sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc>
Asymptotic rolling consistency, with no one single moment having absolute consensus except in retrospect, is how all databases should work.
<yoleaux>
24 Nov 2015 16:55Z <Taek> bramc: you mentioned earlier working on Bitcion's peer protocol. gavinandresen was also talking about rewriting Bitcoin's peer protocol, perhaps there's value in collaboration
<bramc>
Taek, Right Gavin's muttering about it is why I was thinking about it. I don't actually know how Bitcoin's peer protocol works though, I just have some slightly sketchy thoughts about how I'd do it from scratch.
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<bramc>
So at some point I should sit down with someone who knows the current protocol well and discuss it.
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<kang_>
bramc: record it
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<tromp__>
i read the first 2 sections:)
<bramc>
tromp__ I'm finding section 3 nontrivial, but it says that their construction is based on modular square roots, which raises the question of why not simply do repeated modular square roots
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<tromp__>
those do not take more time to compute
<tromp__>
for a prime field the multiplicative order is p-1
<tromp__>
so computing a square root is taking a (p-1)/2 -th power
<tromp__>
a sqrt of a sqrt is cheaper, just (p-1)/4 th power
<tromp__>
uhm, wait. what happens if p == 3 mod 4
<gmaxwell>
tromp__: if the field is congruent to 3 mod 4, then you can use the (p+1)/4th power (and simular to get a 4th root)
<gmaxwell>
if P has other structure you can also construct a more efficient powering ladder (e.g. if its a repunit prime like 2^127-1 you can do most of the work by repeated squaring).
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<bramc>
Oh I see
<gmaxwell>
bramc: in any case the way sqrt works over a field is that the roots of member of the field that is a quadratic residue form a cyclic subgrop with a known number of members, so the way you find the sqrt is effectiely by going all the way around the long way, repeatly squaring to get to the members-1th step.
<gmaxwell>
(and since we know how big the group is, we can just efficiently raise to the relevant power)
<bramc>
This might be a fairly good practical speedup, because the constant multiplier has to do with number of bits instead of number of bytes
<bramc>
although, umm, you don't have the floating multiplier that you do in the repeated hashing constructions. Apparently I need to trudge through the rest of this paper.
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<bramc>
I'm not following their sloth construction, but if you're shooting for the biggest ratio of time to generate versus time to verify for a given size proof, I think it's best to just pick as large of a P which will fit.
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<tromp__>
hmmm, a megabit prime?
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<tromp__>
then optimization freeness may suffer, as you need these fancy FFT based multiplication methods for best performance
<katu>
i find their argument (well or more or less lack of) that tonneli-shanks root finding is unparallelizabl lacking
<katu>
its a probabilistic meet-in-the middle algorithm
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<bramc>
tromp__ The whole thing is going to have to assume quite a bit of known best optimization
<tromp__>
yes, that's the shaky part. with iterated hash there is little worry about the optimal way to compute it:)
<gmaxwell>
There needs to be one of these SMBC comics that chargs "knoweldge of number theory" vs "faith that any asymmetric cryptography is actually secure in the long run" that goes up for a bit then down to almost zero then up a little bit and stays flat. :)
<gmaxwell>
[Another topic] Someone on reddit was complaining ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3u5b1d/my_exchange_with_coinbase_ceo_brian_armstrong/ ) that coinbase terminated the payment processing account for his NSFW comic book business, I responded extolling the virtues of not using third party payment processing and complained about soft-power regulation that bypasses due process by putting p
<gmaxwell>
ressure on commercial intermediaries but not banning things, and said I hoped tech like Bitcoin would reduce reliance on vulnerable choke-points. Apparently the name of one DOJ program doing this sort of thing is "operation chokepoint". I guess I approve of the naming!
<kanzure>
yes it is nice when they use independently derivable naming
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<nsh>
'Bitcoin's departure from traditional banking and money transmitting models make it one of the most disruptive and daring economic experiments of our time. Behind the scenes, the system which offers payments to nodes that support the currency, is ruled by the resulting incentives. I will overview the interaction between the protocol and different aspects of its underlying incentive scheme. In partic
<nsh>
ular, I will present areas where improvements are needed, and where AGT can (hopefully) help.'
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<gmaxwell>
So-- people give up searching for the forced private key revealing trick? (aj found it with some non-trivial help).
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<gmaxwell>
sipa: ^
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<aj>
gmaxwell: aww, come on, i came up with a vastly worse way with no help too!
<gmaxwell>
oh yes! that too.
<waxwing>
crypto-tease
<kanzure>
i asked andytoshi the same question over dinner yesterday and i think his reply was "what's irc?"
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<gmaxwell>
waxwing: well I wanted other people to try, with one part hope of finding a better one.
<waxwing>
i jest :)
<gmaxwell>
sipa: No solutions?
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<phantomcircuit>
aj, lold
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<nsh>
gmaxwell, can you restate the problem?
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<nsh>
something like, using current bitcoin script rules, can you create a system that reveals a hash-preimage atomically with spending a refund of a lightning channel payment sequence payment
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<nsh>
ah, it's still in my scrollback
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<rusty>
nsh: did he give the answer yet? I freely admit to giving up!
<nsh>
not revealed yet
<nsh>
but i'd like to apprehend the framing of the problem before hopelessly and instantly conceding