2013-12-01 00:10 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-01 00:11 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 00:58 this happens to me with compiler runs :-o 2013-12-01 00:59 I learned a lot this way ;-) 2013-12-01 01:32 g++ ... *wait,twiddle,zzz...* 2013-12-01 01:32 normally, compiler runs just flash by - unless you have the misfortune of them involving anything written in decadent-c 2013-12-01 01:48 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-01 02:35 hellekin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 02:43 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-01 02:46 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 04:03 rjeffries has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 04:04 root_empire has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-01 04:05 trying out this new irccloud.com (beta) system. 2013-12-01 04:15 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-01 04:24 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 07:35 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-01 07:38 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 08:34 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 08:38 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 09:15 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 09:51 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 10:11 kilae__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 10:14 kilae has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-01 10:40 viric has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 2013-12-01 10:41 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 10:48 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 10:49 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 12:15 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 13:18 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 14:25 wolfspraul are you living in USA these days? Happy Thanksgiving ( a few days late) 2013-12-01 15:06 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-01 15:10 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 16:02 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 16:20 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-01 16:20 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 16:24 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-01 16:27 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-01 16:36 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 16:37 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 16:40 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-01 16:44 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-01 16:46 biot has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 2013-12-01 16:57 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 17:23 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-01 17:23 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 17:27 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 17:34 biot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 17:47 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 18:24 hasta cuanto :p 2013-12-01 18:24 oops 2013-12-01 18:38 wpwrak: building gnuradio takes a few hours easily 2013-12-01 19:01 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-01 19:02 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 19:13 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-01 19:23 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-01 19:24 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-01 19:26 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 19:28 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 20:06 could be. haven't tried lately. powerful software then :) 2013-12-01 20:34 lol 2013-12-01 20:43 DocScrutinizer05: whoa ! += 3 devices since yesterday 2013-12-01 20:43 sorry, i'm on reconvalecence vacation, no time to deal with sarcasm 2013-12-01 20:44 s/time/time and power 2013-12-01 20:44 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "sorry, i'm on reconvalecence vacation, no time and power to deal with sarcasm" 2013-12-01 20:45 4.5% to go (well, technically you're already above 200, (43805-25000)/(200-15-5) = 104.47, already more than 100 2013-12-01 20:45 you got that massively wrong, we're not particularly interested in amount of funds raised during >=phase4 2013-12-01 20:46 it's about number of certain orders to produce for 2013-12-01 20:46 (reconvalescence) had some good beers to celebrate the workshop ? :) 2013-12-01 20:46 no 2013-12-01 20:46 I wasn't able to leave home 2013-12-01 20:47 (orders) 191+15+5 > 200, so you have that, too 2013-12-01 20:47 aww :( 2013-12-01 20:47 (sarcasm) and it wasn't meant to be sarcastic. you're doing very well. 2013-12-01 21:00 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-01 21:01 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 21:09 kilae__ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0.1/20131112160018]] 2013-12-01 21:50 wpwrak is your software far enough along to get some idea of battery life? I suspect this question is premature. 2013-12-01 21:53 No 'nanonote 2' in the works? 2013-12-01 21:53 rjeffries: yes, didn't venture into this yet. right now, i'm playing mainly with the case 2013-12-01 21:54 Mistah_Darcy_: it's your opportunity to start the project ! :) 2013-12-01 21:54 wpwrak, not necessarily. I lack the education and resources (funds, contacts, equipment, etc). 2013-12-01 21:55 hmm, a good portion of willpower could make up for all these shortcomings :) 2013-12-01 21:57 :( nanonote must live on forever 2013-12-01 22:12 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-01 22:16 dos1 has quit [Quit: zboczuchy] 2013-12-01 22:17 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 22:21 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-01 22:23 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 22:24 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 22:24 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-01 23:05 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-01 23:13 morning 2013-12-01 23:13 fighting with git at the moment 2013-12-01 23:28 artcrime has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 23:28 who wants/knows how to delete a user form a small website`s database prv me 2013-12-01 23:36 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-01 23:37 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-01 23:42 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-01 23:50 did anyone ever figure out what happened to the stock of approx. 1,100 new, in the box Ben Nanonotes that were unsold when Wolfspraul closed down his shop? I guess they went to a landfill? 2013-12-01 23:53 that's one of the great mysteries of qikind ... 2013-12-01 23:54 the real question is of course when pulster will run out of stock. 2013-12-02 00:16 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-02 00:19 panda|w530 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-02 00:36 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-02 00:38 ever wondered what happened to wikireader? ;-) 2013-12-02 00:38 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 00:46 what did hapen to wikireader? 2013-12-02 00:49 who is going to 30c3? 2013-12-02 00:55 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 01:02 DocScrutinizer05: should i fear karmic damage if i answer this in the negative ? :) 2013-12-02 01:03 prolly not, though it could give you a laugh when you bother to find out 2013-12-02 01:03 just tell us what you found :) 2013-12-02 01:04 well, last I heard been Medion selling then at Conrad 2013-12-02 01:04 them* 2013-12-02 01:04 even seen* 2013-12-02 01:04 wow. they're still alive ? impressive 2013-12-02 01:04 been quite a while ago 2013-12-02 01:05 Medion is known for cheap crappy hardware 2013-12-02 01:05 a disgrace 2013-12-02 01:06 wasn't that pearl ? 2013-12-02 01:06 those too 2013-12-02 01:07 http://www.medion.com/de/searchProduct?searchTerm=wikireader gone 2013-12-02 01:08 http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/876441/ 2013-12-02 01:10 sold out 2013-12-02 01:10 I should've gotten one while they were still available, for hysterical raisins 2013-12-02 01:15 pulster has them 2013-12-02 01:15 http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn - this was last I heard about it 2013-12-02 01:16 pulster, the horn of plenty 2013-12-02 01:16 "We want to raise money to buy as many WikiReaders as we can that are currently in overstock from its manufacturer." 2013-12-02 01:17 "We have an agreement with the manufacturer to buy the overstock devices (...) as the company is liquidating its assets. " 2013-12-02 01:17 ouch. 3k/232k. "Education – San Francisco". apparently not :) 2013-12-02 01:18 "We launched Sept 1st a 3-month pilot with 500 devices in three schools in India, South Africa and Mexico. We received grant funds to supplement the Indiegogo funds and additional funds from the Wikimedia Foundation." 2013-12-02 01:18 update from 17 days ago 2013-12-02 01:18 "The manufacturer is offering them to us for $15 USD a piece." 2013-12-02 01:19 (extra funds) good. 2013-12-02 01:19 wikireader was a kinda/sorta interesting concept. Used an Epson MCU if memory serves. And a FORTH based OS? 2013-12-02 01:20 it's 49 EUR on pulster :D 2013-12-02 01:29 [commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 11/2013 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/51106cf 2013-12-02 01:38 well, the CPU might be the same we initially picked 2013-12-02 01:38 the ID changed a lot, away from clamshell with "proper" hw kbd to that awful c-ts only thing 2013-12-02 01:39 and I doubt they kept the USB footprint I designed in for hw-hackers 2013-12-02 01:41 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-02 01:41 o/ 2013-12-02 01:53 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 01:54 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-02 01:55 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-02 01:58 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 02:04 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-02 02:07 DocScrutinizer05 have you and your team looked at what Jolla is doing, one assumes? They have some cool ideas. 2013-12-02 02:09 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 02:10 oh, they do? 2013-12-02 02:11 which ones? 2013-12-02 02:11 BustZone tivoized bootloader? 2013-12-02 02:13 honestly I haven't seen any cool idea they didn't copy from OM or N900 or GTA04, so far. Which idea do you refer to in particular? 2013-12-02 02:14 alas I don't have any detailed technical info about the device either, and my device still is waiting shipment 2013-12-02 02:15 so I don't even know how they implemented their flavor of I2C based expansion connector 2013-12-02 02:15 (tbh ours isn't finalized either ;-D) 2013-12-02 02:16 rjeffries: ^^^ 2013-12-02 02:35 ah, those backs. they need a bit of explaining in the case of jolla - from what appears i the press, one may think they act as "keys" to unlock functions the device already has. 2013-12-02 02:53 artcrime has quit [] 2013-12-02 02:56 yeah, pretty silly 2013-12-02 02:57 they actually might act as "keys" (actaully certs) to download themes or whatever 2013-12-02 02:57 but I dunno if they do or not 2013-12-02 02:59 the idea itself is disgusting, particularly since this would imply that you can't do your own skins/themes 2013-12-02 03:02 for all I know TOH simply has an I2C and power connector to the device 2013-12-02 03:13 as far as i understand what they're doing, these backs actually have real functionality. it's just that one can easily think they don't. 2013-12-02 03:18 My reading is that the innovative bit is teh I2C and power connector. The NFC thing for themes is a yawner (to me) 2013-12-02 03:18 wpwrak: yes, they have something that is connected to the mainboard via I2C 2013-12-02 03:19 I appreciate the idea of a handset where third parties can add a hardwar eback with extra functionality 2013-12-02 03:19 well, then you will love Neo900 2013-12-02 03:19 a power connection is also cool. think extra backs with extra battery capacity e.g. 2013-12-02 03:19 ah yes, two-way battery 2013-12-02 03:19 we had that before jolla even disclosed "details" about their TOH thing 2013-12-02 03:20 they were probably busy patenting it :) 2013-12-02 03:20 I hope Neo900 does well. 2013-12-02 03:20 ?? TOH ?? 2013-12-02 03:20 the other half -- got it 2013-12-02 03:20 the difference: we also try to offer USB concurrent to I2C 2013-12-02 03:21 (hope) so do we all ;-) 2013-12-02 03:21 Jolla and Neo900 need not represent a zero sum game 2013-12-02 03:24 wpwrak: (patenting) too late, GTA04 represents prior art 2013-12-02 03:28 DocScrutinizer05 on Neo900 do you support USB UTG maybe? 2013-12-02 03:28 s/UTG/OTG/ 2013-12-02 03:28 rjeffries meant: "DocScrutinizer05 on Neo900 do you support USB OTG maybe?" 2013-12-02 03:38 OTG maybe, definitely proper USB-host though 2013-12-02 03:38 OTG prolly comes for free 2013-12-02 03:52 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 03:52 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-02 04:43 wpwrak: git pull the new changes and tried building the anelok/case getting errror 2013-12-02 04:43 wpwrak: http://pastebin.com/fBbMJe5r 2013-12-02 04:52 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 04:59 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 05:04 hmm, maybe something's wrong with your pos.inc 2013-12-02 05:05 cd anelok/cad; rm pos.inc; make pos.inc 2013-12-02 05:05 afterwards, there should be a line in it (among many others) that says #define SW1_X 67.5000mm 2013-12-02 05:11 the only pos.inc i can find is inside ybox/case 2013-12-02 05:14 executing make inside /cad give error -->make: *** No rule to make target `../hw/anelok-all.pos', needed by `pos.inc'. Stop. 2013-12-02 05:17 ah, that's the root of the problem then. you need to generate anelok-all.pos manually (just like you did for the y-box) 2013-12-02 05:18 that's one of the dependencies that really really wants those command-line options back ... 2013-12-02 05:24 DocScrutinizer05 is now known as skynet 2013-12-02 05:24 skynet is now known as DocAvalanche 2013-12-02 05:24 DocAvalanche is now known as DocScrutinizer05 2013-12-02 05:32 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-02 05:33 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 05:40 ok seems like it's doing something after doing the manual steps of File > Fabrication Outputs > Modules Position 2013-12-02 05:42 wpwrak: does this look right .. http://pastebin.com/P0dXZPxt ? 2013-12-02 05:44 wpwrak: running 'make view' and ^D give this --> http://snag.gy/VzUNz.jpg 2013-12-02 05:45 wpwrak: will be interesting to change the rotary encoder to something touch slider :) 2013-12-02 07:15 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-02 07:16 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 07:21 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 07:28 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-02 07:28 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 07:34 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 07:45 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 08:12 yes, both the toolpath generation and the STL look good 2013-12-02 08:13 (touch slider) you mean something iPod-classic-ish ? 2013-12-02 08:31 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 08:46 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-02 08:50 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 09:13 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 09:21 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 09:26 hah, already three today 2013-12-02 09:27 6 more to go 2013-12-02 09:27 or 806 more 2013-12-02 09:28 this preudo-preorder concept works amazingly well, particularly for the little effort it took to come up with the idea 2013-12-02 09:29 pseudo even 2013-12-02 09:41 indeed, it works amazingly well 2013-12-02 09:51 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 09:57 5, 4 more 2013-12-02 10:01 wow. if you go on like this you'll hit 1000 shortly after new year :) 2013-12-02 10:02 that would be fine 2013-12-02 10:02 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-02 10:25 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 10:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 10:47 197 ;-) 2013-12-02 11:00 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 11:02 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-02 11:09 btw seems like the rate was sufficient to hit 1000 a few days before xmas 2013-12-02 11:09 of course you also could extrapolate the trend ;-P 2013-12-02 11:10 and make a fortune at stock exchange when you found the correct algo 2013-12-02 11:15 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 12:07 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 12:12 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 12:20 valhalla_ is now known as valhalla 2013-12-02 12:23 DocScrutinizer05: 2 to go 2013-12-02 12:24 better make room in that barn to stock components :) 2013-12-02 12:52 wpwrak: when i do 'make gen' now it comes with this error --> http://snag.gy/nwC5L.jpg 2013-12-02 12:53 wpwrak: (re: slider)...was thinking what if using touch slider where user can slide their finger on a surface rather than using their finger to roll 2013-12-02 12:55 (make gen) hmm, seems that you tried that somewhere where there's no corresponding .pro file. in which directory are you ? also, i don't think there are any cases where "make gen" would actually do something useful at the moment. (and it may expect these command-line options, which don't exist now) 2013-12-02 12:57 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-02 12:57 (slider) so moving the a more square form factor ? hmm yes, possible. ideally, you'd squeeze this on top of the bottom part of the OLED. that would be very compact. but then you'd have the field interact with the OLED. 2013-12-02 12:58 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 13:03 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 13:10 doing it from the /hw folder 2013-12-02 13:12 (hw) okay, then you run into the command-line options issue. in any case, it wouldn't do anything useful. not sure if i ever developed that "gen" target in any project. maybe it's just a stub all over the place :) 2013-12-02 13:12 slider: the use case i was thinking of was like...the user slider the finger to move the "cursor" like in your UI to point to alphabets ....and to hit "enter" / "confirm" can either a small button or take hands off the slider for example say 0.5sec 2013-12-02 13:12 DocScrutinizer05: 200-1 2013-12-02 13:12 wpwrak: (hw) ok no worries thought it will do something..just testing :) 2013-12-02 13:13 DocScrutinizer05: i wonder what happened. did the talk hit some popular site ? 2013-12-02 13:13 wpwrak: make brd and sch works fine in /hw so no drama there 2013-12-02 13:14 nicksydney: these are the important ones :) most of the rest tries to generate files that would require these command-line options. if you generate the files manually, they'll pick up things from there. 2013-12-02 13:14 nicksydney: so the typical use is: make -n see what you have to do, do it manually, then make to complete the operation 2013-12-02 13:14 but yes, very messy :( 2013-12-02 13:15 wpwrak: I don't see anything interesting in analytics 2013-12-02 13:15 pretty standard traffic 2013-12-02 13:15 I guess maybe people registered in newsletter (almost 600) are jumping in :) 2013-12-02 13:15 dos1: maybe just a fortuitous statistics fluctuation 2013-12-02 13:15 wpwrak: or what about ipod wheel like ? 2013-12-02 13:16 wpwrak: or maybe use accelerometer as left, right, top and bottom movement :) 2013-12-02 13:16 nicksydney: dunno if they feel right. what i like about the mechanical wheel is that you get tactile feedback. 2013-12-02 13:16 (accel) urgh :) 2013-12-02 13:17 wpwrak: or perhaps slide and use the sides to tap as 'enter'/'confirm' key 2013-12-02 13:17 wpwrak: so use case....user use slider to select and tap the side to enter /confirm 2013-12-02 13:18 wpwrak: sorry just throwing crazy ideas here to see if any sticks :) 2013-12-02 13:18 i find the slider idea interesting, though. it would give that area under the display something to do. and it would make the device smaller and cheaper. (i think that wheel is the priciest component of all) 2013-12-02 13:19 yes, kinda like a one-dimensional touch pad 2013-12-02 13:20 wpwrak: i was holding a RSA token the other day and was thinking what IF anelok also have a solar panel to make the battery last long ? it recharge the battery by itself ? 2013-12-02 13:22 not sure if a solar panel would have that sort of power output. it would have to work indoors, too. so you don't get that much light. 2013-12-02 13:23 also, i try to stay away from rechargeable batteries because of their built-in obsolescence 2013-12-02 13:23 wpwrak: does indor lighting helped or it is too low ? 2013-12-02 13:23 ahhh ok 2013-12-02 13:24 so for devices such as those RSA token what kind of battery do they use ? as the device itself is very small 2013-12-02 13:24 does that RSA thing have a solar panel ? 2013-12-02 13:25 oh sorry....it was not RSA token it was some kind of token key i was holding 2013-12-02 13:26 can't remember now what was it...thought it was RSA 2013-12-02 13:28 and it has a solar panel ? the ones i know are just "replace when the battery dies" (after years) 2013-12-02 13:29 the other thing i was thinking whether there will be any useful use cases to use your mobile with the device 2013-12-02 13:30 that's the link i hope BTLT can provide 2013-12-02 13:30 BTLE even 2013-12-02 13:30 YES ! .. BLTE :) 2013-12-02 13:30 Android baby :0 2013-12-02 13:30 :_) 2013-12-02 13:31 maybe we can use the mobile device to 'activate' as master key ? 2013-12-02 13:31 if the mobile can connect to the device that is considered as 'login' to the device and can use the device 2013-12-02 13:32 and the app can 'extract' information from the device 2013-12-02 13:32 i can help you to write the app :) 2013-12-02 13:33 which one would be the key for what ? anelok for the android phone/tablet/dromedary, or vice versa ? 2013-12-02 13:34 both ways 2013-12-02 13:34 but initially i was thinking one way first...from the phone to unlock the device 2013-12-02 13:35 mmh, that would be the less secure device acting as key to the more secure one 2013-12-02 13:36 so you are thinking the other way around ? 2013-12-02 13:39 it would make more sense. of course, ideally, you'd just move the sensitive stuff into anelok and have an encrypted path through your droid. that way, if your droid is compromised, it still can't do any damage. (well, beyond making calls to timbuktu, sending premium SMS, and that sort of fun) 2013-12-02 13:40 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 13:44 make sense....what about cases where user can potentially use the device by using BLTE to use any bluetooth enabled devices (either to turn on/off) ... say theoretically if a use has a bluetooth enabled speaker and they want to turn it on ..they can use it by connecting the device ot it 2013-12-02 13:44 i guess what i was thinking is the device can be used as a master 'key' to enable/disable certain hardware that the user has ? 2013-12-02 13:50 like a BTLE remote control ? well, yes, you could do that. things to consider: 1) if you use it a LOT, you'll go through batteries quickly. i expect a CR2032 to last for about two months. if you use it to control your tv, air conditioning, etc., too, then you may only get a few weeks 2013-12-02 13:51 2) the more stuff you load into the, the more likely it is that some will open a security hole 2013-12-02 13:52 that's also why your droid should be considered less secure: it just runs too much stuff 2013-12-02 13:55 wpwrak: didn't think about the battery 2013-12-02 14:05 200 :) 2013-12-02 14:18 dos1: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg 2013-12-02 14:19 (you moved to 200 so fast, i barely had enough time to cool down the glass :) 2013-12-02 14:19 hehe yeah :) 2013-12-02 14:19 cheers! :D 2013-12-02 15:04 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-02 15:24 cheers! :) 2013-12-02 15:29 dos1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-02 15:29 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 15:57 fyi I am experimenting with IRCCloud 9beta) it is a persistent IRC connection in a browser. (I use Chrome) sorta kinda cool. 2013-12-02 16:08 rjeffries: another mitm service? 2013-12-02 16:17 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-02 16:18 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-02 16:18 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 16:26 viric yeah prolly run by a certain USA agency that specializes in gathering data. lol 2013-12-02 16:31 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-02 16:32 irc is public anyway 2013-12-02 16:33 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 17:05 http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&type=submission&id=3160237 2013-12-02 17:07 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 17:08 perfect :) 2013-12-02 17:09 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 17:09 So if Neo900 does get 1,000 preorders (seems plausible) what will the unit price be? 2013-12-02 17:10 (/.) it's not approved yet, though 2013-12-02 17:10 to get to 1000 preorders i think it needs more advertisment 2013-12-02 17:11 looking at the pace of the preorders right now 2013-12-02 17:11 wpwrak: yeah, upvote! :) 2013-12-02 17:12 ah, /. ing it is a good idea :) 2013-12-02 17:12 rjeffries: it's hard to tell right now, but I guess it may be 100-200 EUR less 2013-12-02 17:13 ysionneau: that should grow the audience by some 5-6 orders of magnitude :) 2013-12-02 17:13 lets hope each preorder will convert into order 2013-12-02 17:14 we were already slashdoted at the beginning of fundraiser 2013-12-02 17:14 greatest spike in traffic was from hacker news though 2013-12-02 17:15 no lack with HN with recent submissions however, just few upvotes until it goes into oblivion 2013-12-02 17:16 I guess there's some luck needed to post it at right moment, so right people will start upvoting and then it goes forward 2013-12-02 17:18 green on slashdot - that means there is some interest :) 2013-12-02 17:20 Neo900 is a fascinating experiment testing appeal of FOSS/open [at a price premium] vs. features. May the Force be with them! 2013-12-02 17:20 (upvoting) well, that too. but what i meant was an approving comment. i.e., one explaining why it sucks, why those doing it are idiots and crooks, and why it will with absolute certainty fail. all that sprinkled with some more insults. only then it's official :) 2013-12-02 17:22 wpwrak are you suggesting a strategy where a clever troll of Slashdot might (significantly!) help Neo900. 2013-12-02 17:22 What an evil perosn you are, wpwrak. I like it. 2013-12-02 17:22 s/perosn/person/ 2013-12-02 17:22 rjeffries meant: "What an evil person you are, wpwrak. I like it." 2013-12-02 17:23 * wpwrak pets his white cat 2013-12-02 17:24 that sort: http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/villains/blofeld1.php3 2013-12-02 17:31 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-02 17:36 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 17:54 wohoo, 202 2013-12-02 17:54 DocScrutinizer05: congrats! 2013-12-02 18:01 yep, congrats :) 2013-12-02 18:03 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 18:08 lekernel: http://hongwrong.com/hong-kong-bitcoin/ "mining facility" 2013-12-02 18:10 panda|w530 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-02 18:13 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 18:19 that timeouts :( 2013-12-02 18:20 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 18:21 oh, works 2013-12-02 18:28 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-02 19:19 Russia is invading :) 2013-12-02 19:19 almost 40% of pageviews on neo900.org from today is from them 2013-12-02 19:19 http://habrahabr.ru/post/204422/ 2013-12-02 19:47 http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production 2013-12-02 19:52 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 20:10 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 2013-12-02 20:10 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 20:48 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 20:56 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0.1/20131112160018]] 2013-12-02 21:16 Luke-Jr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-02 21:20 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-02 21:20 dos1: ah, plenty of /. love in the comments :) 2013-12-02 21:22 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 21:26 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-02 21:30 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 21:33 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-02 21:36 wpwrak has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-02 21:38 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 21:49 qwebirc37686 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 21:50 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-02 21:51 qwebirc37686 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-02 21:52 wpwrak: for protoyping how many PCB do you have ? 2013-12-02 21:53 you mean aneloks ? just one for now 2013-12-02 21:54 the next one will have some changes. e.g., i need to swap some pins and such. 2013-12-02 21:55 wpwrak: you make the PCB yourself ? 2013-12-02 21:56 yup 2013-12-02 22:02 wpwrak: did you use the method of printing it on a glossy plastic-y paper and iron it to the copper ? 2013-12-02 22:07 yes, that's toner transfer 2013-12-02 22:07 just that i use a laminator instead of an iron. more consistent results :) 2013-12-02 22:09 can i use normal inkjet printer instead of laser printer ? 2013-12-02 22:11 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 22:12 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 22:18 oh no :) it's the toner that makes the transfer. ink doesn't work that way 2013-12-02 22:19 yay, /. submission seems to be gaining on popularity 2013-12-02 22:19 should make it soon :) 2013-12-02 22:19 when you iron the sheet, the toner melts and attaches to the copper. there, it acts as an etch resist 2013-12-02 22:19 wpwrak: damn! don't have laser printer :( 2013-12-02 22:20 dos1: oh, the one i saw was from nov 2. easy to confuse the two :) 2013-12-02 22:20 hehe :D 2013-12-02 22:21 http://slashdot.org/popular 2013-12-02 22:21 already orange and high on popular list 2013-12-02 22:21 colors mean popularity, above orange is only red 2013-12-02 22:24 wpwrak: oh another thing was wondering shall we make a list of the bill of material ? or anelok has got one already ? 2013-12-02 22:24 funny. thought it was red light colors. green = pass, red = no go. counter-intuitive scheme :) 2013-12-02 22:24 hehe :) it's color scale from black to red, starts at blue IIRC 2013-12-02 22:25 nicksydney: only the one kicad auto-generates 2013-12-02 22:25 it's rather red -> hot and black -> dead I guess 2013-12-02 22:26 would be good to make one that can be auto-priced. i have some scripts that can extract data from digi-key (from the "b2" project, son of "boom", which is an automatic BOM generator. alas, WIP.) 2013-12-02 22:27 also need to make a component reference to data sheet mapping. that way, it'll be easier to guess the argument to "dsv" 2013-12-02 22:28 wpwrak: for the component how much did you spend all together ? 2013-12-02 22:28 wpwrak: to assemble 1 device 2013-12-02 22:30 lemme cut & paste from my shopping list ... 2013-12-02 22:34 dos1: maybe you can post here too .. ozbargain.com.au ... lots of technies there from down under :) 2013-12-02 22:34 these are the main new components i had to get: http://pastebin.com/pD8WddEx 2013-12-02 22:34 i have a lot of the smaller stuff already in my lab 2013-12-02 22:35 nicksydney: hmm, is neo900 really a "bargain"? :) 2013-12-02 22:35 note that i always get a few parts 2013-12-02 22:35 dos1: excellent freedom per euro ratio :) 2013-12-02 22:37 dos1: hahha....well for some ppl they are considering you can do whatever you like with it :) 2013-12-02 22:37 wpwrak: just realized there is zigbee 2013-12-02 22:38 for now :) 2013-12-02 22:41 ah, and to all this add the OLED: http://www.buy-display.com/default/oled-graphic-display.html 2013-12-02 22:42 then you have my pseudo-bom. not included: various smaller caps, resistors, led, etc. 2013-12-02 23:00 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-02 23:01 have to quit for while and try to bring one of my graphics cards after the brownout ... 2013-12-02 23:01 wpwrak has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-02 23:22 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-02 23:26 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-02 23:33 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-02 23:34 Luke-Jr has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 2013-12-02 23:34 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 00:05 we've just got slashdoted 2013-12-03 00:14 HAH! 2013-12-03 00:15 and wpwrak is missing all the fun 2013-12-03 00:16 hah, didn't notice that he left 2013-12-03 00:16 wrote it here mainly for him :D 2013-12-03 01:10 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 01:22 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 01:22 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-03 01:24 root_empire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 01:27 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 01:29 root_empire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 01:37 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-03 01:47 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 01:51 root_empire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 01:53 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 02:06 root_empire has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-03 02:06 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 02:10 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 02:12 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 02:15 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 02:17 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 02:20 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 02:26 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 02:39 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 02:41 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 03:20 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-03 03:20 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-03 03:21 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 03:41 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-03 04:11 there was a storm. Maybe his connection was lost. 2013-12-03 04:30 qwebirc31989 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 04:30 qwebirc31989 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-03 04:34 I heard "brownout" 2013-12-03 04:34 [2013-12-03 00:01:15] have to quit for while and try to bring one of my graphics cards after the brownout ... 2013-12-03 04:34 [2013-12-03 00:01:16] <-- wpwrak has left this server (Quit: Leaving). 2013-12-03 05:43 sanderr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-03 06:03 sanderr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 06:44 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 07:29 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 07:32 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-03 07:39 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 07:50 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 08:26 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 08:28 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 08:30 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 08:38 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 08:40 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 08:51 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 08:53 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 08:57 DocScrutinizer0, doc1: Congrats with the 200-mark! And the slashdot article might even help reaching the 1000-mark. 2013-12-03 08:58 hmm, don't see that happen yet, but sure it will help 2013-12-03 08:59 I more hope for secondary articles triggered from /. - and most I hope for the chain reaction effect as described in https://blogs.fsfe.org/pboddie/?p=596 2013-12-03 09:00 potential customers noticing that we reached 200, thus felling more "safe2 when they jump on the train as well 2013-12-03 09:01 feeling* 2013-12-03 09:03 psychology of the masses: "others were excited and joined, so why should't I, this MUST be something awesome" 2013-12-03 09:04 you can even force this by spreading rumours about timelines approaching where it will "be too late" 2013-12-03 09:04 but we won't do this yet 2013-12-03 09:06 first we will showcase a fully working first prototype maybe february 2013-12-03 09:06 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 09:07 DocScrutinizer05: That's how I got into the NanoNote. 2013-12-03 09:07 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 09:07 we might reach 500 til then. Then announce the window will close soon and open up true preorders, to catch up another maybe 500 2013-12-03 09:09 (I'm reading Paul's blog post for a bit) 2013-12-03 09:09 it's nice 2013-12-03 09:10 nickoe has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-03 09:11 Indeed! I agree that the only sustainable way forward with freedom is with open hard- and software. 2013-12-03 09:13 nickoe has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 09:13 But the way you guys juggle electronics design and programming is way over my head. I only get 50-60% of it. 2013-12-03 09:13 Still, it's fun and interesting to learn. 2013-12-03 09:14 And I will do my part in promoting the project by pointing interested people to this initiative. 2013-12-03 09:15 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 09:16 thanks! :-) 2013-12-03 09:17 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 09:28 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 09:30 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 09:43 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 09:44 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 09:58 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 09:59 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 10:08 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-03 10:13 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 10:14 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 10:16 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-03 10:27 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 10:28 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 10:31 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-03 10:38 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-03 10:40 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 10:41 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 10:43 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 10:56 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-03 11:03 hehe, maybe I should mumble something like "of course those 350 1GB RAM chips will go to the first 350 preorders. Let's see if we can get more of them" 2013-12-03 11:04 DocScrutinizer05: btw is there any more certainty about particular component choices? 2013-12-03 11:04 like specific supported wifi/bt standards 2013-12-03 11:04 no 2013-12-03 11:05 we know we will use 320AIC34 audio mixer, P*S8 modem (probably), we know quite a bit about some sensors etc we'll use 2013-12-03 11:07 but WLAN for example hasn't been a topic yet for evaluation and/or sourcing 2013-12-03 11:07 in 3 months there might be better modules available than today 2013-12-03 11:08 I see 2013-12-03 11:22 qwebirc74685 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 11:22 qwebirc74685 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-03 11:24 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 11:27 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 11:39 https://github.com/search?q=fixme+race+condition&ref=cmdform&type=Code 2013-12-03 11:39 C: 437,426 results :p 2013-12-03 12:07 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 12:07 aah, baaack ! for once, the brute-force miracle cure worked 2013-12-03 12:09 (had one of my video cards not come up under X, so i was down from triple-head to single-head. it did this in the past but usually snapped out of it after a few reboots. but not this time. fortunately, a distribution upgrade cured this) 2013-12-03 12:10 hmm, is it just me or is gitorious having problems ? (502 Bad Gateway) 2013-12-03 12:17 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 12:18 wpwrak: gitorius looks OK to me, but it should be quite local to me, too. 2013-12-03 12:20 wpwrak: welcome back :) 2013-12-03 12:21 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 12:22 ah, now i can reach it, too. must have been a glitch. 2013-12-03 12:26 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 12:46 Looking at the gitorius DMCA takedown notices is interesting: https://gitorious.org/gitorious/dmca 2013-12-03 12:48 "state under penalty of perjury" hmm ;-) 2013-12-03 12:49 Not that interesting, though. Still, people sending such notices should know that "copywritten" is something different. Sheesh! 2013-12-03 12:50 I wonder if the "decompiled source code" for EVE Online was the whole thing. The server stuff is in Python as far as I'm aware. 2013-12-03 12:50 If it was, you'd have to wonder how it made its way onto gitorius. 2013-12-03 12:50 naw,they just saw the file names match "ps3*" 2013-12-03 12:53 Was the 502 error you got an nginx thing? "502 Bad Gateway" is surely the war cry of Web 2.0. 2013-12-03 12:53 yes 2013-12-03 13:02 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-03 13:04 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 13:20 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 13:43 toshiba just bought OCZ. cute: http://evilazrael.net/ocz.png 2013-12-03 13:53 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-03 13:56 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 14:01 wpwrak: what you have against SSD? :) 2013-12-03 14:02 wd also is buying http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/mas/wd-virident-ssd-acquisition/ 2013-12-03 14:02 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 14:02 SSDs ? i think i would have bought one by now if it wasn't for the reputation they got mainly because of OCZ :) 2013-12-03 14:02 yeao SSDs, sorry 2013-12-03 14:02 lol 2013-12-03 14:04 "virident" sounds like personal hygiene product :) 2013-12-03 14:04 SSDs are awesome :p 2013-12-03 14:04 "virus-free teeth". i think marketers haven't picked up that one yet 2013-12-03 14:05 you are extra sure you will make those backups 2013-12-03 14:07 as awesome as this flight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182AepOJjMs 2013-12-03 14:07 (at the beginning it looks a bit like an sr-71 but it's a b-52) 2013-12-03 14:21 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-03 14:24 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 14:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-03 14:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 15:09 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-03 15:19 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 16:28 nicksydney: btw, the laser printer i use for toner transfer is an old hp lj 1320. they're some USD 100 on ebay. the toner transfer will contaminate the printer with time, so you don't want a "nice" one for that job 2013-12-03 16:29 even better would be a lj 2100, c4170a. that's an even older model that worked even better. about the same price used. 2013-12-03 16:29 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 17:08 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-03 17:17 o.O 2013-12-03 17:17 PCB etching? 2013-12-03 17:33 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 17:33 trying to get him hooked, yup :) 2013-12-03 17:34 always a mess 2013-12-03 17:35 I prefer spending a 50 bucks for a 160*100 dualside with via every day 2013-12-03 17:38 you can't beat the processing time :) 2013-12-03 17:39 finish design at 6 pm, print at 7, etch at 8, have the board smt'ed and running at 10 :) 2013-12-03 17:42 takes a little longer if the board is very delicate since you have to do the two sides separately. but still. it's fast. especially if you don't have an affordable "next business day" pcb-making service in town 2013-12-03 17:47 then rather mill than etch 2013-12-03 17:48 too unreliable 2013-12-03 17:55 hmm, can't find the pictures i took of one of those experiments :( 2013-12-03 17:56 ah, here: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/cnc/pcb-1st/ 2013-12-03 17:57 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-03 17:59 wpwrak maybe your work on bluetooth (when/IF it happens) might be leveraged by the Neo900 team? Evidently that product will not include wi-fi (it seems) 2013-12-03 17:59 apparently, they will. but i don't know what module. 2013-12-03 17:59 DocScrutinizer05: do you already have a list of wlan candidates ? 2013-12-03 18:00 see feasibility study 2013-12-03 18:00 page 14 iirc 2013-12-03 18:00 meh, 18, or scrap that 2013-12-03 18:01 we also might use wl1251/71 2013-12-03 18:01 based modules 2013-12-03 18:01 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-03 18:01 known to work, somewhat 2013-12-03 18:02 kernel drivers RE'ed and augmented to do injection and monitor 2013-12-03 18:02 still closed blob firmware 2013-12-03 18:02 afaik 2013-12-03 18:02 wl1251 used in N900 2013-12-03 18:03 but the kernel driver is open ? 2013-12-03 18:03 yep, the re'ed one is 2013-12-03 18:04 search for n900 injection driver 2013-12-03 18:04 or somesuch 2013-12-03 18:04 I bought it when they guy still asked for a donation 2013-12-03 18:04 -y 2013-12-03 18:04 so I dunno how it's called today 2013-12-03 18:04 http://www.ti.com/product/wl1271-tiwi-ble "not recommended for new designs" it's haunting you :( 2013-12-03 18:05 dang! 2013-12-03 18:05 always same bullshit 2013-12-03 18:05 when it becomes available for aftermarket, it's already EOL 2013-12-03 18:06 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-03 18:06 :-/ 2013-12-03 18:07 ironically, mouser have it as "New Product: New from this manufacturer." 2013-12-03 18:08 maybe this is the answer: "Special Note 2013-12-03 18:08 TI no longer supports new WiLink6 software driver development. The LSR TiWi-BLE module is still an active product and supported by LSR." 2013-12-03 18:09 yep 2013-12-03 18:09 not too bad 2013-12-03 18:09 mouser will get some on xmas :) more to arrive in february. nice lead times ;-) 2013-12-03 18:11 be happy! ;-P 2013-12-03 18:11 could be worse 2013-12-03 18:12 nah, it seems there are a few choices now, yet to evaluate them all 2013-12-03 18:13 211 2013-12-03 18:13 i wonder how they get these lead times .. even if the factory was on the moon and they require cash first, the round-trip would only have about 10 weeks. 2013-12-03 18:13 *shrug* 2013-12-03 18:14 maybe they first need to build the factory? 2013-12-03 18:14 no idea 2013-12-03 18:15 hmm yes, drive a truck to the hinterlands and deliver a first batch of sticks and stones. wait until they master them. then proceed with simple metals ... 2013-12-03 18:17 Maybe that Chinese Lunar rover is scouting out places for factories. 2013-12-03 18:18 you missed the /. fun 2013-12-03 18:20 "Jade Rabbit Corp., 123 Dust Rd., Bay of Rainbows, Moon, PRC" 2013-12-03 18:20 doesn't sound too different from today's names 2013-12-03 18:22 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-03 18:51 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 18:55 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-03 19:14 Will Neo900 support bluetooth? ideally, BTLE... 2013-12-03 19:45 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 19:50 BT sure, BTLE maybe, not yet decided 2013-12-03 19:59 shortwave radio would also be nice. imagine "lost" if they had had that: pick up any cell phone, call the rescue services, leave it on to send a beacon, happy rescue a few hours later, let the NTSB worry about the technical details. all efficiently done in one episode 2013-12-03 20:42 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 2013-12-03 20:56 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2013-12-03 21:03 Jay7 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-03 21:09 wpwrak: Spoiler alert! 2013-12-03 21:10 Paul Boddie... Paul Boddie... 2013-12-03 21:10 oh, you're that guy from the blog! 2013-12-03 21:11 Another spoiler: it's the same guy! ;-) 2013-12-03 21:11 But I have to blog about something. 