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<libv>
submodules are quite the nightmare.
<libv>
and quite unreliable too
<mnemoc>
that's the one thing cvs was great
<libv>
one misstep and the whole thing goes haywire, with little hope of returning to normality or the previous situation
<libv>
rm -Rf and then a submodule update. great.
<aholler_>
?
aholler_ is now known as aholler
<aholler>
no problem here with submodule, just that there should exist some magic to add own patches to them ;)
<libv>
ah, yes, i am sure that you can avoid the nightmare by not touching the submodule at all
<libv>
as soon as you need to, or if you are trying to split an existing repo into a superproject and a submodule, you immediately run into idiocy and broken concepts
<libv>
aholler: so try editing both superproject and submodule, and then get back to me with "no problem here"
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<aholler>
libv: I'm using them since quiet some years. what's your problem with such?
<libv>
git cherry-pick -n, and this translates to something resembling rm subproject
<libv>
aholler: basically, all the normal tools are pretty submodule unaware
<libv>
this while there is a clear split between main repo and the submodule
<libv>
meaning that submodules are fully manual, and pretty fragile
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<libv>
then, you better be using a public submodule, and that one better not change ever, as then your repo is f-ed
<libv>
it's not tracked over remotes
<libv>
but...
<aholler>
sorry, I can't follow
<libv>
you cannot just clone the main repo and get the submodule separately
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<libv>
err, s/separately/at the same time/
<libv>
you have to manually fetch that one over some special incantations
<libv>
why, if the submodule repo is directly recorded in your repo?
<aholler>
because the mechanism to get it might be totally different
<libv>
and what stopped people from adding submodules as extra remotes?
<libv>
it's somewhere in between, which makes it crap
<aholler>
that would be even worse
<libv>
really?
<aholler>
yes, i would want that some remote is able to overwrite my stuff
<libv>
?
<libv>
ok, current situation: you have .gitmodules in your top level of your repo
<libv>
it has a symbolic name, and it has a path, and then it has a url
<libv>
what is the url doing there?
<libv>
if the url is there, then git clone should know what to do
<libv>
but it doesn't
<libv>
you need: git submodule update --init
<libv>
what stops us from doing git submodule remote <symbolic name> <url> ?
<libv>
it's just halfarsed, and that halfarsedness is not limited to that.
<libv>
git commit could also be smart enough to first commit in the submodule locally, and only then in the superproject
<mnemoc>
totally agree
<libv>
git push should also be smart enough, etc. etc...
<libv>
it's halfarsed, across the board.
<rm>
git sucks
<aholler>
committing in a submodule makes only sense if it is under your control
<aholler>
and normally that isn't the case
<libv>
well, there are two options there
<libv>
either submodules and changes are tracked locally, giving you another remote to pull from cleanly. but that kind of beats the purpose of submodules, would just make pulling/merging easier for the tools to understand
<libv>
or... you are forced to have a submodule under your own control somewhere, a fork, and can pull/merge to that one separately
<libv>
the second makes the most sense in the git world
<libv>
what we have now, is, should i repeat myself once more?
<libv>
halfarsed.
<libv>
oh, a third option is to have submodules be read-only, that too would make sense
<libv>
now we really have something that is in the middle of all three sensible options
<aholler>
every of your options has it's own drawbacks
<libv>
heck. we could combine option 2 and 3, by adding a read-only option to .gitmodules
<libv>
and the top level tools should be smart enough to handle it for you, or complain loudly and refuse to do things
<libv>
aholler: sure, but now we have everything and nothing.
<libv>
aholler: and it's unusable and fragile.
<aholler>
I can handle it just fine.
<libv>
aholler: good for you and your apparently much more limited use-cases
<aholler>
but I'm sure someone would appreciate work on that topic
* libv
goes back to splitting a small git history over a superproject and a submodule
<aholler>
libv: yeah, world isn't perfect, unfortunately
<aholler>
but at least there are submodules.
<libv>
aholler: also, i am supposed to be writing a mesa driver for mali-400
<libv>
not redesigning git
<aholler>
maybe helping with git would make more sense, than writing a driver which should come from the manufacturer. ;)
<libv>
aholler: sure.
<libv>
that's how the world works.
<libv>
no wonder you are happy with git submodules today.
