#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-07-04 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-27 08:24 wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:29 <gmaxwell> adam wrote a whole post on ring sig this; on bitcointalk

00:30 <gmaxwell> shen_noe: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.msg3298692#msg3298692

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00:35 <shen_noe> gmaxwell thanks!

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00:40 <shen_noe> wow that's impressively more thought out than mine

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01:41 <gmaxwell> man, PHC mailing list really kinda sucks; it's like sci.crypt in the '90s... full of handwaving noise.

01:42 <gmaxwell> latest thing is someone 'zomg my new scheme is turing complete and thus provably irreducable' and then waving away any need for any further analysis.

01:44 <gmaxwell> Nevermind the fact that it only can reach a tiny subset of all universal circuits of the size in question; and there is no reason to think that the subgroup he can reach isn't dense with trivial circuits. It also ignores the fact that the non-linear compression functions in every other PHC are almost certantly universal in the same way (with sutiable preprocessing); yet many of them have strong

01:44 <gmaxwell> proofs about their behavior that show their action is not trivial.

01:44 <gmaxwell> then the next thread is someone rediscovering collission hashcash POW, and then shortly there after realizing that it its trivially paralizable and has significant TMTO.

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01:51 <bramc> Hey everybody

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01:51 <midnightmagic> HI bram!

01:52 <bramc> I gave a talk on cryptocurrencies generally at the bitcoin-dev meeting in sf on monday. Hopefully it will be posted online soon.

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01:56 <bramc> Also made this less controversial than I expected post: https://medium.com/@bramcohen/the-inevitable-demise-of-unconfirmed-bitcoin-transactions-8b5f66a44a35

01:56 <CodeShark> heh - you did write that up :)

01:57 <bramc> CodeShark, Yes I was totally serious about working on it. Next up: A post on basic fee setting strategy.

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04:32 <dgenr8> bramc: if you're looking for controversy, don't post conventional wisdom ;p

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05:05 <CodeShark> dgenr8: I don't think that post is particularly controversial in this channel - but if you go elsewhere you sometimes find these vehement voices insisting we continue to encourage merchant adoption even if it means encouraging them to accept zero confirmation transactions

05:07 <CodeShark> but I think the "controversy" tends to miss the real point...which is that zero confirmation transactions cannot rely on very much of Bitcoin's security model

05:08 <CodeShark> but it's conceivably ok to accept them given a reasonable security/risk model for the particular use case

05:08 <CodeShark> however, given that most people using bitcoin have no clue what this means it's better to discourage zero confirmation transactions

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05:12 <CodeShark> unless we give them good tools to support such use cases (i.e. subscription services that can be pulled upon double-spend detection)

05:12 <dgenr8> CodeShark: people like Balaji Srinivasan say things like "I'm confident the developers are working hard on solving this problem." He's mistaken. And by that I do not mean it's not worth working on. Only that nobody really is.

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05:13 <CodeShark> solving which problem? the public perception? or the fact that zero confirmation transactions aren't really secure?

05:14 <CodeShark> or double-spend detection?

05:14 <CodeShark> fairly reliable double-spend detection would already be a significant breakthrough :)

05:15 <CodeShark> the "only relay first" policy makes it trivially simple to split the network

05:15 <petertodd> CodeShark: double-spends can happen succesfully well after the first tx, even without miners adopting rbf

05:15 <dgenr8> CodeShark: no need to convince me

05:16 <petertodd> CodeShark: just run a full-rbf node and watch the logs, you see lots of succesful doublepsends

05:16 <CodeShark> petertodd: yes, I'm not saying that absence of a double-spend detection implies the unconfirmed transaction is safe :)

05:16 <CodeShark> I'm just pointing out that our current tools don't even do this particularly well

05:16 <petertodd> CodeShark: point is, without the ability to do something about the double-spend, it doesn't help much

05:17 <CodeShark> petertodd: you can if you're selling services like web hosting :)

05:17 <dgenr8> petertodd: doing something about it is not the realm of bitcoin. it's in the realm of real life

05:17 <petertodd> CodeShark: if you're selling web-hosting, learning about the double-spend when the tx confirms is fine

05:18 <petertodd> dgenr8: ^

05:18 <dgenr8> CodeShark: bramc compares zeroconf to life before bitcoin. that fails to ask how the existence of the blockchain alters the problem. i've looked into it somewhat https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md

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05:22 <CodeShark> ultimately I think the blockchain is a dispute resolution mechanism. problem is we have no retroactive repudiation mechanisms :)

05:22 <CodeShark> it's a feature...and a flaw

05:22 <CodeShark> depending on your point of view :)

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14:05 <CodeShark> CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is the new GOTO :)

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14:27 <ThinThread> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal (other than slaves), that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

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14:43 <prosodyContext> thinthread: We hold thlog truths to be self-node~~nt~~ && decentralized* ./∫rename trying to put the bitriotic into your patriotic hurts. :∫

14:48 <ThinThread> i think Thomas Jefferson knew fucking his slave was wrong (even if in "love"), so he consciously slipped that beautiful egalitarian language into pact agreeable to the southern states, to set timebomb of civil war and emancipation

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15:56 <nickler_> Are there any known sybil resistant multi-party coin flipping protocols? The problem with commitment based constructions appears to be that an attacker can refuse to reveal if another of his identities profits. Time-lock encryption seems to be able to solve this.

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17:30 <bramc> nickler_, You don't even need any new locktime opcode, the existing locktimes on transactions are sufficient.

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17:57 <nickler_> bramc: Sufficient for what?

17:58 <bramc> nickler_, Sufficient to implement fair gambling.

17:59 <bramc> nickler_, https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/784.pdf

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18:05 <nickler_> bramc: ah, thanks, I'll have a look

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20:49 <Anduck> just wondering, could the single-show scheme work with sequence numbers?

20:53 <Anduck> probably nvm for now, gotta think more

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