2013-12-03 21:12 wonderful posts about Neo900 and Nanonote, one of the best I've seen on the web 2013-12-03 21:12 Well, I knew I'd get into trouble if I got the details wrong. ;-) 2013-12-03 21:12 very informative and to the point, thanks a lot :) 2013-12-03 21:12 Have you tried to get it onto LWN? 2013-12-03 21:13 nope, but good suggestion 2013-12-03 21:15 It's worth a shot given that they had Improv featured a few days ago. 2013-12-03 21:17 that's a nice idea ! lwn certainly draws a much more high-profile audience than slashdot 2013-12-03 21:19 Well, more high-brow is perhaps how I'd put it. 2013-12-03 21:24 that works, too :) 2013-12-03 21:30 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 21:42 qwebirc88650 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 21:42 qwebirc88650 is now known as NickSydney 2013-12-03 21:51 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 21:51 NickSydney: heya, still like the slider idea ? 2013-12-03 21:54 yeah 2013-12-03 21:55 sorry didn't get a chance to chat and look into the project as been troubleshooting issues with day job 2013-12-03 21:55 let's see then what the list thinks about it 2013-12-03 21:55 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 21:55 wpwrak: the slider that i've seen in dev boards are capacitive sensor ... is that correct ? 2013-12-03 21:56 btw, this would also be a nice sub-project to get started with experimenting with making PCBs and such :) 2013-12-03 21:56 wpwrak: yeah that's why i'm excited :) 2013-12-03 21:56 something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r_8z0pAQ-o ? 2013-12-03 21:56 yes. lemme see if it can find a description of that design ... 2013-12-03 21:57 wpwrak: the only issue with PCB making for me is the laser jet..which is next to impossible for me to buy :( as it's expensive financially for me 2013-12-03 21:57 wpwrak: any other idea you can think of making your own PCB without laser jet ? 2013-12-03 21:57 used laserjets are some USD 100 2013-12-03 21:57 wpwrak: unless I make PCB via company like seeesstudio :) 2013-12-03 21:57 wpwrak: used laserjet in this part of the world is VERY hard to get 2013-12-03 21:58 wpwrak: let's see what i can come up with :) 2013-12-03 21:59 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-03 21:59 wpwrak: i find kicad harder to use than Eagle as newbie 2013-12-03 21:59 bah, you can even find a used 1320 here. even only around USD 100. almost suspiciously low :) 2013-12-03 22:00 i can't compare - never used eagle. 2013-12-03 22:02 wpwrak: need to practise a bit with kicad 2013-12-03 22:04 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 22:04 dos1 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2013-12-03 22:04 dos11 is now known as dos1 2013-12-03 22:05 hmm, freescale don't have any much material on touch sensor design :( 2013-12-03 22:05 the section in the quick reference manual gives you an idea, though. dsv klqr then chapter 10, page 105 2013-12-03 22:10 wpwrak: TI or Microchip ? 2013-12-03 22:10 I've seen Microchip demo before if I remember correctly 2013-12-03 22:11 freescale :) 2013-12-03 22:11 but yes, all the vendors have somethign :) 2013-12-03 22:12 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-03 22:13 say for example you go ahead and add touch...will that means there will extra chip for that ? 2013-12-03 22:13 or we can hook it up using the available pin on M0 2013-12-03 22:15 the kl25 has a touch sensor controller. it's all in my post :) 2013-12-03 22:20 wpwrak: very nice :) 2013-12-03 22:21 wpwrak: i like this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/touch.pdf 2013-12-03 22:22 and if you get a frdm-kl25z, you can even try the sensor without extra hw (well, but the sensor itself) 2013-12-03 22:23 but you'll of course want the oled, too, which can be powered from the frdm as well, but it'll need a wee bit of local circuitry 2013-12-03 22:23 the graph on the right side of that picture is that showing voltage reading ? 2013-12-03 22:23 wpwrak: i have the oled that i bought from buy-display few months ago .. i knew it will come in handy 2013-12-03 22:23 something readings ;-) basically capacitance, however it is determined 2013-12-03 22:24 oh, that one's a monster ;-) 2013-12-03 22:24 (if you're talking about the 5") 2013-12-03 22:24 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-03 22:36 using the same as in anelok will also allow to determine the effect of interferences 2013-12-03 22:40 ah, farnell has thinner than 0.4 mm pcbs without excessive lead times. not a lot, though 2013-12-03 22:44 but they've definitely won the price for the most obscure location in their product category tree: pcbs are under "Semiconductors - Tools" 2013-12-03 22:46 wpwrak: no i do have the oled (not the 5") 2013-12-03 22:46 wpwrak: initially i was going to use it to practise for building a LCD driver board ... as i'm obsessed with display :) 2013-12-03 22:48 oh, you have the 1.3" model ? great ! 2013-12-03 22:49 it's extremely easy to get it to work. i was pleasantly surprised 2013-12-03 22:50 anelok/dui/ has the board i made for testing oled and wheel with an external cpu 2013-12-03 22:52 cool...will take a look at that 2013-12-03 22:52 ok going back to work now..catch you later 2013-12-03 22:52 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-03 22:52 hmm, i think farnell are lying. these "ultra-thin" pcbs are in fact normal ones. you'd think after all these aeons of being neighbours, they'd have figured out how to read french data sheets ... 2013-12-03 22:55 (i.e., those "35 um" are not the pcb but the copper on it 2013-12-03 22:58 "Semiconductors - Tools" LOL 2013-12-03 22:58 wpwrak: um, 35um PCBs? 2013-12-03 22:59 what were you smoking? :p 2013-12-03 23:00 that's twice thinner than household aluminum foil 2013-12-03 23:06 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-03 23:14 Isn't aluminium foil part of the smoker's smoking equipment? ;-) 2013-12-03 23:14 I was going to ask about laser cutting of stuff for prototyping purposes. Anyone here with experiences of that? 2013-12-03 23:15 I have some laser-cut stencils here, which look pretty nice 2013-12-03 23:16 for prototyping however... 2013-12-03 23:18 I wondered if you could do some kind of keyboard/keymat with the right material, engraving and even partial cutting. 2013-12-03 23:20 well, a lot of PC keyboard keycaps are laser-engraved 2013-12-03 23:21 rather: burned 2013-12-03 23:22 anyway sounds almost like an XY-problem 2013-12-03 23:23 Yes, the legends/labels should be straightforward, but I wondered about the ability to make the keymat flex "precisely" and thus activate only one key in the matrix beneath. 2013-12-03 23:24 IOW, depends on your laser, your design, but most of all on your material for the keymat 2013-12-03 23:24 Yes, interesting link time: http://www.abatek.com/technologies/surfaces-design-a-protection.html 2013-12-03 23:24 (From a previous trawl of the Internet.) 2013-12-03 23:25 * DocScrutinizer05 has to go afk, before grumpy mood gets obvious 2013-12-03 23:25 * DocScrutinizer05 needs food 2013-12-03 23:25 and COFFEE 2013-12-03 23:27 Always a good idea. Well, maybe not right before bed (unless you're Finnish). ;-) 2013-12-03 23:28 JRTZ 2013-12-03 23:28 it's errrr almost lunchtime here 2013-12-03 23:28 so CET+12 2013-12-03 23:29 which doesn't really help with finding food 2013-12-03 23:55 paul_boddie has quit [] 2013-12-04 00:14 rozzin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-04 00:26 rozzin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 00:49 whitequark: (35 um) well, i thought that maybe they misplaced the decimal point. 2013-12-04 00:50 DocScrutinizer05: learn from the squirrels: they go out before it gets cold and dark and stock snacks. 2013-12-04 00:51 squirrels are glorified rats 2013-12-04 00:52 and birds are dinosaurs 2013-12-04 01:04 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-04 01:11 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-04 01:11 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 01:11 found an interesting site http://www.explainshell.com/ 2013-12-04 01:23 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 01:23 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 01:32 Jay7 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-04 01:32 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 01:36 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 01:39 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-04 03:19 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 03:19 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 04:25 !seen tuxbrain 2013-12-04 04:25 kyak, tuxbrain? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember tuxbrain. 2013-12-04 05:12 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 05:22 ysionneau has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 05:27 ysionneau has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 05:34 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 05:54 NickSydney: interesting. but is the purpose to help or to intimidate ? :) if i didn't already know what "true && { echo success; } || { echo failed; }" does, i might think i'd never understand after reading the analysis ... 2013-12-04 05:56 qwebirc25409 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 05:56 wpwrak: i guess the website is suitable for n00b like myself :) 2013-12-04 05:57 NickSydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-04 05:58 qwebirc25409 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-04 05:58 wpwrak: can i use this kind of printer http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/balgowlah/other-electronics-computers/brother-hl-2132-mono-laser-printer/1033007461 for doing my own PCB ? 2013-12-04 06:07 hmm, some people say brother are bad for it: http://www.dutchforce.com/~eforum/index.php?s=11b10a8174e1d64372cd1da9d486fef6&showtopic=18871 2013-12-04 06:07 but then, maybe they didn't enough research on the paper and/or settings 2013-12-04 06:08 linux / cups seems to be fine with it: http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=22891 2013-12-04 06:09 in general, pretty much any laser that puts a significant amount of toner on the paper should do. so "eco" or draft modes may get in the way ... until you find out how to turn them off 2013-12-04 06:11 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-04 06:11 hmm 2013-12-04 06:12 each step of the process matters :) so the printer is one variable 2013-12-04 06:13 the paper is usually more critical. there's a lot that can go wrong there. you'll probably need to try a few different papers. 2013-12-04 06:14 this may be useful: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/led-toy/ledtoy-building-0pre9.pdf 2013-12-04 06:15 (incomplete and old, but has more or less that complete process) 2013-12-04 06:16 if you can get the HP C6039A paper, that would be best. not sure if it's still around, though 2013-12-04 06:17 else, you have to make a localized approach. you may also find help in local electronics enthusiast's fora 2013-12-04 06:18 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 06:18 in general, google for printer name plus "toner transfer" (with the double quotes). that's likely to turn up experiences with that printer among the first hits 2013-12-04 06:18 then, print name plus linux to see if it's friendly 2013-12-04 06:21 here are some examples of what the results of printing and transfer should look like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ 2013-12-04 06:23 you may also want to get a permanent marker with a very fine tip, to cover any spots where traces got interrupted in the print/transfer. (like the ones marked red at the bottom of the left column) 2013-12-04 06:24 if you miss any of these things you can also fix them with solder, but it's more convenient if you don't have to 2013-12-04 06:26 ah, and regarding the instructions, i wouldn't use ferric chloride anymore. nowadays i use muriatic acid with peroxide. cheaper, easier to get, cleaner, faster. drawback: not so nice to do indoors. 2013-12-04 07:07 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-04 07:55 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 08:12 xiangfu has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2013-12-04 08:12 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 09:04 rjeffries_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 09:07 eintopf_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 09:12 FDCX has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-04 09:12 rjeffries has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-04 09:12 eintopf has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-04 09:12 rjeffries_ is now known as rjeffries 2013-12-04 09:12 eintopf_ is now known as eintopf 2013-12-04 09:27 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 09:58 wpwrak: that doc is really thorough 2013-12-04 10:16 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 10:50 the soldering part is a bit obsolete. back then i stoll thought ssop were kinda difficult. nowadays, i solder them by just "painting" the solder. quicker and safer than the process i described there. 2013-12-04 11:06 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-04 11:25 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 11:30 muriatic acid? 2013-12-04 11:32 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 11:33 "salzsaeure" 2013-12-04 11:35 HCl + H2O2 is a LOT better than ferric chloride. you can find the ingredients everywhere, it's a clean liquid and it stays clear (unlike FeCl with all the black sludge building up in there), it works perfectly at room temperature (FeCl: wants heating), and you can just store and reuse it 2013-12-04 11:37 i keep mine in a glass jar with a flat bottom and a tightly fitting plastic cover. that way i don't have to move it between storing and etching. if it gets weak, i add a bit of peroxide or acid. every year or so, when the volume gets too large, i put a bit into a larger kjar. so this means basically no residues. (until i want to dump the large 2013-12-04 11:38 jar, but that one also has its uses for bigger items) 2013-12-04 11:39 to keep the volume increase low, i use 35% peroxide to "reactivate" the mixture. 2013-12-04 11:40 wpwrak: peroxide is a regulated substance in quite a bit of countries afaik, it being a precursor 2013-12-04 11:40 oh and muriatic acid too 2013-12-04 11:41 well, peroxide at a low concentration is a desinfectant. you should be able to get at least that (at any pharmacy). the stronger stuff may be more difficult 2013-12-04 11:41 yes, I think peroxide is 15-30ml max 2013-12-04 11:42 and it's not concentrated at that 2013-12-04 11:42 muriatic acid should be at any hardware store :) 2013-12-04 11:42 no 2013-12-04 11:42 it's a precursor 2013-12-04 11:42 here you can only buy via bank transfer from a company account 2013-12-04 11:42 yeah, the weak peroxide will do. you just ,ay not be able to reuse it so well 2013-12-04 11:43 same for KMnO4 and pretty much any interesting compound 2013-12-04 11:43 except probably diluted H2SO4 which is used in Pb rechargeable batteries 2013-12-04 11:43 HCl ? you should come to argentina and buy a few canisters of it ;-) 2013-12-04 11:43 yeah, good luck transporting that back :p 2013-12-04 11:44 hcl is used to balance the acidity of swimming pools. so pool supplies may be a place where you can find it 2013-12-04 11:44 see above, bank transfer from a company account 2013-12-04 11:45 i think it's also used for pipe cleaning or such. maybe you can find something that's 99.9% HCl, 0.1% perfume, and has an innocent-sounding name ;-) 2013-12-04 11:45 well, I think I could buy HCl if I ask around and find someone not related to retail, i.e. ask directly at the factory 2013-12-04 11:45 there has been wide reports of success this way 2013-12-04 11:46 but it's by no account "easily obtainable" 2013-12-04 11:46 okay, not in russia then 2013-12-04 11:48 I thought pipe cleaning was done with bases rather than acids? or are both possible? 2013-12-04 11:49 i heard that story of, one upon a time, cotton barons lobbying for banning hemp on the reason of its potential use as a drug, to get rid of the competition. maybe something like that happened with HCl in russia 2013-12-04 11:49 ^ yeah, here concentrated NaOH is used for that 2013-12-04 11:50 mth: i don't know really what they use it for. i just know there's half a rack full of it in the plumbing section, bottles of 1 l and canisters of 5 l 2013-12-04 11:54 larsc has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-04 11:58 that is, it looked like that about a year ago or so. i have some 7.5 l stocked (i'm not quite sure what i thought back then i'd need all that stuff for), so with an annual consumption of about 1-2 dl, i'm beginning to get interested in longevity research 2013-12-04 12:06 Where do you go with the used fluids? 2013-12-04 12:09 i'd take off the lid and leave the jar outside. that why the water evaporates and i get a small quantity of solids. these go in the trash. 2013-12-04 12:10 but most of the liquids can just be reused. you only need to discard them if they get contaminated with something. 2013-12-04 12:11 in the absence of contamination, i.e., if you discard a batch because its has gotten overly diluted, you could probably also recycle the solids. 2013-12-04 12:14 nickoe has quit [Disconnected by services] 2013-12-04 12:16 nickoe_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 12:22 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 12:24 Ok, that's clear. :) 2013-12-04 12:26 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 12:44 when you let it dry, it forms pretty blueish-green crystals. much nicer to look at than the black-brown sludge FeCl becomes. plus, if your neighbours have seen "Breaking Bad", you can tell them you're improving on Heisenberg's formula :) 2013-12-04 12:44 *g* 2013-12-04 12:45 (well, don't tell them in they're likely to try to get a sample :) 2013-12-04 12:45 s/in/if/ 2013-12-04 12:45 wpwrak meant: "(well, don't tell them if they're likely to try to get a sample :)" 2013-12-04 12:48 wpwrak: be careful that your container lasts that long; my father had kept old photography chemicals and many years later the plastic bottle started leaking 2013-12-04 12:49 in my experience plastic (polystyrene) lives under a year. after that, it becomes extremely brittle, but doesn't leak very much until you try to touch the bottle. 2013-12-04 12:51 it is ostensibly acid-resistant, and the basic chemical probably is, but then there's plastificator 2013-12-04 12:51 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 12:54 mth: i have plastic bottles in a plastic box stored outside (on a ceramic floor, a good distance from the drain) 2013-12-04 12:54 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-04 12:54 need to replace the box, though. it didn't like the last storm ... 2013-12-04 12:55 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 12:57 the bottles are several years old. and yes, they feel a bit brittle. the main problem isn't liquid leakage but gas leakage. i had one under the kitchen sink for a while. then i noticed that all the metal parts in the area were heavily oxidized. than's when it moved to the terrace. 2013-12-04 13:07 larsc has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 13:09 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-04 13:14 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 13:14 qwebirc66255 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 13:15 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-04 13:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 13:16 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 13:19 qwebirc66255 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-04 13:21 qwebirc23855 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 13:22 qwebirc23855 is now known as nicksndye 2013-12-04 13:24 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-04 13:29 pcercuei has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 2013-12-04 13:34 nicksndye is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-04 13:36 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 14:11 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-04 14:12 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 14:25 haha 2013-12-04 14:26 yeah, you should probably put bottles with corrosive liquids into a larger airtight box with some passivator or absorbant stored in the box as well 2013-12-04 14:27 e.g a dish with naOH 2013-12-04 14:27 NaOH even 2013-12-04 14:28 or some other alkali substance 2013-12-04 14:30 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 14:43 nickoe_ is now known as nickoe 2013-12-04 14:49 lars__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 14:49 larsc has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-04 14:50 lars__ is now known as larsc 2013-12-04 15:16 nicksydney has quit [K-Lined] 2013-12-04 15:38 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 15:40 There's so much fun in open hardware. You learn about chemistry, electronics, computer science, mechanical engineering and everything in between. :) 2013-12-04 15:40 Even human psychology. 2013-12-04 15:42 and economy 2013-12-04 15:55 and a lot about medical treatment ;-) 2013-12-04 15:58 oh? 2013-12-04 16:01 re-attaching limbs and such ;) 2013-12-04 16:05 yeah, burns, scratches, cuts, injury from various chemicals... 2013-12-04 16:06 curing with other chenicals ;-) (acrylate works great for small cuts) 2013-12-04 16:06 (also for broken nails) 2013-12-04 16:07 hnggg broken nails :/ 2013-12-04 16:07 silver nitrate 2013-12-04 16:07 eew 2013-12-04 16:07 yeah that's nasty 2013-12-04 16:08 though rather rarely needed in electronics 2013-12-04 16:08 good for sealing wounds though, the color takes a while to wash though 2013-12-04 16:09 hmm, I guess you can use alaun for that 2013-12-04 16:10 less agressive and toxic 2013-12-04 16:12 DocScrutinizer05: (airtight box) naw, they're free to gas out into. the wind will take care of them. and i wouldn't want to have a passivator that has an exothermical reaction in there. having one bottle leak is one thing, melting holes in all of them and the outside container is quite something else :) 2013-12-04 16:13 ooh, english term is alum 2013-12-04 16:13 hmm yeah 2013-12-04 16:14 you probably want to use a passivator that's not that reactive 2013-12-04 16:14 a few shells or sth like that 2013-12-04 16:15 if it gets out, i'll be exposed to evaporation :) if it gets out in the middle of a thunderstorm, it'll be massively diluted before it goes down the drain 2013-12-04 16:16 nah, i'm talking about storing such stuff indoors 2013-12-04 16:17 corrosion of all metal in reach of acid bottles is a known problem, which you can counteract by wrapping the acid bottles into something to passivate the fumes 2013-12-04 16:19 maybe a cloth you tintured with baking soda may do 2013-12-04 16:19 tinctured* 2013-12-04 16:21 hmm, i think i'll leave it just outdoors :) 2013-12-04 16:21 Natriumhydrogencarbonate actually, you don't want the acid in it 2013-12-04 16:22 wpwrak something to consider for anelok V2: http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/04/the-next-gen-usb-plug-to-be-smaller-and-finally-reversible/ (It's A Good Thing, smaller & REVERSIBLE!) 2013-12-04 16:22 sure, outdoors is always a safe bet (unless you face other threats when you keep it there) 2013-12-04 16:23 WTF? 2013-12-04 16:25 OMG! 2013-12-04 16:25 USB Type-C 2013-12-04 16:26 God forbid! 2013-12-04 16:26 why did EU and China say "charging only via USB", anybody? 2013-12-04 16:27 and there i was, already feeling a bit bad about using micro when the world is still largely using mini :) 2013-12-04 16:27 Seems we soon have more USB connector types than we used to have barrel connectors 2013-12-04 16:27 well.. lets see what happens. reversible, 100W OD... sounds too good. but if they make it work, could be nice 2013-12-04 16:27 charging over USB makes a lot of sense since it's a nicely standardized interface. so far the theory ... 2013-12-04 16:27 s/OD/PD 2013-12-04 16:27 roh meant: "well.. lets see what happens. reversible, 100W PD... sounds too good. but if they make it work, could be nice" 2013-12-04 16:28 roh: 110 V, 1 A ? ;-) 2013-12-04 16:28 wpwrak: dunno exactly 2013-12-04 16:28 mybe 50V 2A 2013-12-04 16:28 but they spec-ed 90W on poe 802.3at 2013-12-04 16:29 50-70V or so then.. on multiple pairs (all of them) 2013-12-04 16:29 42V 2.5A 2013-12-04 16:29 one speaks lldp with the switch to discuss power requests when one needs more than 13.5W 2013-12-04 16:29 isn't USB3 some 35V? 2013-12-04 16:33 * DocScrutinizer05 honestly wonders when those standard-inventing dummies consider doing a *nice* one, with just golden pads and magnets under it 2013-12-04 16:35 magnets in the plugs only, while devices have ferromagnetic material. and the plugs need a button to "short" the magnet internally, so any magnetic debris falls off the plug 2013-12-04 16:38 maximum easy attaching of plugs to devices, even in cradle. easy removal, non-destructive even when done wrong 2013-12-04 16:38 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-04 16:39 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 16:40 and when you actually allow magnets in both the plugs and the devices, then you can even get very flexible coding of which plug matches where 2013-12-04 16:41 a 3pole plug will just jump into place to a 8pin attachment field 2013-12-04 16:42 i kinda doubt that magnets should be part of the solution. at these sizes, they would have to be terribly strong to hold the connector in place 2013-12-04 16:43 you don't need insane microscopic plugs like 1.5mm barrel or micro-USB 2013-12-04 16:43 win 47 2013-12-04 16:43 with this sulution your plug cab be 5mm high and 20mm wide 2013-12-04 16:43 i do :) 2013-12-04 16:44 ysionneau: an no, you don't win ;-) 2013-12-04 16:44 :( 2013-12-04 16:44 next time maybe! 2013-12-04 16:45 the problem why manufs want small plug formfactors is they want small holes 2013-12-04 16:46 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 16:46 actually they want no holes ideally (I *hear* Sean ;-P) - with that type of connector they can get that, so no more need to miniaturize 2013-12-04 16:46 FYI if you are interested in buying a Milkymist One R3.5 or a Mixxeo board, please fill in this doodle: http://doodle.com/sbdnetqi4mrf7w9i 2013-12-04 16:47 wpwrak microUSB is FAR more common than miniUSB. Another factoid: microUSB allows far more plug/unplug cycles 2013-12-04 16:47 I'm gathering names, if I get enough (10?) names I can seriously think about starting another production run 2013-12-04 16:48 rjeffries: (more cycles) at least that's what the spec says. i kinda wonder how they reach that conclusion, though :) 2013-12-04 16:49 (more common) dunno. seems that all the spartphones are now micro. but all the rest still seems to be mini. 2013-12-04 16:50 DocScrutinizer05: they also want small devices. else you're talking about the other Qi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_(inductive_power_standard) 2013-12-04 16:50 smartphone unit volume totally swamps any other use case by factor of what ? 1000 or 1,000,000 get serious. LOL 2013-12-04 16:50 regarding connectors, this one gets high praise for its clean mechanical design: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) 2013-12-04 16:50 so maybe in 2032, when the patents expire, usb 7 will have nice connectors :) 2013-12-04 16:50 yes Apple's Lightening is sweet connector. Too bad it is not opne... 2013-12-04 16:51 Apple also has THE best power connector on their laptops, by a few kilometers 2013-12-04 16:52 (volume) i still have a lot more devices that aren't phones than devices that are phones :) 2013-12-04 16:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 16:55 wpwrak: (small devices) so what, thinner than 4mm? smaller than 20mm? 2013-12-04 16:57 the device that *nowhere* has a free area of at least 5*20mm is yet to get built, and I guess when it gets built, no micro-USB will fit in ;-) 2013-12-04 16:57 maybe 20-50 mm for the sides, 5 mm for the thickness. that's about what you can do with Micro USB while still having something else in your device 2013-12-04 16:57 yes, 20x5 mm would be about sufficient for micro 2013-12-04 16:57 ehß 2013-12-04 16:57 ? 2013-12-04 16:58 a micro receptacle is 3 mm tall. add a bit of clearance and a thin plastic case and you have 5 mm 2013-12-04 16:58 so what? 2013-12-04 16:59 wpwrak my perspective is not "what wpwrak has in his lab such as dev boards etc." but how many GAZILLION "things" in teh world use microUSB. It is a non-trivial delta with several zeros after the leading "1" 2013-12-04 17:00 DocScrutinizer05 bless you sir, we understand that Neo900 is not designed as a thin and light device. many (almost all) current high-volume handsets are. so to each his or her own. compavt connectors are indeed a thing. ;) 2013-12-04 17:01 hmm, midi instruments, full-size B or mini-B. digital camera mini-B, keyboard mini-B, RF keyboard, mini-B. okay, they all happen to be in my lab, but that's just because that's where i am most of the time :) 2013-12-04 17:01 WTF? 2013-12-04 17:01 how comes Neo900 in here and now?? 2013-12-04 17:01 >:-( 2013-12-04 17:01 Neo900 is a cool device. It really is! 2013-12-04 17:01 rjeffries: maybe the connector is nice, but the cables are shit. 2013-12-04 17:01 DocScrutinizer05: i think he's congratulating you on using a sturdy 6.3 mm audio connector ;-) 2013-12-04 17:02 lots of broken apple psu around here 2013-12-04 17:02 all cables are shit 2013-12-04 17:02 and so are Porsche, so what? 2013-12-04 17:02 they always break next to the connector/psu 2013-12-04 17:02 i havent had that problem with my lenovo psu. 2013-12-04 17:02 Neo900 was not designed in an era when thin and light was the gold standard. and that's OK. 2013-12-04 17:03 yes, so what? 2013-12-04 17:04 am I mistaken? maybe Neo900 does use microUSB? if so, my apologies 2013-12-04 17:04 how's that related to magnetic plugs that don't have to get inserted to devices? 2013-12-04 17:05 magnetic connectors are a cool idea. I misunderstood (maybe) that you disapprove of microUSB. anyway, enough elctrons have been consumed. 2013-12-04 17:05 that's the complementary Ford approach. he sent his men out to find parts that still looked good in discarded cars, so that he could make them less durable. apple fix the part users complain most about, then weaken something that used to work :) 2013-12-04 17:05 which admittedly would need more surface on device than a microUSB 2013-12-04 17:06 but I think that's irrelevant, for afore elaborated reasons 2013-12-04 17:06 wpwrak ha dnot heard that Henry Ford story. Love it! 2013-12-04 17:09 i probably have it from Dawkins. search for "Ford" on http://www.environmentfoundation.net/reports/richard-dawkins-main-speech.htm 2013-12-04 17:11 rjeffries: I said "yes, you need more area than a micro-USB or similar tiny connector needs, so you get magnets of sufficient strength. But that's irrelevant since devices have enough free surface to attach a 20*5mm magnetic contact there. And divices that are smaller than 20*5mm won't have a micro-USB anyway". wpwrak answered "no, 20*5mm is a KO criterion for that idea since OEM want to build small devices" 2013-12-04 17:14 NB that a 10 pole magnetic connector device-side would need less volume than a micro-USB receptacle 2013-12-04 17:16 would it ? you still need the contact surfaces (which could be shallow, so there you save volume) but then the metal blocks on which your magnets pull 2013-12-04 17:19 blocks? I think a 0.2mm ferromagnetic layer is sufficient 2013-12-04 17:19 0.2mm steel covered with the usual NiCuAg 2013-12-04 17:20 embedded into the plastic case shell 2013-12-04 17:21 a 1mm Neodyme magnet at one contact to fix orientation 2013-12-04 17:23 thinking about it, I guess the whole thing needs 0.0 .. 20mm^3 volume, given you replace parts of the plastic shell with it 2013-12-04 17:27 hmm, i wonder how thin you can make a ferromagnetic layer before it stops working as such. there ought to be some F = X*f(d) where X is surface, field strength, and such, and f(d) is a monotonously increasing function of the thickness of the ferromagnetic sheet 2013-12-04 17:29 very thin metallic foil is still highly magnetic 2013-12-04 17:29 but, the force can be negligible 2013-12-04 17:31 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-04 17:34 depends on saturation 2013-12-04 17:35 eventually all atoms are polarized 8oriented) and the magnetic force will not increase much 2013-12-04 17:35 isn't it more like how much of the field is absorbed by the ferromagnet ? 2013-12-04 17:36 what means "absorbed"? 2013-12-04 17:36 i.e., when you add arbitrarily thin sheets until the force on the last one added is below a threshold, then you have the thickness at which the corresponding portion of the magnetic field is used 2013-12-04 17:37 i'm basically saying that shielding == magnetic force. not sure how close this is to reality 2013-12-04 17:37 yes, that's when enough atoms of the ferromagnetic marerial are polarized to deviate and guide the magnetic field away from the next layer 2013-12-04 17:39 yup 2013-12-04 17:39 when you got a ferritechoke and you increase the current and thus magnetism, it at one point gets saturated and magnetic field escapes from the ferrite core 2013-12-04 17:40 so i would expect the force to increase with thickness. of course not linearly. more like a log curve (too lazy to look up the right sort of function) 2013-12-04 17:40 prolly it does 2013-12-04 17:41 so the question is how much ferromagnet you need before you only get diminishing returns 2013-12-04 17:43 you recall the cig paper magnet thingie I linked photos in here? the ferromagnetic patch is like 8*4mm and maybe 0.3mm thick. The force from that tiny neodyme magnet to this thing is in the 50g range (guessed) 2013-12-04 17:44 hmm, not bad 2013-12-04 17:44 the magnet itself is so thin it doesn't really show when embedded into the carton of the cover 2013-12-04 17:45 maybe 1mm 2013-12-04 17:45 maybe 1.5 2013-12-04 17:46 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-04 17:48 now you need to calculate the forces acting on the connector. cable weight, any pull caused by movement, then the lever effect of the plug 2013-12-04 17:48 for the lever, you probably have a radio of 1:5 to 1:10 2013-12-04 17:49 s/radio/ratio/ 2013-12-04 17:49 wpwrak meant: "for the lever, you probably have a ratio of 1:5 to 1:10" 2013-12-04 17:49 make the "plug2 thin and the cable flexible 2013-12-04 17:49 this of course defeates the "off-button" idea for the magnets 2013-12-04 17:50 you mean "breakable". do you moonshine for apple ? ;-) 2013-12-04 17:50 eh? 2013-12-04 17:50 (off-button) yeah, that one's classical german over-engineering ;-) 2013-12-04 17:50 breakable like "you can bend it by brute force"? 2013-12-04 17:51 naw, flimsy so it's light 2013-12-04 17:51 remember that you may have some 1-1.5 m of cable hang off the connector. 2013-12-04 17:51 what's flimsy with a 0.5mm steel ? 2013-12-04 17:52 i mean the cable ;) 2013-12-04 17:52 sorry, afk 2013-12-04 17:58 no, i mean to use silicon isolation instead crappy hard PVC, proper fine copper braid, and a steel wire for increased strength 2013-12-04 17:59 there are cables strong and flexible like wool string 2013-12-04 18:00 tronger probably 2013-12-04 18:00 stronger 2013-12-04 18:01 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-04 18:01 the industry seems to agree that USB cables are weightless 2013-12-04 18:04 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 18:09 yeah. none specify the mass. 2013-12-04 18:11 quick, make a time machine! 2013-12-04 18:13 54, 30, 12 ... so about 40 g for a total of 1 m cable plus a total of four usb-micro plugs 2013-12-04 18:14 so you get a pull of about 60 g on an 1.5 mm cable. add lever and you magnet needs to be able to hold roughly a 0.5 kg force 2013-12-04 18:15 add some margin and handling tolerances (e.g., if the user moves the device while attached) and you're at 1 kg 2013-12-04 18:15 no way 2013-12-04 18:15 this is a connection and not a stand 2013-12-04 18:16 don't forget the lever 2013-12-04 18:16 that is, unless the connector rotates freely :) 2013-12-04 18:16 heck you're mad, with 500g perpendicular force I rip each micro-USB receptacke off the PCB 2013-12-04 18:17 honestly, I dunno if you're trolling me 2013-12-04 18:17 no, it's < 100 g perpendicular 2013-12-04 18:18 but your contact surface is parallel to the connector surface. and one side will be small, hence the large lever 2013-12-04 18:18 nonsense, I told you the "plug" is lower than wide 2013-12-04 18:19 you mean shorter ? (distance from case) 2013-12-04 18:19 and the distance between contacts and cable exit point maybe 1mm, maybe less 2013-12-04 18:20 you still have the cable's bend radius 2013-12-04 18:20 which is like 5mm max 2013-12-04 18:20 more like 5-10 cm 2013-12-04 18:20 for whatever crap you assume 2013-12-04 18:21 with liquid helium, you get better flexibility, i give you that :) 2013-12-04 18:22 yeah, trolling. Now I'm sure about that at least 2013-12-04 18:22 "WARNING: do not expose to excessive heat (> 1 K)" 2013-12-04 18:22 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if wpwrak ever used headphones. Decent ones with a good cable 2013-12-04 18:23 you can try it: take a micro usb cable, balance the plug on a finger tip. then add a weight on the exposed connector until it's more or less horizontal 2013-12-04 18:23 not those which pop out of your ears when you push the cable 2013-12-04 18:23 then you can calculate the force you're counterbalancing 2013-12-04 18:23 DAFAQ micro-USB cable!!! 2013-12-04 18:23 PVC shit! 2013-12-04 18:23 cheap crap 2013-12-04 18:24 and when I use a power cord I get a radius of 50cm 2013-12-04 18:25 let's see if the pvc matters ... density is about 1.2 g/cm3 2013-12-04 18:25 * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks and heads out 2013-12-04 18:25 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-04 18:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 18:32 how thick shall we assume the pvc is ? 0.5 mm ? 2013-12-04 18:34 so the jacket (cylindrical) is about 5 mm^2 2013-12-04 18:34 per meter that's .... 5k mm^3, or 5 cm^3 2013-12-04 18:36 so about 6 g. reducing the estimate for the 1.5 m cable from 60 g to 50 g if using weightless neojoergodyne instead 2013-12-04 18:37 so that's still a 0.4-0.8 kg force 2013-12-04 18:43 now, balancing a 0.5 mm usb cable, i need at 20 mm a weight of ... 62.6 g 2013-12-04 18:44 so about 1.2 mNm 2013-12-04 18:50 now please do the same for carbonfibre-resin 2013-12-04 18:50 or better: glass 2013-12-04 18:51 err, make that 12 mNm. g = 10 N/kg, not 1 2013-12-04 18:52 i already assumed it's weightless 2013-12-04 18:52 I bet fibre-resin must have about the same specific weight as PVC (remarkably irrespective of the amount of softener in PVC) 2013-12-04 18:52 now, if the force of the ... how tall was it ... 5 mm ? connector was about uniformly distributed, that would be 2.5 mm. so the magnet's holding force would have to be at least ... about 5 N for the 0.5 m cable 2013-12-04 18:53 yeah, and when the moon was made of chestercheese 2013-12-04 18:53 so for 1.5 m we get 15 N. you estimated the 8x4 mm patch to have about 0.5 N 2013-12-04 18:54 can you actually measure it " attach some variable weight an see how far you can go until it separates 2013-12-04 18:55 then measure the weight 2013-12-04 18:55 I bet in 30 minutes you proved mathematically that you can't bend a knot ito a bamboo stick 2013-12-04 18:56 well ... let's be generous. the bending radius will be reduced by having more weight in it, so let's say you need only 10 N 2013-12-04 18:56 let's also assume you underestimated your magnet by a factor of 2 and it actually pulls 1 N 2013-12-04 18:57 just *one* small hint: my "plug" is 20*5*3mm, and the cable comes out at the 5*3mm small end 2013-12-04 18:57 this still means that you need a patch of about 12 x 24 mm. 2013-12-04 18:57 and just maybe my cable is made of FPC 2013-12-04 18:57 so 4mm wide and 0.3mm thick 2013-12-04 18:58 and it has a bend radius of 2mm 2013-12-04 18:58 Fragile Perishable Crap ? :) 2013-12-04 18:59 yes, if you reduce the cable to nothing, then it works rather well :) 2013-12-04 18:59 remember openmoko and the FPC fun with the debug board ? those were about 10 cm with usually very careful handling. i wish thee luck ;-) 2013-12-04 19:01 remember I said *maybe* 2013-12-04 19:01 I'm honestly bored about this discussion 2013-12-04 19:01 [2013-12-04 18:58:32] no, i mean to use silicon isolation instead crappy hard PVC, proper fine copper braid, and a steel wire for increased strength 2013-12-04 19:02 and now, to annoy you, I reinforce my "crappy FPC" with a stainless steel fabric from both sides 2013-12-04 19:02 i subtracted the weight of the outer PVC. so all that's left are the metals and the inner isolations 2013-12-04 19:03 let me think of someone i really hate. someone you should hire for the customer complaints department :) 2013-12-04 19:04 why me? I thought YOU will build those things 2013-12-04 19:04 but yeah, we know you love to troll and criticize 2013-12-04 19:05 indeed ;-) 2013-12-04 19:05 and no, i'll stick with micro USB. let people complain to the USB-IF :) 2013-12-04 19:10 they probably will complain that the USB plug is larger than your Y-thingie 2013-12-04 19:11 /rename #angry-joerg-ranting 2013-12-04 19:11 :p (not that I mind) 2013-12-04 19:12 sorry, watching pages of meaningless math makes me feel like that 2013-12-04 19:12 I really don't mind, it's fascinating to watch 2013-12-04 19:14 and it's not like I suggested to replace the mcro-B-plug at the end of an existing crappy cable by something that looks similar but works kinda different. I tried to explain and discuss a concept 2013-12-04 19:15 maybe there's samples of that already? 2013-12-04 19:16 and the concept might include "cable: must have a bend radius of max 3mm and withstand 500g pull force" in the specs of the connector to define and maybe get produced 2013-12-04 19:17 i just don't think that concept works at such small scales. 2013-12-04 19:17 I don't see how specific weight of PVC comes in there 2013-12-04 19:17 to calculate the weight of it. since you suggested to replace it with something lighter 2013-12-04 19:18 lighter? 2013-12-04 19:18 please point me to where I said anything about weigght 2013-12-04 19:18 [2013-12-04 18:58:32] no, i mean to use silicon isolation instead crappy hard PVC, proper fine copper braid, and a steel wire for increased strength 2013-12-04 19:19 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-04 19:21 you disagreed with my calculation of forces and then suggested to replace PVC with something thinner and supposedly lighter. of course, micro USB has a more forgiving geometry, so they're a bit lower there. 2013-12-04 19:21 that steel cable will cost you, of course ;-) 2013-12-04 19:23 I neither said thinner nor lighter 2013-12-04 19:23 again: 2013-12-04 19:23 [2013-12-04 18:58:32] no, i mean to use silicon isolation instead crappy hard PVC, proper fine copper braid, and a steel wire for increased strength 2013-12-04 19:24 I dunno, maybe that line gets filtered out at your side by some strange spamfilter 2013-12-04 19:26 ah, i thought you disliked the PVC mainly for its weight 2013-12-04 19:26 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-04 19:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 19:46 and another again: my "plug" is 20*5*3mm, and the cable comes out at the 5*3mm small end 2013-12-04 19:47 so no lever at all 2013-12-04 19:48 the only lever you get is 20mm/bending-radius 2013-12-04 19:48 I defined bendig radius as max 5mm 2013-12-04 19:57 bending radius in this context of course needs a force too: 5mm when you pull the long non-fixed end of the cable with 30g, perpendicular to the fixed end of the cable 2013-12-04 19:59 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-04 19:59 the magnet the obviously needs a force of 50g or somesuch, for pulling apart (aka lift off) 2013-12-04 20:00 the outer two contacts of the "plug" shall have slightly convex surface to fit into the concave contact pads on device 2013-12-04 20:00 to avoid shearing 2013-12-04 20:02 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 20:03 actually better use conical shape for those, instead spherical 2013-12-04 20:04 more tolerant to production deviations in dimensions 2013-12-04 20:06 the contact at end of plug must be allowed to move ~0.5mm along the long axis of the plug, in relation to the other one at cable entry side 2013-12-04 20:07 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-04 20:07 hmm, no. make that a "roof shaped" contact with the roof ridge along the long axis of connector 2013-12-04 20:16 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 20:18 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 20:20 (([2013-12-04 18:51:55] remember that you may have some 1-1.5 m of cable hang off the connector.)) No, that's not what this "plug" neither micro-USB is designed for. It should maybe be able to cope with 1m of cable hanging down from the micro-USB plug perpendicularly, but I already try to avoid that since N900 USB receptacles come off easily from PCB 2013-12-04 20:22 the nice part in this magnetic connector is that it doesn't break when you abuse it like that. It simply disconnects 2013-12-04 20:22 while for N900 microUSB such thing might end fatal 2013-12-04 20:23 yes, that benefit is clear. the question is how to make it work such that it doesn't fall off all the time during regular use 2013-12-04 20:24 by using a thin and flexible and lighweight cable 2013-12-04 20:24 like used for good earphones 2013-12-04 20:26 and that cable needs to get specified for bend radius aka stiffness and for strength of pulling it may cope with 2013-12-04 20:27 in the spec of the plug 2013-12-04 20:27 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 20:28 s/plug/connector 2013-12-04 20:28 hmm, i wonder about the stability. but then, maybe i've never seen what you would call "good" earphones 2013-12-04 20:28 stability as in "it tears apart from pulling it"? 2013-12-04 20:29 you can improve that by using one thin steel wire together with the copper braid 2013-12-04 20:31 like a thin guitar string 2013-12-04 20:31 maybe a tad thinner still 2013-12-04 20:31 tensile strength, shearing, etc., the steel cable may actually make part of the issues worse. maybe if you use kevlar or such for all isolation ... 2013-12-04 20:32 in any case, looks a like a very long journey into material science 2013-12-04 20:34 qwebirc26621 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 20:34 qwebirc26621 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-04 20:36 sure 2013-12-04 20:37 you even could use ceaper thicker less flexible cable, starting maybe 10cm away from connector 2013-12-04 20:40 yes, but that may create another potential problem spot 2013-12-04 20:40 simplicity is usually best. let the economy of scale take care of "cheap" :) 2013-12-04 20:41 Hello every one I'm very interested on buying a nanonote but I was wondering if you could help me with a few questions 2013-12-04 20:41 Isn’t en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote the official nanonote's site? It was working a few minutes ago but it seems is not any more for some reason. 2013-12-04 20:41 I wanted to know what was my best option, I live in Mazatlan Sin. Mexico and I'll be travelling to Los Angeles, could some one tell me were would it be better to have a nanonote be shipped? What page and place in the world should I order one from? 2013-12-04 20:41 Thank you. 2013-12-04 20:41 I used to remember that the page tuxbrain used to be an official distributor, but I tried to go to their page and it seems like the domain was bought by some one else. I remember reading an article about them selling a brand new device that I could connect to the nanonote to have it connected to a wifi, was it true? Can I get to buy one too? If the answer is no can I get a Ben WPAN? 2013-12-04 20:43 not sure if the wiki sees much updating these days. i think it serves mainly as a place for static data 2013-12-04 20:43 so you came to the right place :) 2013-12-04 20:44 wpwrak: Thank you 2013-12-04 20:44 shops that are known to still have nanonotes are pulster.eu (few) and www.idasystems.net (more) 2013-12-04 20:45 wpwrak: Thanks again. 2013-12-04 20:45 ben wpan ... would be atben, atusb, or both ? pulster has them. not sure how many. don't know if idasystems has any 2013-12-04 20:46 i guess whether it's best to ship to the us or mexico would mainly depend on how nicely customs in mexico treat you 2013-12-04 20:47 pulster is in germany and idasystems is in india, so for them it should be pretty much the same whether they send it to the us or to mx 2013-12-04 20:49 wpwrak: I see, thank you very much. By any chance do you know what happened to the tuxbrain page? 2013-12-04 20:51 I guess I could find a way to contact them. I think they were located on Spain or something, or perhaps Colombia since I think I remember reading some where that you could get a nanonote shipped form that country. 