wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<lmatteis>
kanzure: yes not much was said about it
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<kanzure>
09:34 < op_mul> looks like they had the same problem as Monero in that their proof of work turned out to be a DOS risk due to it being so slow to verify. so you actually end up doing two sets of proof of work just to counteract that.
<kanzure>
lots of things were said, look closer
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<lmatteis>
kanzure: your *lots* is different than mine. i don't see anything else other than that phrase you pasted
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<kanzure>
use case insensitive grep
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<Taek>
I'm not sure if this is a completely stupid idea
<Taek>
but could you block most/all sidechannel attacks by using homomorphic encryption?
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<Taek>
potentially even side channels that haven't yet been discovered?
<Taek>
from what I understand, sidechannels are a way to glean the state of the cpu during computation in a way that leaks keys. But with homomorphic encryption, the cpu can't leak anything anymore.
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<nsh>
i'm not sure it's that simple, Taek
<gmaxwell>
Taek: now you just have the problem of making the HE process not leak data; and it oh yea, dealing with it taking 20 years of computation to sign something.
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<nsh>
also the whens and whereafters of making requests to your HE provider may leak information about how or why you are using its services
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* nsh
is still wondering if there might be some benefits to a multi-prover interactive zero-knowledge proof system over single-prover
<nsh>
there should theoretically be some resource that can be used once a number of non-colluding parties are available to prove the consensus state
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<jcorgan>
so i guess Ethereum just went live, at least according to their latest blog entry
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<justanotheruser>
They crossed out "safe"... lol?
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<mengine>
I think it is just to make people aware that is is very beta
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<rodarmor>
Is discussion of the lightning network on-topic for this channel?
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<mengine>
more on-topic than ethereum at least
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<Luke-Jr>
rodarmor: #lightning-dev
<rodarmor>
Luke-Jr: Thanks!
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<bramc>
Hey everybody
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<bramc>
I'm writing down thoughts now on transaction fees, and notice a very prosaic problem: If a transaction has a fee which is too low, there's no way for it to really fail. You can give up after a while because it seems to not be going through, but there's no way to say for sure that it never will, leaving the old utxo in limbo. You can of course negate the old transaction by spending the utxo, but the whole point here is that that didn't happen because it
<bramc>
was too expensive
<Taek>
depends on how much you care about it. There are things like child-pays-for-parent to bring it out of limbo
<Taek>
I thought there was also a proposal for an opcode somewhere that invalidated a transaction after a given block height
<phantomcircuit>
bramc, the only solution is to have a conflicting transaction mined
<phantomcircuit>
which more or less requires replace by fee
<bramc>
taek, But that can only bring it out of limbo by having it succeed, what if you decide the fees are too high and want it to fail?
<fluffypony>
bramc: they fall out of the mempool after a specific time period
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<bramc>
phantomcircuit, Yes that works fine for the increasing case, but what about the giving up case?
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<Taek>
fluffypony: my malicious mempool will never drop a transaction :)
<fluffypony>
Taek: lol
<bramc>
fluffypony, someone could maliciously reintroduce it
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<fluffypony>
bramc: mining nodes will reject the re-broadcast it because its timestamp is too old
<bramc>
fluffypony, That's sketchy at best, no real enforcement
<Taek>
as long as most miners honor timeouts, it's not a huge concern. I think in most practical situations you'd be okay
<bramc>
If it were possible to put a height limit on a transaction, that would solve the problem trivially
<fluffypony>
you don't need enforcement - the utxos will be spent by some future transaction
<phantomcircuit>
bramc, you replace-by-fee with a payment back to yourself
<kanzure>
i think he wants a revocation without committing to the blockchain
<kanzure>
i think that's probably a mempool-layer gossip-protocol message, and not something that can be guaranteed anyway
<bramc>
no no no, I'm talking about a situation where it's decided that the transaction is too low value to warrant paying the fee
<kanzure>
because a miner may never see your revocation message
<kanzure>
and also, if it's too low value then perhaps it wont be mined anyway, especially if it's not worth it to replace-by-fee to yourself
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<bramc>
It would be completely unsurprising for there to be a weekly cycle in fees so something which seemed well and truly dead in the middle of the week would sail through at the end of the week after it was already assumed to be dead
<kanzure>
pre-emptive timeouts would be helpful
<bramc>
Yes they would. They would make it trivial to know when a transaction was well and truly dead
<phantomcircuit>
<bramc> no no no, I'm talking about a situation where it's decided that the transaction is too low value to warrant paying the fee
<phantomcircuit>
then maybe you dont care?
<phantomcircuit>
since it's low value
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<kanzure>
bramc: would also be nice for contract expiration between two or more parties...
<bramc>
phantomcircuit, Maybe it's worth a lot more to get the coin back!
<phantomcircuit>
bramc, im not seeing when that would ever be true
<phantomcircuit>
unless the fee exceeds the value of the output
<phantomcircuit>
it's always going to make sense to try to get it back
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<bramc>
For example, I sell you something, you put in a transaction, we wait a while, it doesn't go through, so we decide that I won't ship it to you, no harm no foul, then some time later when fees are cheaper I reintroduce it and bam, I've now ripped you off
<kanzure>
i think the weirdo edge case to try to avoid here is something like, "i sent all my BTC to a new wallet, but the transaction didn't go through, and then i forgot about it promptly, and 8 months later someone is relaying that transaction that they remembered"
<kanzure>
bramc: to be fair, i think all users should ask for a signed refund transaction after they have handed someone a signed transaction paying them
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<phantomcircuit>
bramc, there's maybe some weird middle ground in which it makes sense to cancel a transaction if you dont have to pay anymore fees
<kanzure>
(possibly the refund transaction can be with some escrow service multisig scheme, the details don't exactly matter as long as it is better than nothing?)
