<DocScrutinizer05>
thought it might interest you :)
<whitequark>
I was going to try milling stencils instead (the raw material, brass lists, is really cheap)
<whitequark>
but I'm not sure if that would work actually
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<DocScrutinizer05>
a set of two electromagnetic valves and a pressure regulator for pressurized air should do to push out a constant amount of paste per time from a syringe
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<DocScrutinizer05>
forget about creating stencils with a mill, won't pan out
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need laser cutting or etching to do stencils
<whitequark>
suspected it
<whitequark>
etching... could probably try that
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: random idea: exposing the resist with a powerful UV led and an optic fiber with a CNC machine
<whitequark>
I'm not sure what could it give you though
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<DocScrutinizer05>
existing technique
<whitequark>
what's it used for?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I can't recall details but I've seen exactly this moving light source technique getting used somewhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably in pre-laser times, maybe somewhere related to offset printing or sth
<whitequark>
I see
<DocScrutinizer05>
or really in professional PCB production
<whitequark>
also, his magnetic clamps are awesome
<whitequark>
even though duct tape would work too :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
guess why I said the word "magnet" at least 50 times during last 4 weeks in this channel ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need to rework those a little, since they have a thermofuse that cuts out at 130°C
<DocScrutinizer05>
place a 200°C switch at *top* of the whole thing, it cuts out when vapor rwches the level of the switch
<DocScrutinizer05>
reaches*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
when you wanna go fancy, you get a dimmer for the heating and slowly turn it down while thermoswitch at top of pot is engaged and turn it up when switch is too cold
<whitequark>
I've a spare PID controller lying here
<DocScrutinizer05>
then place some sort of heatsing on the pot for vapor to condensate there
<DocScrutinizer05>
PID, *great* :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
heatsink*
<whitequark>
TIL: "tombstoning" and "popcorning" :D :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
TIL?
<whitequark>
"The customer had severe problems with tombstoning"
<whitequark>
today I learned
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<whitequark>
hm, this actually looks kinda simpler than an oven for reflow, which I wanted to make once
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw you could use silicon isolation for the wires, I'm rather sure it has no problems with either temperature nor the liquid
<whitequark>
and for sure this is more reliable
<DocScrutinizer05>
(simpler) and WAAAAY better results I bet
<whitequark>
unfortunately there's basically no way for me to get the liquid
<whitequark>
it's classified as ozone depleting substance and prohibited from mailing
<DocScrutinizer05>
convection reflow oven is a bitch to build and to operate
<DocScrutinizer05>
DAMN!
<whitequark>
honestly I doubt customs here will give a fuck, they're much more interested in iphones than of 1L of some obscure goo
<whitequark>
but in the country of origin that might happen
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet#
<whitequark>
I'll probably ask you to send me some quantity of it when the rest of the toys arrive here
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, depends where that country of origin is. When it's china, then no problems anticipated
<whitequark>
china would also be a way, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oh, I don't have any
<whitequark>
well, you said you can get some :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
I said I guess I could get some
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually
<whitequark>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
when prodding Nikolaus
<whitequark>
I'm in no hurry
<DocScrutinizer05>
but actually that is maybe something I should do
<DocScrutinizer05>
just to boost the fame of Golden Delicious and myself ;-P
<whitequark>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it actually might come in handy
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Here I use Galden HT 230 with a boiling point of 230 degrees Celsius. For comparison, leaded solder melts at 188 degrees and leadfree solder melts at 220 degrees. This stuff is rather pricey, in the order of 100$ US per kilogram, which is about half a liter. <<
<DocScrutinizer05>
common mishap I do: apply normalization twice
<DocScrutinizer05>
so 100bucks/L become 200bucks/500mL
<DocScrutinizer05>
err
<DocScrutinizer05>
so 100bucks/kg become 200bucks/500mL
<DocScrutinizer05>
hah, thought I might be right with the 200 anyway ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, that's a different product
<whitequark>
HT-230 not HS-230, yes
<whitequark>
but it seems to have similar properties
<whitequark>
>>Galden HT-230 sold here by the 7 kg (15.4 lbs) containers is used for applications with component immersion, wafer etching, ion implantation, radar equipment, transformers, power supplies, UF6 production, chillers, cooling towers, and freeze dryers.