2013-12-04 20:51 tuxbrain (the company) shut down a good while ago 2013-12-04 20:52 don't remember when exactly ... maybe a year ago ? 2013-12-04 20:53 also sharism.cc, which used to be the original (*) source of nanonotes, milkymist, etc., has gone off the map 2013-12-04 20:53 (*) now a domain grabber has it 2013-12-04 20:55 About the device I think on remembering reading about on tuxbrain for wifi connection, I guess it doesn't exist does it? 2013-12-04 20:57 oh, it does exist. but it's not wifi. it's IEEE 802.15.4. 2013-12-04 21:01 that's the Ben WPAN am I right? 2013-12-04 21:03 yes. there's atben for the ben (goes into the memory card slow) and there's atusb for a (linux) pc 2013-12-04 21:03 then the two can "talk" 2013-12-04 21:03 alas, it seems that all qi-hw servers are down. so i can't show you pictures. 2013-12-04 21:05 ah no, i can. here's an atben being abused in a completely different type of machine: https://github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/blob/master/doc/evb/e407-atben.jpg 2013-12-04 21:06 http://pulster.eu/ also has pictures of atben/atusb if you click on "Nanonote" and scroll down 2013-12-04 21:30 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-04 21:32 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 21:43 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 21:51 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 21:54 wpwrak: Thank you very much for all your help, I'm probably will be joining this community soon. Thanks again and see you around :) 2013-12-04 21:57 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 22:03 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-04 22:11 lekernel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-04 22:11 arielenter: it was a pleasure. and welcome to the club ! :) 2013-12-04 22:17 https://www.olimex.com/ (Fr 29. #35 challenge maze) *YAWN* we coded this 1977 on the HP-25 2013-12-04 22:18 http://www.hpmuseum.org/25.jpg 2013-12-04 22:22 uhh, NOW I get it - at least I thin I do. Looking at https://www.olimex.com/Products/ARM/ST/STM32-E407/open-source-hardware upper left corner 2013-12-04 22:24 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 22:26 (#35) OOPS, I read that cursory, and now I see I missed the changed goal of this one 2013-12-04 22:58 DocScrutinizer05: submit your hp25 solution. you'll probably win :) 2013-12-04 23:00 it's for a different problem, called "xray" maybe 2013-12-04 23:00 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 23:01 you send in a beam and it gets deviated 90° when you hit a impority one-off. and it gets absorbed if you hit the imurity without offset 2013-12-04 23:01 you see where beam comes out (if it does) when you send it in 2013-12-04 23:01 kinda like minesweeper, just a tad more smart 2013-12-04 23:02 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-04 23:02 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-04 23:05 dang, lemme try it once with ALL the RIGHT letters in it: impurity 2013-12-04 23:07 ah, so you'd even use fractional coordinates 2013-12-04 23:19 bartbes has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-04 23:19 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-04 23:24 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-04 23:47 modern language is complicated. great Maxwell simply called it his "demon" :) 2013-12-05 00:00 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:08 bummer that sharism.cc domain evaporated. but maybe it doesn't matter? qi-hardware.com is used more methinks. 2013-12-05 00:14 https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5294.html The Exploration and Exploitation of an SD Memory Card 2013-12-05 00:14 sti.cki.ng -> http://www.crowdsupply.com/chibitronics/circuit-stickers 2013-12-05 00:15 sharism.cc was the shop. that shop stopped operating many months ago. so it makes sense in a way to shut down sharism.cc 2013-12-05 00:16 (sd card) nice. maybe anelok doesn't need an mcu after all ;-)) 2013-12-05 00:18 boot from the wireless, read new sd firmware from the card, reflash the card's firmware, then delegate control there. oh yes, even more advanced that broadcom's boot-through-the-gpu :) 2013-12-05 00:19 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:28 boot with no mcu from wireless? :? 2013-12-05 00:29 802.11omega 2013-12-05 00:32 https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5545.html <- bitcoin hardware wallet 2013-12-05 00:32 there's going to be some interesting hardware talks at 30c3. Anyone going there? 2013-12-05 00:40 looked a the trezor a whole ago. limited in scope but the concept seems nice. 2013-12-05 00:43 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:43 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 00:46 wpwrak when you launch anelok on Indiegogo or similar place, maybe a "stretch" goal at significant extra funding could be a Bitcoin wallet? May be too demanding of CPU etc however... 2013-12-05 00:51 i like the idea of having a wallet. i don't so much like the idea of having this as a "stretch goal". stretch goals would basically have to be something that falls into your lap. 2013-12-05 00:51 otherwise you're putting your schedule at risk 2013-12-05 00:53 also, it's open, so anyone can develop things for it. it wouldn't make sense for me to promise a feature that someone else may make. in fact, if it promised it, that may prevent others from doing it 2013-12-05 00:56 of course, the better the thing sells, the more money will be there for new things. that could also mean better hardware. 2013-12-05 01:00 understood. silly me, focusing on what might create buzz. Bitcoin anything is so shiny 2013-12-05 01:06 oh, it is :) 2013-12-05 01:06 of course, the BTC hype is now. so maybe it should be a worldcoin wallet. or whatever the next one will be :) 2013-12-05 01:50 BTC is a PITA, for accepting payments 2013-12-05 01:52 and actually I fail to grok the whole concept, or rather the idea behind it. It's still depending on a centralized structure to log where which amount sits, AIUI 2013-12-05 01:53 why is it a PITA ? 2013-12-05 01:53 reports say they recently busted several drug dealers by monitoring that 2013-12-05 01:54 ah yes, it's not quite as anonymous as some people may think :) 2013-12-05 01:54 (that's not the PITA, the PITA is constantly changing exchange rates) 2013-12-05 01:55 yeah, that needs some flexibility :) 2013-12-05 01:55 probably the best approach is - if you want to play it safe - to convert what you absolutely must have immediately (or at least soon), keep the rest to see if it increases 2013-12-05 01:56 and add a safety margin on any BTC prices you announce 2013-12-05 01:58 there may actually be some money to be made in offering a service that pays a given amount of USD, EUR, etc., in exchange for BTC. basically "send us BTC X by 00:00 UTC today and we'll wire USD Y to the account you specify" 2013-12-05 01:58 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 01:59 the definition of "send" would be a bit tricky, of course, since as i understand it, a transfer may take a variable amount of time. and you probably don't have a proof of emission before the transfer completes. well, maybe you do. the experts will know :) 2013-12-05 02:01 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-05 02:01 wpwrak: mhm, please calculate 19% VAT on that 2013-12-05 02:01 an arrival deadline would work too, of course: you tell people how many hours/days they should initiate the transfer in advance, and it it arrives by the deadline you pay. otherwise you send it back (minus transfer fees and maybe a small handling fee) 2013-12-05 02:01 i don't think banks pay VAT on exchanges ;-) 2013-12-05 02:02 but the webshop has to do 2013-12-05 02:02 do pay Finanzamt with BTC? 2013-12-05 02:02 i'm talking about a payment service that would solve your "BTC is too volatile" problem 2013-12-05 02:03 how you calculate your EUR prices is still your problem :) 2013-12-05 02:03 toldya: PITA 2013-12-05 02:04 wpwrak: transaction speed depends on fee 2013-12-05 02:05 and actually some "proof" of transaction is available almost instantly - but if you want to be immune to some frauds, you have to wait for more confirms 2013-12-05 02:06 DocScrutinizer05: only if such a service doesn't exist. otherwise, it's like accepting EUR. 2013-12-05 02:06 on typical, recommended fee it's the matter of 10-15 minutes 2013-12-05 02:06 webshop needs to send out an invoice, drawn on EUR, with 19% VAT which you will have to pay to tax office 2013-12-05 02:06 it needs to do that just in time 2013-12-05 02:07 with zero fee - it may be almost infinity, or may be 10-15 minutes as well - depending on your luck 2013-12-05 02:07 afaik 2013-12-05 02:07 this whole BTC feels like a bic rippoff 2013-12-05 02:08 big even 2013-12-05 02:10 it's an interesting idea and even more interesting implementation, but for it to work well as a currency it needs some exchange rate that's not just a function of demand :P 2013-12-05 02:11 every currency works on the basis of some entity controlling it 2013-12-05 02:11 and some charts that do not look like a giant bubble 2013-12-05 02:11 http://bitcoinwisdom.com/ - choose 3d 2013-12-05 02:12 and every modern currency works on the basis of infinite but closely controlled resources - I.E. *somebody* cna always print enough dollars 2013-12-05 02:13 BTC is limited by math, i heard 2013-12-05 02:13 oh yes, the fun with btc will start when mining ends and there's no flow of new coins 2013-12-05 02:13 dos1: no 3D in settings here 2013-12-05 02:13 wpwrak: i mean time period, 3 days :) 2013-12-05 02:13 in 3 years or whatever, the last Bitcoin will be calculated, and then that's it 2013-12-05 02:14 ah yes, taking off quite nicely :) 2013-12-05 02:14 of course, if you want crazy, try LTC :) 2013-12-05 02:15 yeah, almost 50x up in one month 2013-12-05 02:16 DocScrutinizer05: "regular" currencies have a huge bubble too, thanks to all the "virtual" money made through derivatives 2013-12-05 02:16 and I considered buying some 2 or 3 litecoins back when they were at $1 2013-12-05 02:16 of course turned out to be too lazy :) 2013-12-05 02:16 DocScrutinizer05: so their only safety is that not enough people accept that they're about as bad a BTC 2013-12-05 02:17 dos1: you can still mine them. with a decent PC, you may be able to get 2-3 per year ;-) 2013-12-05 02:17 yup, I know :D 2013-12-05 02:18 dos1: multiply with 10 if you have a top-notch GPU 2013-12-05 02:18 and what's the saddest 2013-12-05 02:18 o.O 2013-12-05 02:19 I wanted to mine some btc few years ago, when it just started 2013-12-05 02:19 just because it seemed cool idea 2013-12-05 02:19 I installed the client and thought that it's enough 2013-12-05 02:19 yeah, back when 2013-12-05 02:20 checked after few days - it was doing something with cpu, but still 0 btc 2013-12-05 02:20 so I just went "meh" and removed it 2013-12-05 02:21 that much about becoming a millionaire. now go back to washing dishes :) 2013-12-05 02:21 now when I know a bit about it, seems like it was eating some cpu when keeping in sync with blockchain, and of course mining had to be turned on by some console option 2013-12-05 02:21 heh. tricky :) 2013-12-05 02:22 I guess back then I could easily mine full blocks on CPU and get some 50 BTC rewards 2013-12-05 02:22 worth some fraction of cent back then :) 2013-12-05 02:22 so you blew your early retirement 2013-12-05 02:23 well... I guess I'd probably have sold it already by now :D 2013-12-05 02:24 but maybe if I'd forget about them at all and just remind myself about it right now 2013-12-05 02:24 wpwrak: seems like my prayer has been answered http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Printers/Laser-Printers-and-Multifunctions/Mono-Laser-Printers/FXP205B# ... what you think ? 2013-12-05 02:24 then yeah... awful :P 2013-12-05 02:26 "This is a GDI printer and is not compatible with Linux and UNIT operating systems." 2013-12-05 02:27 nice, so there are people in IT support who still can't spell "UNIX" :) 2013-12-05 02:27 but according to this, that "official" answer may be wrong; http://askubuntu.com/questions/98016/alternative-printer-driver-for-fuji-xerox-docuprint-p205b 2013-12-05 02:29 dang ! 2013-12-05 02:29 naw, what this says is that it's probably okay. but you need foo2hbpl: http://foo2hbpl.rkkda.com/ 2013-12-05 02:30 apparently toner is $$$ but the, if you only use it for toner transfer, the initial kit will last a very very long time 2013-12-05 02:32 something like a for a century or two 2013-12-05 02:34 this guy seems happy with it: http://www.electronicspoint.com/toner-transfer-pcbs-having-bga-packages-them-t246521.html 2013-12-05 02:34 wpwrak: yeah my plan is to use that for the toner transfer .. but once in a while can be used as backup printer in case my son's printer go bonker :) 2013-12-05 02:35 i saw this laminator hack http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 ... and the laminator is sold at the same store for $16 2013-12-05 02:36 but i need to buy the 10-Amp thermostat which is costing $10 :( 2013-12-05 02:38 phew. that's what i call brute force 2013-12-05 02:38 i modded mine to run more slowly. so no significantly increased meltdown risk. 2013-12-05 02:39 the circuit that does the trick is a PIC with a relay, cutting power to the motor at ~1 Hz. crude but works :) 2013-12-05 02:40 (don't remember the duty cycle) 2013-12-05 02:41 damn the thermostat is quite expensive 2013-12-05 02:42 unless i buy from HK :) http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Pcs-190C-Celsius-N-C-2-Flat-Pin-Terminal-Ceramic-Thermostat-10-Amp-AC-250V-/400553516499?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5d42d99dd3 2013-12-05 03:12 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 03:22 WOW those guys are... brave^H^H^H^H MAD! 2013-12-05 03:22 *soldering* a 240°C thermal fuse (RS# 1769356) 2013-12-05 03:23 I gues the could simply replace the fuse by a few cm of the solder wire 2013-12-05 03:25 nicksydney: when you plan to hw-mod that http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 stuff, I *urgently* recommend to CRIMP stuff and not use soldering *anywhere* 2013-12-05 03:26 ;-)) 2013-12-05 03:28 DocScrutinizer05: you're just jealous. you already had your apartment fire, so you can never have that "first time" experience again. the confusion, the delightful agony, the realization that you may survive after all, ... 2013-12-05 03:28 yeah :-S 2013-12-05 03:29 DocScrutinizer05: sorry don't understand what you mean crimp ? which part ? 2013-12-05 03:29 but this one as well might end in electrocution 2013-12-05 03:29 DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the heads up...anything to make me stay alive :) 2013-12-05 03:29 nicksydney: *all* parts 2013-12-05 03:30 don't even *think* about using your soldering iron on that thing 2013-12-05 03:30 nicksydney: what he's saying is that, after the modification, the critter will operate at or near the temperature at which the solder melts. 2013-12-05 03:31 wpwrak: ahhhh gotcha. 2013-12-05 03:31 of course, what may be even more interesting are the flash points (i think that's the right word ?) of all the inflammable materials in the area :) 2013-12-05 03:31 any tips on how to crimp the right way 2013-12-05 03:32 there are hollow rivets 2013-12-05 03:32 usually used to treat wire ends that are braid copper 2013-12-05 03:33 nicksydney: i like your determination :) 2013-12-05 03:33 http://www.google.de/images?hl=en-DE&q=aderendhuelse&gbv=2&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=6fOfUo6eMZOIhQee_YH4Aw&ved=0CDkQsAQ 2013-12-05 03:34 and http://www.google.de/images?q=crimpzange&hl=en-DE&gbv=2&oq=crimpzange&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l5.42229.45725.0.46396.10.6.0.4.4.0.73.417.6.6.0....0...1ac.1.24.img..0.10.427.bEHddDIPFNA 2013-12-05 03:34 first it looks a little .. let's say strange. then you get suspicious. then you see the warning signs. then somebody tells you. then you see the little crucifices on the roadside. then you hear the screaming. ... :) 2013-12-05 03:35 looks like it's easier to use iron 2013-12-05 03:35 safer i guess :) 2013-12-05 03:35 yes 2013-12-05 03:36 this hw mod would make me feel a tad uncomfortable 2013-12-05 03:36 i think i stick with iron for now and worry about laminator for next time until i know what i'm doing ..don't want to have disaster working with high voltage 2013-12-05 03:36 allright so will buy the printer only in that case 2013-12-05 03:37 my approach: battery-powered MCU + relay on the (mains) power supply to the motor. battery-powered so that i don't have to build a proper power supply. quick and dirty but it works. oh, and apply acrylic spray (isolation) generously on that pcb :) 2013-12-05 03:37 does this paper sounds good for printing the pcb design http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Office-Supplies/Paper/Photo-Paper/Gloss-Photo-Paper/INHPD8008 ? 2013-12-05 03:37 nicksydney: printer first sounds good to me 2013-12-05 03:37 * DocScrutinizer05 waves 2013-12-05 03:38 * DocScrutinizer05 heads out to get some milk and pretzel 2013-12-05 03:39 DocScrutinizer05: .....and don't forget some yogurt :) .hahaha 2013-12-05 03:39 (paper) looks decent enough. you may want to get a few papers and then try how well they work 2013-12-05 03:39 ROTFL >>If anything CATCHES FIRE, we're not responsible (seriously, don't even attempt this modification)<< 2013-12-05 03:39 the mixture is basically: paper, amount of alcoholic cleaning you apply to the paper, and then the heating process 2013-12-05 03:41 wpwrak: "alchholic cleaning you apply to the paper" ..do you mean that I need to clean the paper first with alcohol ? 2013-12-05 03:41 >>Solder as quickly as possible to avoid destroying the fuse!<<< MUHAHAHAHAAAAHAAA 2013-12-05 03:42 nicksydney: some papers have some sort of gelatine on top. if you remove that, it'll work better. you need to apply a bit of alcohol (can be very little, can be a little more. don't soak the paper, though. else it'll take forever to dry.), then wipe off the sludge with a paper towel 2013-12-05 03:43 IN!CRED!IBLE! 2013-12-05 03:44 DocScrutinizer05: then place the large bags of fertilizer right underneath and apply a generous quantity of diesel ... 2013-12-05 03:44 yeah 2013-12-05 03:44 wpwrak: can i use nail acetone ? 2013-12-05 03:44 wpwrak: my wife got few lying around :_) 2013-12-05 03:44 no 2013-12-05 03:45 contains oil 2013-12-05 03:45 nicksydney: and it's usually too aggressive 2013-12-05 03:45 oh ok ... what kind of alcohol you recommend 2013-12-05 03:45 bbl 2013-12-05 03:45 isoprophylic is the usual cleaning choice. you can get it at high purity. 2013-12-05 03:46 unless they're nasty taxes on it, also high-concentration ethylene (from the supermarket) will work 2013-12-05 03:47 let me check from a website 2013-12-05 03:49 this .. http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=40678 ? 2013-12-05 03:49 isoprophylic is also used as a spray. that's convenient for cleaning stuff. of course, more it's expensive than just as a liquid. 2013-12-05 03:50 or perhaps from this http://shop.pharmacydirect.com.au/pharmacy/Isopropyl%20Alcohol ? 2013-12-05 03:51 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 03:51 i wish they indicated the concentration/purity 2013-12-05 03:52 well, it's probably written on the back of the bottle 2013-12-05 03:52 ok will check later in their store 2013-12-05 03:55 http://www.isocol.com.au/ -> "99% OF GERMS! USE ISOCOL" ;-) 2013-12-05 03:55 but since they have "100%" stuff there, the rest of probably high-purity as well 2013-12-05 03:57 wonders if maybe DRINKING alcohol when making PCBs using laser printer is also effective? 2013-12-05 03:57 wpwrak: you think that should be ok ? 2013-12-05 03:58 btw, this is the spray version: http://www.edelta.com.ar/edelta/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypagem&product_id=535&category_id=70&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 2013-12-05 03:58 yeah, looks okay-ish 2013-12-05 03:58 and yes, drinking steadies the hands :) 2013-12-05 03:59 and calms the mind 2013-12-05 04:05 they probably had a bottle of sibierian permafrost vodka before making that laminator mod. very calm mind. no fear at all :) 2013-12-05 04:09 wpwrak: hahahhahha 2013-12-05 04:12 this is a nice one: https://www.schneier.com/news-072.html 2013-12-05 04:12 the best is at the end. "two eyes" :) 2013-12-05 04:17 99% of germs use isocol? wow, what uses the remaining 1%? 2013-12-05 04:18 what are using the remaining 1%? ? 2013-12-05 04:18 they probably use 100% H2O2 for their dental hygiene 2013-12-05 04:19 after vigorously shaking the bottle, of course 2013-12-05 04:36 wpwrak: i think this is the right one http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=NA1066 ? 2013-12-05 04:42 yeah, that's good ! 2013-12-05 04:43 awesome !...tonight is the night.... 2013-12-05 04:43 going to buy those 2 ...late shoping tonight 2013-12-05 04:43 hehe. nothing like an early xmas :) 2013-12-05 04:46 yeah true....especially doing something new ...really excite me... 2013-12-05 04:46 the other thing i need is the kit to remove copper from the pcb 2013-12-05 04:47 what you think about this http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 ? 2013-12-05 04:48 just realised that kit does not have the chemical needed 2013-12-05 04:48 only the tray and few tools and copper 2013-12-05 04:52 wpwrak: you mention " HCl + H2O2 is a LOT better than ferric chloride. you can find the ingredients everywhere, it's a clean liquid and it stays clear (unlike FeCl with all the black sludge building up in there), it works perfectly at room temperature (FeCl: wants heating), and you can just store and reuse it " 2013-12-05 04:52 1 x 100g Sachet of Sodium Persulphate etchant 2013-12-05 04:54 DocScrutinizer05: my chem is not that superb :)...any humanly name like for example dish soap or something :) 2013-12-05 04:55 wpwrak: that seems too complicated and difficult to find..unless I can find it through household items 2013-12-05 04:55 :) 2013-12-05 04:56 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natriumpersulfat 2013-12-05 04:57 http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 has etchant 2013-12-05 04:57 actually a rather good one 2013-12-05 04:57 though not stable, it will deteriorate once you used it 2013-12-05 04:58 true...so at least for few times use should be ok 2013-12-05 04:58 yes 2013-12-05 04:59 don't heat the etching bath to more than 50°C since that speeds up the deterioration of the Na2S2O8 2013-12-05 04:59 is it better to add hot water ? 2013-12-05 04:59 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if wpwrak would accept Na2S2O8 as a substitute for the fertilizer mentioned before 2013-12-05 05:01 well, adding hot water speeds up the time til etching kicks in, you don't need to heat it in the bath container 2013-12-05 05:01 Na2S2O8 is a salt 2013-12-05 05:01 you need to add water anyway 2013-12-05 05:02 I guess they have a blurb 2013-12-05 05:02 where they explain exactly what to do 2013-12-05 05:02 the PCB seems to be coated with photoresist 2013-12-05 05:04 so instead of transferring the toner, you could try exposing the PCB-coated via a transparent foil with the toner on it 2013-12-05 05:04 ok once i have it will go through instruction or some sort blurb 2013-12-05 05:04 expose it without ultraviolet right ? 2013-12-05 05:05 it's a photopositive, so the areas that get exposed to light will vanish aiui. Rather they will vanish when you "develop" the PCB in developer bath 2013-12-05 05:05 then you can etch 2013-12-05 05:05 the traces should be protected by the non-exposed photoresist 2013-12-05 05:06 ah ok 2013-12-05 05:06 understood 2013-12-05 05:06 boy you guys are smart :) 2013-12-05 05:06 * nicksydney bow down to DocScrutinizer05 and wpwrak 2013-12-05 05:07 get overhead foil for your printer! 2013-12-05 05:08 to print the layout on it 2013-12-05 05:08 needs to be laserprinter-proof 2013-12-05 05:08 this is IMPORTANT 2013-12-05 05:09 DocScrutinizer05: glossy paper for laser printer should do fine ? 2013-12-05 05:10 then - after printing layout - you check the thing holding it against the light, and see if there are any holes or sth. Use a touch-up pen to fix those holes 2013-12-05 05:10 DocScrutinizer05: ok 2013-12-05 05:10 DocScrutinizer05: this kind of glossy paper -- http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/search/glossy+photo+paper 2013-12-05 05:10 for exposure to the photoresist you neet transparent 2013-12-05 05:10 ohh ok 2013-12-05 05:11 something like this http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Projectors/Overhead-Projectors/ACPP100C20 2013-12-05 05:11 btw it's a good idea to make the toner on the downside of the transparent foil, directly on top of the photoresist, so you have no light bleeding under the black traces 2013-12-05 05:13 hmm probably should fit. Copier works like laserprinter 2013-12-05 05:14 take care! whatever method you use, both need the layout printed mirrored to what it shall be on PCB! 2013-12-05 05:15 ideally you write some letters like "TOP" on the layout, at a location where it doesn't interfere with your electrical traces 2013-12-05 05:16 then you'll notice easily later on when you got something the wrong way round 2013-12-05 05:16 no kidding, I already created and etched and drilled mirrored PCBs. Then I started swearing 2013-12-05 05:20 (([2013-12-05 06:04:46] expose it without ultraviolet right ?)) there will be instructions how and how long to expose. IIRC it's something like "30s of full noon sun. OR 5 min under a 30W FL lamp, at 50cm distance)" 2013-12-05 05:20 but yes, afaik basically UV 2013-12-05 05:21 so handling isn't really that hard, when you sit in a dark room with one dim incandescent lamp 2013-12-05 05:21 instructions paper will elaborate on all this 2013-12-05 05:24 when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose and complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method 2013-12-05 05:24 s/and com/com/ 2013-12-05 05:24 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method" 2013-12-05 05:26 wpwrak: seen the copper recycling with steel wool recommendation for Na2S2O8 ? 2013-12-05 05:26 ;-D 2013-12-05 05:51 DocScrutinizer05 specs for your Neo900 are impressive. the work wpwrak is doing with BTLE might benefit your project. 2013-12-05 05:52 hmm maybe, though I doubt we will have a BT module that can profit from any such work 2013-12-05 05:53 I really like how the project exposes several useful interfaces, including I2C and RS232. any chance you might expose SPI also 2013-12-05 05:53 my thought is your design could incorportae the BT chip wpwrak has selected. 2013-12-05 05:53 ooops, the RS232 should have gone already, we probably won't support that anymore 2013-12-05 05:54 ok, not a biggie. re RS232 2013-12-05 05:54 SPI woudl be handy however 2013-12-05 05:54 we'll see what can get done 2013-12-05 05:54 somebody on your project must be a serious audio nut 2013-12-05 05:55 hmm, that's prolly me 2013-12-05 05:55 fair enough. on e thinks of a use case as a nice portable recording kit. using Audacity maybe 2013-12-05 05:55 iirc I pushed Nikolaus to have line-in, back when 2013-12-05 05:56 yep, something like that should be possible 2013-12-05 05:56 I'd honestly like to have built in stereo mic 2013-12-05 05:57 though I'm not convinced about the mini-micro's quality for HiFi recording 2013-12-05 05:57 yeah that would be great. but a way to have two lavalier mics one for interview subject, one for interviewer, recorded on seperate tracks... 2013-12-05 05:58 I am not a music guy. think more of NPR-ish (apiratioal) podcasts 2013-12-05 05:58 well, you got line-in for that. I will try to make sure it comes with micbias for power, and a proper mic pre-amp 2013-12-05 05:58 ok 2013-12-05 05:59 but hey, probably you could use internal mic for one and BT headset mic for the other 2013-12-05 05:59 when do you exhaust supply of Nokia cases and keyboards 2013-12-05 05:59 and mix up to a stereo track 2013-12-05 05:59 cases are our least problem, they are abundance 2013-12-05 06:00 though mostly of inferior quality 2013-12-05 06:00 Did Nokia keep a warehouse of them or some such 2013-12-05 06:00 nah, chinese knock-offs 2013-12-05 06:00 I see. Had no idea... 2013-12-05 06:00 in white, silver, gold, and even original black 2013-12-05 06:01 hope keyboard feel is not too bad... 2013-12-05 06:01 we'll either use original Nokia domesheets, or build our own 2013-12-05 06:01 what is current state of software? sorry, I have not been following your project 2013-12-05 06:02 keymat is a piece of plastic 2013-12-05 06:02 we're not doing software 2013-12-05 06:02 let's hope a serious community forms 2013-12-05 06:02 and does not piss in too many different directions.. LOL 2013-12-05 06:03 there's FPTF 2013-12-05 06:03 and replicant 2013-12-05 06:03 and SHR which dos1 will take care about, he said 2013-12-05 06:04 I see FPTF as the main battlefield and primary OS for Neo900 2013-12-05 06:04 my image of Neo900 is it is a pocket computer tha happens to also support a phone and mobile data LTE or HSPA and has a middling camet=ra as well 2013-12-05 06:04 well, actually the OS is not called FPTF 2013-12-05 06:05 yes, that's exactly what N900 and Neo900 are 2013-12-05 06:07 if they can get Maemo woring more or less that's pretty sweet 2013-12-05 06:07 does it look like 1 GB RAM will be feasible? 2013-12-05 06:08 well, see the FPTF thread. I have no doubt we will get it working for the most part. There are a few nasty parts like audio management and particularly modem/call audio. And liblocation (GPS et al) 2013-12-05 06:08 DocScrutinizer05: looking to run Android on it too ;) 2013-12-05 06:09 1GB RAM depends on whether we can source the RAM chips 2013-12-05 06:09 chances for that are way better when we ask for 1000 than when we only need 250 2013-12-05 06:09 ok. all in good time. I think 1GB RAM will be very VERY sweet 2013-12-05 06:10 of course. I suspect you may get to N=1,000 2013-12-05 06:10 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/516/ 2013-12-05 06:15 well, for now we're idling at 215 2013-12-05 06:15 long way till 1000 2013-12-05 06:22 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 06:25 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 06:32 LOL! NSA records 5E9 location update records of mobile phones worldwide - per DAY 2013-12-05 06:32 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 06:34 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 06:57 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 07:05 basically almost everybody 2013-12-05 07:11 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 07:18 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 07:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:07 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:12 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:25 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 08:32 maybe not 2013-12-05 08:32 when that bot could calculate. I'd say 2013-12-05 08:32 ~5*10**9 / 200*10**6 2013-12-05 08:33 and conclude that americans alone can easily create 5 billion location updates per day 2013-12-05 08:34 http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production 2013-12-05 08:35 I have a hard time to see how they could collect any comprehensive coverage of cell handover / loation update data from German carriers 2013-12-05 08:37 they'd need either a monitor RX network covering *all* BTS, or a spyware/tap to all carrier's location register servers (or whatstheterm) 2013-12-05 08:40 anyway I will make sure you can monitor the Neo900 modem not only for active handover (LAC change, TX) but also for cell handover in same LAC, and particularly for *all* TX as well as all activation of modem-internal GPS 2013-12-05 08:41 and of course make sure GPS is "deaf" when not enabled by user 2013-12-05 09:06 lekernel_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 09:06 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 09:31 carriers probably hand them the data on a silver tablet 2013-12-05 09:58 not really. Rather they don't even notice. I just recall the standardized wiretap-interface that every carrier needs to provide to authorities 2013-12-05 09:58 I bet NSA knows how to log in there 2013-12-05 10:00 only carriers with iirc <1000 users don't need this interface 2013-12-05 10:02 and best of all: the specs say carrier MUST NOT have any means to tell, who and when accessed which data via that interface 2013-12-05 10:02 :-P 2013-12-05 10:05 argh. you close your eyes for moment and you get this :-( 2013-12-05 10:05 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:05 that pcb eching kits is for the photochemical process. that's the ancient, messy approach. toner transfer skips all this. 2013-12-05 10:06 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:07 http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_es/201600_201699/201671/01.01.01_60/es_201671v010101p.pdf 2013-12-05 10:09 for photochemical you nees: special coated PCB + transparent positive/negative mask (transparent film) -> UV light (sunlight or special lamp) -> developer (chemical) -> and then the etching 2013-12-05 10:09 you close your eyes? that's pretty silly! :-P 2013-12-05 10:10 for toner transfer it's: uncoated PCB (i.e., just copper, no chemicals) -> toner transfer paper (not transparent, with toner on it) -> heat (iron) -> etching 2013-12-05 10:10 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i should stop doing that :) 2013-12-05 10:11 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:11 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:14 DocScrutinizer05: (case colors) what, no "hello kitty" ? :) 2013-12-05 10:15 wpwrak: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/12/new-usb-type-c-connector-is-smaller-reversible-supports-usb-3-1/ 2013-12-05 10:15 you forgot the proper cleaning and mechanical treatment of the PCB for toner transfer 2013-12-05 10:16 while you can forget this for the already coated photoresist PCBs 2013-12-05 10:16 (neo900) so there's no freemantle ? i thought that was your main direction ? or is FPTF another name for FM ? 2013-12-05 10:16 a) fremantle b) Fremantle Porting Task Force 2013-12-05 10:18 DocScrutinizer05: (FM) hmm, in a world where everything is f* (free), you'd think they'd keep the "M" :) 2013-12-05 10:19 hmm? 2013-12-05 10:21 (photoresist) well, true. but what happens if you need a small board ? can you even cut the critters properly ? and then, storing the part you didn't use. also, requiring photo-coating limits your board choices. 2013-12-05 10:21 yes 2013-12-05 10:21 and if course it's quite incompatible with DIY CNC. luckily, that won't be nick's problem :) 2013-12-05 10:22 just saying. When he got the photocoated PCB anyway, why not try it? 2013-12-05 10:23 rjeffries: (usb c) they still don't show what it'll look like. seems that they don't know themselves. so i'd treat all that as vapourware so far. it's design goals, not a design. 2013-12-05 10:24 HAH! my concept is further evolved already ;-P 2013-12-05 10:25 DocScrutinizer05: indeed, we already know that yours can't exist. we still have to make that step for the new USB-V :) ("-V" since it's vapour, and the letter is conveniently located right next to C) 2013-12-05 10:25 it can't exist in your mind, since you fail to understand it 2013-12-05 10:27 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:29 yeah, governed by the mercilessly strict laws of physics ;-) 2013-12-05 10:29 (ptotocoated pcb) ah well, it'll be a fine mess if he tries to mix a photo process with non-photo ... 2013-12-05 10:32 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-05 10:33 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:34 (physics) sure, there are clear physical laws that forbit lifting of elephants with a microfibre 2013-12-05 10:34 forbid even 2013-12-05 10:35 I'm sure you picked your parameters so the result of your funny evaluation was the one you hoped for 2013-12-05 10:36 btw accusing me of projecting a *physically* impossible spec is rather insulting 2013-12-05 10:36 you should team up with Andrea Rossi, the great inventor of the cold fusion reactor :) 2013-12-05 10:36 okay let 2013-12-05 10:36 you should team up with a few other trolls I know 2013-12-05 10:36 's say "implausible" :) 2013-12-05 10:37 the troll, pinnacle of evolution on the intertubes :) 2013-12-05 10:38 the last "plausible" concern I heard from your side been "maybe I never seen what you'd call 'decent' earphone cords" 2013-12-05 10:38 sorry I'm not wasting my time for gossip on that level 2013-12-05 10:40 since I have other definition of "physically impossible" 2013-12-05 10:40 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:41 I already explained how my concept could stand pulling forces that a microusb would answer with simply lifting off the PCB 2013-12-05 10:41 and that's rugged enough in my book 2013-12-05 10:44 but probably that's been just another few lines that got stuck in the magic spamfilter 2013-12-05 10:44 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:44 don't worry, i understand the benefits of connectors that just fall off when abused 2013-12-05 10:45 I don't worry about your comments regarding this topic any more - don't worry 2013-12-05 10:45 ;-) 2013-12-05 10:47 it's abslutely clear to me that they have no value for actually evaluating the concept 2013-12-05 10:48 you got your notion and you wanna keep it and to do so you ignore stuff I *repeat* 3 times. Fine with me 2013-12-05 10:49 dos1 has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-05 10:53 on an unrelated topic: nobody suggested mixing of any processes 2013-12-05 10:53 oops, sound related in a weird way 2013-12-05 10:54 DocScrutinizer05 has left #qi-hardware ["Konversation terminated!"] 2013-12-05 10:59 well, that will happen if i guide him through a toner transfer process and you encourage him to get equipped for photochemical ;-) 2013-12-05 11:00 sure, you didn't come up with the idea. but i think we was clear from the preceding discussion what we were talking about toner transfer ... 2013-12-05 11:01 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-05 11:15 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 11:20 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 11:27 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 11:29 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:04 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 13:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:10 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:10 On the PCB topic: http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-fab-in-a-box-kit.html 2013-12-05 13:15 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:16 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-05 13:22 basic toner transfer kit. i wonder what the green/white TRF foil is supposed to accomplish, though. once the toner is one the board, you can just proceed to etching ... 2013-12-05 13:23 hmm. http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-green-trf-foil.html 2013-12-05 13:23 i'd say they need better toner transfer paper ;-) 2013-12-05 13:24 in a way, the white one makes sense, though: http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/TRF%252dWHITE-Toner-Reactive-Foil-%252d-White.html 2013-12-05 13:24 of course, if you really want to go through all that trouble and also add silk screen, you may approach the point where you're better off just getting your board industrially made 2013-12-05 13:25 if you want the silk screen just for some small markings (e.g., pin 1 and such), you can also draw them with copper instead, avoiding any additional overhead 2013-12-05 13:26 for example, in the middle of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png 2013-12-05 13:27 the upper right corner of the large QFN (the MCU) has a little white triangle. that's the silk screen marker for pin 1. right outside of it is another green triangle. that's a copper. in a DIY board, i don't have the silk screen but i do of course have the copper 2013-12-05 13:28 and when we look at the real board: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg 2013-12-05 13:38 there's that little triangle, in the same corner as the white dot on the package, i.e., i put the chip with the correct orientation :) 2013-12-05 14:33 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 14:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:01 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:15 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-05 15:28 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:30 lekernel_ is now known as lekernel 2013-12-05 15:37 What does this progression of projects tell us, if anything: OpenMoko, Ben Nanonote, Neo900? 2013-12-05 15:40 Those three projects had the goal of radical open-ness. For OpenMoko and Ben Nanonote, very VERY few dogs ate the (delicious...) dog food. Can Neo900 change this dynamic? One hopes so... 2013-12-05 15:50 Have you looked at this Improv stuff, rjeffries? 2013-12-05 16:07 i wouldn't include the Ben in that progression. the ben is a different branch (still closely related). it's more like openmoko - gta04 - neo900 2013-12-05 16:09 and yes, eating one's own dog food was an issue with openmoko. not sure about the ben - i used / am using it for things while i used all my openmoko phones maybe for two days in total. 2013-12-05 16:10 I tried to use my openmoko 2013-12-05 16:11 but it most of the time didn't work ;) 2013-12-05 16:27 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 16:32 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 16:46 larsc: i just do not like phones... but i think that has nothing to do with openmoko but the fact that phones are massively intrusive, broken, old way of communicating and the quality of service is that shitty now, that id rather write than speak 2013-12-05 17:37 Agreed: if you buy a phone, you don't want to have to keep another one to actually use as a phone. 2013-12-05 17:38 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 18:04 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 18:12 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 18:38 panda|w530 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 19:05 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:40 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-05 19:40 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:44 wolfspraul: Hope you don't mind that I updated the purchasing details on qi-hardware.com for the NanoNote. 2013-12-05 19:50 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:57 huh, this is cool 2013-12-05 19:57 http://hi-tech.mail.ru/news/misc/YotaPhone_live.html 2013-12-05 19:57 a russian smartphone with lcd and eink displays on different sides 2013-12-05 19:57 allegedly first in the world 2013-12-05 20:02 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 20:04 hah seems like I'm one of those few 2013-12-05 20:05 I'm using gta02 as main phone for five years, with short n900 break 2013-12-05 20:06 looking forward to replace it with neo900 2013-12-05 20:16 dos1: rafa would be the other one, i think :) (using gta02) 2013-12-05 20:16 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:17 whitequark: make it just e-ink and we can talk about bold decisions :) 2013-12-05 20:43 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-05 20:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:46 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:47 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-05 20:48 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 20:58 arielenter1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-05 21:12 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 21:13 qwebirc69454 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 21:13 qwebirc69454 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-05 22:06 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 22:06 nicksydney has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2013-12-05 22:07 /msg NickServ identify Tonypet2012__ 2013-12-05 22:07 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-05 22:07 that was silly... 2013-12-05 22:08 nicksydney: you better change that password now ;) 2013-12-05 22:08 shit !! didn't see that 2013-12-05 22:08 crap 2013-12-05 22:08 i did changes just now 2013-12-05 22:08 F***** 2013-12-05 22:08 hot stupid i am 2013-12-05 22:08 grrrrr.....mind is everywhere :( 2013-12-05 22:09 switch to using Quassel not from web irc 2013-12-05 22:09 lekernel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-05 22:09 phew ! lucky i did it on this channel 2013-12-05 22:10 wpwrak: how are you 2013-12-05 22:20 hope that password isn't used anywhere else :) 2013-12-05 22:20 awake ;-) 2013-12-05 22:20 how did last evening's shopping raid go ? 2013-12-05 22:22 and regarding that PCB-making kit: that one is for a different process. not toner transfer but photochemical. 2013-12-05 22:23 side-by-side comparison toner transfer and photochemical: 2013-12-05 22:23 print on: plastified paper | transparent film (slides) 2013-12-05 22:24 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-05 22:24 raw PCB: must be clean (scrubbed) | must have photo-sensitive emulsion (you either buy it that way or go deeper into chemistry and apply it on a clean PCB on a dark room) 2013-12-05 22:24 transfer: heat | UV light source (lamp or sun) 2013-12-05 22:25 development: n/a | chemical bath 2013-12-05 22:25 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 22:26 if it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board 2013-12-05 22:26 etching is the same 2013-12-05 22:26 resist I've worked on is developed with weak NaOH--not that corrosive 2013-12-05 22:26 and you can just scrape it off with sandpaper 2013-12-05 22:26 ah, drilling / curring: before or after etching | i think only after 2013-12-05 22:27 to reuse the board that is. or acetone, as you would use to remove it after successful development 2013-12-05 22:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 22:27 whitequark: (development) yes, it's nothing evil. just one more step 2013-12-05 22:28 (above) s/curring/cutting/ 2013-12-05 22:28 and let me rephrase the cancellation procedure ... 2013-12-05 22:29 if it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board (if buying pre-coated) or clean and re-coat (if self-coating) 2013-12-05 22:29 wpwrak: too late with the kids screaming and shouting ..didnt' get the chance...have to go tomororow 2013-12-05 22:29 wpwrak: you referring to the PCB making kit from Jaycar website ? 2013-12-05 22:30 nicksydney: my personal experience with both toner transfer and resist (coating it myself): 2013-12-05 22:31 toner transfer is wacky, and extremely hard to get right. traces would routinely be squashed and/or come off with the base paper easily. 2013-12-05 22:32 resist is wacky, too, although much less so than toner. it's much much easier to maintain trace structure and generally get fine details right 2013-12-05 22:32 whitequark: seems that you need to clean your PCB better :) or vary temperature / pressure. if the toner comes off, it didn't stick properly in the first place 2013-12-05 22:33 whitequark: how do you expose ? sun ? uv lamp ? box of lamps ? 2013-12-05 22:34 however, traces (the hardened resist part) still occasionally come off. I did coat PCBs myself, so while I really cleaned them thoroughly and in various ways, seems like it was not enough. 2013-12-05 22:34 but, I liked resist much much more. 2013-12-05 22:34 wpwrak: uv lamp, the ones you use for checking money 2013-12-05 22:34 it cost maybe $15 and worked amazingly 2013-12-05 22:34 hehe, so you have them too ;-) 2013-12-05 22:35 talking about toner. I performed dozens of experiments, and I wasn't able to reliably perform the toner transfer trick. 2013-12-05 22:35 and how do you make sure the film stays on the board ? 2013-12-05 22:35 transparent plexiglass, it's transparent to UV too 2013-12-05 22:35 (unlike real glass) 2013-12-05 22:36 the one I've got for cheap was something you would use (apparently) for hanging A4 sheets on walls. diplomas, licenses, that kind of thing 2013-12-05 22:37 (toner) it took me a while to find the right mixture but now it's pretty painless. laminator helps a lot of stabilizing the process. with the iron there's too much variation. (well, unless you have a female assistant for that. it seems that women just grok ironing while men don't. at least that's what a few experiments with friends showed.) 