<phantomcircuit>
but i cant imagine it's very large
<bramc>
kanzure, Fair enough, but the receiving side might re-spend it before the refund is put in place
<phantomcircuit>
and it's almost certainly unstable enough for it to only be open for a small period of time
<kanzure>
signed refund transaction should be made before the original payment transaction
<bramc>
kanzure, Not sure what you mean, but that can have a problem in the other direction - you can't tell for sure that the refund is dead. Unless the receiving side re-spends, which is another transaction fee.
<bramc>
kanzure, Let's assume we aren't using a microchannel here and this is a direct payment
<bramc>
microchannels are well and good, but at some point something needs to do a real transaction
<kanzure>
whoops refresh for minor typo correction about SIGHASH_NONE
<kanzure>
i believe that SIGHASH_NOINPUT can be used without a payment channel
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<kanzure>
and also, all of the payment channel transactions are real transactions; i just don't want to get into a trend of calling everything with SIGHASH_NORMALIZED a payment channel... hehe.
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<bramc>
I don't follow what you're saying. Using a different sighash type doesn't change the problem that a transaction can never expire
<kanzure>
child-pays-for-parent helps a bit
<kanzure>
and can't you just spend one of the other inputs in a future random other transaction anyway? as long as it doesn't compromise your privacy.
<bramc>
Yes child pays for parent helps a bit. Having a OP_NOT_IN_UTXO_SET would help a bit more. But I think I'm going to have to make a serious argument for transactions having hard expiration heights
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<bramc>
*If* you happen to be doing other transactions, and *if* you're okay with the privacy implications, then you can naturally re-spend the input
<bramc>
But those aren't always the case
<bramc>
Optimizing for transaction fees creates a somewhat privacy-unfriendly wallet policy for what utxos to spend: Use the smallest utxo you have less than the output value.
<bramc>
If you don't have a single utxo big enough, use the two largest ones you have as inputs. If those aren't big enough then three, four, etc.
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<kanzure>
yeah, for privacy-preservation vs fee minimization i would prefer to see multiple possible options, and have the option to sit back and wait a few hours while it computes possibilities if i want it to try harder
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<bramc>
Another funny thing: If you're okay with your transactions taking a while to go through because you're waiting for fees to get lower, and you decide to do an unrelated payment, you can glom that into your existing not-yet-approved transaction using replace by fee and be spending less per output
<kanzure>
heh, as long as i can go to you for writing coin selection for also considering planned-in-the-future transactions re: likely-good fee changes
<kanzure>
*re: fee variations
<bramc>
I'm doing a writeup on how wallets should handle fees. A bunch of unexpected stuff is coming up. Will be making concrete proposals though.
<kanzure>
what you mean setting a constant isn't enough? :-)
<bramc>
The basic suggestion is to take the last value you had work and divide by two for a starting point, then randomly add 0-10%, and for every block it doesn't go through add another 10% compounding
<bramc>
But a number much less than 10% may be a good idea if you're willing to wait a day for a lower fee. It's entirely plausible that there will be real fees during some hours but not others in the future
<kanzure>
ah, i was expecting a strategy like "look at your mempool and consider recent observed transaction fees compared to observed recently-confirmed transaction age"
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<kanzure>
and things like "also consider coin age because fee estimation and prioritization still looks at that sometimes"
<bramc>
I'm being simpler and more conservative than that, although I'll discuss those sorts of approaches and their limitations, which are quite serious.
<kanzure>
well yes there are many limitations there, because you're observing the past and such
<kanzure>
i mean the fastest strategy to get a transaction included is to include all of your BTC as a fee
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<bramc>
I'll be ignoring coin age on the assumption that miners are following the rational strategy of simply taking the highest fees
<bramc>
But thanks for reminding me that I'll need to mention that
<bramc>
If you do use all your BTC as a fee, send exclusively to my mining pool and I'll make extra special sure to include it. Offer doesn't apply if it's in the public mempool though.
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<bramc>
The amount of stuff I have to cover in this post keeps growing. It's good though, because this all needs to be worked through.
<kanzure>
it would be unfortunate if high-fee transactions are kept out of public mempools, because then it's hard to observe which transaction fees you might have to compete with
<bramc>
I wasn't serious
<kanzure>
oh, but others have proposed similar things before, which i'm sure will happen- it's just unfortunate that you can't see the competition all the time. not a big deal.
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<kanzure>
i think there's some auction type that describes this scenario. dutch? no...
<bramc>
But looking to public mempools is something I'm not advocating for, due to all the problems in it
<kanzure>
you should include a few words about the purpose of transaction fees (prioritization and not "to make miners wealthy" heh) because not everyone understands what fees are doing here
<bramc>
It isn't so simple, because the supply and demand are both very noisy
<bramc>
Mostly I'm going to link to my old post which goes on at some length about why transaction fees are a good thing
<kanzure>
and while i don't expect you to put much thought into payment channels, there are fee concerns there as well- such as, what are okay fees to accept on "layer 2" systems for getting your transaction into a block in aggregate.
<kanzure>
ah okay.
<bramc>
When supply is very noisy you should always try to lowball and slowly go up
<bramc>
I'm totally ignoring fees in payment channels for now, have enough problems just covering the very simplest cases
<bramc>
Gotta go, laters
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<kanzure>
silent auction?
<kanzure>
petertodd: aren't you our resident art snob? which type of auction is this.
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