, as a personal productivity measure
<kanzure>
i don't believe you need to subscribe
<kanzure>
could you email the text and link to bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org ? i am moderator and i think i can let it through without subscribing you.
<kanzure>
although, this might signal to others that you are reading, so you might want to add a note that you're not.
<bsm1175321>
bramc: I prefer a PoW/hashcash solution over heuristics. One person's spam is another person's business model. As long as they pay for it with fees or hashing, I see no reason not to let things through.
<bramc>
If only we had a system which took hash based proofs of work and assigned them a floating monetary value based on current hash power
<bsm1175321>
;-)
<bramc>
I'm assuming routing priority is given to transactions with higher fees
<bsm1175321>
Again, I'm actually trying to get all nodes to mine, to decrease mining centralization. The spam/dust at the p2p layer may or may not be useful, but it opens the possibility.
<kanzure>
i believe the typical assumption floating around here is that there is high chance that most transactions will eventually be submitted directly to miners
<kanzure>
actually now i don't know what "most" really means here
<kanzure>
"most" is too strong of a statement for that
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* Taek
realizes that the clock rate and core count on his phone is higher than the clock rate and core count on his work laptop
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<sipa>
my phone has a higher resolution screen than my laptop :)
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<nsh>
Taek, those cores run at lower voltages with lower heat loss tolerance and a simpler architecture and so the computation power per clock-rate is not commensurate with PCs
<Taek>
nsh: I never said that the processing power was comparible
* nsh
nods
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<gmaxwell>
nsh: it's pretty remarkable how big the gap is, in fact.
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* nsh
nods
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