<DocScrutinizer05>
The saturated vapor generated from boiling Fluorinert liquid FC-70 is very dense and easily contained. The fluid is typically used with solders like 63 Sn/37 Pb, 60 Sn/40 Pb, or 62 Sn/36 Pb/2 Ag. FC-70 liquid can be used in a variety of vapor phase reflow soldering applications, including:
<DocScrutinizer05>
BGA attach
<whitequark>
yeah, 215 would be for leaded, not lead-free
<whitequark>
though I say fuck lead-free anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<whitequark>
too much hassle for prototypes
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problem is you can't mix lead free with leaded, really
<DocScrutinizer05>
though I forgot why
<DocScrutinizer05>
read it a week or two ago, somewhere
<whitequark>
that vapour-phase soldering pdf you posted, had a bullet point that you could mix leaded and lead-free with VPS
<DocScrutinizer05>
while reading about VP
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, I also think it might be worth a try ;-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, actually 235 was the compromise temp for mixed leadfree and lead production, not requiring to swap liquid of your VP reflow machine
<whitequark>
fluorinert seems to be equally hard to obtain...
<whitequark>
if by customer they mean private person then I know a guy who could probably resend the parcel wherever it's needed
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's always a question where to look for a substance. As a random example I found a barrel with ~30kg natrium cyanide in a galvanic lab that been closed. Try to get 1g of that substance! ;-P
<whitequark>
uh oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
same with stuff like KMnO4
<DocScrutinizer05>
I found a barrel with a convenient remnant of maybe 500g alu powder at a printing company's junkjard
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly used as pigment for a special printing color
<DocScrutinizer05>
I been mainly interested in the steel barrels and had an unpleasant "incident" when opening them at home
<DocScrutinizer05>
this alu powder stuff is impossible to clean, once it got out of the flask err barrel
<whitequark>
I hope you didn't drop the barrel... imagine if it made a spark :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
we just called it the silver pest
<DocScrutinizer05>
had another barrel with gold pigments, prolly brass
<DocScrutinizer05>
we called that the gold pest which been even worse
<DocScrutinizer05>
my flatmates cursed me
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had to promise to never again open any of those barrels ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
but with a cloth over it, it made a nice little table
<whitequark>
hah
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas I never had a chance to do some of my weird destructive chemical experiments with the substances in those
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however guess the alu must have been passivated on its surface, otherwise it should detonate the barrel when you shake it
<DocScrutinizer05>
wouldn't defeat adding it to some blackpower
<whitequark>
alu would be always passivated in air
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, yeah, and during that it tends to catch fire
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<whitequark>
only if the surface area/volume rate is high enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
when fine enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
which this stuff *definitely* was
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus i think it must have been passivated
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise it would've been too dangerous
<DocScrutinizer05>
but any passivation is moot when next dust particle is an oxidizer ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
blackpower alike mixtures containing metal dust are the strongest composite explosives afaik. Definitely they are forbidden for crackers in germany, since those crackers would be too strong
<whitequark>
you could also disperse it in air and ignite
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, except mixture of liquid oxigen with a hydrocarbon liquid
<whitequark>
if you manage to get it in air evenly in a room, you could manage to collapse the building
<DocScrutinizer05>
or replace liquid oxygen by tetranitromethane
<whitequark>
instantaneous reduction of volume by 20% tends to do that
<DocScrutinizer05>
though it seems to miss some drawings or info boxes. The question "How do you calculate the resistor in advance?" seems is never answered?
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL @ ""First, a little disclaimer, and a plea for help. I don't know why, but adding this circuit made my levitator stable."" http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/phaselead.htm
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're adding the differential part of the mandatory PID regulator, fool! ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus compensating for the inertia of your levitating object
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: LOL the schematic is faaaaaar too complex
<whitequark>
I've did exactly that thing with literally: 1 hall effect sensor, 1 operating amplifier used in comparator mode, 1 power transistor, 1 electromagnet
<whitequark>
a few resistors also
<whitequark>
that's all.
<whitequark>
talking about their levitator
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you get a bouncy ball this way
<whitequark>
bouncy ball?