<mnemoc>
*g*
<aholler>
libv: there isn't something better
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<libv>
aholler: which doesn't make it good
<aholler>
you could use rcs if you want
<aholler>
nobody forces you to use git(-submodules)
<libv>
aholler: i do not get along with keithp much
<libv>
aholler: what he did with modesetting when he joined intel in 2006 was shameful
<libv>
aholler: but... he stated "now everyone shut up, we now use git for everything"
<libv>
the best thing he ever did
<libv>
and i was the first to move my drivers to git back in 2006.
<libv>
git was really rather broken and halfarsed back then
<aholler>
yes, especially the submodule support ;)
<aholler>
I know those times too
* mnemoc
loves git, but submodule integration is lame
<libv>
git does a lot of things well, submodules are a broken concept today.
<libv>
and...
<libv>
the way submodules are built up today, means that this cannot change either.
<libv>
there is simply no way to transition existing repos with submodules.
<libv>
really really poor design
<mnemoc>
git status/commit/push can be made aware of submodule without breaking compatibility
<mnemoc>
because the current state is unusable
<libv>
sha-ids are tracked in the repo, not in .git
<libv>
ah, no, they aren't... but the url is, which is broken
<libv>
which makes it a better machine for demoing
<mnemoc>
soc?
<libv>
a10
<mnemoc>
nice
<libv>
mnemoc: so the first time you've seen this then
<mnemoc>
libv: yes
<libv>
why does hansg not use screen.
<libv>
because he has a large collection of devices
<mnemoc>
if you don't need sata it seems to be better deal than a mele a2000g... specially been already available in your country
<mnemoc>
hansg seems to be traveling
<libv>
yeah, not having to waste 3h getting it from the customs office is a plus
<libv>
which i might end up needing to do on tuesday, as my mali-400MP4 from the place with the expensive shipping and handling, the one that knows the pain of binary drivers, but was totally to sponsor lima a pair of devices, is on its way.
<libv>
+unwilling
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* mnemoc
feels very lucky to have never needed to go to the customs office. everythign just arrives directly to my home. rarely with a to-pay invoice one pays directly to the postman
<libv>
wait and see how it works this time round
<libv>
i had to go over for my mele
<libv>
and 4y ago, i got a dvi submodule for a via board from norway.
<libv>
3h gone for just a few eur in customs
<mnemoc>
:<
<libv>
mnemoc: maybe the customs people in portugal are not germans
<mnemoc>
libv: spain ;-)
<libv>
ah, i was convinced you were in portugal :)
<mnemoc>
near .pt, and having to hear a similar language, but still spain
<libv>
still, a pan-european customs bureaucrat exchange might be nice, for me :p
<libv>
apparently those paperpushers are still smarting from the shengen agreement, 20ys on
<mnemoc>
i would have expected a more efficient import taxing charging system in .de than "take this letter and go to that office and wait a bunch of hours only to pay a few euros"
<mnemoc>
that's more .it culture than .de culture
<libv>
i see that differently
<libv>
the germans are being overly proactive and overly correct
<mnemoc>
so they don't charge you until you show the invoice
<libv>
yeah, and therefor they steal 3h of your life
<mnemoc>
here, if they charge you, it's a totally arbitrary amount... without even opening your package
<libv>
which is quite criminal
<libv>
ah, different kind of criminality
<mnemoc>
in this case, your and their time costs more than the tax diff
<libv>
but it keeps us all busy and keeps these people employed!
<mnemoc>
*g*
<mnemoc>
maybe that would help the 6M unemployed people we have (out of a 45M population)
<libv>
definitely
<libv>
more checking and more paperwork leads to better piecharts to show the rating agencies and the eu :)
<mnemoc>
:)
<libv>
ah, git mv does not deal with submodules either.
<libv>
and this process of course makes it impossible to keep stuff in your submodule locally, so you better be very very certain that your changes are good for public consumption
* mnemoc
misses a mele-ish device but compatible with vesa mounting, to screw behind a display
<sx172>
Is there a downloadable development environment or specific instructions for Debian and/or Ubuntu related distros? The provided BSP is erroring in many instances.
<libv>
oh, wow, looks like there are native tegra libs
<focus>
wonder how they got those :)
<mnemoc>
sx172: context please
<sx172>
I try FirstStep page, and apt-get listed dependencies. Execute commands listed. Get Error 1 and or Error 2 depending on which command from the sunxi-bsp options {hwpack etc}
<libv>
focus: what is in the dynamic section of objdump -x /usr/lib/nvidia-tegra/libEGL.so.1
<libv>
focus: is it referencing X stuff?