2013-12-05 22:37 plus it was already folded in two (like this: =====>) so it was enough to put the PCB with film inside and place something moderately heavy to the other side 2013-12-05 22:37 I've used laminator too 2013-12-05 22:37 it did very slight difference compared to (clothing) iron, mainly in that traces were squished less 2013-12-05 22:38 but they still were, and results were crap in general 2013-12-05 22:38 (plexiglass) good. cheaper than UV-transparent special glasses :) 2013-12-05 22:40 also, make sure you're etching it right. I've frequently had my boards overetched where the etchant ate the traces from the sides 2013-12-05 22:40 this was especially prominent with toner transfer, more reason to stay away from it :) 2013-12-05 22:41 for etchant, consider CuSO4+(NH4)2S2O8, it's way less messy than FeCl3 2013-12-05 22:42 what acid do you use ? i had some trouble with FeCl but wit HCl + H2O2 over-etching is rarely an issue 2013-12-05 22:42 FeCl3. as mentioned both HCl and H2O2 are hard to obtain here. 2013-12-05 22:42 (rarely) unless you make an extremely potent mix, like using 35% peroxide undiluted. that'll etch your board in seconds (while the acid boils), but ... 2013-12-05 22:43 lol 2013-12-05 22:43 whitequark: thanks for the tips...will write it down somewhere so I don't forget 2013-12-05 22:43 this is a case of using overly aggressive etchant: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/rush-job.jpg 2013-12-05 22:43 nicksydney: irclog.whitequark.org 2013-12-05 22:44 whitequark: ahh yeah didn't think about that ;) 2013-12-05 22:44 wpwrak: oooh yes, I've seen that such a lot of times 2013-12-05 22:45 wife is an expert in ironing so should not have any problem with using iron :) 2013-12-05 22:45 nicksydney: at the end, I could not get any success at all with double-sided boards and drilling is a PAIN, so I've stopped doing PCBs at home altogether 2013-12-05 22:45 but with a tamer solution there aren't any problems. i even sometimes have to leave the board in a lot longer than what it would take to free the traces since there's some stubborn patch somewhere. and never had anything unfriendly happen there. 2013-12-05 22:46 for etching, it also helps to: 1) place board vertically so debris falls down, 2) make a flow of current to move solution along 2013-12-05 22:46 a little CNC mill helps a lot with the drilling pain ;-) also, only using SMT parts helps :) 2013-12-05 22:46 whitequark: i'm planning to use the PCB for smd components don't have drilling or antyhing like taht 2013-12-05 22:47 you may still need a few holes for vias 2013-12-05 22:47 whitequark: good top about placing the board vertically 2013-12-05 22:47 vias, yes 2013-12-05 22:47 vertical = more elaborate setup 2013-12-05 22:47 containers for vertical etching are surprisingly hard to find, so yes 2013-12-05 22:47 if i put everything on a single side not using vias possible ? 2013-12-05 22:47 vias tend to get small on modern boards with lots of SMT, so you have a tiny drill 2013-12-05 22:48 you need to position it precisely and not break... that's quite a problem with manual or assisted drilling 2013-12-05 22:49 for etching, i use glass jars from the supermarket, with an "airtight" plastic lid. they're small and have a flat bottom. the whole setup sits in a larger glass basin, the sort you may use to make a lasage. that way, if anything spills, it will be contained 2013-12-05 22:50 i move the boards around with wooden skewers, the kind you use for grilling 2013-12-05 22:51 (drilling) yes, they break ... one advantage of manual drilling is that you can drill at an angle, offsetting any error in the front/back registration 2013-12-05 22:52 OR you can see it as a disadvantage, because it's too easy to screw a normal board up 2013-12-05 22:52 nicksydney: IF you can fit the whole layout on one side, you don't need vias. but even relatively simple things can require one or two traces that cross others. but yes, if you can design for single-layer, that's preferable. 2013-12-05 22:52 wpwrak: for testing purposes will make it on single layer and once i have success than would do it double layer 2013-12-05 22:53 as a bottom line: either I'm a screwup in general, or wpwrak has superhuman capabilities in pcb making 2013-12-05 22:53 whitequark: yeah, i like my CNC mill :) nice edges, all the holes where they belong, virtually no drill breakage. and i have found a drill and wire combo that matches perfectly :) 2013-12-05 22:53 nicksydney: double layer is extremely hard to position properly 2013-12-05 22:54 probably less so with photoprocess, as you do not need to move the pcb around (you can just flip the flexiglass+pcb+film sandwich) 2013-12-05 22:54 whitequark: a number of friends who had never made PCBs before used my process and got reasonably good results within 1-2 tries 2013-12-05 22:54 wpwrak: trace width? 2013-12-05 22:54 that was a slightly larger board. lemme check ... 2013-12-05 22:54 at my best, half of my QFN pads were good. 2013-12-05 22:54 I don't consider that "reasonably good", at all. 2013-12-05 22:55 but it's entirely possible that I just still suck at making PCBs, even after dozens of attempts 2013-12-05 22:56 10 mil traces, 10 mil clearance 2013-12-05 22:56 i use now 0.2 mm / 0.2 mm, so about 8 mil / 8 mil 2013-12-05 22:58 whitequark: it's possible. it's even reproducible :) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/boards-so-far.jpg 2013-12-05 22:58 whitequark: what sucked the most was soldering things next to large ground planes, like in atusb. and of course the gazillion vias needed for RF. 2013-12-05 22:59 so these boards are about as far as i'd go. no fine-pitch BGA :) 2013-12-05 23:01 (double-sided) for toner transfer: if you have a good aim, you can do it by just by shining light through the sandwich to align the sheets. it's usually accurate enough. you can also pre-align the sheets and insert the pcb (if you cut the pcb after etching, which is what you'd do without a cnc mill) 2013-12-05 23:01 wpwrak: ok, I officially suck at making PCBs then. :/ 2013-12-05 23:01 pre-aligned sheets tend to be very precise 2013-12-05 23:01 wpwrak: this --> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/boards-so-far.jpg is awesome ! :) 2013-12-05 23:03 if the board really gets very hairy, like these RF board or something big but with fine details, like anelok, you can do one side at a time: toner transfer the top, cover the back with adhesive tape, etch, then do the bottom 2013-12-05 23:03 ok guys all this electronic porn is making me not able to work ... going to do some paid work first and be back later :) 2013-12-05 23:03 takes some patience but yields good precision 2013-12-05 23:12 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-05 23:13 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 23:15 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-05 23:19 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-05 23:39 hellekin has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-05 23:48 qi-bot: hey, wake up 2013-12-05 23:48 I pushed commits. Do your job and announce them D: 2013-12-06 00:01 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 00:07 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-06 00:28 paul_boddie has quit [] 2013-12-06 01:13 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-06 01:19 hellekin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 01:19 wpwrak: hardcooooore http://www.appropedia.org/Open-source_metal_3-D_printer 2013-12-06 01:24 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-06 01:25 i want one ;-) 2013-12-06 01:30 whitequark: since you mentioned "lost" reactors a while ago ... http://englishrussia.com/2009/01/06/abandoned-russian-polar-nuclear-lighthouses/ 2013-12-06 01:32 wpwrak: oh, that's neat 2013-12-06 01:45 note to tourists entering russia: always bring your geiger counter. if you're in an abandoned area, looking for a toilet, you never know what you may find 2013-12-06 02:33 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 03:16 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 03:29 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 04:54 are you saying i can't just dump my nuclear fridge? 2013-12-06 04:55 cool, that might be a stereotype about Russia - everything is radioactive as shit 2013-12-06 04:56 nuclear polar bears, drinking vodka and playing balalaikas :) 2013-12-06 05:53 michael_lee has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-06 05:55 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 06:31 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 07:11 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-06 07:11 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 07:15 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-06 07:17 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 07:36 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 07:36 dos1 has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-06 07:41 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-06 07:53 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-06 07:54 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 08:27 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 08:28 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 08:31 uwe__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 08:31 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-06 08:34 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 08:34 newcup has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 08:34 nicksydney has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-12-06 08:34 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 08:34 uwe_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 08:34 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 08:37 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 09:51 kristianpaul has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-06 09:51 viric has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2013-12-06 09:51 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 09:51 kristianpaul has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-06 09:51 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 10:03 lekernel_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 10:03 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-06 10:57 panda|x201 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-06 11:08 uwe__ is now known as uwe_ 2013-12-06 11:11 lekernel_ is now known as lekernel 2013-12-06 11:33 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 11:35 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-06 11:38 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 12:30 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 13:24 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-06 13:48 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 14:53 wpwrak are you willing to say what make/model of mobile phone you use? (yes, there's a reason i'm asking. ;) 2013-12-06 14:53 s/what/which/ 2013-12-06 14:53 rjeffries meant: "wpwrak are you willing to say which make/model of mobile phone you use? (yes, there's a reason i'm asking. ;)" 2013-12-06 15:04 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 16:23 rjeffries: hah, you'll be surprised :) 2013-12-06 16:24 rjeffries: the one i used for the last years is was a samsung x-830. the one i'm using now is some nokia cheap shit. don't even know the model number. basically the dumbest of the dumbphones. 2013-12-06 16:25 i don't like it, though. it's a bit too primitive even for my ascetic taste. 2013-12-06 16:26 that's cool. where I'm going is my conviction that, very smart guy that you are, your decision to use miniUSB rather than microUSB is not in tune with a larger reality. My experience is the opposite of what you said re how many microUSB things are in my life 2013-12-06 16:27 i looked into getting a sony xperia mini pro. that's a very small droid with keyboard. alas, based on a qualcom soc, having "only" 512 MB of RAM, and such, it's unclear whether cyanogenmod will continue to be available for it for long. (it's an older model, so it's already no longer supported with "official" updates) 2013-12-06 16:27 we have a very nice Logitech Bluetooth keyboard for my wife's desktop PC (backlit keys, GREAT "feel") an dit uses microUSB. (Battery life is superb, by teh way) 2013-12-06 16:28 one thing I don't like about microUSB is that it has no through-hole receptacle variants 2013-12-06 16:28 well, the nokia doesn't even have USB ;) 2013-12-06 16:28 either in the standard or in practice 2013-12-06 16:28 that ought to make it way easier to pull off PCB. 2013-12-06 16:28 the samsung did, but over a proprietary connector 2013-12-06 16:28 I have to look long and hard in my office or shiop or home to locate any miniUSB. An older navigation thingie "Tom"Tom" uses that standard. some dev cards do as well. 2013-12-06 16:29 otherwise I agree with rjeffries 2013-12-06 16:30 dumb idea, prolly: to increase the resistance to the microUSB recepticale being pulled off PCB by mechanical force... would a blod of cryaocate (sp) be so terrible? LOL 2013-12-06 16:31 this has to be a solved problem. seriously 2013-12-06 16:31 s/blod/blob/ 2013-12-06 16:31 glue may be an option, yes. nothing that gives off cyanide gas when in the smt oven, though ... 2013-12-06 16:32 but yes, the industry has its glues that are oven-friendly 2013-12-06 16:32 wpwrak: won't it apply a force in the wrong direction (pull instead of push)? 2013-12-06 16:33 funny (sorta kinda story0; i was at UPS store to ship a package, they have a few odds and ends for sale. They were selling cute (nice design) 1,000 mAmp USB power supplies for a few bucks. It struck me as an odd impuse item, alongside little LED flashlights and cheap earbuds 2013-12-06 16:33 and be not significantly stronger than adhesion between metal plating and textolite 2013-12-06 16:33 which are glued one to another too 2013-12-06 16:35 (pull instead of push) what I mean is that glue applies a force to the PCB coating attempting to separate it from the base. through-hole mounting applies a force to a solder blob on the other side of PCB, attempting to squeeze it through hole (apart from other forces) 2013-12-06 16:35 assuming indestructible receptacle 2013-12-06 16:35 to be fair (how boring...) the power adapter uses USB-A, as they all do. but my point is that virtually all consumer devices (except Apple, damn them) use a USB-A to microUSB cable. 2013-12-06 16:38 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-06 16:39 whitequark: you may be able to reach enough force to crack the pcb either way :) and yes, through-hole has a big advantage when pulling. but again, i'm not sure how far this would put you from the point where you only make somethign else crack 2013-12-06 16:40 wpwrak: microUSB receptacles are "fairly easy" to lift 2013-12-06 16:40 meaning it's way more than reasonable force but way less than you need to destroy receptacle/PCB/casing 2013-12-06 16:41 rjeffries: as i said, i haven't seen much usb micro yet. some USB 3.0 for hard disks, and smartphones. the rest still comes in mini. but maybe it's changing and you're just a bit ahead in the curve. 2013-12-06 16:42 whitequark: if they're easy to lift, glue should help :) 2013-12-06 16:42 wpwrak: EU requires microUSB on smartphones for few years 2013-12-06 16:43 yes, i know that they're on smartphones. what i said is that i didn't see much micro on other things :) 2013-12-06 16:43 (easy) maybe that was the wrong word. I just meant that PCB-trace link is the weakest in the system, not that it is particularly weak. 2013-12-06 16:44 maybe they;re just badly soldered. you get that from time to time, too. it's always suspicious when you can lift some component cleanly off its solder pads 2013-12-06 16:45 of course, it's nasty if the pads come with it ... 2013-12-06 16:46 no, I mean with the pads 2013-12-06 16:46 the data/power pads have tiny area. the shield pads have higher area and are much harder to lift, but if you're harsh with the device, it still happens 2013-12-06 16:51 yes yes, i mean these pads, too. the data pads are truly too small to offer much resistance :) 2013-12-06 17:08 hm, did DocScrutinizer ragequit? 2013-12-06 17:09 maybe he's busy working on neo900 ? :) 2013-12-06 17:28 wpwrak I think teh earbuds with very flexible cables DocScrutinizer05 was talinking about are the Apple ones. I have those (found them on a hike, God's truth) and teh cables are indeed lovely. 2013-12-06 17:31 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 17:47 do they feel as robust as, say, a micro-usb cable ? 2013-12-06 17:49 no 2013-12-06 17:53 rjeffries has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-06 17:55 earbud cables can be deceptive. I've seen more than one flimsy looking cable which could withstand surprising weights 2013-12-06 17:57 a thin kapron strand has incredibly high resistance to linear strain, yet is flexible so as to be unnoticeable 2013-12-06 17:58 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-06 17:58 okay, here's then plan then. rjeffries keeps running around cupertino and picks up strange-looking cables. joerg analyzes them and builds his revolutionary connector. then whitequark gets some russian weight lifter for the promo video, where he will (unsuccessfully) try to rip the contraption apart 2013-12-06 17:59 lol 2013-12-06 18:09 nice .. in group E for next year's soccer world championship, there will be two pairs of teams that can exchange insults in their respective native language :) group D has one. the rest will have to improvise. 2013-12-06 18:10 kristianpaul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-06 18:12 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 18:15 wpwrak: and you collect the money? 2013-12-06 18:21 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-06 18:22 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 18:22 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 18:24 rjeffries_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 18:34 larsc: excellent idea ! :) 2013-12-06 18:49 rjeffries_ is now known as rjeffries 2013-12-06 19:09 for USD $19 (plus shipping) Teensy 3.0 with ARM Cortex M4 is a lot of computer for the money. 2013-12-06 19:09 URL: https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy3.html 2013-12-06 19:14 cute. but if they're already going for a multilayer board, why not use an ST32F4xx ? that's also M4, but up to 168 MHz. up to 1 MB flash. and flashing is via DFU, so you don't need anything unusual on the host. 2013-12-06 19:14 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 19:15 can't beat the price, though 2013-12-06 19:16 well, belay that: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/STM32F4DISCOVERY/497-11455-ND/2711743 2013-12-06 19:17 not sure if you can flash that one with DFU, though. it may just bring out the wrong port (the chip has two USB OTG) 2013-12-06 19:18 The Teensy still has the annoying characteristic of having more MHz than kilobytes of RAM. 2013-12-06 19:18 That STM stuff is quite nice, though. 2013-12-06 19:19 Hmm, is "SELECT * FROM comments ORDER BY RAND() LIMIT 0, 100" some kind of new Internet meme? 2013-12-06 19:19 this one can be programmed via DFU. a bit more pricy, though: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/STM32-E407/1188-1093-ND/3726951 2013-12-06 19:26 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 19:33 maybe common around oracle hq ;-) 2013-12-06 20:56 I am ignorant and not super techie. what is brief description of DFU (I think device firmwar eupf=date) and does it use USB or... JTAG or what?? 2013-12-06 20:56 usb 2013-12-06 20:57 I get page not found error on your two Digikey urls odd 2013-12-06 20:57 and it is super great since you do not need any special programmer or adapter or whatever to flash the device 2013-12-06 21:00 nods 2013-12-06 21:00 rjeffries: it's basically to USB what TFTP is to TCP/IP. a very very simple transfer protocoll. 2013-12-06 21:01 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-06 21:05 freespace has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 21:35 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-06 21:55 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-06 22:11 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-06 22:13 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: hack: maintain decimal point across flipping (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/0fc785d 2013-12-06 22:15 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-06 23:19 paul_boddie: ah, i think i found it. it may be part of a blog spam generator. only that it is supposed to be executed, not the code itself pasted. "comments" may be the list of comments they programmed into their spam generator. 2013-12-06 23:20 paul_boddie: just saw one of these on https://www.schneier.com/blog (already deleted, of course) 2013-12-07 00:58 uwe_mobile has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 01:23 wpwrak: Yes, that's where I saw it. Wonder which exploit they're trying for! 2013-12-07 01:23 paul_boddie has quit [] 2013-12-07 01:34 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 01:54 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-07 02:21 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 02:23 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-07 02:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 03:35 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-07 03:37 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 04:37 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-07 04:39 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 05:39 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 07:51 valhalla_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 07:53 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-07 09:00 2none 2013-12-07 09:01 they are trying to post a random comment 2013-12-07 09:12 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-07 09:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 09:53 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 10:15 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-07 10:28 hello all 2013-12-07 10:28 wpwrak: what's happening over there :) 2013-12-07 10:36 the evil daystar just woke me 2013-12-07 10:37 larsc: at least they're bold. trying that right in the midst of the lion's den. 2013-12-07 10:41 hahahah 2013-12-07 10:44 nicksydney: how's the lab setup going ? getting ready to roll ? :) 2013-12-07 10:44 yeah....got the printer and the paper....jaycar closed when i reach there so didn't get the PCB kit 2013-12-07 10:45 i'm going to try to print using the photo paper i bought 2013-12-07 10:45 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 10:45 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 10:46 that pcb kit you mentioned wouldn't be much use anyway since it's for photochemical 2013-12-07 10:47 if you have printer and paper, all you need are some copper-clad pcbs, an acid, and some containers that don't melt from the acid and that have a flat bottom 2013-12-07 10:48 what kind of acid ? 2013-12-07 10:48 i will get the PCB from that same store that sell the PCB kit 2013-12-07 10:48 they sell copper pcb 2013-12-07 10:48 this is what i got today http://ctrlv.in/267285 2013-12-07 10:50 for the container, i'd say tupperware but if possible, i'd get something made of glass instead of plastic. more resistant :) 2013-12-07 10:50 very good :) 2013-12-07 10:50 acid: if you can get HCl (hardware store, pool supplies, etc.) and Peroxide (pharmacy), then you're good 2013-12-07 10:50 made of glass...hmmm.....maybe some kind of microwaveable dish that normally used for lasagna :) 2013-12-07 10:51 HCl -- what's common name if i go to hardware store ? 2013-12-07 10:51 there are many other acids people use but that is about the easiest one 2013-12-07 10:52 http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=Hydrochloric%20acid 2013-12-07 10:52 HCl = muriatic acid 2013-12-07 10:52 is that the one ? 2013-12-07 10:52 yes 2013-12-07 10:52 whitequark: see, if you need some, you can just fly over to australia :-) 2013-12-07 10:53 ok will get this one .. http://www.bunnings.com.au/bondall-1l-hydrochloric-acid_p0960232 2013-12-07 10:53 once i get it how should i use it ? 2013-12-07 10:53 this is interesting "Bondall Hydrochloric Acid is the solution for acid etching concrete, brick and pavers to adequately prepare the surface prior to sealing or painting. It is also great for cleaning and polishing brick or metal and adjusting the pH level in pools." .... now they should add also for etching PCB :) 2013-12-07 10:54 yeah, don't get more than 1 l. even half a liter would last for a very long time. do you have a place outdoors where you can store it ? garden, shed, balcony, ... ? 2013-12-07 10:54 a place where kids and pets won't get to it 2013-12-07 10:54 yeah...i can keep it outside in the garden 2013-12-07 10:55 perfect. the bottle will give off a little bit of chloride gas. enough to corrode metals if it's locked up together with them. that's why it's best to keep it outside, so the gas gets just vented off 2013-12-07 10:57 next, you'll need H2O2, peroxide. you should get a small bottle of ~5% at the pharmacy. if you can in addition find something with a higher concentration (up to 30%), even better 2013-12-07 11:00 the weak one is enough to make a suitable solution. but it gets better: you can reuse the acid almost indefinitely, but you have to add small amounts of HCl and peroxide from time to time. especially the peroxide escapes relatively quickly. 2013-12-07 11:01 http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439 2013-12-07 11:01 for "topping off" the etchant, peroxide with a higher concentration works best, since it adds less water and thus the brew doesn't get diluted so much 2013-12-07 11:02 yeah, that's good 2013-12-07 11:02 maybe get some of this, too: http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=69464&pname=Hilift+Peroxide+40+VOL+12%25+200ml 2013-12-07 11:03 mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl 2013-12-07 11:04 you need just enough of both that both side the of the PCB will be covered. so a layer of about 2-3 mm at the bottom of the "tupperware" 2013-12-07 11:06 regarding the "tupperware", make it the side of your typical PCB, which will generally be small. something like 6 x 6 cm may be enough. no need to go bigger than 10 x 10 cm. the bottom should be perfectly flat. and it should have a lit for airtight sealing (since you'll want to keep that acid for reuse) 2013-12-07 11:07 note that the HCl+H2O2 combo doesn't need heating. some other acids do, especially FeCl. so if you find online articles explaining how to balance all the mess on your oven, just ignore them :) 2013-12-07 11:08 ah, and while you're at it, get discardable gloves. latex or similar. they usually come in boxes of 100 units or so. 2013-12-07 11:09 regarding the mixing: mix the solution before putting the PCB. then stir it, e.g., with a wooden stick (skewer or such) 2013-12-07 11:10 if you need to add anything with the PCB already in the bath, then do that as far as possible from the PCB and stir immediately. else, you may get spots where the etchant is a lot more potent than elsewhere, which can produce highly uneven etching 2013-12-07 11:11 lots of details but it's not really all that complicated :) 2013-12-07 11:11 ok let me write a summary for myself 2013-12-07 11:12 ah, when done etching, just grab the PCB with your gloves fingers, wipe the etchant off the PCB with the stick, then wash off the remaining acid with tap water 2013-12-07 11:13 if i want to throw the HCL+H2O2 combo can i just throw it in the garden ? 2013-12-07 11:14 the quantity of acid that's left is very low, so it won't attack anything. first rinse, then take off the gloves and rob the board with your fingers to get rid of the last bits. you want to make sure the board is completely acid-free when done. (else, it would continue etching away, eventually destroying your board) 2013-12-07 11:14 only if you hate your garden and what lives in it ;) 2013-12-07 11:15 a better approach is to let the open container sit in the sun for a while, so that all the water can evaporate. then you're left with blue-green crystals. you can scrape them out, wrap them watertight, and discard them as solid garbage. 2013-12-07 11:15 hahaaha...ok got it 2013-12-07 11:15 ok understand 2013-12-07 11:16 explain to me bit more about " 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl" 2013-12-07 11:16 let's take the measurement of the cap of the boottle 2013-12-07 11:16 bottle 2013-12-07 11:16 but as i said, that etchant can be reused. so disposal is usually a very rare event. 2013-12-07 11:17 yes, any small container will do. measure the quantity you want, then drop it into the "tupperware". then add the other 2013-12-07 11:18 many sources recommend doing this with the perixode first, then the acid. to avoid dropping things into a concentrated acid. not sure if it matters. 2013-12-07 11:19 in any case, don't spill anything (and if you do, wash it off with a lot of water, then apply some soapy detergent - usually alkaline - over the affected area to neutralize the acid) 2013-12-07 11:19 lemme snap a picture of my setup ... 2013-12-07 11:19 cool 2013-12-07 11:19 picture worth thousands word :) 2013-12-07 11:21 hmm, in half an hour. camera commands me to change thebattery pack :-( 2013-12-07 11:23 ok no worries......do I need to add water into the container when I combine HCL and H2O2 together ? 2013-12-07 11:25 they already come with the water. HCL is only 35% and the peroxide even much lower. all the rest is good old water. 2013-12-07 11:26 you'd only need to worry about adding water if you used a very strong concentration of peroxide. in theory, peroxide could go up to 100% (or almost). but at some point it'll just spontaneously explode :) 2013-12-07 11:27 peroxide is an interesting chemical. starts as desinfectant. then you can use it to bleach hair. then you can use it to burn off layers of skin. then you can use it as rocket fuel. and then you get an unstable explosive :) 2013-12-07 11:27 crazy 2013-12-07 11:27 ok must be very careful in handling it 2013-12-07 11:28 at 3-5% you're in the desinfectant range. at 10% you'd be in the bleaching range. 30% and it's the burn off of skins (at that point, gloves are no longer just a precaution :) 2013-12-07 11:28 and unless you have good friends at the next missile base, you may not find it easy to go beyond 30% :) 2013-12-07 11:29 this one http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=69464&pname=Hilift+Peroxide+40+VOL+12%25+200ml is only 12% so it should be ok to handle 2013-12-07 11:29 already 30% may be difficult. also because it's used to make drugs (all, what isn't ?) 2013-12-07 11:30 i just opened the paper i bought...i think i make a mistake....it's a photo paper 2013-12-07 11:30 it's white..not transparent 2013-12-07 11:34 thought it is called photo paper as back in mind thought it will be glossy and transparent..but looks like it's not 2013-12-07 11:34 (12%) yes, it's hair bleach. so wear gloves and don't splash it around. but it won't kill you. 2013-12-07 11:35 the paper is good for toner transfer 2013-12-07 11:35 remember the two different processes ? toner transfer and photochemical ? toner transfer is laser printer, white paper, ironing 2013-12-07 11:37 ok i thought that normally you use the transparent paper http://www.ebay.com/bhp/overhead-transparencies 2013-12-07 11:37 that would be for photochemical. photocemical is (any printer) transparencies, photo-sensitive coating, UV light 2013-12-07 11:38 but we already discussed this at length yesterday or so, the irc logs are your friends :) 2013-12-07 11:39 ok i take a look at the log .... very bad with words...i learn faster with pictures :) 2013-12-07 11:41 ok will do printer testing with the new paper and see if this is going to work 2013-12-07 11:43 ah, here's a nice collection of peroxide for hairdressers: http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-484877319-oxigenada-alfa-x-1-litro-_JM 2013-12-07 11:43 also shows the "volume" notation vs. percent. so 10 Vol is 3%, etc. 2013-12-07 11:45 that scale sensibly cuts off at 100 Vol = 30% :) (30% comes in a pitch-black bottle, with warning sings) 2013-12-07 11:45 (for peroxide doesn't like sunlight) 2013-12-07 11:47 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-07 11:56 wohooo...successfully printed on the paper...uploading the pics hang on 2013-12-07 11:59 when you print it ...what is the scale ? 2013-12-07 12:00 i think you can guess that ;-) 2013-12-07 12:01 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 12:01 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 12:02 this is what i have --> http://snag.gy/jvEf2.jpg 2013-12-07 12:04 this is the output on the photo paper --> http://ctrlv.in/267307 2013-12-07 12:05 almost perfect 2013-12-07 12:05 you also need to click "mirror" 2013-12-07 12:06 that is, for the front layer. the back layer will be mirrored by default 2013-12-07 12:06 you can tell whether it's mirrored by looking at text. if you can read if normally, it's wrong. (that why i always put some text on both sides) 2013-12-07 12:07 ok...the measurement of the board is 3cm wide is that right ? 2013-12-07 12:07 do i need to change anything on the 'Approx. Scale' ? 2013-12-07 12:08 just keep accurate scale. no idea what "approx scale" is supposed to mean. sounds scary. 2013-12-07 12:12 looks like something is offf...it's not printing the round wheel 2013-12-07 12:13 ah the arc 2013-12-07 12:14 ah yes, that's because you used "print" 2013-12-07 12:14 "print" doesn't work. you have to use "plot" ,make a postscript, then print that postscript 2013-12-07 12:16 ok need to find out way to print the postscript 2013-12-07 12:22 wpwrak: how do you normally do ? 2013-12-07 12:22 "lpr filename" :) 2013-12-07 12:23 using plot got few files with extension .gbl, .gbo, .gbr,etc 2013-12-07 12:23 but no .ps file 2013-12-07 12:24 that's because you didn't tell it to generate postscript 2013-12-07 12:24 default is Gerber, hence the *.g* 2013-12-07 12:28 managed to generate .pdf f 2013-12-07 12:29 is it correct that the size of anelok is like 3cm ? 2013-12-07 12:29 the pcb is 25 x 80 mm 2013-12-07 12:30 bloody hell.....even my pinky size is double the size of the freescale processor 2013-12-07 12:31 how in the hell i'm going to solder this :) 2013-12-07 12:31 hahahhahaha 2013-12-07 12:31 ;-) 2013-12-07 12:31 with a steady hand and a lot of flux :) 2013-12-07 12:33 basically you dip the pcb into the flux :) 2013-12-07 12:35 well, that may actually work :) 2013-12-07 12:36 the processor is it LQFP or QFN ? 2013-12-07 12:37 48-QFN, 0.5 mm pitch 2013-12-07 12:42 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 12:42 going to have a hard time soldering those if i manage to get a hand on that 2013-12-07 12:44 the actual soldering isn't the diffcult part. what's tricky is the positioning. 2013-12-07 12:45 it's kinda difficult to align the pads with the traces. and since it's a large package, it's also possible to get confused and have it off by one position. 2013-12-07 12:47 so it's not the errors in the 0.1 mm range (general imprecision) that should worry you but the ones in the 0.25-0.5 mm range (caused by proper alignment, but with the wrong trace or with the space between traces) 2013-12-07 12:50 maybe should try to rework the pcb and make it one sided only to make it easier for me to try it out 2013-12-07 12:54 i'll try to do that for my exercise 2013-12-07 12:54 when you say you do 'lpr filename' what is the file that you print...is that the .ps file ? 2013-12-07 12:54 hmm, i'd recommend starting with a new design. just oled, mcu, and touch sensor 2013-12-07 12:55 yes, the .ps 2013-12-07 12:55 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 12:55 oh, assuming you have a postscript interpreter in the path 2013-12-07 12:55 not sure what happens with non-ps printers. i'd expect cups to take care of it. 2013-12-07 12:56 (i only have ps printers. never worry about printer drivers :) 2013-12-07 12:56 it generate few .ps files 2013-12-07 12:56 which means i need to combine those files together ? 2013-12-07 12:57 just print anelok-F_Cu.ps and anelok-B_Cu.ps 2013-12-07 12:58 the others are for other layers. layers you don't really need. 2013-12-07 13:06 wpwrak: i have the board in this picture http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg .. KL25Z 2013-12-07 13:06 perfect 2013-12-07 13:07 wpwrak: but it doesn't work in Linux .. need to flash a new bootloader as the current bootloader does not work with Linux..did you have to do the same with yours ? 2013-12-07 13:07 then all you need is oled, the few caps and resistors for the oled, and the touch sensor 2013-12-07 13:07 ah yes, i did that. wasn't painful. 2013-12-07 13:08 see anelok/pgm/README 2013-12-07 13:08 section "Updating/installing the P&E firmware" 2013-12-07 13:14 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 13:15 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 13:15 yes i'm reading that 2013-12-07 13:15 the painful part is finding Windows box 2013-12-07 13:18 wpwrak: if you look at this picture ... the board with anelok printout (http://ctrlv.in/267322) it shows that anelok is very small but if you look at your picture ( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg ) the size is almost the same...which makes me wonder whether the file i'm printing is correct in terms of size or i'm missing something 2013-12-07 13:37 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 13:59 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 14:15 xiangfu do you know what happened to remaining stock of Ben Nanonote? Thank you. 2013-12-07 14:29 wpwrak: ok i'm bit lost here ..according to this product brief (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1691542.pdf) the MCU size is 7mm x 7mm while I measure thr printout the size for the MCU is aaround 3mm ... so there must be something wrong in the print out 2013-12-07 14:38 nickydney if you munge wpwrak 's practical, step-by-step advice re: making PCBs into a guide, you (and he) could publish and help many people, including me. 2013-12-07 14:40 rjeffries: wpwrak has published a tutorial about making PCB 2013-12-07 14:43 yet you need to ask many questions, so it woudl seem the tutorial needs work. LOL just sayin' 2013-12-07 14:46 :)...nah sometimes there are things that does not work according to documentation. .. so need to confirm 2013-12-07 14:49 yep. your printout looks wrong size 2013-12-07 14:49 maybe a metric/"§$%& problem.. maybe just factor 2 2013-12-07 15:07 tried printing using File --> Print and selected 'Scale 3' from 'Approx. Scale' and I can get measurement for the MCU at 7mm x 7mm 2013-12-07 15:10 measure the longest side of the pcb 2013-12-07 15:10 biggest structure. the mcu is too small for a proper scale check 2013-12-07 15:21 thanks roh...will try again tomorrow.... 2013-12-07 15:21 heading off to la-la-land :) 2013-12-07 15:42 porchaso0 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-07 15:42 larsc has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-07 15:42 rozzin has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-07 15:42 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-07 16:08 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 16:08 rozzin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 16:08 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 16:08 larsc has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 16:24 nicksydney: it does look a little small. but ... where did you get the MCU size ? the square pad isn't 7x7 mm. it's only about 5x5 mm 2013-12-07 16:25 nicksydney: in any case, in "plot", remove the check mark from "Exclude PCB edge layer from other layers". that way, you get the pcb border (you'll want this for positioning later on, too) 2013-12-07 16:25 then you can measure the board dimensions. should be 25 x 80 mm 2013-12-07 16:27 (i kinda wonder whether you really used "Plot" ... i don't even see PDF there, so it seems a bit surprising that you ended up with PDF insead of PS. well, maybe it's a difference between our versions. but still, strange) 2013-12-07 17:03 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-07 17:59 nicksydney: here's finally my etching setup: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/acid-box.jpg 2013-12-07 18:01 all is is a plastic box. so i can move it out of harm's way. the small container (white lid) is what i use for most things. it's 10 x 10 cm. it sits in a larger glass container that catches any spills. not that spills would be very common - and when they happen, i just let them dry. 2013-12-07 18:07 yeah distortions are the worst :/ 2013-12-07 18:07 I've once had my printer (driver?) add a nonlinear distortion somehow 2013-12-07 18:08 that was painful to debug 2013-12-07 18:24 sounds suckish, yes 2013-12-07 19:15 kewl. case snaps closed and wheel actually can be spun. first time ever :) 2013-12-07 19:15 now i just wish the OLED wasn't dead ... 2013-12-07 22:02 valhalla_ is now known as valhalla 2013-12-07 22:06 wpwrak: this is where I get the MCU size dimension ... http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1691542.pdf .. page 8 2013-12-07 22:08 wpwrak: this is what I'm seeing when I'm using File --> Plot .. http://ctrlv.in/267508 (top left saying PDF) 2013-12-07 22:13 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-07 22:13 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-07 22:14 wpwrak: this is my another attemp using 'Exlude PCB...' ... you see the measurement is seems very off .. http://ctrlv.in/267510 2013-12-07 22:14 wpwrak: could it be that the driver is the issue ? 2013-12-07 22:14 ok be back later going out first 2013-12-07 22:26 (pdf) ah, interesting. so they added PDF recently. that's nice. 2013-12-07 22:28 (size) 7x7 mm is correct. but that's the size of the chip, not the size of the center pad. so unless you calculate the size of the chip from what you see in the printed layout, you'll get something incorrect. 2013-12-07 22:28 ah yes, that's rather small :) 2013-12-07 22:29 that's about 37.5 mm 2013-12-07 22:29 off by a factor 2.13 2013-12-07 22:30 can you generate PS directly ? maybe something goes wrong when going PDF -> PS 2013-12-07 22:30 could of course also be that the printer driver does weird things 2013-12-07 22:30 at least your printer is good enough to handle even such tiny sizes. so you can keep up if i use smaller chips ;-) 2013-12-07 22:51 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-07 22:53 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 00:01 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 00:03 and now, let's unveil the truth ... is the oled dead or is it something else ... 2013-12-08 00:04 of course, it would be great if the oled was still good as that would prove that it's nearly indestructible :) (i.e., i didn't treat it gently after it started failing) 2013-12-08 00:53 well, it's not indestructible. the new one works, though (#4, six left in stock). and the pcb is holding up very nicely. 3rd display on that board, and the pads are still healthy. 2013-12-08 01:27 * wpwrak loves dirty makefile tricks: https://gitorious.org/anelok/anelok/commit/2f63622570c8e10919c8c5b5219a1db1f1f8a6c7 2013-12-08 02:14 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-08 02:31 ew 2013-12-08 02:34 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 02:36 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-08 02:38 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 02:58 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-08 05:35 wpwrak: bought a copper board and also found an old laptop lying around that i'm going to install windows xp on and install the printer driver to test it from there 2013-12-08 06:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-08 06:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 06:50 if all else fails, you could also try scaling the PDF by a factor of 2.13. but maybe it's a portrait/landscape problem. 2013-12-08 09:58 wpwrak: you mean scaling PDF via File --> Print or using File --> Plot ? 2013-12-08 10:42 porchaso0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-08 10:43 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 10:58 mth has quit [] 2013-12-08 11:21 wpwrak: I did Plot again and this time stored it in .PS file and also changed the scaling from 'Auto' to '2:1' and then using Document Viewer(libspectre ) open 2013-12-08 11:21 the file and print it out and this is what I get..what you think ? http://ctrlv.in/267701 and http://ctrlv.in/267702 2013-12-08 11:21 I did Plot again and this time stored it in .PS file and also changed the scaling from 'Auto' to '2:1' and then using Document Viewer(libspectre ) open the file and print it out and this is what I get..what you think ? http://ctrlv.in/267701 and http://ctrlv.in/267702 2013-12-08 11:25 wpwrak: I printed anelok to the HP photo paper and tried using iron to trasnfer it to the board but it was total failure, tried 3 times same problem. Seems like the paper was too thick..so I used a paper from a junk mail (from Vodafone) and print the PCB into that and was able to transfer it to the board but as you can see from the pictures there are residue of paper (whitish in colour) that still stick to the board.. 2013-12-08 11:25 ..did I do anything wrong or the paper I'm using is not the right one ? http://ctrlv.in/267704 and http://ctrlv.in/267705 2013-12-08 12:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 12:16 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-08 12:19 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 12:25 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 12:32 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-08 12:42 rjeffries has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 2013-12-08 12:44 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 12:56 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 13:21 nicksydney: i meant scaling in Plot. Forget Print. it doesn't work. never did, probably never will. 2013-12-08 13:23 (scaled plot) getting closer. what happens if you turn off "Plot sheet reference on all layers" ? 2013-12-08 13:26 (paper) seems that the junk mail paper disintegrated. so you got toner sticking to the PCB and paper being torn off the paper sheet 2013-12-08 13:26 what did the results with the HP paper look like ? 2013-12-08 13:31 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 13:43 regarding the scrubbing of the pcb: the scratches look a little coarse. are you using a fine steel wool ? something like this: http://www.ofi-z.com/2264-virulana-de-acero 2013-12-08 13:43 and not like this: http://www.ofi-z.com/2262-esponja-plateada 2013-12-08 14:46 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 15:49 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 15:49 dos1 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2013-12-08 15:49 dos11 is now known as dos1 2013-12-08 17:40 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-08 17:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 17:46 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-08 18:49 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 18:54 newcup has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-08 18:54 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-08 18:54 sanderr has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-08 18:59 sanderr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 19:03 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 19:15 sanderr has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-08 19:22 sanderr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 21:34 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-08 21:39 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-08 22:12 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-08 22:13 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 22:22 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 22:25 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 22:25 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-08 22:32 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-08 22:44 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 22:55 wpwrak: reprinted again this time turning off all "Plot sheet references" in Plot dialog .... http://ctrlv.in/267950 and http://ctrlv.in/267951 2013-12-08 22:55 wpwrak: plot using .PS and using Okular to view and print it 2013-12-08 22:55 wpwrak: what you think ? 2013-12-08 22:57 let's see ... 2013-12-08 22:58 still a little bit off 2013-12-08 22:59 lemme print and measure one here 2013-12-08 23:00 ok 2013-12-08 23:01 wpwrak: this is my setting http://ctrlv.in/267960 2013-12-08 23:01 hmm. easier said that done ... where the heck did i put that meter ? 2013-12-08 23:05 precisely 80 mm here 2013-12-08 23:06 your is about 2% too short. but that's probably good enough for such small components. 2013-12-08 23:07 s/your/yours/ 2013-12-08 23:07 wpwrak meant: "yours is about 2% too short. but that's probably good enough for such small components." 