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it may work
<DocScrutinizer05>
object oscillating up and down
<whitequark>
naw it doesn't noticeably oscillate
<DocScrutinizer05>
then I wonder how it works at all
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<whitequark>
key word "noticeably". you could feel the vibration if you keep it by hand, but not visually
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah, that's pretty good then
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're basically combining PWM with a very tight digital feedback loop
<whitequark>
I think it was an active Hall effect sensor... you'd supply it with 5V and in steady state it would output precisely 2.5
<whitequark>
then you'd compare its output pin with a tap on a 1:1 resistor divider. it's that simple.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, in such design even noise might introduce benefits to the design
<whitequark>
the system is catastrophically unstable outside of a local optimum though
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually doing a random dithering of the digital output
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, that's the problem with such design, it has extremely narrow operation point
<DocScrutinizer05>
window rather
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no way to recover
<whitequark>
the simplicity is impressive though
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can do same with a laser for the light barrier
<whitequark>
hall sensors are way easier to operate. just superglue it to the electromagnet
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's pretty difficult to start up such a system though
<DocScrutinizer05>
ugh WHAT? a hall sensor???
<whitequark>
hall effect sensor yeah
<whitequark>
or how do you call it in english?
<DocScrutinizer05>
how the heck is it detecting the position of your levitating object?
<whitequark>
the object has a neodymum magnet attached at the top
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wasn't attentive reading what you wrote
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, but the heck the hall sensor will get massive interference of the own electromagnet
<DocScrutinizer05>
now TAHT is a pretty weird design
<whitequark>
apparently it doesn't prevent it from working :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, it just increases complexity of the design by factor 100
<DocScrutinizer05>
hard to tell what actually happens
<whitequark>
hm, someone just emailed me about Galden
<DocScrutinizer05>
depends on exact position of hall sensor wrt to e-magnet, polarity of hall sensor, polarity of e-magnet
<whitequark>
did you ask anyone or something?
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically you built an oscillator that doesn't need any moving object to oscillate
<DocScrutinizer05>
me? nope
<whitequark>
me neither
<DocScrutinizer05>
somebody lurking in here
<whitequark>
I guess so
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you are already googleized 100%
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the webshops don't even need to ask for your email addr anymore and simply send a mail when you visit the website
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
I thought we had another 5..10 years until our world transformed into this nightmare
<whitequark>
google "real-time bidding"
<DocScrutinizer05>
no I won't, unless I get TOR installed
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<whitequark>
no seriously, that makes 1984 look mild in comparison
<whitequark>
"Let's explain with a simple real time example: a user heads to a page on a website (the "publisher"), causing it to start loading. In the same instant the website ("publisher") sends out a “bid request” to thousands of potential advertisers saying, “We’ve got this user who is 30, Indian, male and based in New Jersey, US, and recently searched for return air tickets to Delhi, opening a page on our site. How much are you willing to bi
<whitequark>
they're literally selling you on auction, several dozen times a second
<DocScrutinizer05>
OMG
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yeah, seems to depend on cookies (so far)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have cookie policy set to "always ask"
<whitequark>
that is bloody annoying though
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I honestly hate sites that try to place 3532 cookies
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, it actually is bloody friggin annoying
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd appreciate a small icon in webbrowser telling me "this site tried to place 3433 cookies which I all rejected" and I could click on this icon to see what been the cookies and deliberately accept one or some or all of them, for this time or permanently. On which occasion the browser automatically should reload the page with the updated cookie policy
<DocScrutinizer05>
I probably should patent this concept
<whitequark>
like for popups, yeah
<whitequark>
someone probably made this already as a firefox addon
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<whitequark>
grr, java
<whitequark>
what is the value of having a memory-safe language if you need a native library to access a goddamn serial port
<whitequark>
and the very second I load this native library it segfaults...
<whitequark>
grr, lead-free solder: when it's easier to tear the socket from PCB than to disconnect the plug from it
<whitequark>
actually, no, this is just some Molex contraption which is seemingly designed to be one use only
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<wpwrak_>
whitequark: DocScrutinizer05 will be so envious ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hm?