<libv>
like libX11.so
<mnemoc>
sx172: paste (on dpaste.com or similar) the whole error
<sx172>
yes, one moment
<sx172>
cp: cannot stat `build/sun4i_defconfig-linux/output/lib/modules': No such file or directory then mini-x-1gb_hwpack.tar.xz] Error 1
<mnemoc>
the whole output, including what you typed
<mnemoc>
sx172: the thing is to find what the dir isn't there
<sx172>
"cd /build/sun4i_defconfig-linux" is not correct because dir does not exist
<mnemoc>
s/what/why/
<sx172>
that
<ibot>
mnemoc meant: sx172: the thing is to find why the dir isn't there
<sx172>
it not there obvious not made
<mnemoc>
make linux J=1 2>&1 | tee make_linux.txt
<focus>
libv: do you want ls -R / of all files in nexus7?
<libv>
RaYmAn: nice
<libv>
focus: now, all that is needed is now known
<libv>
s/now/no/
<ibot>
libv meant: focus: no, all that is needed is now known
<focus>
ok - glad to help :)
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<sx172>
mnemoc, it seem after config using def instead of custom ?
<focus>
libv: does it mean opengl might be working?
<sx172>
variable inside not *_hwpack dir, but also defconfig dir which not made
<libv>
focus: yup
<focus>
One thing I found between nexus 7 and pengpod that has me worked up is when loading firefox locally and with ssh -X. ssh -X is quicker with large files. The remote rendering is making a big difference - a lot quicker.
<libv>
focus: get es2_gears
<focus>
libv: thanks - in that case i try to compile gambas3 for it :)
<libv>
wtf, nexus10 is 500+EUR
<focus>
may be future tablets have two CPUs - one for LCD and second for ssh -X to do rendering more quickly
<libv>
with the EUR above 1.30usd
<libv>
they do seem to be messing up the math there
<mnemoc>
sx172: http://paste.pm/4mh.c is the relevant part of the Makefile. something weird is happening on your system because your K_O_PATH doesn't include a reasonable $(PWD)
<libv>
focus: no, that is the nexus 7
<libv>
the 10 has the exynos5 with the mali t604
<focus>
hmmm
<sx172>
What should $PWD be normal, i can do manually
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<libv>
oh, 400EUR from the google play store.
<libv>
but 500+ from amazon.de, that does not make sense
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<mnemoc>
sx172: $PWD is the dir where the makefile is standing. but again, it's a consequence of a bigger problem. not a cause
<sx172>
$ $PWD
<sx172>
bash: /home/test: Is a directory
<sx172>
work fine
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<mnemoc>
sx172: try changing the $(PWD) references in Makefile to $(shell pwd)
<mnemoc>
sx172: or better, $(CURDIR)
<sx172>
interest, not sudo it output cp: cannot stat `build/boot.scr': No such file or directory
<sx172>
Done
<mnemoc>
boot.scr is optional. that should be taken only as a warning
<mnemoc>
if ubuntu, sudo apt-add-repository ppa:git-core/ppa might be useful
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<RaYmAn>
libv: tbh, something like the ouya should be just as good a dev platform (though, I guess it's still not quite available for regular users?)
<libv>
RaYmAn: proper gnu/linux is the key
<libv>
it makes life _a_ _lot_ easier
<RaYmAn>
nexus7 used linux for tegra.
<RaYmAn>
it's in no way nexus7 specific
<RaYmAn>
proper gnu/linux can run just fine on my TF201 as well, or an Ouya
<RaYmAn>
porting it is trivial
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<libv>
RaYmAn: proper gnu/linux, with working drivers to RE
<libv>
RaYmAn: this is unbelievably rare
<RaYmAn>
the drivers work on all tegra3 device. (ouya is tegra3)
<libv>
yes, this was news to me
<libv>
but i am not REing tegra, kusma is doing that
<RaYmAn>
the drivers canonical uses are just hte linux4tegra drivers downloadable from nvidia - they aren't specific to canonical or ubuntu or nexus7 :)
<RaYmAn>
fair enough
<mnemoc>
focus: hi, do you have your kicad files in a repo somewhere? or only downloadable .zip files?