2013-12-08 23:08 maybe your ruler is a little off. now that would be fun ;-) 2013-12-08 23:09 wpwrak: let me see if i can find other ruler 2013-12-08 23:09 whitequark has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-08 23:09 wpwrak: what is your measurement for the length ? 2013-12-08 23:10 80 mm 2013-12-08 23:10 whitequark has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 23:10 nominal length it exactly 80.000... mm 2013-12-08 23:13 yeah mine came to 7.8mm 2013-12-08 23:13 78mm 2013-12-08 23:13 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-08 23:14 yeah even using other ruler it still says 78mm 2013-12-08 23:16 2mm does that make different in terms of component positioning ? 2013-12-08 23:17 wpwrak: without scaling it ..printing it on 1:1 ..the original measurement is 39mm .. which make sense it become 78mm .. which you measured to be 2.1 something 2013-12-08 23:17 but how can i set 2.1 something inside the plot ? 2013-12-08 23:18 you'd begin to notice small problems with things larger than ~2 cm. so for this small stuff it's okay. the oled may be a little bit hairy but probably still good. 2013-12-08 23:18 it's very weird that 1:1 would be 39 mm 2013-12-08 23:19 when you draw something with, say, xfig, does it come out all wrong, too ? 2013-12-08 23:20 let me see 2013-12-08 23:20 sorry xfig ? 2013-12-08 23:20 in plot there is no xfig 2013-12-08 23:20 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-08 23:21 xfig is a drawing program 2013-12-08 23:22 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-08 23:28 ok let me try :) 2013-12-08 23:29 dandon_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-08 23:32 xfig looks very ancient 2013-12-08 23:32 geezz..need to learn new trick now :) 2013-12-08 23:32 hahah 2013-12-08 23:34 (xfig) yeah. old and reliable :) 2013-12-08 23:54 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-09 00:14 phase I: a hot day with menacing clouds. phase II: the storm (just a few gusts for now). phase III: the rain (just one or two drops so far_. phase IV is where it gets interesting ... 2013-12-09 00:17 wpwrak: tried printing a box inside xfig original measurement from the screen is 12cm something...it printed out 6cm something 2013-12-09 00:17 so it's printing 1/2 of what is in the screen..:( 2013-12-09 00:17 time to take a good hard look at the printer driver 2013-12-09 00:18 maybe it thinks it's being told to print A4 on A5 paper or something 2013-12-09 00:19 let me see printer setting 2013-12-09 00:23 try evince for printing pdf/ps 2013-12-09 00:24 it produced the best results for me 2013-12-09 00:27 lindi- has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-12-09 00:27 lindi- has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 00:32 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 00:34 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-09 00:35 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-09 02:01 wohoooo..... 2013-12-09 02:01 able to find the setting..it print 10cm now :) 2013-12-09 02:01 now back to printing anelok 2013-12-09 02:03 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-09 02:07 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 02:16 wpwrak: i like what i see...http://ctrlv.in/268054 and http://ctrlv.in/268056 2013-12-09 02:16 wpwrak: what you think ? 2013-12-09 02:20 that looks quite good :) 2013-12-09 02:21 next: make it happen with copper :) 2013-12-09 02:26 first need to find the proper paper..the current one that i have is not working as i want it to be :( 2013-12-09 02:26 seems like finding the proper paper is the headache now 2013-12-09 02:29 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 02:32 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-09 02:33 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 03:15 nicksydney: just buy the photo paper? 2013-12-09 03:16 I've had something like this: http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product/sku/3544557/mfg_partno/Q8723A 2013-12-09 03:16 (probably not this particular SKU, but close) 2013-12-09 03:21 whitequark: seems like that same photo paper is quite successfull here also http://australianrobotics.com.au/news/pc-to-pcb-in-under-30-minutes-quick-n-easy-pcb-fabrication ...might go out and buy 2013-12-09 03:21 whitequark: is this the same as yours ... http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Office-Supplies/Paper/Photo-Paper/Gloss-Photo-Paper/INHPD5441A ? 2013-12-09 03:23 nicksydney: I really don't know, I suggest you try and use several of your local brands of photo paper 2013-12-09 03:24 even if it would be named the same, who knows whether HP actually delivers identical paper to RU and AU 2013-12-09 03:51 whitequark: "in russia, even paper is fake ?" 2013-12-09 03:53 nicksydney: ah, and when the time comes to remove the toner: you can use acetone but paint thinner/remover will do as well, is easy to get (acetone is often restricted), and likely safer than acetone 2013-12-09 03:55 IF you get acetone, make sure it never gets near the peroxide. that is, unless you're interested in making effective but highly unstable bombs :) 2013-12-09 03:59 wpwrak: that's not what I meant, though I won't be surprised either 2013-12-09 04:20 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-09 04:23 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 04:29 FDCX has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-09 04:33 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-09 04:54 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 05:23 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 05:28 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 05:31 now .. why the hell does anelok idle at 49 mA ... ? 2013-12-09 05:35 after reset, endless loop, 7.9 mA. okay. that's reasonable. 2013-12-09 05:35 then i initialize all the gpios. power should go DOWN ... 2013-12-09 05:58 hmm. before display_init, 4.0 mA. after 49 mA. that's a dark screen. making those black photons must be very difficult. 2013-12-09 06:02 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-09 06:04 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 06:36 hmm. nCS was shorted to ground. apparently by magic. 2013-12-09 07:24 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 07:31 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 07:48 dark magic 2013-12-09 08:06 hmm, running from battery doesn't look good 2013-12-09 08:06 even at only 20 mA (display + MCU, no RF, no MMC), the CR2032 collapses quickly 2013-12-09 08:07 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 08:09 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 08:28 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-09 08:34 inforyou has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 08:34 inforyou has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-09 09:50 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 10:25 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-09 10:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 11:09 wpwrak: have ever seen this kind of toner transfer paper http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-A4-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PCB-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/400505239086?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d3ff8f62e ? 2013-12-09 11:30 jekhor has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-09 11:59 i've heard of "specialized" papers, yes. some people say they're great, some people say they're useless, some people have an opinion in between. so pick one ;-) 2013-12-09 12:13 hahaha 2013-12-09 12:13 very hard to believe : 2013-12-09 12:13 :) 2013-12-09 12:13 i read in a number of blogs and most of them says that glossy magazine paper works 2013-12-09 12:40 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-09 12:41 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 12:41 nicksydney has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-09 12:44 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 12:49 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-09 12:50 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 12:53 it may have a high risk of the paper disintegrating. also, if it has something printed on it, it'll be harder to see if toner stayed on the paper 2013-12-09 12:53 see here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ 2013-12-09 12:55 3rd row: after the transfer, you can check that it's all white (except, if you CNC-drill before the transfer, for holes) 2013-12-09 12:58 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-09 12:59 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 12:59 nicksydney has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-09 13:00 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 13:00 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-09 13:01 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 13:04 wpwrak: true 2013-12-09 13:04 wpwrak: looks like it's trial and error for me....will buy the paper from officeworks.com.au tomorrow and try with that 2013-12-09 13:05 wpwrak: as for PCB i've put an order through ebay to buy 10piece for $10...the one i bought locally double sided 1 piece for $10 2013-12-09 13:08 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 13:15 pcercueiS2 has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 2013-12-09 13:23 jow_lapt1p has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 13:23 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-09 14:09 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-09 14:11 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 14:30 panda|w530 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-09 14:41 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 14:55 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-09 14:56 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:01 larsc has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-09 15:01 rozzin has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-09 15:01 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-09 15:06 larsc has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:07 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:18 rozzin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:28 qwebirc26075 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:28 qwebirc26075 is now known as rjeffries 2013-12-09 15:29 wpwrak remind me what the URL is for anelok wiki, please. 2013-12-09 15:38 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:45 https://gitorious.org/anelok/pages/Home 2013-12-09 15:50 thanks 2013-12-09 15:50 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 15:56 wpwrak what are your thoughts re battery life? is it something you can solve with more sophiticated software, or more fundamental hardware issues to solve? 2013-12-09 16:16 dunno yet. but if already 20 mA are problem, that's bad.may need a different battery :( 2013-12-09 16:21 coin cell battery is cute but such low capacity. you could redesign with 2xAAA with tradeoff that the case is thicker. BFD 2013-12-09 16:23 if AAA, then 1 x AAA. 2 x AAA is so 2000. 2013-12-09 16:23 anyway, afk for a bit 2013-12-09 16:26 LOL 2013-12-09 16:57 nicksydney has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-12-09 16:57 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 17:13 nicksydney I'm following your efforts to make an anelok PCB with interest. 2013-12-09 17:54 wpwrak (when you return) I thought Cortex M0+ have VERY low power consumption. or does the problem lie elsewhere in the circuit. Maybe with 1xAAA you can get 12 month battery life? "Replace batteries at Christmas" would be something one might remember to do. 2013-12-09 18:03 i dont like batteries. use a small li-something pack and recharge on usb 2013-12-09 18:05 hi roh 2013-12-09 18:05 hi lekernel 2013-12-09 18:09 roh, could you hook me up with the vacuum guy? (forgot his name...) he was supposed to email me, but did not 2013-12-09 18:11 i see... i'll mail him and you 2013-12-09 18:15 thx 2013-12-09 18:23 roh wpwrak doesn't like li- because they self-discharge much faster than other battery chemistry. 2013-12-09 18:27 if wpwrak were to change his mind, a commodity small cellphone battery is very cost effective. 3rd party battery for Kyocera JAX phone are cheap and small 3.7 V 700 mAh 2013-12-09 18:28 my opinion is anelok need not be as tiny as the current design is. 2013-12-09 18:33 rjeffries: if one uses it as much as i think needs to be done to make sense of having one, self-discharge shouldnt be an issue. 2013-12-09 18:33 just have a few hundred mAh.. 200 should be plenty 2013-12-09 18:33 recharge in 10-30 minutes on usb 2013-12-09 18:33 same socket you plug it for 'playing out' a passphrase 2013-12-09 19:22 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-09 19:51 but i can understand the shipping/whatever implications 2013-12-09 19:55 rjeffries has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-09 20:23 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 20:23 dos1 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-09 20:23 dos11 is now known as dos1 2013-12-09 20:26 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 20:30 faas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-09 20:30 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 21:12 faas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-09 21:37 morning all 2013-12-09 21:37 wpwrak: what's new ? 2013-12-09 21:37 rjeffries: cool..the more the merrier and we can exhchange ideas 2013-12-09 21:38 wpwrak: collected quite a number of different magazines yesterday and now just have to wait on PCB :( 2013-12-09 21:39 wpwrak: have you ever "reused" copper board that has been toner transferred ? would that be effective ? I was thinking of reusing the one that I have used with the toner transfer and clean it with acetone perhaps ? 2013-12-09 21:47 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 22:09 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-09 22:24 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 22:33 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 22:34 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 22:38 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-09 22:38 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-09 22:52 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:12 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 23:15 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:33 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:43 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:44 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 23:47 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-09 23:47 nicksydney: yes, acetone works 2013-12-09 23:53 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:54 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-09 23:55 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:02 FDCX has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-10 00:15 Hi I was wondering if there was a machine like the ubiquiti nanostation loco m2 which could be compatible with librewrt. I just need a unidireccional router that I could use in client mode. 2013-12-10 00:20 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:21 Well it seems like the only officially supported machines are the nanonote and Buffalo WZR-HP-G300NH, but it also says something about Atheros chipset, so that's why I thought there could be a possibility. 2013-12-10 00:37 dunno.. should be possible from the chipset.. if there is enough flash/ram.. dunno about the board support state 2013-12-10 00:42 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:45 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:45 freespac1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:46 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-10 00:46 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-10 00:46 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-10 00:46 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-10 00:51 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:56 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 00:56 arielenter: seems to be supported... dunno if explicitly or if you need to patch something 2013-12-10 00:57 porchao has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-10 00:58 Really that are great news :) thank you. But that was a lucky shot, I didn't knew it had the Atheros chipset, so yeih! me 2013-12-10 01:07 faas has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-10 01:09 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-10 01:11 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 01:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 01:22 http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/ubiquiti/airmaxm 2013-12-10 01:23 nothing specific in the source about the locos.. so i dunno if they have different device ids or something. but i guess its just a regular M hardware with one less antenna and no second ethernet socket 2013-12-10 01:23 newcup has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-10 01:23 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-10 01:23 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 01:27 Note: For the models with 1 ethernet (nanostation loco m, picostation m hp, bullet m) , use the bullet-m image. 2013-12-10 01:28 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-10 02:35 FDCX has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-10 02:37 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 03:20 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-10 03:21 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 03:51 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-10 04:19 xiangfu_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-10 04:22 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 07:05 whitequark has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-10 07:06 whitequark has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 07:59 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 08:08 faas_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 08:11 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-10 08:15 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 08:15 dos11 has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-10 09:08 roh: shipping, life-long sourcing, limited lifetime, messy logistics if you need an "instant" refill. self-discharge is the least of my worries. 2013-12-10 09:09 nicksydney: (reuse) yes, that's no problem. just was off the old toner with paint thinner/remover or acetone, then scrub it again with steel wool and it's good to go 2013-12-10 09:11 i've done this to boards at least twice, so the "wear" is low. 2013-12-10 09:13 (librewrt) heh, i actually googled for that, hoping to find some library with reverse-engineered wifi drivers (lib-rewr(i)t(e)) 2013-12-10 09:31 amazingly smart observation: http://xkcd.com/1301/ 2013-12-10 09:52 librewrt is as brain dead as stallmans ideas about hardware 2013-12-10 09:59 not saying its not a 'idealistic' idead... just one very unpractical one. 2013-12-10 09:59 -d 2013-12-10 10:35 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 10:35 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-10 10:52 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 10:53 nicksydney_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-10 11:18 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 11:37 roh; one of these "we take something that works, then spend a lot of effort removing the optional bits we could simply choose not to use, so that they won't tempt us" projects, no ? 2013-12-10 11:42 or do they add something that actually has value ? 2013-12-10 11:48 wolfspraul: something like that. no, nothing i know of 2013-12-10 11:49 irgh. s/wolfspraul/wpwrak 2013-12-10 12:04 auto-completion should have configurable priorities ... 2013-12-10 12:10 jow_lapt1p is now known as jow_laptop 2013-12-10 12:17 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 12:19 faas_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-10 12:21 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 12:26 The people at hackaday are working on a password safe too in their Developed on HaD: http://hackaday.com/2013/12/06/developed-on-hackaday-lets-build-some-hardware/ 2013-12-10 12:27 ("smart completion") heh, xchat actually has that. nice :) 2013-12-10 12:28 Though they're working with smartcards. 2013-12-10 12:37 today slacking not doing any pcb design 2013-12-10 12:38 how are things wpwrak 2013-12-10 12:41 nicksydney: recovering from a lot of beer :) 2013-12-10 12:42 sanderr: good. the more different approaches are being tried, the merrier 2013-12-10 12:45 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-10 12:46 wpwrak: i wish...too much paid work :) 2013-12-10 12:46 wpwrak: need to buy acetone tomorrow to remove the pcb design from the copper board 2013-12-10 12:48 wpwrak: what you think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRcAhQN7U3M ? 2013-12-10 12:48 wpwrak: perhaps we can do this at the same time with anelok ? :) 2013-12-10 12:54 bah. i already have something a little more substantial. look at, in this order: 2013-12-10 12:55 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tornado/proto1122.jpg 2013-12-10 12:55 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tornado/proto1122.ogv 2013-12-10 12:55 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ant/proto2.jpg 2013-12-10 12:55 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ant/edd1.jpg 2013-12-10 12:55 (the pictures are from different but similar devices) 2013-12-10 12:55 wow...cool...very nice 2013-12-10 12:56 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ant/proto2.jpg --> you look like you going to torture something with that :) 2013-12-10 12:56 hehe, hot poker ;-) 2013-12-10 12:57 you can find all that stuff here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/antorcha/ 2013-12-10 12:58 awesoem ! 2013-12-10 13:02 i used the "antorcha" device in real life. that's the "stick" with 802.15.4 radio that has 32 LEDs organized in 16 pixels. "tonado" has 64 individually addressable LEDs and has uSD instead of radio. didn't use it outside the lab, though. 2013-12-10 13:06 cool 2013-12-10 13:15 "tornado" is meant to be spun on a string. so it needs a bit of space. it's easier on the wielder's arm than the stick, though :) 2013-12-10 14:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-10 14:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 15:36 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 15:38 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-10 16:21 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-10 16:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 16:56 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 16:57 root_empire has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-10 17:22 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 17:28 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 17:29 dos11 is now known as dos1 2013-12-10 17:29 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-10 17:39 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 17:55 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 17:58 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-10 17:59 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 18:28 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 19:07 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-10 21:26 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-10 21:30 Hello there 2013-12-10 21:37 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-10 23:09 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-10 23:38 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-10 23:45 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-11 00:05 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 00:05 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-11 00:24 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 00:25 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 00:26 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 00:33 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 02:23 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:24 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-11 02:28 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:29 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:31 hellekin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-11 02:49 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-11 02:50 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:50 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:53 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 02:55 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 02:58 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-11 03:07 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-11 03:14 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-11 03:34 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 03:35 faas has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-11 03:35 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 04:00 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 262 seconds] 2013-12-11 04:17 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 04:24 larsc_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 04:24 larsc has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 04:28 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 04:30 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 05:39 faas has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-11 05:42 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 06:31 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-11 06:32 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 06:38 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 07:14 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-11 07:35 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 07:52 panda|x201 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-11 08:09 faas_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 08:10 faas has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-11 08:10 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 08:18 faas_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-11 08:22 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 08:27 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 08:43 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 09:23 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 09:29 Good morning 2013-12-11 09:34 apelete: how are things, long time no read 2013-12-11 09:36 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 09:39 larsc_: yeah, been busy for the last few weeks, preempted by work mostly 2013-12-11 09:40 slowly hacking my wau back to life though :) 2013-12-11 09:40 larsc_: yesterday I booked my tickets for FOSDEM, are you going there too ? 2013-12-11 09:43 probably 2013-12-11 09:45 larsc_: would be great to meet you there, let me know if/when you plan to be there 2013-12-11 09:46 I will be going by train btw, from Paris to Brussels 2013-12-11 09:47 yea, I heard that the connection is so fast that some people commute between paris and brussels 2013-12-11 09:49 true, it's a little less than 90min to go from paris to brussels 2013-12-11 09:54 in fact, I will be traveling from Toulouse actually, so my route is Toulouse -> Paris -> Brussels 2013-12-11 09:54 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 09:56 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 09:56 part of my family is living in paris, will be taking the opportunity to stop by, two birds one stone :) 2013-12-11 09:57 larsc_: anyway, just let me know when the time comes 2013-12-11 10:06 I should probably also try to book the hotel this week 2013-12-11 10:06 It only gets more expensive 2013-12-11 10:11 larsc_: don't know where you were planning to stay, but Astrid Centre Hotel is 66 EUR for 1 night, with VAT and breakfast included 2013-12-11 10:13 not sure how expensive that is compared to other hotels, but this one is in the town centre, so it's easy to go from there to fosdem or any place near the centre to have lunch 2013-12-11 10:16 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 10:22 larsc_: oops, forgot the link to Astrid Centre Hotel in case you might be interested: http://www.astridhotel.be/index-en.html 2013-12-11 10:42 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 11:34 [commit] Paul Cercueil: Do not try to change the permissions of the executables (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/31ad27f 2013-12-11 11:34 [commit] Paul Cercueil: Don't set called programs as group leaders (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/53ba01c 2013-12-11 11:39 mth: I pushed an 'opkrun' branch of gmenu2x 2013-12-11 11:39 as the name suggests it uses 'opkrun' to execute OPKs 2013-12-11 12:08 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:10 whitequark, would you like to log #m-labs? (the new milkymist channel) 2013-12-11 12:25 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-11 12:28 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:32 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-11 12:32 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:33 lekernel: sure 2013-12-11 12:34 _whitelogger has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:46 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 12:48 faas has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 2013-12-11 12:49 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:51 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 12:53 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:53 dos1 has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-11 12:53 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:53 faas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 12:56 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 12:56 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-11 13:10 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-11 13:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 13:27 faas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 13:39 pcercuei: any particular reason for not merging it into master yet? 2013-12-11 13:39 it breaks some stuff 2013-12-11 13:40 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 13:41 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-11 13:46 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:01 WielkiTost has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:02 kristian1aul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-11 14:02 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 2013-12-11 14:06 WielkiTost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 14:09 I also would like to add some more experimental changes, like move to .desktpo 2013-12-11 14:09 .desktop 2013-12-11 14:09 so I'd rather not do that on the main branch 2013-12-11 14:19 unclouded has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 14:19 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:21 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:21 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:27 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 14:33 faas has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-11 14:33 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:33 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:37 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:38 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:40 zrafa has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 14:41 wpwrak: hey, long time ! :) 2013-12-11 14:41 wpwrak: do you use libswd? 2013-12-11 14:43 heya ! long time indeed :0 2013-12-11 14:44 naw, i just use the nasty firmware from P&E 2013-12-11 14:44 they provide a file-based interface. it's actually quite convenient 2013-12-11 14:47 wpwrak: we got few samples from freescale, so now we want to program it some day :) 2013-12-11 14:48 do you have the FRDM-KL25Z board ? 2013-12-11 14:48 (or something similar) 2013-12-11 14:52 nope 2013-12-11 14:52 so you just have the chips ? 2013-12-11 14:55 exactly 2013-12-11 14:56 so we are thinking in something like openocd or similar 2013-12-11 14:56 if that exists 2013-12-11 15:03 yes, that should be possible. i found some descriptions that they mixed libswd and openocd. but it didn't look very nice. basically "work in progress" 2013-12-11 15:11 pcercuei: that's fine, it's just that non-master commits get fewer testing, so it only makes sense if there are known issues with it 2013-12-11 15:17 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 15:36 zrafa: here are some things i collected about programming the chips: https://gitorious.org/anelok/anelok/source/pgm/README 2013-12-11 15:37 towards the bottom i mention opensda and such. but i didn't actually try to make that stuff work. 2013-12-11 15:37 what chips did you get ? 2013-12-11 15:41 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-11 15:47 wpwrak: 5 x MKL26Z256VLH4 and 5 x MK20DX256VLH7 2013-12-11 15:47 wpwrak: great for the links 2013-12-11 15:47 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-11 16:05 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 16:06 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 16:34 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 16:43 WielkiTost has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 16:45 WielkiTost is now known as dos1 2013-12-11 16:49 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-11 17:03 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 17:06 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 17:23 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 17:33 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-11 18:03 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 18:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 18:27 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-11 18:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 18:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 18:47 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-11 18:50 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 18:59 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 19:07 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 19:21 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-11 19:21 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-11 19:22 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 19:29 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-11 19:35 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 20:31 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 20:40 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-11 21:03 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 21:11 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 21:11 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 21:12 hello all 2013-12-11 21:13 wpwrak: how are you ? 2013-12-11 21:20 wpwrak: windows didn't work out for my old PC something screwy happening and then i saw your link https://gitorious.org/anelok/anelok/source/2f63622570c8e10919c8c5b5219a1db1f1f8a6c7:pgm/README#L36 and read through it ... did you use Windows for flashing the new firmware ? ... most of the instructions mentioned Windows as the first step 2013-12-11 21:21 of course i did NOT use windows :) 2013-12-11 21:22 there would be about a page of lamentation and cursing if i had had to stoop quite so low 2013-12-11 21:23 no, it all worked fine with just linux 2013-12-11 21:23 but i think you have to update the P&E firmware (using the approach i described) 2013-12-11 21:30 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-11 21:47 the board itself is not identified at all in Linux .... i can even see in lsusb 2013-12-11 21:48 i meant i can't see it in lsusb 2013-12-11 21:48 were you able to see yours before flashing the new firmware ? 2013-12-11 22:10 yes ... are you using the correct usb connector ? 2013-12-11 22:10 also, you may have to follow the reset protocol before it will show up 2013-12-11 22:11 i.e., press and hold reset, then plug in usb, then release reset 2013-12-11 22:13 yeah there 2 connector SDA and KL25Z..i plug it to KL25Z and followed the reset step 2013-12-11 22:13 no luck 2013-12-11 22:13 even just plugging in without doing the reset step it does not recognize 2013-12-11 22:17 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-11 22:20 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-11 22:36 try plugging into the other one :) 2013-12-11 23:04 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-11 23:13 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-11 23:33 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-11 23:46 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 00:00 larsc_: just to let you know, just fixed the issue where the kernel was crashing when device was connected to a usb host -> http://paste.debian.net/70453/ 2013-12-12 00:03 next step: test if device is doing ethernet-over-usb as expected (ie, connecting the nanote to the internet via usb and see if it works) 2013-12-12 00:12 viric has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-12 00:19 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 00:24 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 00:26 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 2013-12-12 00:26 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-12 00:43 wpwrak: nah still doesn't work....surprised that your was working 2013-12-12 00:57 hmm. nothing at all ? what does dmesg on linux say ? 2013-12-12 01:06 i read about problems with linux. i was thus pleasantly surprised that i could make the update without hitting them. 2013-12-12 01:06 if you board is older than mine, maybe it has an older version of the bootloader as well. that could explain incompatibilities. 2013-12-12 01:11 looks like there is a problem with the cable...here is what i get 2013-12-12 01:12 http://pastebin.com/NLNft5wE 2013-12-12 01:12 i tried both SDA and non-SDA usb 2013-12-12 01:13 dmesg comes out with something 2013-12-12 01:13 but it is not mounting 2013-12-12 01:22 that looks pretty good 2013-12-12 01:22 what happens if you try to mount it ? 2013-12-12 01:23 ah, the log is longer .. reading ... 2013-12-12 01:23 "Using Reset button (connected to SDA)" is what you want 2013-12-12 01:23 then try to mount it 2013-12-12 01:29 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 01:31 let me try 2013-12-12 01:35 sudo mount -L BOOTLOADER /mnt/tmp....it just waiting for something :) 2013-12-12 01:36 good. sometimes it can take a moment. 2013-12-12 01:36 ok crossing fingers and toes :) 2013-12-12 01:36 hope this works 2013-12-12 01:36 if this works...that's one damn SLOW mounting 2013-12-12 01:36 depending on your system mounting by label may also not work at all 2013-12-12 01:37 well, i think it tries all the block devices to see which one is the right one 2013-12-12 01:37 not sure how smart it is about devices that don't want to respond 2013-12-12 01:37 anything interesting on dmesg ? 2013-12-12 01:38 if that mount doesn't work, just check the device name in dmesg and mount the /dev/sdc (or whatever it is) directly 2013-12-12 01:46 crazy... 2013-12-12 01:46 http://pastebin.com/7yxAbFDg 2013-12-12 01:47 ouch 2013-12-12 01:48 maybe try a different usb port, different cable, ... ? 2013-12-12 01:48 ... different pc :) 2013-12-12 01:49 :) 2013-12-12 01:49 let me see 2013-12-12 01:53 trying with /dev/sdc 2013-12-12 02:02 wpwrak: no luck...using /dev/sdc getting Buffer I/O error on device sdc, logical block ..... 2013-12-12 02:04 mmh. the mess you got before kinda hinted at that. different port/cable/pc ? 2013-12-12 02:07 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 02:15 Markvilla has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 2013-12-12 02:22 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 02:25 Markvilla has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-12 02:32 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 02:57 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 03:21 tried another computer and cable .. no luck still the same 2013-12-12 03:21 Buffer I/O issues 2013-12-12 03:28 hmm, i see an encounter with a window in your future then ... 2013-12-12 03:29 after updating the firmware of the board, the problem should disappear (i hope :) 2013-12-12 03:30 yeah looks like that...but now the sucky things...need a cd rom to boot windows from .. yuck 2013-12-12 03:31 the cd-rom is working in one laptop but it crashes when installing windows 2013-12-12 03:31 while the other old pc cd rom is not working 2013-12-12 03:42 seems like you can see where you have gone thanks to Google you being tracker 2013-12-12 03:42 https://maps.google.com/locationhistory/b/0 2013-12-12 03:42 *tracked 2013-12-12 03:55 useful if you lose something during a pub crawl that leaves with huge gaps in your memory :) 2013-12-12 04:05 hahaha...good one :) 2013-12-12 04:05 wpwrak: let me guess that's what you do on weekends 2013-12-12 04:05 hahaha 2013-12-12 04:08 sometimes ;-) 2013-12-12 04:32 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 04:34 you need to enable it explicitly though 2013-12-12 04:36 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 04:45 whitequark: you mean the tracking ? 2013-12-12 04:59 yes 2013-12-12 05:10 think if you use gmail or one of their service that could be the trigger point as most probably they check your IP to get lat and long 2013-12-12 05:16 wpwrak: got my shipment from buy-display.com 2013-12-12 05:16 5inch baby ! 2013-12-12 05:28 nicksydney: trigger point? it's an opt-in service 2013-12-12 05:28 whitequark: what you mean by opt-in service ? 2013-12-12 05:28 nicksydney: it asks me to opt in to enable collecting history 2013-12-12 05:28 whitequark: not familiar with that term sorry 2013-12-12 05:28 well, it's disabled by default 2013-12-12 05:29 whitequark: hmmm..where about is the setting ? 2013-12-12 05:29 page you linked to, upper right corner, cog icon 2013-12-12 05:30 and when I went to "Dashboard": Google Location History is not yet enabled for your Google Account. Please enable Location History and check back in a few days to allow for enough location history to be collected. 2013-12-12 05:31 oh ok i understand .. i mean it is able to track and keep history based on your location through using their services on your devices...that's why it's able to know where you were before...if i looked at mine it shows on the weekend i went somewhere and the only thing i carry was an android device that have got Google apps 2013-12-12 05:32 so i assume that every check ins using their service they are tracking that 2013-12-12 05:32 I guess so 2013-12-12 07:13 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 07:27 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 07:54 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 07:55 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-12 07:56 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 08:09 faas_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 08:12 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 08:17 panda|w530 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-12 08:21 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 08:43 jekhor has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-12 08:44 Good morning 2013-12-12 08:47 faas_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 09:13 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-12 09:24 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 09:26 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 09:56 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-12 10:32 larsc_: hi there 2013-12-12 10:35 hi 2013-12-12 10:36 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 10:43 larsc_: was thinking about the state of the non-upstream qi kernel patches, since musb glue layer is porgressing fine 2013-12-12 10:45 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-12 10:45 it still needs more testing, but fixed an issue for eth-over-usb feature yesterday night -> www.seketeli.fr/git/~apelete/qi-kernel.git/commit/?h=jz4740-musb&id=6371122ffc97a1e40e250c0daf3606d4c1772e47 2013-12-12 10:47 if everyhting goes fine, glue layer might finally be ready for release in its current state 2013-12-12 10:47 that's awsome 2013-12-12 10:48 larsc_: but it relies on some non-upstream patches in qi-kernel I think 2013-12-12 10:48 how should we proceed to get all of this upstream ? 2013-12-12 10:50 larsc_: finding out which patches are mandatory is a first step I guess, but it's the actual submission process I'm thinking about 2013-12-12 10:51 the usual way, send the patch to the maintainer :) 2013-12-12 10:52 you mean sending the patches on behalf of the authors if needed ? 2013-12-12 10:53 larsc_: I can take care of it if that's ok, just need to know if it is 2013-12-12 10:54 which patches exactly do you mean? 2013-12-12 10:55 -> lunch, be back later 2013-12-12 10:56 larsc_: hmmm, not sure which, there's alot of them in the qi-kernel tree and I remember needing them to test the fix I sent upstream for musb host negatiation protocol 2013-12-12 10:57 -> lunch, be back later 2013-12-12 10:57 no problem, we'll discuss this after lunch if you have time 2013-12-12 10:57 bon appétit ;-) 2013-12-12 11:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 11:05 larsc_: looking at the list of patches on jz-3.12, can't really tell which is needed in order to build & use the musb glue layer code -> http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-November/010406.html 2013-12-12 11:07 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-12 11:08 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 11:09 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 11:15 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-12 11:30 I don't think you should actually need any of the for musb 2013-12-12 11:51 faas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 11:51 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:04 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:05 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:06 very fascinating thread about Li-Ion batteries: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1snzg1/is_it_actually_bad_for_the_battery_of_a_laptop_to/ 2013-12-12 12:06 see replies from SketchBoard 2013-12-12 12:08 larsc_: ok, will try to rebase the musb glue layer code onto upstream 3.12 and see how it goes 2013-12-12 12:08 larsc_: will keep you posted, thanks for your time :) 2013-12-12 12:09 nicksydney_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:10 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:14 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:15 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:18 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-12 12:26 wpwrak: another day another ironing with anelok to copper board....this time not good 2013-12-12 12:42 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:42 nicksydney_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-12 12:42 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:42 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:49 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:49 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:51 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 12:53 nicksydney_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 12:54 what kind of paper are you trying ? and where are the problems ? 2013-12-12 13:11 tried different brochure and magazine paper 2013-12-12 13:12 haven't bought the new photo paper 2013-12-12 13:12 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-12 13:12 i'd stick with photo paper. magazine paper seems to be a high risk for disintegration. and getting that paper off the board is a pain. 2013-12-12 13:13 better find out how to make some nice solid glossy printer paper work 2013-12-12 13:15 came across this http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Sheets-A4-Size-Transparent-Film-Paper-for-PCB-Prototype-Making-/161121631309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258398fc4d which logically should work 2013-12-12 13:19 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 13:19 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-12 13:21 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-12 13:22 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 13:31 faas has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 13:32 well, if it makes you feel better when it says on the box that it's for toner transfer ;) 2013-12-12 13:32 ah wait. is it ...? 2013-12-12 13:33 ah no, that's for the photochemical process again 2013-12-12 13:33 well, you have to choose. if you keep on hopping between the two you'll never get anywhere 2013-12-12 13:35 :) 2013-12-12 13:36 will try again on the weekend with different paper hope have better luck 2013-12-12 13:37 perfect :) if you only vary a small number of parameters, it's easier to debug your process. there are typical categories of problems that can sometimes be solved with process variations. 