<wpwrak_>
because you have a molex connector that resists all attempt to remove it from the board :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I could it make come off, but only at the expense of destroying the PCB
<wpwrak_>
"will it blend" ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, that shady component sourcer turned out to seem pretty promising
<DocScrutinizer05>
so just *maybe* our molex headache soon will vanish
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<DocScrutinizer05>
unless we want to build more than 130k devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I dare to say: 130k? screw that Nokia N900 display
<DocScrutinizer05>
netcomponents.com that is
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: nonono, I meant that literally
<whitequark>
I tore it off the PCB
<whitequark>
even after that (!) I couldn't figure out how does one disconnect it without completely destroying the plastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
as expected it lists suppliers that have no own online shop/catalog at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: sometimes it's tricky to open those critters
<DocScrutinizer05>
sometimes actually impossible
<DocScrutinizer05>
but usually just hard to find the way to 2break" it without rendering it dysfunctional
<DocScrutinizer05>
often it needs drilling holes or cutting slizes or breaking off parts of one of the components to allow separation
<DocScrutinizer05>
even more frequently it just needs brute force inserting a sharp screwdriver at the right point to open up the latches
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course also semi-destructive process
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hardly even seen a design where function critical parts are involved in a lock that can't get opened without breaking those parts - like contact springs that latch up or sth
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually it's just the usual triangular plastic latches hidden inside the receptacle
<whitequark>
they also managed to place it in close proximity to two other easily damaged plastic components
<whitequark>
four actually, two other sockets, a buzzer and a jumper
<whitequark>
so soldering it back was one hell of a job
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like a pretty crappy design
<DocScrutinizer05>
excellent unrelated comment: >>3) Redundancy theater is easy, while real redundancy is extremely hard. It turns out to be exceptionally easy to build a ‘redundant’ system that just creates a new and different single point failure. Now, that can be an appropriate solution, if and only if the new single point failure is one that you are aware of and is much, much more reliable than where you moved it from. But it’s much easier
<DocScrutinizer05>
to just delude yourself into thinking you’ve built a redundant system, and self-delusion is the mother of all engineering failures.<<
<whitequark>
noticed it too
<DocScrutinizer05>
ROTFL @ We controlled a 12kW laser using a PIC16F886…. --- quite the british comment I think serves best to original rant
<whitequark>
tbh I don't see any problem with that. PIC fails, laser burns a hole through whatever it's pointing to (you should prepare for that anyway) and/or explodes (same)
<whitequark>
there's about 1000 factors which could lead to either result even if the uC is intact
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I enjoyed that comment
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<DocScrutinizer05>
also you usually build that stuff in a way so "simple" failures always cause shutdown
* whitequark
nods
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. PWM gets triggered by edge and causes a constant amount of energy released. No matter what error pattern the controller freaks out, it usually won't deliver higher frequency to the controlling signal
<wpwrak_>
(netcomponents.com) oh, great. when do you expect to get that reel ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
next year
<DocScrutinizer05>
we hope to get that real (SIC!)
<wpwrak_>
well, that's a relatively easy prognosis :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will contact suppliers next year January
<DocScrutinizer05>
they exist and are in Germany
<DocScrutinizer05>
\o/
<wpwrak_>
china hangs it collective head in shame
<DocScrutinizer05>
and updated that netcomponents entry a mere 5 days ago or somesuch
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I guess they simply have a surplus of some 130k or whatever and want to get rif of it
<DocScrutinizer05>
rid even
<DocScrutinizer05>
they are not interested in selling to the unwashed masses via an own outlet, running own helpdesk and whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus they send such offers to netcomponents.com or the like
<DocScrutinizer05>
which makes for a convenient net presence for their selling
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least that's my uneducated take on it so far
<wpwrak_>
neat. so that was a good place to find.
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all 130k of a 8ct component... :-/
<wpwrak_>
you could buy them all, make a site 5000246491.com and sell them with some 500% margin to all the desperate souls who want to fix old n900 :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
dafaq, frowards me to adobe flash
<DocScrutinizer05>
F U whoever you are!
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: that component hardly ever breaks on a N900
<wpwrak_>
ah, pity
<wpwrak_>
so much about establishing a one-click monopoly
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm still staggered at that LED of size 1.0*0.5*0.3mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: that's why I said "OMG! ;-P"
<wpwrak_>
doesn'
<wpwrak_>
t seem overly pricy
<wpwrak_>
hmm, accuweather.com have a special symbol for when it really gets hot. instead of a sun, they show a thermometer.i guess the 38 C of the last days weren't enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, so I guess we can afford to have 3 of them instead of just one
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno what's your local rating on ambient temperatures
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd prefer them to the weather around here anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang, still waiting for a single donation today
<DocScrutinizer05>
could become the second day without anything happening, in Neo900 history
<wpwrak_>
and indeed, these days are by a good margin the hottest of the entire year. january peaks were around 36 and 37, but then only for a day or two. this time we seem to have an entire week with peaks 37-38 every day. let's see if it makes 40 :)
* DocScrutinizer05
feels like visiting wpwrak_ and asking for a proper BBQ
<wpwrak_>
normally the maximum temperature should be around 30 +/- 2
<wpwrak_>
we were struggling with it on the 24
<wpwrak_>
because it was so hot, we ate much less than expected
<DocScrutinizer05>
as long as the deviation from average doesn't cause worse effects like they see them in USA and Canada these days
<wpwrak_>
we get that, too. and there's a thunderstorm predicted for today. but apparently it won't be able to lower the temperatures. i'm curious how that might work
<DocScrutinizer05>
eeew
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds nasty
<wpwrak_>
last night was a tad unpleasant: minimum temperature was 25 C ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, when you go offline, we know what's up
<DocScrutinizer05>
you got your Yamaha PSU meanwhile?
