sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<mrkent>
Is the concept of weak blocks documented anywhere besides IRC logs?
<gmaxwell>
mrkent: Go look at the private thread between Peter R and myself that he posted to the mailing list. (perhaps someone has a link handy)
<mrkent>
gmaxwell: sub: weak block thoughts...?
<gmaxwell>
In any case, it's not currently a singular proposal; just the set of ideas that start from observation that if you have a method (that is DOS attack resistant) to flood transactions early, then the finding of a block can normally need only a small constant amount of data (a reference to whichever earlier broadcast was used); thus taking transaction transmission out of the propagation critical pat
<gmaxwell>
h.
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<gmaxwell>
And that you can use something analogous to merged mining to accomplish the rate limiting to prevent DOS in a way that gives the most access to early transmission to the parties with the best odds of producing the next blocks.
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<gmaxwell>
And this is important because any delay in propagation means that larger hashpower consoliations are more profitable.
<gmaxwell>
no, it's before that.
<gmaxwell>
I'll go look, one sec.
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<mrkent>
@gmaxwell: your discussion with peter_r seemed more about his paper than weak blocks
<mrkent>
kanzure: thanks will read next
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<kanzure>
mrkent: "transaction propagation out of the critical path" is quite on-topic for weak blocks, not sure what you mean
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<mrkent>
kanzure: i need to take another look at that paper is probably what it means
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<gmaxwell>
mrkent: the specific part at 227 goes and describes a weak block system and the motivation for it.
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<bramc>
I believe weak blocks in their weakest form: No change to the blockchain, just a DOS-resistant way to assure flooding, is a good idea.
<bramc>
Clearly good idea I mean.
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<Taek>
It might not need to be said, but I don't think I've seen a single person who thinks that weak blocks in some form wouldn't add value to the network. Maybe it is time to start putting together an actual proposal?
<Taek>
One that doesn't require any consensus changes is likely to be uncontrovertial
<gmaxwell>
there are ways for it to have negative value, e.g. if the design is poor in ways that create bad incentives.
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<gmaxwell>
Like the common thing people seem to imagine is where the weak block commitment txset must be exactly the same as the attempted block txset, and you can't try to weak add more than you're mining. That could have negative effects.
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<Taek>
do you think that a well put together weak block proposal wouldn't gain momentum?
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<gmaxwell>
I think it's not the highest priority this second, and likely won't get the kind of firepower needed to get a strong proposal for a couple months.
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<gmaxwell>
(in particular, in the short term, just using the relay network protocol gets much of the benefits)
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<nwilcox>
Are "weak blocks" some kind of intermediate blocks with lower PoW behind them?
<bsm1175321>
Taek: I think the weak block proposal doesn't go nearly far enough, and there are other ideas closer to Bitcoin-NG or a DAG-chain that may be much better. I'm going to withhold judgment until after the Scaling Bitcoin conference, where I'm sure we'll beat up all the proposals.
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<gmaxwell>
People should not forget one of the key innovations in what bitcoin does is that it is identityless.
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<Taek>
gmaxwell, sipa, rusty: do you think that the Bitcoin network today is experiencing nontrivial mining centralization pressure due to inefficient block propagation?
<gmaxwell>
Taek: it's hard to isolate the particular pressure sources. For example observing stratum pools, the median time from the first pool issuing work on a block to half the pools doing so is 5.7 seconds. And a rather significant size dependant slope.
<gmaxwell>
now thats enough time to make a real centeralization pressure impact; but it's not clear where all the components of that time come from.
<gmaxwell>
there are a lot of moving parts in the stack, and block propgation is only one component; and probably the one that has had the most done so far to improve it (in the form of matts relay network protocol; which manages to convert most blocks to just a few kb for relay)
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<instagibbs>
gmaxwell, I forget, was that measurement just how long it took to switch what miners are mining on? So would this include non-validating mining on top of new headers?
<gmaxwell>
yes, it includes them too.
<instagibbs>
:/
<gmaxwell>
it's nice because it's really testing ALL the sources; it's a less nice measure because it doesn't say where the delays come from.
<instagibbs>
It's the dual of what you want to measure, to abuse math speak
<Taek>
gmaxwell: very helpful. Do you think validation time is significant? Is it known whether most miners babe performed pre-validation on most of the blocks they are receiving? Do you know what the other potential problems are?
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<gmaxwell>
validation time is non-trivial, but 0.12 will make it much faster.