2013-12-12 13:38 something else you can try is to make more than one test board at once. that way, you can see the effect of variations of the ironing (e.g., how long you keep the iron on the board, how hard you press, and so on) 2013-12-12 13:40 with manual ironing, i had a fair amount of variation. sometimes a board was perfect and the next one all wrong. takes some patience. 2013-12-12 13:46 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 13:46 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-12 13:49 the other idea that i was suggested by my wife was to heat up a teflon and use the heated part on the board as the heat are consistent when 2013-12-12 13:49 press the teflon heated part to the board :) 2013-12-12 13:57 hmmm. not sure if this wouldn't get a) too hot, and b) you'd have trouble applying enough pressure. 2013-12-12 13:58 but you can try it and see what happens :) maybe cut a number of small boards, maybe the size of atusb, and transfer that design. then you can try a lot of process variations in parallel. the difficulty of atusb is about the same as of anelok. 2013-12-12 14:24 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-12 14:25 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 14:38 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 15:37 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 16:02 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 16:34 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-12 17:53 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-12 18:42 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-12 18:44 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 18:58 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 19:38 larsc_, from that list, what are the best places to live? http://pastebin.com/p9JKx6Ej 2013-12-12 19:47 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 19:48 hm, maybe schwabing or bogenhausen, but it really depends on what you are looking for 2013-12-12 19:49 a WG 2013-12-12 19:50 yea 2013-12-12 19:51 I live in Milbertshofen, which is quite close to the office 2013-12-12 19:51 schwabing is also quite close 2013-12-12 19:52 I'd rather be close to the center 2013-12-12 19:52 schwabing is close to the center and close to the office 2013-12-12 19:52 kind of in between 2013-12-12 19:53 maxvorstadt is a bit closer to the center 2013-12-12 19:53 any good website to find WGs? 2013-12-12 19:54 I only know wg-gesucht.de 2013-12-12 19:54 half of the places in your list I've never heard before, which means they are probably more outside 2013-12-12 19:55 I was looking on http://www.easywg.de 2013-12-12 19:56 at least yours has an English version :p 2013-12-12 20:04 what the 2013-12-12 20:04 1000€ of deposit 2013-12-12 20:04 yea, it's crazy 2013-12-12 20:04 btw. do you want to go to fosdem? 2013-12-12 20:04 that's like 1000 times the money I have left 2013-12-12 20:06 I don't feel 100% comfortable with presenting something there 2013-12-12 20:06 but I can, if you want me to 2013-12-12 20:06 it's to late to present anyway 2013-12-12 20:07 ah 2013-12-12 20:07 deadlines are already over 2013-12-12 20:07 so you mean go there to attend comferences? 2013-12-12 20:07 yes 2013-12-12 20:07 sure then 2013-12-12 20:07 it's on the 1&2 of februrary 2013-12-12 20:07 not sure how this fits with your plans for moving 2013-12-12 20:11 but if you have time and want to go I'll try to get some funding for it 2013-12-12 20:16 honestly I can go only if I don't have to pay for it, I'm too short of money right now 2013-12-12 20:17 that's why I'm asking so I can try to get funding for you 2013-12-12 20:22 the prices are depressing 2013-12-12 20:22 in Chile I was living in the capital for 150€/month 2013-12-12 20:23 even in France the prices are not that high 2013-12-12 20:33 pcercuei: you should visit london. then you won't complain about prices anywhere else. well, maybe in the emirates :) 2013-12-12 20:44 yea, I was quite supprised, those prices seem pretty high for a WG 2013-12-12 20:55 http://www.wg-gesucht.de/en/wg-zimmer-in-Muenchen-Maxvorstadt.1048114.html 2013-12-12 20:55 that one is cheap 2013-12-12 21:03 "students only" 2013-12-12 21:04 I'm a student :p 2013-12-12 21:04 right 2013-12-12 21:08 oh and its a bruschenschaft... 2013-12-12 21:08 fraternity 2013-12-12 21:08 except that they are very conservative 2013-12-12 21:09 you wouldn't be allowed to bring a girl home or something 2013-12-12 21:10 because that would make the other frat boys jealous? 2013-12-12 21:11 Markvilla has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 2013-12-12 21:11 probably 2013-12-12 21:11 larsc_: internet-over-usb working on the NanoNote with musb driver -> http://paste.debian.net/70587/ 2013-12-12 21:11 yeay! 2013-12-12 21:11 very nice 2013-12-12 21:12 pretty awsome actually 2013-12-12 21:12 larsc_: yeah, thanks. took me a while but it's finally ready :) 2013-12-12 21:13 let's clean up some code and prepare some patches now 2013-12-12 21:14 ah, crap 2013-12-12 21:14 that's why it's so cheap :o 2013-12-12 21:14 apelete: good job! 2013-12-12 21:17 yea, otherwise nobody would want to move in with them 2013-12-12 21:18 larsc_: are you living in Munich ? 2013-12-12 21:19 yes 2013-12-12 21:19 larsc_: didn't know that, I was visiting some friends there a few ago, at the end of november :) 2013-12-12 21:20 s/a few/a few weeks/ 2013-12-12 21:20 apelete meant: "larsc_: didn't know that, I was visiting some friends there a few weeks ago, at the end of november :)" 2013-12-12 21:22 in those US movies about college life, aren't the fraternities the places with all the excessive parties and orgies ? 2013-12-12 21:22 apelete: ah, too bad :/ 2013-12-12 21:22 wpwrak: but you know what a burschenschaft is right? 2013-12-12 21:24 larsc_: yeah, let's hope we meet at fosdem anyway 2013-12-12 21:25 larsc_: only vaguely. what little i heard of them sounded sufficiently suspicious to me to douse any further curiosity 2013-12-12 21:26 pcercuei: prices in Munich seem a lot cheaper than in Toulouse to me, except for renting an apartment 2013-12-12 21:26 oh, you're in Toulouse? 2013-12-12 21:26 wpwrak: yea, definitly not the crowed you'd want to hang out with 2013-12-12 21:26 crowd 2013-12-12 21:27 pcercuei: yeah, where do you live right now ? 2013-12-12 21:27 near Cherbourg, Normandy 2013-12-12 21:27 fun story, I had the choice to go in Munich or Toulouse 2013-12-12 21:27 I eventually chose Munich 2013-12-12 21:29 toulouse needs to invest more into beer advertizing 2013-12-12 21:29 pcercuei: fun indeed. what are going there for if I may ask ? 2013-12-12 21:29 wpwrak: :D 2013-12-12 21:29 for an internship 2013-12-12 21:29 oh, great 2013-12-12 21:29 wpwrak: advertize which beer? There's no good beer in France 2013-12-12 21:30 pcercuei: what company did you chose between then ? 2013-12-12 21:30 Analog Devices Inc. in Munich, where larsc_ works 2013-12-12 21:31 versus Free Electrons in Toulouse 2013-12-12 21:32 both great choices, I know the guys at Free Electrons, a happy bunch 2013-12-12 21:32 yep 2013-12-12 21:33 Munich is probably a good choice since you're still a student. different culture, opportunity to travel abroad and working on interesting things of course ;) 2013-12-12 21:34 only problem, I don't speek german 2013-12-12 21:35 yeah well, I know someone who lives there and learned only after coming there 2013-12-12 21:35 pcercuei: you'll work it out probably, don't worry :) 2013-12-12 21:36 yeah, I don't worry about it 2013-12-12 21:38 in the end I was very impressed with the city overall, it was my first time in Munich and I enjoyed it. will probably go back when I get the chance :) 2013-12-12 21:38 sure, come and say hi 2013-12-12 21:38 we'll take a beer 2013-12-12 21:39 pcercuei: let's hope you can come too fosdem with larsc_, that would be really great 2013-12-12 21:39 s/too/to 2013-12-12 21:39 apelete meant: "pcercuei: let's hope you can come to fosdem with larsc_, that would be really great" 2013-12-12 21:40 yep 2013-12-12 22:03 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 22:10 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 22:12 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-12 22:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 22:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 23:06 pcercuei has quit [Quit: brb] 2013-12-12 23:25 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-12 23:28 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-12 23:51 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-12 23:56 nicksydney_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-12 23:58 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 00:02 Everyone went silent after talking about fraternies. A worrying sign! :-) 2013-12-13 00:02 s/fraternies/fraternities 2013-12-13 00:02 paul_boddie meant: "Everyone went silent after talking about fraternities. A worrying sign! :-)" 2013-12-13 00:12 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-13 00:21 makes you wonder what sort of fraternizing may go on in these channels, doesn't it ? :) 2013-12-13 00:25 I think with the whole "qi" thing, we're a bit too cutting edge for the triple-Greek-letter traditional fraternities. 2013-12-13 00:27 Whereas some German fraternities are a bit too cutting edge for us... literally. ;-) 2013-12-13 00:29 hehe :) 2013-12-13 00:43 paul_boddie has quit [] 2013-12-13 01:14 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 01:43 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 01:46 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 02:00 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 02:08 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-13 02:37 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 03:23 Markvilla has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 2013-12-13 04:14 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 04:16 wpwrak: normally when you start designing in kicad and once you are ready with the schematics how do you tell Pcbnew that you would like it to be laid out as 1 sided and not 2 sided ? 2013-12-13 04:52 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-13 05:25 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-13 05:35 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 06:01 hmm, i think 2 sides is already the default. but what i really do it that i copy the *.pro from an existing project, then edit the libraries 2013-12-13 06:01 i don't use kicad to edit libraries. too painful. 2013-12-13 06:01 (edit libraries) i mean the list of libraries. 2013-12-13 06:02 i do use kicad to edit new schematics symbols, e.g., new chips 2013-12-13 06:02 and - later on - i use fped to edit new footprints 2013-12-13 06:09 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 06:12 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-13 07:05 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 08:08 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 08:56 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 08:59 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-13 09:01 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 09:01 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 09:06 Markvilla has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-13 10:04 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 10:17 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 13:03 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-13 13:06 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 13:18 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 14:17 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-13 14:18 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 14:30 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-13 14:31 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 14:51 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 14:52 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:17 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-13 16:29 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:37 pcercuei has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-13 16:38 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:41 mth_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:43 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 16:43 kanzure has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2013-12-13 16:43 mth has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2013-12-13 16:44 mth_ is now known as mth 2013-12-13 16:45 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:46 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:47 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 16:49 pcercuei has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-13 17:15 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 17:22 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 17:29 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-13 17:34 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 18:16 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-13 18:17 jekhor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-13 19:03 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-13 19:05 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 20:33 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 21:52 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-13 22:21 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 22:39 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-12-13 22:41 larsc_: ben nenonote kernel build fails with current linux-usb master branch -> http://paste.debian.net/70796/ 2013-12-13 22:41 using this patch of yours fixes it -> http://seketeli.fr/git/~apelete/qi-kernel.git/commit/?h=jz4740-musb&id=654fa4606ec498505bac64ceb8c5ccffb18da55d 2013-12-13 22:43 it seems we may have a dependency here for musb glue layer patches 2013-12-13 22:44 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 22:44 larsc_: shouldn't your patch "ASoC: jz4740: Use the generic dmaengine PCM driver" be submitted upstream ? 2013-12-13 22:48 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-13 22:51 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 23:07 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 23:42 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 23:43 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-13 23:53 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-13 23:56 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-14 00:02 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 00:06 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 00:08 lekernel has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-14 00:11 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-14 00:16 wpwrak: going to experiment with different paper and also ironing time to see if i can have better success...wish me luck :0 2013-12-14 00:18 luck ! :) 2013-12-14 00:50 pcercuei_ has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-14 01:32 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 02:02 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-14 02:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-14 02:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 02:51 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 02:53 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:11 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:13 nickoe_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:13 bartbes_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:14 whitequark has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:14 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:14 nickoe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:14 bartbes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:16 whitequark has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:17 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:46 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 04:47 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-14 04:47 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-14 07:23 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-14 07:24 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 07:56 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 08:57 apelete: the patch is upstream now 2013-12-14 09:18 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-14 09:19 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 09:41 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 10:01 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 10:06 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-14 10:07 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 10:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 10:13 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-14 10:20 larsc_: you submitted it recently ? doesn't show up in the upstream tree nor in lkml 2013-12-14 10:34 larsc_: found it -> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipermail/alsa-devel/2013-December/069720.html 2013-12-14 10:36 thanks for pushing it upstream, without it building the kernel for the nanonote fails 2013-12-14 11:01 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 11:04 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-14 11:04 viric_ is now known as viric 2013-12-14 11:06 hmm, the drawback of living in a tall building: if electricity fails for the elevators, going down to get groceries gets kinda inconvenient. 2013-12-14 11:40 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 11:47 Markvilla has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 11:48 nickoe_ is now known as nickoe 2013-12-14 11:49 drawback of living: it's kinda inconvenient :p 2013-12-14 11:49 ah, i forgot: russian winter :) 2013-12-14 11:50 and there's only so far the spirits can lift the spirits ... 2013-12-14 11:53 ah no, "... can lift the spirit" 2013-12-14 11:53 heh 2013-12-14 11:54 still short of my morning caffeine dose 2013-12-14 11:54 upside of global warming: it'll be warmer in moscow 2013-12-14 11:54 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 11:55 downside of global warning: I'd rather have a nice city above the water 2013-12-14 11:55 ah yes, it kinda sucks when the permafrost thaws, doesn't it ? :) 2013-12-14 11:57 recently found this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salekhard%E2%80%93Igarka_Railway 2013-12-14 11:57 interestingly, the article in the german wikipedia is a bit more detailed: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarkreiseisenbahn 2013-12-14 11:58 and then we have of course this: http://www.stalinbahn-trilogie.de/ 2013-12-14 11:59 this is kinda cute, too: http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/22/stalins-lost-railway/ 2013-12-14 11:59 huh 2013-12-14 12:00 actually, the pictures look like the average railroad in argentina 2013-12-14 12:01 a few days ago, a train derailed some 100 m before the major train station i have right next door. it reportedly went at the blazing speed of 5 km/h at the time ... 2013-12-14 12:02 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 12:03 oh, i see one inching into the station right now 2013-12-14 12:03 if i keep very still, i can actually see it move :) 2013-12-14 12:05 I always wondered, why do you live in argentina? 2013-12-14 12:06 good meat and wine ;-) 2013-12-14 12:06 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-14 12:06 that's an excellent answer :p 2013-12-14 12:06 weather is also nice most of the time. and i have a car. no need to risk my life on the train. 2013-12-14 12:11 the trains may now be going so slow because of another accident a couple of months ago. last year, we had the big one with > 50 people dead: http://www.argentinaindependent.com/currentaffairs/newsfromargentina/dozens-of-people-dead-from-once-train-crash/ 2013-12-14 12:12 that one crashed into a completely jammed bumper. so the train didn't look all that badly damaged afterwards, but it had telescoped since all the kinetic energy was absorbed by the train itself 2013-12-14 12:12 now let me find some pictures of the october 2013 crash ... 2013-12-14 12:13 http://www.infobae.com/2013/10/19/1517276-otro-accidente-el-sarmiento-choco-un-tren-la-estacion-once 2013-12-14 12:15 and here are some videos: http://tn.com.ar/sociedad/asi-fue-el-choque-del-tren-Sarmiento-en-once_416784 2013-12-14 12:17 this time the bumper did its job. the train was actually going quite fast (20 km/h or maybe a bit faster), too fast for the bumper to stop it properly. so it climbed up on the platform. luckily, nobody was in its path at the time. 2013-12-14 12:18 here's a picture of the bumper they had installed in 2013: http://www.clarin.com/ciudades/Choque-tren-Afirman-paragolpes-podido-detener-Once_0_1018698237.html 2013-12-14 12:19 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 12:20 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 12:23 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-14 12:23 wpwrak: I don't think they will increase much security measures, as long as train is "safer than cars", by some statistics. 2013-12-14 12:24 naw, there's a lot of public pressure now. the train network is in a horrible state. 2013-12-14 12:24 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 12:25 in fact, i've read that on this line, most people travel gratis because the government doesn't dare to enforce ticket controls 2013-12-14 12:27 ah 2013-12-14 12:27 it's one of the major commuter lines that bring people from the metropolitan area into the city. so there's quite a lot of people on it. that's also why the 2012 crash was so deadly - the train was already bursting with people, so even a relatively small amount of compression did a lot of damage 2013-12-14 12:30 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 12:51 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-14 12:53 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 13:03 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 13:03 grmbl. still no power in the service sector. that's not only the elevators but also the water pump. well, if i'm lucky, the main pump is still working, so we have water but with low pressure. that's not a big problem. means i can't have a shower in my main bathroom but i have another one where the pressure is sufficient. 2013-12-14 13:05 it's too low for the heater to engage, so the water will be "cold". but of course, with an ambient temperature above 30 C, that's not really an inconvenience :) 2013-12-14 13:08 http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/public-sector/3493623/munich-declares-switch-open-source-successfully-completed/ 2013-12-14 13:10 a loong journey. i think i heard of their project already before 2000. but it's good that they saw it through. 2013-12-14 13:32 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 13:40 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 13:56 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-14 14:40 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 14:57 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 15:02 i've got the power (back) ! :) 2013-12-14 15:03 whitequark: hmm, your IRC logs aren't easily downloadable, are they ? with the transition of #m-labs, we'll lose the milkymist IRC statistics 2013-12-14 15:13 wpwrak: I can write an API for you to download them in whatever format you want 2013-12-14 15:13 won't take much time 2013-12-14 15:15 how do you store them ? plain text log ? 2013-12-14 15:16 wpwrak: mysql 2013-12-14 15:16 I wanted full-text search and I wanted it to be fast 2013-12-14 15:17 (though in retrospect I should have used postgres. I'll migrate to it one day.) 2013-12-14 15:19 bah, nothing faster than plain text :) well, if you could dump is in a log-like format by month, that would be ideal. e.g., http://irclog.whitequark.org/m-labs/2013-12.txt 2013-12-14 15:20 wpwrak: indexes :p 2013-12-14 15:20 doesn't need anything fancy since all i do is compress is to see how much information is really in there 2013-12-14 15:20 (log-like) can you be more specific? 2013-12-14 15:20 hm 2013-12-14 15:21 maybe use whatever format you'd use if you wanted to print it 2013-12-14 15:21 so 2013-13-13 13:13 message 2013-12-14 15:21 perfect 2013-12-14 15:34 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 15:50 wpwrak: http://irclog.whitequark.org/m-labs/2013-12.txt 2013-12-14 15:50 and http://irclog.whitequark.org/m-labs/2013-12-11.txt also works 2013-12-14 16:09 perfect. thanks a lot ! 2013-12-14 16:17 is there a way to log a kernel panic? 2013-12-14 16:19 pcercuei: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/CrashdumpRecipe 2013-12-14 16:25 ugh 2013-12-14 16:25 looks difficult 2013-12-14 16:25 serial console ? 2013-12-14 16:26 I don't have one :( 2013-12-14 16:27 oh well, I believe I can try on a device that has one 2013-12-14 16:28 maybe you can make the kernel write to a fixed memory area, and then tell it to not use that area otherwise 2013-12-14 16:28 the kernel panic I'm hunting is in gpio-keys so it's not very hardware-specific 2013-12-14 16:28 I think there's a combination of options that would do that 2013-12-14 16:28 then you could use dd if=/dev/mem 2013-12-14 16:28 whitequark: and pray that the BIOS won't erase that memory for you ... 2013-12-14 16:28 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 16:28 wpwrak: they don't really erase entire RAM anymore 2013-12-14 16:29 for a long time 2013-12-14 16:29 and definitely not on a warm boot 2013-12-14 16:29 I mean, it's at least worth a try. 2013-12-14 16:29 dunno. too many did back when i tried that. but that was < 2000 :) 2013-12-14 16:29 * whitequark nods 2013-12-14 16:47 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 17:02 pcercuei has quit [Quit: bye] 2013-12-14 17:40 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-14 18:05 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 18:05 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-14 18:06 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 18:07 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 18:22 lilvinz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-14 18:48 dos1: whoa ! neo900 *jumped* over the 50kEUR mark. congratulations ! 2013-12-14 18:49 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 18:54 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-14 18:56 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-14 19:06 lilvinz has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 19:11 chamelion has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 19:11 chamelion has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-14 19:26 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-14 19:28 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 19:30 kyak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 19:30 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 19:32 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-14 19:32 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-14 19:32 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-14 20:17 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 20:20 jekhor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-14 20:20 and another power loss ... this summer promises to be fun 2013-12-14 20:22 rozzin has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-12-14 20:34 nicksydney_: how did the ironing go ? the morning sun must be rising over sydney now. that's usually the time when the "quick project" you started the day before begins to work :) 2013-12-14 21:03 Markvilla has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 2013-12-14 21:47 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-14 22:07 wpwrak: morning....just got up .... the ironing didn't go well....i bought different kind of papers from art shop also and also few plastic-y kind of paper but no luck 2013-12-14 22:08 wpwrak: i have a feeling that it's the copper board as i was reusing the same part of the board... 2013-12-14 22:08 wpwrak: does acetone makes it harder for the toner to stick ? 2013-12-14 22:09 wpwrak: applied acetone 4 different times to remove the toner to reuse it 2013-12-14 22:22 did you also scrub it again with steel wool after removing the toner ? 2013-12-14 22:23 (just made a little adapter board. if it hadn't forgotten one little - easy to fix - trace, it would have been flawless :) 2013-12-14 22:38 hmm, the pen-eating monster seems to have switched its taste to USB cables. there should be half a ton of them in my lab. yet it's hard to find even one ... 2013-12-14 22:55 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-14 23:03 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-14 23:14 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-14 23:15 no i did not and i think that is the mistake 2013-12-14 23:15 going to try again today and see how it goes 2013-12-14 23:23 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 00:04 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-15 00:12 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 00:13 today is blackout day :-( 2013-12-15 00:29 damn it !!!!...still doesn't want to stick ! 2013-12-15 00:29 the only successful one (around 60% stick) is the brochure 2013-12-15 00:32 maybe your iron is set too cold ? 2013-12-15 00:33 or maybe you're not ironing long enough 2013-12-15 00:33 or not applying enough pressure. you can pretty much push down as hard as you like.. 2013-12-15 00:34 also, what does "doesn't want to stick" mean ? nothing at all ? 2013-12-15 00:37 i meant the toner doesn't want to stick completely on the board :) 2013-12-15 00:38 i set the iron to the ma 2013-12-15 00:38 *max 2013-12-15 00:38 if i still see the toner still stick to the paper does that mean that not enough heat being transferred ? 2013-12-15 00:38 in terms of pressure my feeling is i apply enough pressure but probably need to press bit harder 2013-12-15 00:40 yes, i'd try with a bit more pressure and maybe more time ironing 2013-12-15 00:41 how do you treat the surface of the paper ? do you clean it with alcohol ? or not at all ? you can try reversing whatever you do there 2013-12-15 00:43 (clean with alcohol) wet a bit with alcohol, leave it there for a few seconds, then gently remove the jelly-like stuff from the surface with a paper towel. 2013-12-15 00:43 not all papers have such a surface treatment, but many do 2013-12-15 00:55 for the paper not at all no treatment 2013-12-15 00:55 you mean clean the paper with alcohol before printing or after printing the artwork ? 2013-12-15 01:01 mldr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 01:01 before printing 2013-12-15 01:05 jekhor has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-15 01:11 this the current one I'm working on ..... http://snag.gy/hWEBO.jpg .... http://ctrlv.in/270531 .... http://ctrlv.in/270532 2013-12-15 01:11 i'm still soaking the board in the water with hot water..let's see if those paper will come off by itself 2013-12-15 01:13 don't soak. the paper really ought to come off dry. 2013-12-15 01:13 if you soak it, you weaken the bonding of the surface, so the paper is more likely to remain 2013-12-15 01:15 i wonder whether the copper is smooth enough. you're using fine steel wool, right ? not the coarse stuff 2013-12-15 01:16 fine = the threads are about as thick as hair; coarse = the "threads" are maybe 0.5-1 mm wide 2013-12-15 01:17 then, you should scrub in an X pattern: left-right until the copper shines, then up-down until you only see up-down grooves, then maybe repeat left-right 2013-12-15 01:18 then clean the board surface with alcohol and paper towel. this is important for removing the steel dust 2013-12-15 01:25 i think the step that i'm missing in cleaning the board is the use of alchohol....i only use water 2013-12-15 01:27 ah no, water is bad. that'll only help the oxides back on board 2013-12-15 01:28 besides, the alcohol will get rid of any lipids 2013-12-15 01:28 i'm uploading the steel wool pic 2013-12-15 01:29 http://ctrlv.in/270542 -- steel woll 2013-12-15 01:29 that's the coarse stuff 2013-12-15 01:29 another batch trying again -- http://ctrlv.in/270543 2013-12-15 01:31 hmm, that paper looks quite thin. maybe that's part of the problem 2013-12-15 01:33 the one i use is about 240 um. for comparison, regular laser printer paper is about 100 um. 2013-12-15 01:34 so the printer paper has about the thickness of the paper you put photo prints on 2013-12-15 01:35 well, maybe it only looks thin. how large is that sheet ? 2013-12-15 01:36 if i compare with a normal A4 paper it's bit thicker 2013-12-15 01:36 the steel wool you want should look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steel-wool.jpg 2013-12-15 01:37 or like this: http://d3rhfm7sshutfw.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/steelwool-300x285.jpg 2013-12-15 01:40 that other steel wool, if you pick the copper/bronce version of the same structure, makes an excellent sponge to clean the soldering iron. much more convenient than real sponges since it doesn't need to be wet. 2013-12-15 01:40 the result after peeling off from the board (this is the 2nd attempt) -- http://ctrlv.in/270546 2013-12-15 01:40 (but don't use steel wool - use copper/bronce wool. the steel would damage the tip of the soldering iron) 2013-12-15 01:41 (picture) i'm confused :) 2013-12-15 01:42 what's that yellow-white film stuff ? 2013-12-15 01:42 this is the result on the board (for the 2nd attempt) http://ctrlv.in/270547 .. and this is the result on the paper what is left over of the toner after peeling it off from the board http://ctrlv.in/270546 2013-12-15 01:42 the "yellow-film" stuff is a brochure paper i'm using 2013-12-15 01:43 ah, i see 2013-12-15 01:43 you still have the problem that the paper disintegrates 2013-12-15 01:44 that paper probably doesn't have enough strength. and it probably simply doesn't have enough plastic/jelly on its surface 2013-12-15 01:44 so the toner really likes to stay on the paper 2013-12-15 01:45 please use a glossy "photo" paper for ink printers. once you get that to work, you can always try to find some cheaper paper source. but it's probably not worth the effort. 2013-12-15 01:46 this is the original brochure paper i used for the 2nd attempt http://ctrlv.in/270549 2013-12-15 01:47 ah, i see. don't know how these are made. the chemistry may be quite different from "photo" paper 2013-12-15 01:48 looks like i need to revisit (1) the way the copper is being clean and (2) just use photo paper ... what you think ? 2013-12-15 01:48 btw, there's yet another choice: if you can't find any photo paper with enough plastic on it, you can try the plastified paper on which adhesive stickers come 2013-12-15 01:49 (1) for cleaning the copper .. will need to find the steel wool you showed in that link and also will need alcohol...in terms of cleaning the board...i just use alchohol to clean it OR clean it first with water and than apply alcohol > 2013-12-15 01:50 a few warnings about that, though: a) you need to clean it very well or you'll drag glue into your printer causing an early retirement of at least the transfer drum, and b) you need to work at a lower temperature with this sort of paper 2013-12-15 01:51 "lower temp with this sort of paper"...you mean the photo paper ? 2013-12-15 01:51 (cleaning) just alcohol: 1) scrub it nice and shiny with the steel wool, then 2) put a bit of alcohol on it, wet a paper town with alcohol, then rub off the steel dust (you can apply a good amount of pressure). you'll see that the paper towel comes back black. 2013-12-15 01:52 (lower temp) subtrate for adhesives. the "plan B" approach 2013-12-15 01:53 but it's better if you can get "photo" paper to work. that's more robust. the adhesives stuff is also very sensitive to pressure and such. so it smears easily. you can get it to work but it takes some effort. 2013-12-15 01:54 it's basically the exact opposite of your not-to-cooperative brochure. but of course, if failure lurks at one extreme, that doens't mean that the other extreme is any friendlier :) 2013-12-15 01:55 # s/-to-/-so-/ 2013-12-15 01:56 this is the photo paper i got ... http://ctrlv.in/270552 2013-12-15 01:58 the one i used was called "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper" 2013-12-15 01:58 actually, "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy" 2013-12-15 01:59 so maybe that's one extra ppm of plastic :) 2013-12-15 01:59 is this Isopropyl Alcohol http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/Cons_Isopropyl_Alcohol_PDS_Oct11.pdf enough ? 2013-12-15 01:59 but of course we don't get that good stuff around here anymore 2013-12-15 02:00 the replacement i use now is this: http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html 2013-12-15 02:01 it gives off particles that will eventually produce visible artefacts on the printer's drum but the transfer is very clean. and no problems at all with paper disintegrating. 2013-12-15 02:02 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-15 02:03 (alcohol) looks decent enough. they don't even mention the concentration so maybe it's actually pure :) 2013-12-15 02:05 (alchohol) will buy that later today and also the steel wool and will try again with the HP photo paper again 2013-12-15 02:05 using this paper http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html were you able to do transfer completely everytime ? 2013-12-15 02:06 if you have a stationary / computer supplies shop on the way, maybe look for that chinese paper, too. maybe you're lucky :) 2013-12-15 02:06 yes, it works great. remember this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ 2013-12-15 02:07 the one on the left is the "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy", the one on the right the paper from china 2013-12-15 02:07 there is on ebay.com.au http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-20-Sheets-x-A4-Glossy-Photo-Paper-For-Inkjet-Printer-140gsm-/251249784571?pt=AU_Computers_Printer_Accessories&hash=item3a7fa776fb 2013-12-15 02:08 its main weakness are large surfaces. there, it sometimes leaves holes. but then you can just cover them up with a permanent marker. or ignore the imperfection. 2013-12-15 02:09 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 02:10 mine is heavier, 240-260 g 2013-12-15 02:10 when you did this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ you just peel the paper off and that's it ? 2013-12-15 02:11 yup. nice and easy ;-) 2013-12-15 02:11 the one that I have http://ctrlv.in/270552 it says 250 2013-12-15 02:12 well, i wash the board afterwards. with tap water, rubbing it with a thumb. that way, any plastic residues that may get in the way of the acid come off. else you can have some small copper spots. 2013-12-15 02:13 250 sounds good. that means that they have enough space to make it nice 2013-12-15 02:15 i was wondering you know with this one http://ctrlv.in/270531 what will happen if the paper is not removed completely and then etch it ? 2013-12-15 02:16 the acid will politely refrain from touching the areas it's being blocked from 2013-12-15 02:17 i see....because it looks like it sticks to the copper but the paper "refuses" to let it go 2013-12-15 02:17 maybe a little bit will make it under the paper but its effect will be greatly reduced 2013-12-15 02:19 well, unless you make a REALLY aggressive mix. if you make the acid bad enough, then it'll just eat through anything in its way. be that paper, pieces of nick, or whatever :) 2013-12-15 02:20 yup, that's what it looks like. most likely the thin plastic surface coating, not the paper itself. so that's a very efficient acid barrier. 2013-12-15 02:20 from all the paper i've tried that one i notice was the most successful one....but it's so annoying that i can't get rid of the left over paper 2013-12-15 02:21 http://ctrlv.in/270531 --> in this one you notice the top and bottom part i strip off the paper and the whole toner came off with it 2013-12-15 02:21 naw, that doesn't look very successful. exactly because of that problem 2013-12-15 02:21 don't be fooled by the nice print you can see through the paper. that's toner on paper, not toner on copper. 2013-12-15 02:22 ahh ok...thought that the toner has "stick" to the copper but the paper refuses to do it 2013-12-15 02:23 all the places where you were able to remove the paper say otherwise :) 2013-12-15 02:24 well, except the about 2 x 2 mm lower right corner. these three vias and their traces look quite nice ;) 2013-12-15 02:25 will try again later .. need to go out after this and drop by to buy the alcohol and steel wolll 2013-12-15 02:25 happy hunting ! :) 2013-12-15 02:32 oh the other thing i was thinking and tried was the clear tape https://www.google.com.au/search?q=clear+tape&client=ubuntu&hs=URi&channel=fs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qBStUtoziMiVBZyLgNAG&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1615&bih=960 2013-12-15 02:33 what about it ? 2013-12-15 02:33 so i lay a brochure paper and put clear tape on top of that and than print on it ..and after ironing the board i peel it off i can see that is sticks better to the board 2013-12-15 02:33 ;-) 2013-12-15 02:33 but it was not 100%..it was around 70-75% successful on the board 2013-12-15 02:33 well, that's one way of getting plastic ... 2013-12-15 02:34 yes, that could work if you refine the process sufficiently 2013-12-15 02:34 do you think the paper that is used for laying the plastic tape on really matter when it comes to ironing it to the board ? 2013-12-15 02:36 will try that again once i clean the board properly and see if it will work 2013-12-15 02:37 (paper used for laying the plastic tape on) you mean if you print on adhesive tape instead of on photo paper ? well, it would still have to make a firm connection with the adhesive tape. but else, it would be removed from the equation. 2013-12-15 02:45 kristian1aul has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2013-12-15 02:45 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 02:45 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 02:46 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 03:06 bwahaha: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iteaduino-lite-most-inexpensive-full-sized-arduino-derivative-board 2013-12-15 03:06 finally - an arduino at the price of a four-pack of toilet paper. 2013-12-15 03:14 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-15 03:15 Markvilla has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 2013-12-15 06:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-15 06:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 06:37 kyak_ is now known as kyak 2013-12-15 06:46 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-15 06:48 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 07:00 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-15 07:01 porchaso0 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-15 07:02 huh. LGT88A8, a clone of atmega328 2013-12-15 07:03 seems like a first of its kind 2013-12-15 07:14 maybe a nightshift version of it ;) 2013-12-15 07:27 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 07:37 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 07:39 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 2013-12-15 07:55 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 09:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 09:13 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-15 09:16 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 10:16 apelete: yep, unfortunatelly something went wrong when the patches were submitted originally and the patch removing the old custom API was merged before the audio driver was updated. 2013-12-15 10:17 apelete: how about adding your usb patches to the qi kernel tree? 2013-12-15 10:34 larsc_: was thinking about it yesterday. is it okay if I push them to jz-3.12 branch ? 2013-12-15 10:34 yes 2013-12-15 10:34 okay 2013-12-15 10:56 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 11:15 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-15 11:24 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-15 11:26 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 11:31 jekhor has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-15 11:39 [commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: add support for JZ4740 usb device controller (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/03232dd 2013-12-15 11:39 [commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: fix setting JZ4740 gadget periphal mode on reset (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/77ae279 2013-12-15 11:39 [commit] Apelete Seketeli: mips: qi_lb60: update defconfig for the Ben NanoNote (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/364d81f 2013-12-15 11:42 I think we can also revert the old driver 2013-12-15 11:43 But this is really awesome, since this was one of the last major missing pieces to finally have full upstream support for the nanonote 2013-12-15 11:44 larsc_: hmm, old driver is already disabled in the code, maybe we can wait that the musb glue layer is merged upstream before removing it completely 2013-12-15 11:44 what do you think ? 2013-12-15 11:46 I'd just remove it 2013-12-15 11:46 but whatever you think is better 2013-12-15 11:46 We may use the old driver to figure out how to get dma working 2013-12-15 11:47 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-15 11:48 larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure how some things like dma may work 2013-12-15 11:48 s/figure/figure out/ 2013-12-15 11:48 apelete meant: "larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure out how some things like dma may work" 2013-12-15 11:49 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:22 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:25 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-15 12:26 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:33 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:45 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:52 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 12:55 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-15 13:24 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 13:46 nicksydney has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 2013-12-15 15:33 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 15:33 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-15 15:42 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 15:47 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-15 15:51 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 17:52 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-12-15 17:59 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-15 18:04 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 18:45 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 19:13 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 19:16 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-15 19:37 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-15 19:49 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 20:22 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-15 20:24 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 20:32 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 20:34 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-15 20:44 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-15 20:46 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:23 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:30 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-15 21:31 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:32 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-12-15 21:33 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:34 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:35 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0.1/20131112160018]] 2013-12-15 21:38 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-15 21:46 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 21:47 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-15 21:53 wpwrak: got the alcohol yesterday...got this one http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=40678 2013-12-15 21:53 wpwrak: will "resume" the adventure lunch time ;) 2013-12-15 22:02 oh, right, it's already monday over there :) 2013-12-15 22:03 the alcohol looks good 2013-12-15 22:03 (gee, that's an easy thing to say :) 2013-12-15 22:05 to ease the frustation pain i'm having with this task i have to make sure that I can make myself happy by saying thing that I think is not possible on paper :) 2013-12-15 22:06 oh the other thing forgot to mention...i'm using iron like this http://shop.target.com.au//p/philips-powerlife-steam-iron-22-watts-gc296/P50242214?utm_term=P50242214&utm_content=philips-powerlife-steam-iron-22-watts-gc296&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant-site&utm_campaign=merchant-site&gclid=CM_8sa2es7sCFccTpAodBxUAcA ... now i know it says steam iron....but before using it i throw all the water from the iron...that should not be an issue right 2013-12-15 22:06 ? 