<libv>
until very recently, sunxi was the only one with working binary drivers for mali
<RaYmAn>
nvidia has actually had working binary drivers for several years (tegra2 first)
<libv>
and until half a year or so, all i had was android
<RaYmAn>
(for gnu/linux)
<focus>
mnemoc: at the moment its all in single zip file, but I move it soon to github soon
<mnemoc>
focus: ok :)
<focus>
.
<mnemoc>
focus: any recommended resource for a not-EE (software ape like me) to learn to do a PCB for a carrier board like your?
<mnemoc>
any not-absuredly-overpriced but good book?
<focus>
mnemoc: lots of videos in youtube. I also leave links to two good videos. Install KiCAD, and follow the video and repeat 10 times and you be EE!! :)
<libv>
so there were about 1300 cubieboards shipped already, and 100 still waiting?
<libv>
what was the original goal again, 500?
<mnemoc>
i think there are over 2k cubieboards out there already
<mnemoc>
but don't remember the exact numbers of each batch
<libv>
they are popping up on ebay.de now too
<focus>
mnemoc: links in here http://www.gplsquared.com/SoM2/SoM2.html - there is also some Gambas project manager software there that talks through the KiCAD and has links to the PDF files to learn as much as you want.
<mnemoc>
focus: so you don't recommend anything in dead-tree form?
<focus>
mnemoc: definitely not - the two videos and repeatedly following it x10 is how I did it
<mnemoc>
cool :) thanks!
<focus>
mnemoc: just saying - I used Firefox extension DownloadHelper with youtube - one click to save the youtube file to disk. No need to constantly download to replay it x10 :)
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<mnemoc>
focus: tubemate in my case. I don't like to waste computer display space with videos ;-)
<focus>
mnemoc: thanks - I can use that with my androids
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<mnemoc>
focus: as it violates youtube's terms of service the app is an outcast, and the name abused by malwared variants. http://m.tubemate.net/ is the official site
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<focus>
mnemoc: thanks - good to know - I have throw out so many apps - either malware or resource hogger.
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<gzamboni>
mnemoc i started with gEDA, but kiCAD is much better, im finishing my extension board for cubieboard using kicad, im very happy with it
<gzamboni>
i could say it has all the funciontalities needed
<gzamboni>
even for high frequency you can make the same distance when routing.
<mnemoc>
gzamboni: i trust kicad is fine. what I lack is knowledge :p
<gzamboni>
and yes i started with some learning tutos in youtube about one week or 2 ago
<gzamboni>
now im able already to make schematic components, footprints, autorouting and almost everything needed
<mnemoc>
so I was wondering about a book for hobbyist but teaching you in practice to design extension or carrier boards where theory and complexity is suposed to be low
<mnemoc>
nice
<gzamboni>
the use of same route lenghs in routing comunication of the arm with the sdram and/or eth phy are essential
<gzamboni>
well, i dont have this complication as i am doing a very simple extension board
<mnemoc>
that's fortunatelly the part you don't need to care when designing extension or carrier boards ;-)
<gzamboni>
but if i decide to do a "main board" its nice to know the functionality is there
<mnemoc>
does it deal with same route lengths and that stuff?
<gzamboni>
well after there are some electronique knologe to know that some routes cant be so close to others to avoid interferences
<mnemoc>
i heared someone ranting you can't even position components in the exact coordinates you want
<gzamboni>
Kicad yes
<gzamboni>
well, you have a grid in the background, you have to configure the "resolution" to be able to position exactly where you want
<gzamboni>
the default resolution is low
<gzamboni>
so what he said is not true
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<mnemoc>
great to know :)
<gzamboni>
i just received 10 rgb matrix pannels, when i will finish my extension board i will start playing with it :P
<mnemoc>
it was a ranting of the sort "open source can't do what my beloved pirated app does"
<gzamboni>
you can even have a 3D preview in kiCAD
<mnemoc>
sexy
<gzamboni>
i thougth the same at the beggining, but know i see kiCad is a very good software
<gzamboni>
of course the library is not that big
<gzamboni>
i think in the paid softwres they have more components in their libraries
<gzamboni>
but its easy to create components and footprints
<gzamboni>
for instance: they dont have the 2x24 header
<gzamboni>
neither the 2mm 2X24 footprint
<gzamboni>
i had to create it to make the extension board for cubieboard
<mnemoc>
anything like openclipart for components and footprints?