<instagibbs>
wow that createnewblock time. 30x improvement
<Eliel>
could there be a subscriber market for weak blocks? That is, people paying miners to get a stream of their weak blocks.
<gmaxwell>
yes, though thats not on the critical path for many (most?) miners... and it's really only that high with the recent bloated mempools.
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<bsm1175321>
I was wondering this morning to what extent block relay is efficient...do we relay to nearby peers? Or do we relay at random, so relaying may bounce across the globe several times?
<Eliel>
bsm1175321: if you ask me, nodes should offer the blocks to all peers they're connected to but prefer requesting blocks from nearby peers if there's multiple options.
<gmaxwell>
they do.
<gmaxwell>
they pull from wherever they got the inv announcement from first.
<gmaxwell>
which means that it normally traverses short hops.
<Eliel>
ah, it happens naturally.
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<gmaxwell>
though thats somewhat moot in terms of mining fairness in the average case, because the realy network is so much faster.
<Eliel>
by the way, wouldn't miners have an incentive to produce a block with merkle root identical to one of the weak blocks that has already circulated as that allows nodes to optimize the propagation speed to headers only mode.
<bsm1175321>
Are nodes validating the block before relaying? Or do they just validate the PoW and then relay?
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: the former.
<bsm1175321>
It sure would speed it up to do the latter.
<gmaxwell>
Eliel: it doesn't have to different beyond the marginal additional data.
<gmaxwell>
Eliel: e.g. "x plus this transaction, minus that transaction"
<sipa>
bsm1175321: the relay network doesn't suffer from that
<bsm1175321>
Why not?
<gmaxwell>
relay network does the latter. though at least with 0.12 it's not one of the largest delays.
<gmaxwell>
(it does verify some things, but nothing that takes non-negligible time)
<gmaxwell>
e.g. pow is valid and it extends the longest chain, and the block version and size and time and such.
<gmaxwell>
and that the hashroot matches, yadda yadda.
<bsm1175321>
i'm still confused why the relay network takes 5s when ping times are so much lower than that. :-/
<Eliel>
when a node invs a block, what data does the inv contain? Just the block hash?
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: where is your 5 seconds number coming from.
<bsm1175321>
I would have guessed it should be roughly (avg ping time)*log(# nodes)
<bsm1175321>
Maybe it is, with a couple bad stragglers.
<sipa>
Eliel: just the hash, though 0.12 will switch to using BIP130, which directly sends headers instead of invs
<Eliel>
Ah, great, no need to suggest that then :)
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: thats to reach all, for all all blocks. So it includes blocks which got almost no preforwarding gains (e.g. 1MB actually transfered)
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: and it turns out that TCP across high latency (and sometimes lossy links) takes a long time to ramp up and does not deliver a sudden megabyte delivered on it instantly.
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<bsm1175321>
I'm kind of wondering what the min practical block time is for an under-layer (Bitcoin-NG or dag). If I can throw out stragglers and use the 50% number (~300ms) that implies one could do a sub-1s block time.
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: thats not pratical at all. it would result in enormous centeralization pressures.
<gmaxwell>
as a significant fraction of all blocks would be found in an interval where the lightcone doesn't even include the whole earth.
<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: I can fix that with a dag.
<bsm1175321>
Why would it cause centralization pressures?
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<gmaxwell>
you can prevent work loss but not progress from making it inequitible.
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<ebfull>
placing UTXO state into coinbases or block headers to make it a strong consensus rule: any concrete proposals for this currently?:
<gmaxwell>
I am still gradually moving in the direction of thinking its a bad idea.
<kanzure>
gah couldn't find a bookmark fast enough
<ebfull>
curious why? :)
<gmaxwell>
awaiting some positive results from bramc's exploration though.
<gmaxwell>
ebfull: because it has non-trivial performance overheads and we now know how to get most of the benefits other ways. :)
<kanzure>
21:16 < gmaxwell> (E.g. an example UTXO commitments, they're neat and cool and enable some helpful things; but when you actually go to implement you find they have something like an >>10 fold IO overhead for full verifying nodes and suddenly now it's not so obvious a huge win, and there are several disjoint designs which are plausable and have different advantages)
<bramc>
gmaxwell, I need to just lock myself in a room for a few days and get this thing cranked out. I *think* I have all the fundamentals worked out now
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<bramc>
gmaxwell, It's good to hear that throughput is the big issue. Lazy evaluation can probably 'only' get a factor of 2 improvement in hashing time (a lot more if you add in parallelization though) but throughput can probably be improved by several times that.
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