2013-12-15 22:07 wpwrak: yesterday you said that creating library (or was it a module) a pain in Kicad...found something that can ease the pain perhaps https://github.com/AdharLabs/Kicad-tools ? :) 2013-12-15 22:11 modules are a pain. but i already have a tool for that, fped (even wrote it myself :) 2013-12-15 22:11 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 22:12 fped is a 2D parametric CAD. so it's not just a "wizard" that knows a few typical patterns. 2013-12-15 22:12 ah yeah forgot that you mention that before :) 2013-12-15 22:12 lemme update the catalog ... 2013-12-15 22:14 hmmm, http://en.qi-hardware.com seems to be down, some kind of maintenance going on ? 2013-12-15 22:14 just noticed, too. no catalog update then :-( 2013-12-15 22:15 nicksydney: if you want to see the catalog, cd kicad-libs/modules; make catalog view 2013-12-15 22:15 all the things in there were drawn with fped 2013-12-15 22:16 i guess a "dry" steam iron is fine. of course, the flatter the surface, the better 2013-12-15 22:21 wpwrak: http://pastebin.com/x0XPpc0L ..segementation fault 2013-12-15 22:22 wpwrak: but the catalog.pdf is generated 2013-12-15 22:22 and i can view it 2013-12-15 22:23 cool there *LOADS* of footprints awesome ! 2013-12-15 22:24 hmm, maybe ubuntu broke xpdf again 2013-12-15 22:25 they're in the habit of doing that. i gave up on their clumsiness (this has been going on for years now) and just built it from source 2013-12-15 22:33 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 22:41 qi-hw is back 2013-12-15 22:42 and the sharism.cc domain has expired 2013-12-15 22:43 the modules catalog: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf 2013-12-15 22:43 lekernel: it did that eons ago 2013-12-15 22:44 2013-11-19 2013-12-15 22:44 (domain expiring, not just the server going down) 2013-12-15 22:45 even longer than i remembered. those eons flash past really quickly :) 2013-12-15 22:48 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-15 22:49 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 22:49 kyak has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-15 22:49 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 23:13 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-15 23:54 lopatinvp has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-15 23:57 lopatinvp has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 00:04 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-16 00:06 padval has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 00:06 padval has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 00:07 igabija has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 00:07 igabija has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 00:13 iidiot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 00:13 iidiot has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 00:52 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-16 01:08 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 01:12 jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-16 01:17 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 01:17 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-16 01:18 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-16 01:33 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 01:37 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-16 02:22 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-16 02:44 jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-16 02:53 nicksydney_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 02:54 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 02:55 wpwrak: after polishing and using alcohol there are major differences http://snag.gy/mzSrg.jpg 2013-12-16 02:56 wpwrak: this is the result http://ctrlv.in/270952 ...the photo paper still get stuck...this time i peel it off not using water 2013-12-16 02:57 wpwrak: looks like board was the culprit for the toner not sticking....will test again some more with different paper...the HP photo paper either not working OR i did not apply enough heat 2013-12-16 02:57 wpwrak: thoughts ? 2013-12-16 03:10 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 03:17 jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-16 03:57 already in the first picture, the board looks a lot nicer :) 2013-12-16 03:59 paper disintegrating is now the main issue. maybe you can control that through the paper cleaning process: applying alcohol to the paper's surface and scrubbing off the "jelly" before printing 2013-12-16 04:00 and yes, you may need to try different papers 2013-12-16 04:00 the amount of toner may also be a bit too low. can you tell your printer to use more toner ? maybe it's in some "draft" or "light" mode. 2013-12-16 04:01 you want it to use as much toner as possible. so no "economy", "draft", etc. 2013-12-16 06:03 wpwrak: wwhat battery do you use at the moment? 2013-12-16 06:04 i'm wondering about the form-factor 2013-12-16 06:06 right now it's CR2032 2013-12-16 06:06 are you worried that it may get too big or that it may be too small ? 2013-12-16 06:07 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 2013-12-16 06:12 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 06:17 no, i'm not worried about anything, just got curios :) 2013-12-16 06:17 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 06:18 when you first said "battery" in your e-mail, i imagined AAA, but then i realized it must something smaller 2013-12-16 06:36 AAA would make the case about 2 mm thicker. not sure how much it would affect component placement. it would certainly block one of the long sides 2013-12-16 06:38 my biggest concern with AAA would be leakage. those alkaline batteries always leak sooner or later, except if you use them a lot and thus notice immediately when they're about to expire. 2013-12-16 06:41 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-16 07:09 down for a quick reboot ... 2013-12-16 07:09 wpwrak has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-16 07:59 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 08:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 08:03 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 08:04 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 08:06 hmm. a usb-attached eval board starts acting up. the pc had a usb mishap earlier, so i reboot it. doesn't help. check cables and/or change port, all look well. usb problems get worse. then i swap the china crap brand usb hub. same result (!). try with/without external power. no change. swap power supplies. no change. connect board direcly to pc: all is well. 2013-12-16 08:06 connect board via openmoko debug board (which has a hub) to pc: all is well, too. 2013-12-16 08:07 the only explanation that would sort of make sense is that hub #1 died and hub #2 either died on the spot or was already dead on arrival. what are the odds ? 2013-12-16 08:31 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-16 08:38 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 08:40 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 09:47 good morning 2013-12-16 09:47 larsc_: hi there 2013-12-16 09:52 Jay7 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 09:54 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 09:59 morning 2013-12-16 10:01 wpwrak: another day another failure for my quest....no joy at getting perfect transfer :( 2013-12-16 10:02 wpwrak: tried HP photo paper again and clean with alcohol also..no joy....but i'm getting better transfer than before 2013-12-16 10:02 wpwrak: better transfer because the board is clean up properly but still the toner does not transfer completely and the paper still stuck on the board 2013-12-16 10:03 wpwrak: looks like it's going to be a steep learning curve 2013-12-16 10:04 larsc_: thinking about what to do next, do you think dma might work on the jz4740 usb chip ? 2013-12-16 10:05 I never saw it working, but the ingenic driver had at least some support for it 2013-12-16 10:05 So I think it is worth investigating 2013-12-16 10:06 hmmm, didn't notice anything related to dma in the ingenic driver 2013-12-16 10:06 larsc_: will take a look at that :) 2013-12-16 10:08 I was also wondering about the gcw-zero, since it has an ingenic mips processor 2013-12-16 10:09 larsc_ mth: are you still working on it ? 2013-12-16 10:10 mth and pcercuei do I think, I never did 2013-12-16 10:12 wpwrak: i have set the printing to 1200x1200 dpi 2013-12-16 10:16 apelete: there was some basic dma support at some point 2013-12-16 10:18 larsc_: don't know much about implementing dma, sounds like some fun so I'll certainly have a try :) 2013-12-16 10:18 for gcw-zero will see with mth and pcercuei when they come around then 2013-12-16 10:19 hopefully most of the dma stuff will be handled by the generic driver 2013-12-16 10:22 okay, so it should amounts to writing some more glue for dma and let the generic driver handle the heavy load, I guess 2013-12-16 10:24 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-16 10:26 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 12:50 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 12:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 13:07 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-16 13:09 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 13:18 nicksydney: printers often have a separate parameter to control the amount of toner. should have nothing to do with the resolution. 2013-12-16 13:20 wpwrak: there is a something called 'Adjustment' under 'Printer Options' .. http://snag.gy/Tt4Dl.jpg 2013-12-16 13:20 nicksydney: maybe visit a printer supplies shop and get a collection of papers. could be that your HP paper just happens to be unsuitable. one thing that's annoying with toner transfer is that it's hard to get the same materials at geographically distinct locations. 2013-12-16 13:21 wpwrak: the selection in that menu is 'Well Tampered (best)' [ this is what is selected at the moment ], 'Default', 'Accurate Screens', 'Standard' 2013-12-16 13:21 wpwrak: seems like need to go and buy different paper and also try those ebay papers 2013-12-16 13:21 (adjustment) that could be interesting. maybe try "default" and "standard" 2013-12-16 13:22 ah, what's there under "printing quality" ? 2013-12-16 13:22 and what under "media type" ? 2013-12-16 13:22 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 13:23 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 13:24 (printing quality) selection is only Draft and Normal 2013-12-16 13:25 (media type) Plain Paper, Bond, Bond Side 2, Labels, Light Weight Card, Recycled Paper 2013-12-16 13:26 wpwrak: another selection in Job Options -- http://snag.gy/DdFgF.jpg 2013-12-16 13:26 in 'Job Options' there is a selection Print Quality..perhaps need to change to High from Normal 2013-12-16 13:27 good idea 2013-12-16 13:27 is there anything you can set under "ink/toner levels" ? 2013-12-16 13:28 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-16 13:28 nothing under 'ink/toner levels' http://ctrlv.in/271077 2013-12-16 13:31 sniff :( 2013-12-16 13:31 anything under "settings" ? 2013-12-16 13:33 nothing...http://ctrlv.in/271078 2013-12-16 13:33 only some info 2013-12-16 13:33 about the printer 2013-12-16 13:34 draft is "low toner consumption" 2013-12-16 13:34 what i'm a bit worried about is the printer driver...because this printer does not have 'official' driver for Linux ... but windows....it has some driver for Red Hat but that also not 100% workable 2013-12-16 13:38 you also don't want "halftone", you should try to pick "black&white" 2013-12-16 13:38 that's always the problem with those low-cost printers. but you already have a ton of options, so the right ones may be there 2013-12-16 13:39 oh, and how are the results now: does the paper still disintegrate ? and where it doesn't, does the toner stay on the pcb ? 2013-12-16 13:40 yes the paper still disintegrate with the HP photo paper 2013-12-16 13:40 "ink/toner levels" are irrelevant, unless your cartridge is empty 2013-12-16 13:40 but what i notice now the paper really sticks to some part of the design ... not easily removed 2013-12-16 13:47 wpwrak: this is the last one i did 3 hours ago http://ctrlv.in/271080 ...this is using some type of plastic-y kind of brochure paper 2013-12-16 13:47 :) 2013-12-16 13:47 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i was hoping there was also an option to influence them (as in "consume faster") there. you never know what ideas GUI designers have :) 2013-12-16 13:48 wpwrak: this is the one the second time i did using the hp paper http://ctrlv.in/271081 2013-12-16 13:49 mmh, those brochure papers don't look promising. i don't think i managed to get something quite so bad with any paper :) 2013-12-16 13:49 trying my hands at any paper that looks plastic-y at the moment :)....need to go to office supplies shop to buy other photo paper 2013-12-16 13:51 i saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHInpm1AtKU and they are able to really get full blown 100% transfer...I just shook my head in disbelief 2013-12-16 13:51 yeah. that's how i did it. got about ten different papers and tried one after the other. well, the chinese paper i'm using now was actually recommended by friends. so they did the ten papers routine for me ;-) 2013-12-16 13:52 (hp 2nd try) no toner at all ? 2013-12-16 13:53 i removed the toner for the hp 2nd try with acetone...didn't take picture before i remove it :( 2013-12-16 13:54 nicksydney: feeding random platic stuff to laser printer or copier will be a sure way to damage it 2013-12-16 13:54 DocScrutinizer05: true....need to stop doing it ....as tomorrow onwards no more brochure paper :) 2013-12-16 13:55 wpwrak: check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxRE0k2D4w ..do you have any idea what kind of paper is that ? 2013-12-16 13:55 in that video the middle of the paper is transparent 2013-12-16 13:56 oh, when ironing, your stack is pcb - transfer paper - regular paper (optional_ - iron, right ? 2013-12-16 13:56 I'd try overhead foil for laser printers. It's true plastic, heat resistant, and usually has only one side that's matte so you can expect toner to stick firmly, while the other side is often high glossy and toner will come off easily 2013-12-16 13:57 so when you use that overhead foil the wrong way round, you might get a proper printout that actually transfers nicely and peels off 2013-12-16 13:57 when ironing pcb - transfer paper - iron 2013-12-16 13:58 nicksydney: (GSxRE0k2D4w) interesting. he's doing it all "wrong" but it still works :) 2013-12-16 13:59 DocScrutinizer05: so the overhead project plastic paper does work ? 2013-12-16 13:59 DocScrutinizer05: i think i never heard of that approach. but yes, may be worth a try 2013-12-16 13:59 nicksydney: you're at the bottom of a deep pit. whatever you do, it can only get better :-) 2013-12-16 13:59 i have a transparent paper .. can't remember what it was called..bought it from art and craft shop...tried that yesterday but it melt when under iron 2013-12-16 14:00 wpwrak: thanks for the motivation :)...ahhahaha 2013-12-16 14:00 >>The vid refers to the paper as OHP. This may mean "overhead projector" paper. I think this refers to the plastic transparencies used for overhead projectors.<< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxRE0k2D4w&noredirect=1 2013-12-16 14:00 nicksydney: with transparent paper, make sure that it is intended for laser printers ! 2013-12-16 14:00 it's demotivating at the moment for me :( 2013-12-16 14:01 wpwrak, DocScrutinizer05: will this do ...http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Projectors/Overhead-Projectors/ACPP100C20 ? 2013-12-16 14:02 would it better bet for me to get overhead transparencies or photo paper ? 2013-12-16 14:02 I think I never heard of any other approach than OHP, for toner transfer 2013-12-16 14:03 nicksydney: yeah, you're having an unusually large amount of trouble there :( by now you should already have reasonably good transfers. maybe nothing yet that you'd actually want to etch, given that anelok is a fairly demanding board, but you should be worrying about things like microfractures by now, not struggling to get at least half of the design to stick to the board 2013-12-16 14:03 but well, sometimes murphy chooses to become someone's special friend :) 2013-12-16 14:04 wpwrak: i think it's the chuky world of murphy that choose to be my special friend :) 2013-12-16 14:04 and of course toner brand and build is a particularly essential and important factor in this game 2013-12-16 14:05 that apollo OHP looks good. "most office copiers". 2013-12-16 14:06 DocScrutinizer05: yes, some printers just suck. the one nick has gotten had been mentioned as suitable, though 2013-12-16 14:06 and it's the original toner 2013-12-16 14:07 nicksydney: yes, that OHP looks good. Though I'd try to get one that has a printing and a non-printing side 2013-12-16 14:07 if such stuff still exists 2013-12-16 14:07 nicksydney: if all else fails, maybe there are some hobbyists in your area who get together on weekends ? someone applying a known-to-work (even with different materials) process may be able to help you progress faster 2013-12-16 14:09 wpwrak: yeah....in the local hackerspace...few of them have tried using this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Press-n-Peel-Blue-PCB-Transfer-Paper-Film-Etch-Circuit-Boards-Jewelry-5-Sheets-/160825024266 and they said it works 2013-12-16 14:09 wpwrak: but locally that kind of blue paper each cost $35 :( 2013-12-16 14:09 wpwrak: if i have to order will have to wait for few weeks :( 2013-12-16 14:10 (hackerspace) they all are using that blue paper ? nobody went looking for something local ? 2013-12-16 14:10 or, local-and-not-evilly-expensive 2013-12-16 14:11 wpwrak: most of them now fabricate .... using service like seeedstudio as it's cheaper for most of them :) 2013-12-16 14:13 DocScrutinizer05: btw, congratulations on crossing 50 kEUR ! soon you'll be able to just buy some fab to make those hell-to-source parts for you :) 2013-12-16 14:13 nicksydney: bah, sissies 2013-12-16 14:13 DocScrutinizer05: congrats ! 2013-12-16 14:15 wpwrak: how long normally you iron the board for ? 2013-12-16 14:16 nicksydney: this press-n-peel stuff looks very good. i was already wondering if I should suggest siliconized paper (or that bread packaging paper, that's pretty hard and glossy), but I didn't dare to suggest it without trying it first. This press-n-peel stuff seems identical principle though 2013-12-16 14:17 nicksydney: long enough to heat the PCB so it properly takes the molten platic of the toner 2013-12-16 14:17 plastic* 2013-12-16 14:18 DocScrutinizer05: does 4-5minutes sounds long enough ? maybe that's the culprit of the problem for my case ? 2013-12-16 14:18 sure! 2013-12-16 14:19 just make sure you properly cleaned and scrubbed the PCB copper to make it matte 2013-12-16 14:20 chalk abrassive cleaner power is ideal for that job 2013-12-16 14:20 nicksydney: about 60-120 seconds (per side) 2013-12-16 14:21 you should place the PCB on a board or something, so no heat dissipates to the marble desk ;-) 2013-12-16 14:21 DocScrutinizer05: matte ? once you get rid of all the oxide, it's shiny :) 2013-12-16 14:21 yeah, don't iron on that copper table ;-) 2013-12-16 14:21 then you did sth wrong 2013-12-16 14:22 the trick is to properly roughen the copper surface 2013-12-16 14:22 will miriads of microscopic scars 2013-12-16 14:23 DocScrutinizer05: the result works very well :) and yes, it's roughened. with small grooves from the steel wool. maybe your process works at an even smaller scale. 2013-12-16 14:23 echetwer has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 14:23 lekernel has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 14:23 mirko has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 14:23 s/will/with/ 2013-12-16 14:23 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "with miriads of microscopic scars" 2013-12-16 14:24 s/mir/myr/ 2013-12-16 14:24 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "with myriads of microscopic scars" 2013-12-16 14:24 ok gentleman...thanks for the help ....will try again tomorrow..now time to hit the bed and dream of my toner transfer works 100% .. .see you all tomorrow :) 2013-12-16 14:28 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 14:30 echetwer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 14:31 transferful dreams ! :) 2013-12-16 14:31 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 14:58 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 15:03 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:13 epic how jolla made a mess out of shipping their phone 2013-12-16 15:14 qi-bot3 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:14 nickoe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 15:14 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:14 bartbes_ has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 15:14 nickoe has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:14 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:14 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:14 bartbes has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-16 15:14 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:15 qi-bot3 is now known as qi-bot 2013-12-16 15:15 and best of all: they "forgot" (SIC!) the flasher, so you can't flash clean image when you ruined it. Suggested SOP: send to Jolla headquarters, Norway, to get it reflashed 2013-12-16 15:15 incredible 2013-12-16 15:16 of curse warranty get conveniently voided when you enable "developer mode", so you pay for that idiotic procedure of shipping a device 3000km to get it reflashed to factory image 2013-12-16 15:17 even more conveniently Noway isn't in EU, so you pay VAT. TWICE! 2013-12-16 15:18 24% Nowegian VAT for sending to Jolla, plus 19% for them sending it back to EU 2013-12-16 15:18 almost cheaper to get a new device 2013-12-16 15:18 ROTFL 2013-12-16 15:19 the more funny are the prices on ebay. Those bricks go for 200% 2013-12-16 15:20 250% even 2013-12-16 15:21 I guess that's the best use I can make of this annoyance 2013-12-16 15:22 sounds like fun :) 2013-12-16 15:23 ooh, forgot to mention: they sent the shipping notification 6h (as usual) after fedex didn't find the entrance to my house (as usual). But with very unusual scientific notation tracking number, of course with only 6 digits mantissa 2013-12-16 15:23 but you can normally avoid taxes on warranty returns. of course, the bureaucracy may be more expensive than what you save. 2013-12-16 15:24 and if there's VAT into .no, that would be on them anyway 2013-12-16 15:25 while for the cheesy t-shirt, they sent the tracking info like 3 months before shipping, so no way I could#ve cought the actual shipment 2013-12-16 15:25 well, they won't pay any VAT 2013-12-16 15:25 they will charge YOU for that 2013-12-16 15:25 plus processing/labor 2013-12-16 15:26 mind you, warranty void when you want to use the device as intended 2013-12-16 15:26 bartbes_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:26 they say that they charge you VAT for that ? 2013-12-16 15:26 hint: you need "developer mode" to get a xterm 2013-12-16 15:26 perhaps you should just send it back and ask for a refund 2013-12-16 15:26 if they're such assholes then they don't deserve better 2013-12-16 15:27 hah, they already sold a t-shirt for 100EUR to me 2013-12-16 15:27 no refund for that 2013-12-16 15:27 nickoe__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:27 nickoe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 15:27 bartbes has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 15:27 well, if you buy such fancy t-shirts :) 2013-12-16 15:28 nah, I'll sell that shit on ebay 2013-12-16 15:28 not even worth disassembling 2013-12-16 15:28 qualcom snapdragon :-/ 2013-12-16 15:28 eek 2013-12-16 15:28 indeed 2013-12-16 15:31 no schematics, no docs 2013-12-16 15:31 no firmware to reflash 2013-12-16 15:31 do I need to know what's inside such brick? surely not 2013-12-16 15:32 their sailfish OS is closed crap as well 2013-12-16 15:32 "we're a small shop and we have proven that we can make phones that suck just as much as the ones from the big players" 2013-12-16 15:32 lovely :) 2013-12-16 15:33 thought at least their OS was reasonably friendly 2013-12-16 15:33 yeah, absolutely friendly SDK to develop QtM apps 2013-12-16 15:34 you're not supposed to do anything different than this path, when you want to develop for jollaphone 2013-12-16 15:34 the GUI is closed AIUI. At least that was open on maemo5 2013-12-16 15:34 (see hildon desktop) 2013-12-16 15:36 verbatim: 2013-12-16 15:36 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:12] We have focused so much on getting the product ready and in your hands that our communication towards you hasn't been enough. We learned and we will improve this in the future. 2013-12-16 15:36 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:12] Thank you for your patience.<< 2013-12-16 15:36 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:03:48] srsly 2013-12-16 15:36 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:04:01] they were hard at work developing the device for 2 years? 2013-12-16 15:37 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:06:30] I am really wondering waht they have spent all this time doing 2013-12-16 15:37 [Fri 13 December 2013] [06:06:36] really 2013-12-16 15:42 DocScrutinizer05: here's a good example to draft a rant from (keep reading, the best is at the end): http://www.chucklorre.com/index-2hm.php?p=429 2013-12-16 15:46 owell, I guess they are used to harder rants from my side meanwhile 2013-12-16 15:46 ;-) 2013-12-16 15:47 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:48 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1394340#post1394340 nad next are friendly ones 2013-12-16 15:48 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:49 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:49 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:49 mldr_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:50 and I currently have enough "battles", e.g. with FSF/RMS 2013-12-16 15:51 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1396903#post1396903 2013-12-16 15:51 jurting_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:52 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:53 rodgort has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-16 15:53 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:54 rodgort` has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:54 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:54 mldr has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:54 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:54 kristian1aul has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2013-12-16 15:55 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:55 kristianpaul has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-16 15:55 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 15:56 jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:56 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-16 15:57 DocScrutinizer05: here's a good example to draft a rant from (keep reading, the best is at the end): http://www.chucklorre.com/index-2hm.php?p=429 2013-12-16 15:57 well written rant indeed, very funny :) 2013-12-16 16:02 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2013-12-16 16:02 DocScrutinizer06 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:02 DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05 2013-12-16 16:02 sanderr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-16 16:03 sanderr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:11 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:16 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-16 16:16 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:18 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:18 pcercuei has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 uwe_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 Guest71516 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 rodgort has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 xiangfu_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 kanzure has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 mth has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 zrafa has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 jow_laptop has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 ysionneau has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-16 16:18 ffio has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-16 16:19 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 ysionneau has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 zrafa has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 Guest71516 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 uwe_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:21 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:23 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:23 kanzure has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-16 16:27 nickoe__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-16 16:29 nickoe has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:31 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:32 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 16:33 viric has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 2013-12-16 16:35 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 17:23 deepmans has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 17:26 deepmans has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 17:34 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-16 18:04 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 18:29 pertsevov has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 18:30 pertsevov has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 18:47 mafufa has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 18:49 mafufa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-16 19:00 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-16 19:06 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-16 19:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 19:10 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 19:28 jurting_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-16 19:43 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-16 19:55 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 20:48 morning...no transfer toner dream last night :( ... another day in the toner transfer world :) 2013-12-16 20:50 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-16 21:01 jurting_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 21:07 you should have said "i love the smell of toner in the morning, the smell of victory" 2013-12-16 21:07 zrafa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-16 21:19 wpwrak: too positive :) 2013-12-16 21:19 wpwrak: need some negative so the current will flow .. hahaha 2013-12-16 21:25 put a nice big sledgehammer under the table, so that boards/paper/printer will know what happens to them if they don't give their very best 2013-12-16 21:36 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 21:43 wpwrak: nice one :) 2013-12-16 22:06 mirko_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 22:21 lekernel_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 22:21 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-16 22:21 apelete: we're still working on the Zero, although it's a bit quiet at the moment 2013-12-16 22:23 mth: ah great, was thinking about buying one and get my hands in the kernel code 2013-12-16 22:23 please do :p 2013-12-16 22:23 still have some work to do on that front ? 2013-12-16 22:23 plenty 2013-12-16 22:25 mth pcercuei_: what would you need help with in the gcw-zero kernel ? 2013-12-16 22:25 USB OTG has to be fixed 2013-12-16 22:25 the SD card driver is a POS 2013-12-16 22:25 gpio-keys triggers a kernel panic 2013-12-16 22:26 what do you mean by POS ? 2013-12-16 22:26 piece of sh*t 2013-12-16 22:26 :D 2013-12-16 22:26 we have no power management, no suspend, 2013-12-16 22:26 ok, plenty to do indeed :) 2013-12-16 22:26 the IPU driver wumpus was working on could be moved to use remoteproc, 2013-12-16 22:26 I meant VPU* 2013-12-16 22:26 I cleaned up the probe part of the SD (mmc) driver, but the part that does the I/O is still a mess 2013-12-16 22:26 the IPU driver is missing 2013-12-16 22:27 the audio driver could be modified to use a DMA engine, like larsc_ did for the JZ4740 2013-12-16 22:27 the video driver could be moved to DRM+KMS 2013-12-16 22:28 the acceleration sensor needs a driver; so far we only accessed it by i2c from user space 2013-12-16 22:29 so there is plenty to do 2013-12-16 22:29 mth pcercuei_: great, sounds like fun aplenty indeed :) 2013-12-16 22:29 definitely 2013-12-16 22:29 btw, if you want to help, I can give you something to fix right now :D 2013-12-16 22:29 do you have some place where you keep track of all these issues ? 2013-12-16 22:29 IRC ;) 2013-12-16 22:30 yeah mostly 2013-12-16 22:30 we have an issue tracker on github, but there is very little entered there 2013-12-16 22:31 pcercuei_ mth: right now still has something to fix in the musb patches for the nanonote, but I already sign up to be noticed when gcw is back in stock at dragonbox.de 2013-12-16 22:32 I have an issue with gpio-keys, it triggers a kernel panic under a certain condition, could you investigate that? I don't have a serial line so I can't get the trace 2013-12-16 22:32 I believe the Nanonote has one? ... 2013-12-16 22:32 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-16 22:33 the NanoNote doesn't use gpio-keys afaik, it has a keyboard matrix instead 2013-12-16 22:33 meh, of course, forgot about it 2013-12-16 22:34 pcercuei_ mth: haven't got the device yet, but can I browse that issue tracker you set up ? 2013-12-16 22:35 any other source of information beside this channel and the code on github by the way ? 2013-12-16 22:35 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-16 22:35 not really :) 2013-12-16 22:35 https://github.com/gcwnow/linux/issues but it turns out it is completely empty 2013-12-16 22:36 anyway, the code is one level up from there 2013-12-16 22:37 there is a #gcw channel where users and devs hang out 2013-12-16 22:39 ok, great. anyway, I guess I will be working on the nanonote until I get the gcw, then we can resume this discussion 2013-12-16 22:41 mth pcercuei_: I was wondering lately if the gcw might be useful to learn new tricks, it seems I'm all set now, thanks :) 2013-12-16 22:42 yep, definitely 2013-12-16 22:47 wpwrak: love it http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/on-battery.jpg .... hardcore ;) 2013-12-16 22:47 wpwrak: that picture is my motivation to keep going :) 2013-12-16 22:52 hehe :) 2013-12-16 22:54 the funny thing is that it's not even particularly good. the case was basically coming apart when i took it, because all the pressure went against the unsupported bottom, so it opened a bit, the display fell out of its space (you can see that it is slightly angled), and the case surface is about 1.5 mm above the wheel :) 2013-12-16 23:06 lekernel_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-16 23:19 wpwrak: still better than what i'm doing :) ... hahahah 2013-12-16 23:33 just found about about "flame polishing" acrylic. fascinating. 2013-12-16 23:34 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-17 00:02 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-17 00:07 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-17 00:09 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-17 00:10 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 00:27 jurting_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 00:40 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-17 00:45 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 00:50 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 01:25 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-17 01:46 pcercuei_ has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-17 02:28 nicksydney: and, is it time for the Victory Gin yet ? 2013-12-17 02:51 wpwrak: nah....will go back and fight with it tongih 2013-12-17 03:03 xiangfu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-17 03:04 wpwrak: another good news i got ...someone from local hackerspace is going to give me 1 of those blue peel paper..so going to pick it up either tonight or tomorrow 2013-12-17 03:05 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 03:14 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-17 03:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 04:50 great ! that that's one variable less to worry about 2013-12-17 05:50 ffio has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-17 05:59 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 06:17 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-17 06:26 wpwrak, DocScrutinizer05 : i'm sure you have heard about this https://github.com/Kwamecorp/Fairphone ? 2013-12-17 06:26 yep 2013-12-17 06:26 http://fairphone.com/ 2013-12-17 06:26 DocScrutinizer05: what are your thoughts ? 2013-12-17 06:27 much hype about nithing. The phone itself is basically a hoax, the ideology and the pushing they do on political layer is great 2013-12-17 06:27 fairphone can't use fairer chips than e.g Neo900 does 2013-12-17 06:28 they offer repair instructions and spare parts. OK so do we 2013-12-17 06:29 They claim they got "fair Coltan" but how do they make chip manufacturers use that fair rare earths they claim to have sources? 2013-12-17 06:29 they maybe use recycled plastic for their new case. We recycle the case ;-D 2013-12-17 06:30 they don't manufacture in FoxCon China. We manufacture in Bavaria 2013-12-17 06:30 :)....fair argument.....when it comes to business in China..anything to please the customer they will do even though they don't do it at the back room :) 2013-12-17 06:30 i think they're not trying to be "fair" on the rare earths. there's only about three things where they actually selected a "fair" supplier. 2013-12-17 06:31 will be interesting if MediaTek is willing to release the source to them and thus to the public 2013-12-17 06:32 haha 2013-12-17 06:32 sourced of what ? 2013-12-17 06:33 kernel 2013-12-17 06:35 okay, more likely than other sources :) 2013-12-17 06:36 they won't release the video or graphic :) 2013-12-17 06:36 it's set in stone 2013-12-17 06:36 I think it's a featurephone with a nice DSDS MTK chipset that also runs the complete GUI. Not checked, just guess 2013-12-17 06:37 naw, it's a smartphone 2013-12-17 06:38 "Fairphone | A seriously cool smartphone. Putting social values first." 2013-12-17 06:38 DocScrutinizer05: stupid question....neo900 could run Android for that matter right since you will have all the different drivers ? 2013-12-17 06:39 * nicksydney duck behind desk because talking about Android in a non-Android channel :) 2013-12-17 06:40 I think the replicant project will pick up on Neo900 as soon as they get their hands on it. AIUI they already ported replicant to GTA04 2013-12-17 06:40 see neo900.org 2013-12-17 06:41 how the component hunt going by the way ? 2013-12-17 06:41 http://neo900.org/#about >>Most importantly, the Neo900 is an open platform, carrying on in the tradition of the Openmoko project. Neo900 will support all operating systems available for GTA04 (QtMoko, SHR, Debian, Replicant, ...)...<< 2013-12-17 06:41 DM3730 is the same used in BeagleBoard 2013-12-17 06:42 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-17 06:43 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 06:43 "price of motherboard w/o case expected to be in the 500-700 EUR range" --> wow.... I'm out of cash :( ... maybe one day 2013-12-17 06:46 chicken/egg problem: low quantities to build cause low qty of components to source and high fraction of fixed costs per device thus causing high price/unit. High price per unit -> low number of customers, thus low qty of devices to build 2013-12-17 06:47 economy of scale in play 2013-12-17 06:47 :) 2013-12-17 06:48 and you know about the margins that players like Samsung and even Apple are making their money from? 2013-12-17 06:49 we CANNOT compete with them, not even same league 2013-12-17 06:49 DocScrutinizer05: true...wonder if can create the pcb with my toner transfer :) 2013-12-17 06:49 we can't get the components for the amount they ask for a complete unit to sell 2013-12-17 06:50 wpwrak: i can't even get anelok to toner transfer properly and now i'm thinking of toner transferring neo9000.......now that's ambitious :) 2013-12-17 06:50 the likes of us are happy enough if we can get all the components ... 2013-12-17 06:50 heck we are happy when we can get the components at all that they simply get built to order for their product 2013-12-17 06:50 great minds things alike :) 2013-12-17 06:51 s/things/think/ 2013-12-17 06:51 wpwrak meant: "great minds think alike :)" 2013-12-17 06:51 DocScrutinizer05: how you solder the BGA chip ? 2013-12-17 06:51 vapor phase 2013-12-17 06:51 nicksydney: yeah, toner-transferring a 6 (?) layer board would be a bit of a challenge ;-) 2013-12-17 06:51 DocScrutinizer05: it's hard enough soldering smd component can't imagine BGA 2013-12-17 06:51 wpwrak: crap...it's 6 layers ? ...damn ! 2013-12-17 06:52 you can't solder the modem any other way 2013-12-17 06:52 DocScrutinizer05: vapor phase ? now that's something i need to learn from you oh great jedi :) 2013-12-17 06:52 Neo900? is 8 layer at least 2013-12-17 06:52 iirc 2013-12-17 06:52 1 layer is hard enough for me :) 2013-12-17 06:53 nicksydney: it's really nice - just use a pot with a boiling liquid that has a boiling temperature of 235°C 2013-12-17 06:53 then dump the PCB with components into the vapor 2013-12-17 06:54 doesn't the liquid vapor interfere with the solder ? 2013-12-17 06:54 simple theory, expensive and complicated to do in real life 2013-12-17 06:54 i meant with the solder paste 2013-12-17 06:54 no, it's a special hydrocarbon-halogenide afaik 2013-12-17 06:55 it even serves as inert gas, so no need to flood the reflow oven with nitrogen 2013-12-17 06:56 reflow temperature profiles are a major problem with vapor phase 2013-12-17 06:56 you know, the whole process doesn't like too steep temperature gradients 2013-12-17 06:58 and of course you don't want to make that expensive reflow-liquid evaporate into the air all the time, so the actual "machine" is quite complicated compared to e.g. ar "simple" IR radiation reflow line 2013-12-17 06:58 IR & hot air 2013-12-17 06:58 sounds like not an easy setup 2013-12-17 06:58 funny detail: the liquid is also used as blood-substitute 2013-12-17 06:59 yeah, it#s not exactly easy. So we let solder ;-) 2013-12-17 07:00 there are companies that do nothing but vapor phase soldering the whole day long 2013-12-17 07:00 ;-) 2013-12-17 07:03 http://www.torenko.com/pdf/Todays-Vapor-Phase-Soldering-Tech-Paper.pdf 2013-12-17 07:04 thanks...will read that 2013-12-17 07:12 http://www.smta.org/chapters/files/Arizona-Sonora_IBL_SMTA_AZ_Expo_2012Dec4.pdf also nice 2013-12-17 07:17 actually I think VP and particularly SVP is the smartest thing since sliced bread 2013-12-17 07:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 07:55 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 08:14 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 08:25 apelete: I think jz4740_musb_set_vbus() tries to do too much 2013-12-17 08:31 no surprise 2013-12-17 08:32 *_set_vbus() is pretty specific for the particular circuit/platform 2013-12-17 08:32 and I don't know if ben can do it at all 2013-12-17 08:39 apelete: what am I missing? Why are things working even tough we do not provide a musb_hdrc_config? 2013-12-17 08:43 DocScrutinizer05: since we only have gadget mode the function will only ever be called with vbus_enable = false 2013-12-17 08:43 so there is actually nothing to do in there 2013-12-17 08:45 larsc_: musb_hdrc_config is provided in platform.c, that's why I didn't thought at first about writing the fix the way balbi suggested 2013-12-17 08:46 ah, ok 2013-12-17 08:46 larsc_: I was also thinking about the usefulness of jz4740_musb_set_vbus(), not sure if we actually need it 2013-12-17 08:46 larsc_: musb_hdrc_config -> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/qi-kernel/source/commit/03232dd185dd23d49a8e658a46172ea0c16d9808/ 2013-12-17 08:48 I'm going to make a couple of minor changes to the driver if that is ok with you 2013-12-17 08:50 sure, no problem. 2013-12-17 08:51 larsc_: was going to define musb_hdrc_config in glue layer code to add a quirk flag as balbi advised, but you'll certainly come up with a better way to fix this 2013-12-17 08:54 larsc_: right 2013-12-17 08:56 larsc_: anyway I wonder how upstream gonna handle the extreme platform dependency in *_set_vbus(). I don't see how to implement that in a platform-agnostic way, not even with the most evolved devicetree you could think of 2013-12-17 09:15 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2013-12-17 09:36 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 09:39 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-17 10:01 whitequark, http://irclog.whitequark.org/ is 502 Bad Gateway 2013-12-17 10:44 uh oh 2013-12-17 10:45 lekernel: fixed. unattended-upgrades decided to upgrade mysql, and irclogger doesn't like when "server goes away" 2013-12-17 10:45 thankfully the logger bot is protected from that 2013-12-17 10:45 apelete: do you have a datasheet for a device with a full blown musb controller? 2013-12-17 10:47 DocScrutinizer05: your nova thor thingy also has a musb controller 2013-12-17 10:47 larsc_: only have jz4740 datasheet, why ? 2013-12-17 10:48 I want to lookup the meaning of the devctrl bits 2013-12-17 10:48 there are a couple of other places where it is read 2013-12-17 10:49 and I think we should fake the value as it would look like if the device is in gadget mode 2013-12-17 10:52 MY nova thor thingy?? :-o 2013-12-17 10:53 I know what's in (Nova)Thor, I had the pleasure to debug the sources 2013-12-17 10:53 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-17 10:53 larsc_: tried something like that yesterday night, that's why I was thinking about modifying musb_regs.h: didn't find any reg in jz4740 that might be read as devctl 2013-12-17 10:53 but maybe I overlooked something then :-/ 2013-12-17 10:53 the closed sources, I may add 2013-12-17 10:54 apelete: we should not have any #ifdef CONFIG_JZ4740 anywhere 2013-12-17 10:54 that's really bad style 2013-12-17 10:54 DocScrutinizer05: 'your's' because you worked with it 2013-12-17 10:55 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 12:25 larsc_: agreed, #ifdef makes the code hard to maintain, just didn't think about using platform_data at first 2013-12-17 12:26 anyway, I want to add the quirk flag by using "board_data" member of struct musb_hdrc_platform_data -> http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/include/linux/usb/musb.h#L98 2013-12-17 12:27 but I can't firgure out how to access the member from within the musb_gadget.c code 2013-12-17 12:28 larsc_: any idea ? 2013-12-17 12:49 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 12:52 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: usb: musb-jz4740: Don't manually free device managed resources (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/ee7dcba 2013-12-17 12:52 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: usb: musb-jz4740: Move musb_hdrc_config to the glue driver (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/65b33a2 2013-12-17 12:52 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: usb: musb-jz4740: Move jz4740 specific fifo config to the jz4740 glue (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/8187ff7 2013-12-17 12:52 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: usb: musb-jz4740: Mask host mode only IRQ bits (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/fbeaeeb 2013-12-17 12:52 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: usb: musb-jz4740: Remove set_vbus callback (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/af3548b 2013-12-17 13:01 apelete: so the gadget itself has this is_otg flag 2013-12-17 13:01 which is currently always set to 1 2013-12-17 13:01 I think we should set that to either 1 or 0 depending on the config 2013-12-17 13:01 and then use the is_otg flag to check whether we should access the devctl register 2013-12-17 13:11 larsc_: you mean fix musb_gadget.c to access devctl depending on is_otg flag ? 