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<gzamboni>
dont know really openclipart, but the apps are easy to use, and you can open a similar component and just change it and save as the one you want
<gzamboni>
of course, all the components and footprints you create if you dont associate a 3D model they wont appear in the 3D preview, it will appear only the solder parts in 2D at the board
<mnemoc>
ok
<gzamboni>
im filling my cart at farnell to know the encapsulations i will use to relate the components with its footprints to do the autorouting to send to the circuit board manufactor.
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<gzamboni>
i will make 10 units, in this extension board i will have a keypad, a FPC connector to a camera sensor, a header to a camera sensor also, an amplifier with speaker, an preamplifier with mic, 4 optocouplers with 4 relays, and headers for all gpios of cubieboard using 2.54mm
<mnemoc>
gzamboni: may I /q ?
<gzamboni>
what /q means ?
<mnemoc>
irc command for query, aka private message
<mnemoc>
kind of annoying there is no open central library
<focus>
mnemoc: nothing special as far as I know - a USB port can draw 500mA from bare +5V supply without having to talk with the controller and demand more power.
<gzamboni>
seems like your link is better, apperently he has all the 3D models also
<focus>
3D models and the source files in .wrl format to edit it in wings3D (available in ubuntu). I normally never try to design 3D from scratch - e.g. a 24x2 I would start with 2x2 and then duplicate the existing pins until I get what I want - much easier unless you are expert in 3D design
<gzamboni>
woot, nice library he has the fpc 3d connector models
<Turl>
chinese are worse than samsung when naming products >.<
<user>
lol
<Turl>
user: yes, A13 should work, it's sun5i mach
<user>
good stuff.
<Turl>
what version of android is replicant working on these days?
<user>
I'll ask ...
<user>
I don't know myself.
<Gumboot>
Speaking of bad naming; I was looking at those Ainol tablets a while back trying to figure out what the hell "manycore" meant. I ended up asking our FAEs at Allwinner.
<Gumboot>
("our" being my ex "our", not current "our")
<Turl>
all the things are 'manycore' these days
<Turl>
as long as it has a DSP or BP or GPU it qualifies as manycore :p
<Gumboot>
Well, this was A10. Cortex-A8. I asked around the office and they said that was, by any practical definition, impossible.
<Gumboot>
But yes, it turned out to be that.
<Gumboot>
What's a "BP"?
<Turl>
marketing speech at its finest
<Turl>
Baseband Processor
<Gumboot>
Oh yes. I'd stopped hearing about those.
<Gumboot>
I got kind of fuzzy about where the boundary was.
<user>
Replicant is apparently a fork of CM 9, so ICS.
<Gumboot>
Is there any Android-derivative which sandboxes apps more thoroughly and runs inside of Linux alongside proper Linux apps?
<Turl>
Gumboot: what do you mean with 'more thoroughly'?
<jinzo>
You're stretching it a bit :D There are Dalvik "players" for Linux/Windows
<Turl>
Gumboot: android apps are already heavily sandboxed
<jinzo>
but security vise, I don't think anyone adds anything special
<jinzo>
then, on this end of the stick you have some interesting patchsets/programs for more in-depth control of permission (OpenPDroid)
<Gumboot>
At installation Android says that apps need all sorts of things I don't want them to have. My only option is to not install them at all. So I was wondering if maybe there was something which would run them but deny them that access.
<Turl>
pdroid is that iirc
<Turl>
CM7 can deny permissions too, but apps don't like to hit hard walls
<Gumboot>
And the other thing is, I'd much rather run Linux (proper), but I need access to some Android apps, and I don't want them having rights to make a mess.
<Turl>
if an app requests unreasonable permissions, it's usually sign of trouble though
<Gumboot>
I don't think the walls need to be hard. They can be elastic.
<Turl>
Gumboot: you can run proper linux in a chroot
<Gumboot>
No, i don't trust Android as the host.
<Turl>
Gumboot: the host is the linux kernel
<Gumboot>
I don't trust the Android userland as the host.
<Turl>
"ubuntu for android" aims at that
<Turl>
Gumboot: no userland is host of anything
<Gumboot>
Who decides what goes on the display?
<Turl>
whoever writes on the framebuffer device
<Gumboot>
Who decides who's allowed to write on the framebuffer device?
<Turl>
the kernel
<Gumboot>
Who configures the kernel to make these allowances?
<Turl>
you
<Gumboot>
That's not been my experience with Andriod.
<Gumboot>
I used to run Android with this "I don't want anything which makes stupid demands for privileges" attitude, until I realised I wasn't installing _anything_ and that Android was useless to me.
