wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<waxwing> is there a nice writeup anywhere of how schnorr sigs could enable multisig/threshold sigs?
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<ruby32> is there any literature available on the practical use-cases of CLTV (other than the obvious inheritance example that i see everywhere)?
<GAit> ruby32: trustless payment channels? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki see motivations
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<amiller> i think checklocktimeverify can make those lottery examples and cross-chain-atomic swap examples much easier
<amiller> and require fewer complicated rounds of interaction between the parties
<amiller> you *can* do it without CLTV, but you need to basically create a transaction ahead of time with an nLockTime, get the other party to sign it without seeing the transaction it depends on
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<Eliel> amiller: isn't that somewhat risky due to malleability?
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<amiller> Eliel, yeah i think so... so CLTV means you can do this without worrying about malleability too another benefit
<GAit> Eliel: only if the attacker knows the transaction or has enough reach to malleate enough % of transaction to make payment channel generally insecure/risky
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<nsh> can you elaborate GAit
<GAit> I was agreeing with Eliel
<GAit> and amiller
<GAit> i recall someone at some point malleating a lot of transaction
<nsh> ok
<Eliel> My understanding is that the current bitcoind limits relaying malleated transactions quite a bit by having more strict rules for relaying than what is accepted in blocks.
<Eliel> I expect relay level protections are good enough for practical use.
<Eliel> as in, it'd basically take a miner wilfully including malleated transactions for anything to happen.
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<GAit> as of now any implementation would need to be prepared to catch malleated confirmed transaction and provide new nLockTime transaction
<GAit> with CLTV it's atomic, although i often wonder about its privacy implication
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<Eliel> Well, if the malleability issue can be tackled, I don't think CLTV is particularly useful for this use case.
<iddo> attacker can attach higher fee to the malleated transaction, so it'd depend on whether miners are running unmodified client, or they're rational
<iddo> CLTV is great, it removes the need for refund transaction, in payment channels etc.
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<iddo> also solves malleability
<waxwing> i guess people here would know, am i right in saying that the definition of c_i in 4.4 of the cryptonote whitepaper is wrong?
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<iddo> actually i guess i'm wrong, attacker cannot change the fee in transaction he mutated
<amiller> has anyone written the CLTV version of our favorite transactions
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<amiller> waxwing, what's wrong with it?
<amiller> oh
<waxwing> amiller: it says c - sigma(c_i) for i=0 to n
<waxwing> should be i != s or some such
<amiller> it should be c - sum(w_i, for i not in s)
<amiller> yeah
<waxwing> trivial but when you're clueless these things slow you down :)
<waxwing> would have been more intuitive to use w_i instead of c_i as well
<amiller> yes
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<jcorgan> woo my bitnodes hardware just arrived. there goes the rest of my afternoon :-)
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<nsh> oh, that thing looks very cool! ( https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/hardware/ )
<nsh> would get more points for grsec/pax rather than vanilla ubuntu, tor support
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<jcorgan> i'll be hacking in Tor support
* nsh smiles
<jcorgan> shouldn't be hard, just apt-get installing and config file changes
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<jcorgan> i think the board also has a wifi interface on it, would be nice to untether it from the LAN
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<Adlai> so if waxwing broke the ice, may i complain about line 107 of borromean_draft_0.01_8c3f9e7 ?
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<Adlai> nsh: last i checked they ship 0.10.2 :(
<nsh> ah
<Luke-Jr> kinda defeats the point if you can't control the software easily
* Adlai is clueless about these things, shouldn't each e_i commit the previous s dot g plus current e dot ?
<Adlai> then you forge by fixing the previous (ie, last you generate, first you _calculate_) s?
<Adlai> previous s dot g plus current e dot P
<Luke-Jr> wat
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<dpfs> Any good advice out there for blockKicked block recovery/resubmit for valid bitcoin block kicked due to bad worker/user names? Already deleted Redis database entries on all shares associated with bad worker/user names while trying to fix issue. Any help and reward of 10% goes to you. We are using NOMP.
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<dpfs> ping admin
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<Adlai> !ops
* Adlai brainstorms the nicest way to spell 'gtfo'
<dpfs> Kicks work well
* Adlai kicks dpfs in the shins
* dpfs crying
<Adlai> so you'd actually have to calculate all but the first s, but only the last calculation involves the signing key
* dpfs at hospital with broken leg
<dpfs> Every share or block hash?
* Adlai casts it to an int, clots overflow and now broken(dpfs->leg) -> 0
<Adlai> also /topic, at least read the logs, it's the least a spammer could do
<dpfs> You'd be surprised how close on topic I am.
* Adlai loves supplies
<dpfs> I have more than a few things to contribute here once I get past this.
* dpfs wondering what's wrong with piping to null
* Adlai redirects /dev/null to /u/nullc
<Adlai> also, "reward of 10% goes to you" seems the antithesis of "not about short-term Bitcoin development"
<Adlai> at the very least pitch your needs in #blockstream
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<dpfs> Unless, I'm also implementing error correction in code and not just some noob trying to save a lost buck...
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<dpfs> If you have some ideas, please share. Otherwise, stfu because you're making it obvious that you have no knowledge to share.
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<Adlai> all i know is that i'm clueless about these things so my job is to slow you down
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* dpfs grins
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<kanzure> fluffypony: ping
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<dpfs> Btw, the only solution for new theoretical ideas to come to market is creating the public perception that it's an accounting solution.
<Adlai> please shill joinmarket elsewhere
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<dpfs> What's Adlai an acronym for? Anti Developer Lacking All Intelligence?
<Adlai> Androirc Does Leak All Internetprotocoladdresses
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* dpfs grins
<dpfs> That is cool
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<dpfs> Seriously, if my question is *that* rattletrip --it's faster to eliminate things by letting it pass.
<dpfs> Similar to IP
<dpfs> Detection is a 2-way street
<gmaxwell> Adlai: No. Go try to figure out how you'd sign for that.
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<dpfs> Jesus, it's been training others all day and I can't get some input to save my crippled legs lol
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<M-_mis> .
<dpfs> Adlai: You wouldn't believe how many devs I talk to that don't understand the basic concepts Debit && Credit who think they have the next big idea.
* nsh points to the quiet, people reading sign on the wall
<Adlai> so... "just choose s_i at random" is confusing me. the random scalar is k_j, s_i depends only on e_i-1 until i=j
<nsh> Adlai, you can 'go back in time' on any vertex in the borromean ring
<nsh> it's arbitrary
<Adlai> don't you need to know x for that vertex?
* Adlai is assuming 'you' only know one x
<Adlai> aka x_j
<MatrixBridge> <M-_mis> posted an image: http://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/nLEWUrtrGpFSPPsoKsPEjZcE - Screenshot from 2015-07-14 19:58:47.png (2801KB)