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems to be a nice little critter
<wpwrak_>
well, time to go to the post office and see if the book they told me they tried to deliver after sitting on it for a month can actually be picked up ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's the use of sitting on a book? ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
also, do you still want THAT book?
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually given the RGB LEDs are ~1.00EUR /1 and the white LEDs are 1.85, and we got 6 of them for kbd backlight, the RGB solution is cheaper than the monochrome one
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, I used different qty to calculate
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually they seem to be same price
<DocScrutinizer05>
RGB 1.6ct cheaper than white
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<wpwrak_>
(psu) naw, i still hope i won't need to do that. so far, i've been lucky - other parts of the city have been without electricity for some 5-6 days
<wpwrak_>
we had some cuts just the weekend before the big collapse. maybe they fixed something that helps us now
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<DocScrutinizer05>
one thing's for sure: you won't be able to get such a device when there's urgent demand for it
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's actually the reason why I would get one myself when I had the money to play with
<larsc>
anybody at the c3?
<DocScrutinizer05>
too far, too expensive, too exhausting
<DocScrutinizer05>
could easily burn a 500 bucks for those 3 days
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus I got annoying stuff to sort at home
<larsc>
it is definitly one of the cheaper conferences
<wpwrak_>
phew. "practical cryptography" has safely passed into my physical possession. also got a good look at our streets without power. one block away, several shops have generators on the sidewalk.
<wpwrak_>
and of course, that truck-sized generator a few blocks further down the avenue it still there.
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: my hope is that demand will be low enough during january (holiday season) for things not to get worse. and then the average temperatures will already be a little bit lower
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<wpwrak_>
another fun event: because of the heat, some piranha-like tropical fish went a lot further south than usual and attacked people taking a bath in a river not very far from buenos aires
<wpwrak_>
if you click on the small picture you get more and better ones
<wpwrak_>
so i guess they're all from about the same gang. grim look and plenty of teeth.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehehehehehehe
<kristianpaul>
i plan be on c3 for 2014, finances are getting better
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: what's new ?
<nicksydney>
anybody got any new 'toys' from Santa this year :)
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<wpwrak_>
i got me a book on cryptography. make it harder to detect the embarrassing mistakes i'll certainly make in anelok :)
<nicksydney>
yikes !
<nicksydney>
thought you going to crypto your brain :)
<nicksydney>
so nobody can poke into it
<nicksydney>
:)
<nicksydney>
do you have picture of the board with the cell coin holder ? i'm studying the schematics and having a hard time understanding the GND and + point from the battery :)
<nicksydney>
i can only pic of anelok with casing that is running on battery but nothing bare
<wpwrak_>
it's just a strip of metal. not very reliable. but the best i can do at the moment
<nicksydney>
thanks..let me check
<nicksydney>
cool...that helped...i was wondering how the GND plane works..now i understand why you have all the different polygons filled...so those filled polygons is what kicad is called "copper pour" ?
<wpwrak_>
i don't really have a ground plane. i just try to have as much ground as possible. for a proper ground plane i would need a four-layer board
<nicksydney>
so what is the correct teminology to use for anelok..is it to call it GND points or contacts something like that ?
<wpwrak_>
depends on what you're talking about :) in the case of the battery, "contact" sounds good
<nicksydney>
cool...it's easier for my brain :)
<nicksydney>
notice also that you have vias on the schematics...in most of anelok's photos i can't see any hole drilled in via's places ?
<nicksydney>
or am i missing something ?
<wpwrak_>
i can't plate holes. so what i make non-plated holes and put a wire through them. that wire is soldered on both sides and then trimmed. so vias are those little "tents"
<nicksydney>
looks like need to find out what is this "tent" vias
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