<Turl>
there's two additions to that attitude you need to do
<Gumboot>
What it boils down to is that I think the whole Android security model is utterly stupid. If Android is the host of my Linux environment then I'm still giving a stupid system top-level rights to make stupid decisions.
<Turl>
if it doesn't request internet permission, the rest don't matter much
<Turl>
and if it requires root, permissions are irrelevant
<Gumboot>
I didn't even bother rooting for months.
<Turl>
so you trusted the phone manufacturer
<Gumboot>
Then I made a last-ditch effort at turning my device into something useful.
<Gumboot>
tablet.
<Gumboot>
I don't think I've seen an app that didn't want internet permission.
<Gumboot>
And I didn't have an awful lot of faith in the original firmware, either.
<Gumboot>
pdroid sounds like half of what I want.
XenGi_ is now known as XenGi
<jinzo>
Gumboot, there's also some apps on the android play store (one chinese one is famous, but can't remember the name) that do the same as OpenPDroid
<jinzo>
also the MIUI rom has it baked in (the previously mentioned app)
<jinzo>
and the stuff at least looks great (dunno how it works)
<jinzo>
but no sources afaik.
<Turl>
MIUI :/
<Turl>
no source of it at all
<Turl>
they don't even comply with GPL
<jinzo>
MIUI from the "naive" user perspective is great. Polished, good set of apps, themes, quite big community
<Turl>
and it's made in china, I don't personally trust closed chinese software
<jinzo>
yeah I know, but I don't trust the closed american software either
<jinzo>
probably even more than the chinese.
<Gumboot>
Oh, and I'd also like to reduce Android apps to being just a window.
<Gumboot>
So I can run a proper window manager.
<jinzo>
there's some samsung stuff with that, also some open afaik. Nothing major tho.
<jinzo>
or at least that I would know
<Turl>
jinzo: the thing is, when an american company does bad things and it gets discovered, there's big trouble
<Turl>
not so much when it's chinese
<jinzo>
WAT?
<Turl>
remember Carrier IQ?
<jinzo>
you do know the USA is intercepting ALL of the internet traffic that goes thorought it?
<jinzo>
even if it's mine for example?
<Turl>
we were talking about software companies, what does the USA have to do? :P
<Gumboot>
"intercepting"?
<jinzo>
USA is only a bit on it's toes when it goes for internal stuff regarding americans
<jinzo>
they're quite content with spying on foreigners
<jinzo>
Gumboot, yes, they claim that everything that goes thorough their internets is theirs to inspect, EU is disagreeing but nothing major will come
<Gumboot>
What if smoeone has citizenship but might still be a terrorist? Surely you have to spy on _everyone_ to be sure.
<jinzo>
there are also no laws that would forbid the CIA for example to intercept souch traffic.
<jinzo>
Gumboot, yes, but it's a lot easier if you spy on your own people under the umbrella of spying for foreigners
<Gumboot>
IP traffic is open for inspection. What of it?
<jinzo>
at least, that's what I would doo.
<Gumboot>
Once it's out on the internet you have to assume it's being looked at.
<jinzo>
should not be legal. You can assume many things
<user>
indeed, and we'll never know whos spying on us if things remain closed sourced
<jinzo>
but I don't think it should be legal for CIA for example, to look at my data
<jinzo>
even if it's cats.
<Gumboot>
This is going to descend into a gun control debate. I'm out.
<Gumboot>
"if you outlaw IP packet inspection, only outlaws ... "
<Gumboot>
etc.
<jinzo>
gun control? we don't have souch problems in developed countrys :D
<Gumboot>
I'm from New Zealand. In the charts I see it has about the third-highest gun ownership rate in the countries people bother to survey.
<Gumboot>
Only, in NZ they have this thing where people JUST DON'T SHOOT EACH OTHER.
<jinzo>
not only in NZ
<jinzo>
quite some other countries too :D
<jinzo>
and ofcourse that's good
<Gumboot>
I think in Switzerland they mostly shoot themselves.
<jinzo>
but on the other hand, you're next on the list of being the terrorists because of Kim :P
<user>
anyways, thanks for the help, I'm off.
<Gumboot>
dotcom or jung un
<Gumboot>
jong un?
<Turl>
dotcom I'm betting
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<Gumboot>
Two different axes of evil, I guess. Does evil have multiple axes? I bet it does.
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