2013-12-17 13:12 (rephrasing it just to be sure I get it correctly, hope you don't mind) 2013-12-17 13:14 yes 2013-12-17 13:14 more or less 2013-12-17 13:15 okay great, will do that on top of the changes you just pushed and submit the patches again 2013-12-17 13:16 larsc_: thanks for cleaning up the code, looks much better with everything isolated from the musb driver code 2013-12-17 13:20 hm, just for fun enabled dma, seems to work 2013-12-17 13:22 wow 2013-12-17 13:22 just netcat'ed /dev/zero and I get 1MB/s at 50% cpu usage 2013-12-17 13:22 is this good or bad? 2013-12-17 13:23 that's rather high 2013-12-17 13:23 lets see how much I can get in pio mode 2013-12-17 13:27 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 2013-12-17 13:27 the same actually 2013-12-17 13:31 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 13:31 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-17 13:34 no improvement using dma then ? 2013-12-17 13:35 it is probably not using dma 2013-12-17 13:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 13:37 ah "musb-hdrc musb-hdrc.0.auto: No DMA interrupt line" 2013-12-17 13:39 the problem though is that the controller uses the same IRQ line for both 2013-12-17 13:41 both what? 2013-12-17 13:41 dma and controller 2013-12-17 13:51 even with that fixed still no dma 2013-12-17 13:55 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 13:56 the driver never seems to call usb_gadget_map_request 2013-12-17 13:57 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-17 14:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 14:14 hm, it's trying to do dma, but the buffers are all unaligend ... 2013-12-17 14:16 argh... 2013-12-17 14:17 skb_reserve(skb, NET_IP_ALIGN); 2013-12-17 14:18 and IP_ALIGN is 2 2013-12-17 14:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 14:28 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 14:34 so with dma cpu usage is down to almost idle, while I still get 1MB/s 2013-12-17 14:34 hm or maybe not 2013-12-17 14:40 1 MB/s for high-speed device ? 2013-12-17 14:46 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 14:48 I guess 2013-12-17 14:50 the problem really is that the dma address has to be 32bit aligned 2013-12-17 14:50 this does not mix well with networking 2013-12-17 14:53 larsc_, I have a crash on jz-3.12: http://pastebin.com/W5GBmAwX 2013-12-17 14:54 but I get spammed with this so I can't see the kernel panic info 2013-12-17 14:54 enable CONFIG_KALLSYMS 2013-12-17 14:55 larsc_: you should still be able to at least speed up inbound. 2013-12-17 14:55 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 14:55 allright 2013-12-17 14:56 wpwrak: that NET_IP_ALIGN is on the receive path 2013-12-17 15:04 here's with CONFIG_KALLSYMS enabled: http://pastebin.com/BH6nANJe 2013-12-17 15:04 this time I did save the whole log so I have the beginning of the crash log too 2013-12-17 15:06 larsc_: well, the choice would depend on what is worse: PIO or copying. right ? 2013-12-17 15:15 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 15:22 pcercuei: looks like a problem with your input driver 2013-12-17 15:22 wpwrak: well pio is copying 2013-12-17 15:22 the buffers are quite large I think 2013-12-17 15:22 and the bus is not that slow 2013-12-17 15:23 larsc_, not really "my" input driver, the driver is gpio-keys, present in mainline Linux for ages 2013-12-17 15:23 PIO is copying but different from DMA + memcpy. maybe better, maybe worse. i no idea which :) 2013-12-17 15:24 I did report it on the mailing list 2013-12-17 15:24 wpwrak: I'd assume there is not much difference on the jz4740 between the two 2013-12-17 15:24 pcercuei: the report was not very complete 2013-12-17 15:25 I mean the snippet you posted doesn't even compile 2013-12-17 15:25 of course it doesn't compile, it's an example 2013-12-17 15:26 also, it's kinda hard to include a crash trace when you don't have a serial line :/ 2013-12-17 15:27 thanksfully I could reproduce it on a device that has one 2013-12-17 15:27 the bug looks like a NULL pointer deref though 2013-12-17 15:29 its not clear where though 2013-12-17 15:31 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-17 15:42 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 15:45 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 16:05 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-17 16:06 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 16:39 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:02 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:05 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 17:15 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 17:15 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:21 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:24 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:24 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:25 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-17 17:25 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-17 17:30 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-17 17:32 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 17:37 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-17 17:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 18:05 ffio has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-17 18:34 _whitelogger has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 18:40 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-17 21:13 morning all 2013-12-17 21:13 wpwrak: what's new > 2013-12-17 21:15 surprisingly little. even more surprisingly, i still have power, unlike about half of the rest of the city. 2013-12-17 21:22 wpwrak: is there a strike or something in power plant ? 2013-12-17 21:23 mirko_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-17 21:24 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 21:24 mirko_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 21:24 "something". like a decade of not investing into the infrastructure. and then something completely unexpected happens. a rare meteorological phenomeneon called "summer" 2013-12-17 21:27 here's a little rant of mine: http://www.argentinaindependent.com/currentaffairs/argentina-receives-energy-from-uruguay-amid-blackouts/#comment-205148 2013-12-17 21:27 mirko_ has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-17 21:27 mirko has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-17 21:27 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 21:32 mirko has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-17 21:32 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 21:33 odsvirov has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 21:39 nickoe: maybe we should take this here ? 2013-12-17 21:39 nickoe: e.g., the scripting that depends on eeschema i can recall without looking is schhist and the schematics symbol catalog of kicad-libs 2013-12-17 21:40 wpwrak: yes, I understand, and that I guess, is because the pcb is what specefies more or less everything we are interrested in exporting to other formats 2013-12-17 21:40 wpwrak: but the schhist is a nice thing for sometimes 2013-12-17 21:41 nickoe: while pcbnew is in: printing the layout for toner transfer, cnc-milling boards, "photo-realistic" layout preview, component positions for CAD and case 2013-12-17 21:43 maybe we could still open schematics made with today's kicad with an older eeschema, one that has the command-line patches ? 2013-12-17 21:43 pcbnew has changed a lot, especially when it comes to the file format, but i think eeschema is pretty much the same (so far) 2013-12-17 21:46 odsvirov has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-17 21:46 sounds possible for some time in to the future yes 2013-12-17 22:00 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-17 22:10 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 22:32 [commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb_gadget: use is_otg flag to set gadget peripheral mode on reset (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/f715ea4 2013-12-17 22:33 larsc_: fix is working thanks to this previous one: 2013-12-17 22:33 http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=fd3923a9904f34d5472134358d87f454a288fc45 2013-12-17 22:34 larsc_: what do you think about it ? (tested already, I'm squashing all the commits including yours to send a patch v2) 2013-12-17 23:21 ysionneau has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-17 23:21 ysionneau has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-17 23:53 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-18 00:01 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-18 00:37 freespac1 is now known as freespace 2013-12-18 00:51 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-18 00:53 wpwrak: not beer at 35°, but fridge that works absorber with gas heating (some even can take candle for power source ;-D ) 2013-12-18 00:53 during daytime probably even solar power will work to freeze your beer, the more sun the colder 2013-12-18 00:54 you find those critters in mobile homes aka campers usually 2013-12-18 00:55 nice design: not a single moving part (except door) 2013-12-18 00:55 so i guess that's what you call "solid state" 2013-12-18 00:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator 2013-12-18 01:10 heh, i know that type. my parents had one. "early years of the 20th century" bah, well into the 1980es 2013-12-18 01:11 solar panels are risky, though. we get rather strong winds around here. and intense hailstorms. 2013-12-18 01:12 so fixed solar panels would get smashed about 3 times per year. unless you make them considerably stronger than a car roof. movable panels could become victims of those little tornados. 2013-12-18 01:13 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-18 01:13 well... do the math. around here if your building is big enough and you need enough thermal power even small gas motors with exhaust power reuse make sense economically 2013-12-18 01:15 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-18 01:17 yeah, most blackouts are well below 24 hours. and the big ones are highly clustered. so a permanent installation doesn't really make sense. 2013-12-18 01:18 i see... well.. buy a high powered generator, sit it out on gas 2013-12-18 01:18 or is there a reliable natural gas grid? 2013-12-18 01:20 possibly. so far it was reliable but i don't know at what point it may fail, too 2013-12-18 01:21 and no, i wouldn't get a BIG one. i'm not strong enough to move around a 100 kg machine 2013-12-18 01:21 besides, the bigger ones are shit quality 2013-12-18 01:22 whis one looks nice, though: http://www.yamahaef2000is.com/ 2013-12-18 01:22 alas, cost almost 3x as much as a cheap one with similar characteristics 2013-12-18 01:25 big is from my perspective 5-15kw 2013-12-18 01:25 enough to power an normal nerd household 2013-12-18 01:25 basically a small 3-phase power generator with electric starter 2013-12-18 01:25 5 kW+ is huge. not movable. 2013-12-18 01:26 something which could, combined with ups could turn on automatically 2013-12-18 01:26 sure.. 5kw is small.. think honda with a handle 2013-12-18 01:26 1-5 2013-12-18 01:26 yeah, right. i'm not trying to build a cult around the power failures :) 2013-12-18 01:26 15 is like a small air compressor. 2 wheels and a handle 2013-12-18 01:27 about 150-200 kg, i guess 2013-12-18 01:27 or very very very expensive but a but lighter 2013-12-18 01:27 already the cheap 2 kW ones are about 50 kg 2013-12-18 01:29 7.5 kW .. 92 kg 2013-12-18 01:29 that's the top of that range. let's see what the competition has ... 2013-12-18 01:32 ah, here's one: 16 kV, 176 kg 2013-12-18 01:33 but indeed, that one could also supply most of my air conditioners ;-) 2013-12-18 01:33 hm. the last small honda i handled we carried up stairs with 2 or 3 persons 2013-12-18 01:33 about 5kw, 2 phase output 2013-12-18 01:34 2-3 persons for 50 kg that sounds about right 2013-12-18 01:34 shouldnt 5kw already be enough when you leave the airco out of the picture? 2013-12-18 01:34 that was the last big outage i remember in berlin 2013-12-18 01:35 about 5-7 years ago.. about 1 hour... 2013-12-18 01:35 now, when power fails, i would either have to summon people to my place to carry the generator up to the terrace, kinda difficult if the power is out 2013-12-18 01:35 or drag it there myself 2013-12-18 01:35 we took the event to start up and then service the generator... the battery was dead.. so we carried it to a car and bridged them 2013-12-18 01:35 or ake it that big that nobody ever will move it away from terrace 2013-12-18 01:35 2 kW should be enough for the PC and screens. that's what i'm aiming for. A/C is too far out. 2013-12-18 01:35 put it in a shack on the terrace 2013-12-18 01:35 make* 2013-12-18 01:36 I'm also looking for a nice handy 2kW 2013-12-18 01:36 DocScrutinizer05: don't forget the elements. these things are usually not designed for prolonged outdoors use 2013-12-18 01:36 the yamaha looks kinda nice. quiet, modern technology 2013-12-18 01:36 meh, give it a plastic hood 2013-12-18 01:36 tank is a bit small 2013-12-18 01:37 plastic + wind = no plastic :) 2013-12-18 01:37 LOL 2013-12-18 01:39 wpwrak: or buy a big one and sell the power to the neighbours by the kwH 2013-12-18 01:40 hehe :) 2013-12-18 01:51 wtf is wrong with Europe or with yamaha? http://www.pfau-motorgeraete.de/Stromerzeuger/Stromerzeuger-EF2000iS-Yamaha--507.html 2013-12-18 01:52 1000$ vs 2000EUR 2013-12-18 01:52 well 1700EUR 2013-12-18 01:56 the Yamaha looks nice 2013-12-18 01:56 nice taxes. EUR 1700 looks actually more expensive than in argentina :) 2013-12-18 02:07 well, a little searching made that more like 1300 2013-12-18 02:37 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 02:39 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 02:46 kristianpaul has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2013-12-18 02:46 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 03:07 wpwrak: your air conditioners ? 2013-12-18 03:08 how many do you need 2013-12-18 03:11 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 03:20 whitequark: naw, i just want my pc to have power. i can survive without air conditioning. drink more water, take more showers :) 2013-12-18 03:20 well, pc, and if it's a really long blackout, also the fridge 2013-12-18 03:24 spoken by a true geek 2013-12-18 03:24 "the beer must flow" ? :p 2013-12-18 03:26 yeah :) 2013-12-18 03:27 beer is important. liquid carbohydrates. because, without power, it's 14 floors down to go shopping, then 14 floors up again 2013-12-18 03:28 maybe you could arrange a series of ropes and pulleys. a makeshift elevator. 2013-12-18 03:29 and (unless you're suicidal) you would need an accomplice below 2013-12-18 03:32 hmm, why do i have to think of this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzAtimGNVsQ 2013-12-18 03:48 God! watched 3 movies on youtube, now I feel nausea 2013-12-18 03:53 "doctor, if I press here, it hurts" "don't do that, then" 2013-12-18 04:16 rodgort has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 04:21 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 04:23 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-18 04:29 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 04:42 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-18 05:16 crysis has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 05:21 crysis has left #qi-hardware ["Leaving"] 2013-12-18 06:28 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 07:04 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 07:07 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-18 08:28 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-18 09:10 Mistah_Darcy_ has 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seconds] 2013-12-18 13:41 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 13:55 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 14:56 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 14:58 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 15:05 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 15:05 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-18 15:19 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 15:38 panda|w530 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-18 15:54 nickoe has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-18 16:02 nickoe has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 16:06 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 16:07 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 16:13 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 16:39 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 17:10 quiet day 2013-12-18 17:16 indeed 2013-12-18 17:16 must be holiday season 2013-12-18 17:17 well, DocScrutinizer05 is probably busy with neo900, whitequark should be in the middle of the customary pre-fueling sessions, apelete may be celebrating that m-usb works, a bunch of people may be busy preparing for CCC, ... 2013-12-18 17:18 pre-fueling ? 2013-12-18 17:26 the process where you replace bodily water with low-grade vodka, to prepare for the serious stuff of the holidays 2013-12-18 17:28 * whitequark sighs 2013-12-18 17:29 sorry, russian stereotypes are just way too much fun to not make fun of them ;-) 2013-12-18 17:29 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-18 17:34 ffio has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-18 17:38 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 17:45 apropos stereotypes, this is by far the best video on russian street life i've seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-l4w-DIiXk 2013-12-18 17:50 _whitelogger_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 17:54 _whitelogger has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-18 17:56 lilvinz has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-18 17:56 valhalla has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-18 17:56 Mistah_Darcy_ 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([expletive] because it's impossible to translate while preserving the fine details of meaning) 2013-12-18 18:49 dialogue after the impact: "[expletive] awesome... [idiomatic expletive meaning "copulating cats"], [expletive]... we're swimming... wow, [expletive]... where are we swimming? to the shore, [expletive]. straight? to the shore. don't touch the steering wheel" 2013-12-18 18:55 kewl :) i love the coolness with which they react to all those accidents 2013-12-18 18:57 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 18:59 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 19:43 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-18 20:19 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-18 20:49 zrafa: btw, are you having any luck with taking to the freescale chips ? 2013-12-18 21:27 wpwrak: I have not started yet 2013-12-18 21:28 wpwrak: we will try with a parallel port . But first we will do some tiny board to expose the pins as well 2013-12-18 21:29 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 21:59 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 22:00 hmm, better use ben + ubb 2013-12-18 22:16 wpwrak: I was thinking in that as well, tempted because the 3.3v from ubb :) 2013-12-18 22:16 wpwrak: but we did not do much yet. Lot of bored stuff with students now at the end of the year :( 2013-12-18 22:16 (papers, forms, exams) 2013-12-18 22:29 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-18 22:43 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-18 22:45 wpwrak: meh, I have forgot how to use fped again... 2013-12-18 22:46 I can't make it make a pad without failing 2013-12-18 22:49 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-18 22:49 http://folk.ntnu.no/nicko/moar_stuff/circularthing.fpd 2013-12-18 22:49 Trying to make a pad from vec __0 and __1 does not work 2013-12-18 23:01 nickoe: that's because you have a loop 2013-12-18 23:02 mmm, on those? 2013-12-18 23:02 nickoe: the loop repeats everything in its frame, including the pads 2013-12-18 23:02 also when it does not use the loop, m? 2013-12-18 23:03 so I just need to creat another fram with the loop 2013-12-18 23:03 yes, that will work 2013-12-18 23:07 wpwrak: mmm, does not even work like this, http://folk.ntnu.no/nicko/moar_stuff/circularthing2.fpd 2013-12-18 23:09 if it ever uploads 2013-12-18 23:11 now 2013-12-18 23:26 your loop is still in the root frame 2013-12-18 23:26 so fped repeats the root frame (and everything below) 2013-12-19 00:04 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-19 00:29 hey, whren you're all happy with fped and kicad, doesn't any of you have a surplus eagle license.txt file for me, that enables 16layer PCB multi-sheet-schematics layout and routing ? 2013-12-19 00:30 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-19 00:32 tracing down the stuff with gdb/strace to patch out the limitations seems annoying ;-) And right ATM I'm still not earning any money with eagle, so can't afford the 1800 bucks 2013-12-19 00:34 16 layers ? a lot of power and ground planes ? 2013-12-19 00:36 (1.8 kbucks) spend 1.8k, still have almost 50k. or had nikolaus made off to south america with the booty ? ;-) 2013-12-19 00:40 DocScrutinizer05: when its for the neo900, just write cadsoft an email 2013-12-19 00:40 maybe you get some license for the project. i know some people who did, or atleast a big number off the full licence 2013-12-19 00:41 i know the ccc bought a full eagle licence with 50 seats, but that one is usually fully booked/used 2013-12-19 00:46 DocScrutinizer05: hm.. i see it for 1385€ atm... full 1 seat licence? 2013-12-19 00:56 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 00:58 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-19 01:12 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-19 01:18 yeah, that's probably without autorouter or sth. would probably suffice 2013-12-19 01:20 I dunno why but HNS is doing the autorouting with a program he wrote himself 2013-12-19 01:21 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 01:21 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-19 01:21 DocScrutinizer05: nope.. full with everything 2013-12-19 01:21 http://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/#eur 2013-12-19 01:23 autorouting. eek :) 2013-12-19 01:23 weird, last time I checked that been ~1800 2013-12-19 01:23 xmas discount :) 2013-12-19 01:25 prolly VAT 2013-12-19 01:25 click on "German" upper right and you get Layout+Schaltplan+Autorouter €1648 2013-12-19 01:25 taking you to http://www.cadsoft.de/ 2013-12-19 01:31 hrhr.. vat... you get that back anyhow as 'commercial' entity 2013-12-19 01:37 well, for now I'm no commercial entity, otherwise I'd simply but that stuff and not worry about a 1600EUR 2013-12-19 01:37 buy* 2013-12-19 01:38 OTOH maybe that's the solution to this as well as some other problems 2013-12-19 01:38 sure. elsewise you pay shitloads of taxes 2013-12-19 01:38 I should resurrect my company 2013-12-19 01:39 and then just send an invoice to GolDeliCo 2013-12-19 01:39 or let them buy it, or just a seat on their license 2013-12-19 01:39 HNS rejected that 2013-12-19 01:40 i see.. much too easy 2013-12-19 01:40 s/much/way 2013-12-19 01:40 roh meant: "i see.. way too easy" 2013-12-19 01:43 anybody a hint regarding founding something like a GmbH or UG? Particularly I'd need somebody who knows doing the whole commercial/accounting crap 2013-12-19 01:45 time to sort out the papers this neo900 project is based on. Sure we should've done that beforehand, but then Neo900 never had happened 2013-12-19 01:50 gismo did that. i think it simply costs money and time. 2013-12-19 01:50 it needs knowhow 2013-12-19 01:50 the money mostly because you need somebody with a clue of accounting and paperwork 2013-12-19 01:51 I'd add VAT with other taxes and divide it by Pi 2013-12-19 01:51 exactly 2013-12-19 01:52 and no clue where to find such an expert, or even how's the name of such experts 2013-12-19 01:52 i dont even do my freelancer paper stuff myself. its worth outsorceing that 2013-12-19 01:52 'steuerberater' mostly 2013-12-19 01:52 well, for such stuff you got "Steuerberater" 2013-12-19 01:52 not suited for doing a company clerk 2013-12-19 01:53 and they do book-keeping stuff also for money. just push em the papers 2013-12-19 01:53 they do? 2013-12-19 01:53 sure, you need to write invoices and move money around yourself, but they can do the paperwork which is the evil followup. 2013-12-19 01:53 cool, I might just have a talk to one of those guys 2013-12-19 01:54 first of all I need a bank account that's exclusively for the company 2013-12-19 01:54 some even do the 'here is a moving box full of unopened letters from the last 8 years, i get audited!'-services (costs extra) ;) 2013-12-19 01:55 sure, but what I'd need is more than some steuerberater doing the paperwork for me 2013-12-19 01:55 I need somebody handling the stuff 2013-12-19 01:55 and coming up with ideas on *how* to handle it 2013-12-19 01:55 go to your local ihk, they have (usually for free) info material about funding a company/accounts.. etc... including a 'step by step' how works what 2013-12-19 01:55 ooh, brilliant! thanks a lot! 2013-12-19 01:55 will do 2013-12-19 01:56 i mean.. thats what these guys are paid for anyhow ;) 2013-12-19 01:56 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-19 01:56 i should have done that. i was even too stupid to get some state funding for 'existenzgruender'... thus payd my health insurance myself from the first day 2013-12-19 01:57 that's what I pondered for the last 2 weeks 2013-12-19 01:57 since that's exactly my major problem right now 2013-12-19 01:57 there is some scheme, atleast there was where you only paid part of that for the first 2 years or so 2013-12-19 01:58 :nod: 2013-12-19 01:58 seems I should give my "Arbeitsagentur" a visit 2013-12-19 01:58 i guess you'll need a businessplan for that, but its mostly a lyrical description of your plans 2013-12-19 01:59 that could help as well. these guys really like initiative. gives them the feeling of doing something sane for a change ;) 2013-12-19 01:59 yeah, I wonder how much it would help to point them to neo900.org 2013-12-19 02:00 since you already got a project you have atleast the bonus of not having to find something first!11! ;) 2013-12-19 02:00 or if they will istantly freeze my support and call the police 2013-12-19 02:00 nah.. just be careful about what you say 2013-12-19 02:01 those guys always seem to do the most acerbating thing for their client's plans 2013-12-19 02:02 s/acerbating/detrimental/ 2013-12-19 02:02 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "those guys always seem to do the most detrimental thing for their client's plans" 2013-12-19 02:07 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-19 02:24 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 05:06 * whitequark bought some of that press-n-peel toner transfer thingy 2013-12-19 05:06 let's see how it fares again plain toner transfer and photoresist 2013-12-19 06:16 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-19 07:59 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 08:31 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 08:36 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 08:52 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-19 09:01 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 10:38 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-19 11:02 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 11:04 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 11:08 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-19 11:35 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 11:47 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-19 11:49 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 12:14 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-19 12:50 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 13:00 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-19 13:03 kanzure_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 13:07 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-19 13:29 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-19 13:39 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 13:52 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 13:56 DocScrutinizer05: About the Molex connector, what are the "mated stacking heights"? I only ask because that connector is 0.05mm different from another on DigiKey in that respect. 2013-12-19 13:57 yes, molex suggested that 1.0mm as alternative, but it's not compatible 2013-12-19 13:57 Of course, with FFCs - which I guess this is all about - that could make all the difference. Stupid FFCs! 2013-12-19 13:57 AIUI 2013-12-19 13:58 the problem is we got the one side (let's say male) fixed, we need to find a matching "female" conector 2013-12-19 13:58 molex today answered they don't have stock and don't know of any of their customers to have stock 2013-12-19 13:58 and they seem not willing to produce one reel for us 2013-12-19 13:59 Lovely schematic! Even the fonts seem to be done using a plotter. 2013-12-19 14:00 yeah, the fonts are abysmal, and I don't like the schematics style 2013-12-19 14:01 if you talk about the GTA04 2013-12-19 14:01 But H. Shimabukuro went to a lot of effort! :-) 2013-12-19 14:03 (I was looking at the Molex schematic.) 2013-12-19 14:05 ooh 2013-12-19 14:05 Eagle fonts in schematics are worst I ever seen 2013-12-19 14:05 Difficult to make stuff out on these things unless you have experience, I guess. 2013-12-19 14:05 Now that I'm looking at one from JAE, I start to appreciate the Molex one. ;-) 2013-12-19 14:08 the nasty bit are drawings that don't specify all the dimensions 2013-12-19 14:09 or those that have sets without common points of reference 2013-12-19 14:14 Is this the 1.0mm alternative...? http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/502426-6410/WM24076-ND/1987571 2013-12-19 14:19 DocScrutinizer05: can you replace (rework) the one on the FPC ? 2013-12-19 14:21 hardly 2013-12-19 14:22 paul_boddie: I haven't checked 2013-12-19 14:22 wpwrak: it's glued 2013-12-19 14:22 tried to unsolder one with hot air. broke 2013-12-19 14:22 and we can't ask customers to do that, even when they were not glued 2013-12-19 14:27 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-19 14:30 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 14:30 well, you could ship them with the board 2013-12-19 14:31 but glue sucks 2013-12-19 14:34 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-19 14:35 ship what with the board? 2013-12-19 14:35 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 14:37 yes, if you can figure out a way to rework them, you can sell them to people who a) have an n900 they want to recycle but b) don't feel up to doing the rework themselves 2013-12-19 14:37 of course, at a cost 2013-12-19 14:38 them=what? 2013-12-19 14:39 that fpc assembly, with a replacement connector (if you can't get the original, which seems increasingly likely) 2013-12-19 14:40 not great but better than nothing. well, if you can find a way to defeat the glue. that may be tricky. 2013-12-19 14:43 we would need to produce a FPC then with another maybe equally hard to source LCD connector, and a definitely hard to source other few parts, like front camera and ALS and proximity and whatnot else 2013-12-19 14:44 ah, i was thinking of buying the ones you can get on ebay and reworking it. always assuming you can still find a way to do this despite the glue 2013-12-19 14:45 and we would have to tell customers that they need to disassemble their display half, rip off the FPC and glue on a new one. Not exactly a simple process, Nokia care spoiled it on my N900 when they did a FPC repair 2013-12-19 14:46 we rather get the connectors custom made for 10000EUR/1000qty 2013-12-19 14:46 there are companies to offer such service 2013-12-19 14:46 oh, good 2013-12-19 14:47 well, a bit less horridly expensive would be even better 2013-12-19 14:48 but it's still cheaper than rework of existing FPC or building new ones 2013-12-19 14:48 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-19 14:48 and more convenient to customers, too 2013-12-19 14:48 yeah, it's a good plan B 2013-12-19 14:50 it's also good that you contacted molex. if they know that you're looking for these connectors, maybe they'll keep a (passive) search running. 2013-12-19 14:50 lickily we're almost at 250 devices already, so the connector is only 40EUR per device 2013-12-19 14:50 luckily* 2013-12-19 14:50 i'm sure you can get a lot more when you're getting ready for production 2013-12-19 14:50 I hope for that 2013-12-19 14:52 bbl 2013-12-19 15:00 my new favorite facepalm pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bb2CcDPIAAAZOz3.jpg 2013-12-19 15:06 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-19 15:07 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 15:07 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-19 15:10 FDCX has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-19 15:11 whitequark: can you explain to me what this whiley e. coyote epigone jumping from the tower actually thought he's doing? 2013-12-19 15:11 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 15:12 DocScrutinizer05: maybe this explains it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS7FZBgOqgw 2013-12-19 15:12 DocScrutinizer05: afaik he was a BASE jumper who didn't jump very well and thus was rotating in air 2013-12-19 15:12 and his chute, which was already at the border of its operating conditions, didn't open 2013-12-19 15:14 whitequark: can you understand what the camera guy mumbled at the end ? 2013-12-19 15:15 probably "he had the vodka bottle and now it's all broken [copulating cats" 2013-12-19 15:15 err, the vodka bottleS, of course 2013-12-19 15:16 wpwrak: yes, sure. it's an one word expletive, roughly meaning "all is lost" 2013-12-19 15:17 appropriate for everything from being one rouble short for a vodka bottle to a beginning of an atomic war 2013-12-19 15:17 i kinda thought that this was sort of all the same from the russian point of view :) 2013-12-19 15:18 etymologically, it's derived from the obscene term for female genitalia 2013-12-19 15:18 wpwrak: well, yes... :) 2013-12-19 15:19 i wonder if there are language courses for swearing in russian. could be a useful cultural addition. 2013-12-19 15:19 especially when translated back to a language others can understand :) 2013-12-19 15:21 english is really poor at swearing 2013-12-19 15:21 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 15:22 thanks! 2013-12-19 15:23 there's like seven words and all of them have specific and rather dull meaning 2013-12-19 15:23 paul_boddie: first of all we'd love the find ONE lousy 500246471 to check if it actually is what we're confronted with 2013-12-19 15:24 whereas in russian you have quite a few roots and countless forms and combinations, and all of them are ambiguous 2013-12-19 15:26 when I have to swear in english, I find it easier to simply use "fuck" (and its derivatives) in place of all other expletives, since that, by removing incidental extraneous information, hopefully forces the listener to disambiguate it themselves and hear something more amusing, rewarding and/or descriptive 2013-12-19 15:26 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 15:26 though I probably just come off as a person with a very small vocabulary 2013-12-19 15:27 it's hard to learn proper swearing in a foreign language 2013-12-19 15:27 but one who puts a lot of thought into his swearing ;-) 2013-12-19 15:28 viric: thanks to the intertubes and the online fora, this has gotten a lot easier in the last years 2013-12-19 15:29 English doesn't count 2013-12-19 15:29 because there is a very broad acceptance of speaking. 2013-12-19 15:30 noone of us natively speaks English, and we repeat "the English we see around". 2013-12-19 15:30 there's really no such a language as English 2013-12-19 15:30 s,a ,, 2013-12-19 15:33 it's like if I spoke russian with a non-russian 2013-12-19 15:34 and we tried to swear. both would understand, but a Russian would laugh on how bad we use swear words 2013-12-19 15:37 I bet an Englishman would notice hard differences among frasal verbs with 'fuck' 2013-12-19 15:37 phrasal ? 2013-12-19 15:38 phrazzoul 2013-12-19 15:38 :) 2013-12-19 15:46 DocScrutinizer05: You mean one in its loose form and not in its native habitat in an N900? 2013-12-19 15:46 whitequark: I think "copulating cats" has some mileage as new English swearing. :-) 2013-12-19 15:47 paul_boddie: are you English? 2013-12-19 15:47 I'd like to know how an Englishman interprets "a fig for the king" 2013-12-19 15:48 viric: Yes. 2013-12-19 15:48 can that be interpreted as "a finger for the king"? middle finger raised. 2013-12-19 15:49 I'm sure "I don't give a fig" could be interpreted liberally to mean something rude, so why not? 2013-12-19 15:49 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 15:50 paul_boddie: I should use it more often 2013-12-19 15:51 English banter relies a lot on wordplay, but that often leads to English speakers expecting to do the same in other languages, and it often doesn't work out. 2013-12-19 15:51 in that video, it was used in a completely nonchalant, descriptive manner. cats are copulating. sun is bright. we are floating to the shore. 2013-12-19 15:51 that made it both more fitting and hilarious. 2013-12-19 15:52 I was surprised how calm they sounded. It's as if they were in an amphibious vehicle and weren't concerned about sinking. 2013-12-19 15:53 It all reminded me of the way stupid console racing games reward players who more or less "ride" the crash barrier around the course. 2013-12-19 15:53 that's how you are expected to behave, in a lot of social circles 2013-12-19 16:03 lekernel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-19 16:04 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 16:05 paul_boddie: yes 2013-12-19 16:14 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-19 16:20 It's a shame they don't have actual photographs for all of those parts. It's hard to know what I'm looking at most of the time. 2013-12-19 16:23 that's why it took me one complete day to find this 500246471 2013-12-19 16:23 type 2013-12-19 16:26 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 16:49 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-19 16:52 arielenter has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-19 16:52 Heh, KGB Answers: http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-under-my-cloak-a-fig-for-the-king-mean/10860713 2013-12-19 16:55 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 16:55 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 16:56 wolfspraul is now known as Guest45160 2013-12-19 16:58 Guest45160 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-19 16:58 arielenter has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-19 17:04 Guest45160 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 17:04 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 17:09 Guest45160 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-19 17:09 arielenter has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-19 17:13 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 17:15 Guest45160 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 17:18 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-19 17:39 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 17:46 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-19 17:55 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 18:01 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 18:06 paul_boddie has quit [] 2013-12-19 18:18 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-19 18:18 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 18:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 18:34 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-19 18:36 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 19:14 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-19 19:18 kanzure_ is now known as kanzure 2013-12-19 19:48 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU0Nzg 2013-12-19 19:48 surprisingly, FSF just did something sane 2013-12-19 19:51 o way 2013-12-19 19:51 no way 2013-12-19 19:53 that would be a nice laptop for people with a legitimate reason to be paranoid 2013-12-19 19:53 cute :) 2013-12-19 19:54 reminds me of a days old article: turns out (I'm shocked, shocked) you can enable the webcam on a macbook without lighting up the LED, from userspace 2013-12-19 19:54 "The refurbished ThinkPad X60s from Gluglug start out with 1GB of RAM and a 60GB HDD" ? 2013-12-19 19:54 lekernel: yes, what's about it ? 2013-12-19 19:55 and 1024x768 LCD... ahem 2013-12-19 19:55 whitequark: that's nice of apple. so you don't jump every time the NSA checks if you're still okay. 2013-12-19 19:56 well, that's rather small by today's standards 2013-12-19 19:57 lekernel: yes, it's inconvenient. but that's the price you pay for absence of backdoors. 2013-12-19 19:57 did they check the HDD firmware for backdoors too? :-) 2013-12-19 19:58 for reference, recent-ish (I think ~2011 onwards) Intel laptops all include so-called anti-theft technology 2013-12-19 19:58 and the wifi card firmware (PCIe can DMA all over the place), and ... 2013-12-19 19:58 which in layman's terms means that the BIOS, while the laptop is apparently off is able to connect to the WiFi/3G networks and receive commands remotely and execute them 2013-12-19 19:59 and it's a feature 2013-12-19 19:59 barring all NSA-related stuff, I don't even want to know how many holes are in that thing 2013-12-19 19:59 lekernel: I believe they installed the Atheros card with FOSS firmware 2013-12-19 19:59 so probably yes 2013-12-19 20:00 HDD isn't a likely attack vector, but here you can embed your Linux image in the BIOS, thus removing HDD from trust chain 2013-12-19 20:00 so it's also not a problem 2013-12-19 20:02 most HDD CPUs are powerful enough to run Linux (and have plenty of SDRAM disk cache for memory) 2013-12-19 20:03 assuming you encrypt and sign the data, what exactly can you do from a compromised HDD? 2013-12-19 20:04 you could obviously swap the bootsector and inject a backdoor. I've addressed that above. 2013-12-19 20:05 incidentally, this can also be fixed by EFI SecureBoot, if you got your keys into it (easy) and trust EFI vendor to not fuck up (ha.) 2013-12-19 20:06 send rogue signals over SATA to exploit the 1337 vulnerabilities that drivers surely have. but yeh. 2013-12-19 20:06 it gets hard :) 2013-12-19 20:07 where's the FOSS firmware for Atheros? 2013-12-19 20:07 and this is why you probably should have systems languages with strong type systems :p 2013-12-19 20:07 http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ath5k#Hacking_ath5k 2013-12-19 20:08 though AR5B195 doesn't seem to appear in the device list... this needs further investigation 2013-12-19 20:10 ah, no, that's AR9285, which is ath9k-based. so no FOSS WiFi firmware. 2013-12-19 20:10 lekernel: on a more recent chip, you can prevent peripherals from DMAing all over the place with IOMMU. 2013-12-19 20:10 but, you don't have coreboot on them. 2013-12-19 20:10 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-19 20:12 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 20:13 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 20:35 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-19 20:36 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 20:59 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-19 21:00 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 21:24 firmware? 2013-12-19 21:28 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-19 21:54 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-19 22:00 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 22:10 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-19 22:59 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-19 23:18 kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-19 23:54 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-19 23:55 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 00:03 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-20 00:04 mth has quit [] 2013-12-20 00:13 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-20 01:37 how's the inverse of frequency of arbitrary events called? 2013-12-20 01:37 (no, there cannot be a wavelength of http requests, although that'll make a good novelty function name) 2013-12-20 01:58 I guess "period" works 2013-12-20 01:58 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 02:41 Guest71516 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-20 02:41 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-20 03:00 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 03:23 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 03:58 (([2013-12-19 20:48:44] surprisingly, FSF just did something sane)) BWAHAAAHAAA They endorsed a closed undocumented firmware! in the HDD 2013-12-20 04:00 ooh lekernel beats me to it 2013-12-20 04:01 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 04:02 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-20 04:04 whitequark: that's "period" indeed 2013-12-20 04:04 period = 1/f 2013-12-20 04:05 f=10/s period = 1/(10/s) = 0.1s 2013-12-20 04:06 Hz==1/s 2013-12-20 04:10 FFS a 2 weeks ago I at least had a sort of day/night rhythm that was like "go to sleep 1200, wake up 1700". Now it's totally damaged. Like sleep:1900, wake 0500 2013-12-20 04:10 and then a 48h awake 2013-12-20 04:11 and a 2h sleep from 2300 to 0100 2013-12-20 04:11 and another 24h awake 2013-12-20 04:11 then 48h sleep or so 2013-12-20 04:12 :-S 2013-12-20 04:14 i'm pondering to answer RMS' mails to me with a "Hello Mr Stallman! I wonder how you could reject endorsement of Neo900 while same time approving a laptop with a closed blob firmware in the HDD(!!)" 2013-12-20 04:16 you guys elaborated above how HDD isn't a threat for privacy of user in that X60. I say the modem in Neo900 is even less of any potential threat to user's privacy than any HDD. after all you don't boot from HDD 2013-12-20 04:18 and ANY data you send to or receive from the intarnet is considered 'unsafe' and tampered by definition, since it moves thru 2 bazillion possibly rogue devices, so your own modem is your least concern 2013-12-20 04:20 so what remains of the potential privacy and security threat from modem? inadverted listening? moot on Neo900. inadverted GPS and cell tower based disclosing of your position? moot on Neo900. Anybody anything else? 2013-12-20 04:22 on a sidenote: I found our subway has a very convenient single BTS distributed via pipe antenna in ~7km of the subway tube (with 1 or 2 dumb repeaters) 2013-12-20 04:22 means they can't tell where in that subway tube you are 2013-12-20 04:23 DocScrutinizer05: (sleep) how can you pull this at all? it's not like you're 17 2013-12-20 04:24 exactly. maybe that's why I feel like a turd cone 2013-12-20 04:24 try melatonin, it's nice for fixing the pattern 2013-12-20 04:25 prolly restricted here in germany 2013-12-20 04:25 seriously? why? 2013-12-20 04:25 supposedly intended for medical use 2013-12-20 04:26 you mustn't sell medicine here without approval 2013-12-20 04:26 I'm not sure I understand... I'd buy it from a drugstore here 2013-12-20 04:26 otc 2013-12-20 04:26 that doesn't apply for "nutritional additives" though, like vitamines etc 2013-12-20 04:27 it's really complex nonsense 2013-12-20 04:27 oh, seems like it's indeed prescription in germany, for some reason 2013-12-20 04:27 and uk, france and canada. what the hell is up with them? 2013-12-20 04:30 yeah, they are mad. they sell Ascorbin acid like nothing (sane) and mix Iron salts to popcorn and cornflakes and milk drinks and whatnot, so you get a 10 times overdose with "normal" eating, but same time they make ephedrine containing preparations non-sellable at all (even with prescription) while ephedra officialis tea is still freely available 2013-12-20 04:31 it's really hard to overdose on water-soluble vitamins so I won't sweat it.but I see your point 2013-12-20 04:31 but then they sell paracetamol as painkiller, and in the fineprint they tell you about "taking 200% of the recommended dosage is a sure killer" 2013-12-20 04:32 I read that paracetamol overdose is a rather significant cause of death overall 2013-12-20 04:32 yes 2013-12-20 04:32 you cough out your liver 2013-12-20 04:33 particularly when taken together with alcohol 2013-12-20 04:33 now that you say it, paracetamol-containing stuff is everywhere here, too. flu? take four 500g packets a day, that'll help 2013-12-20 04:34 for good 2013-12-20 04:34 never again flu ;-P 2013-12-20 04:34 nah it actually helps 2013-12-20 04:34 but I can easily see why people are overdosing 2013-12-20 04:35 yeah it#s in wick medinight and 3 dozen other flu meds 2013-12-20 04:35 :S 2013-12-20 04:35 it's called "teraflu" here 2013-12-20 04:35 mainly that and its ripoffs 2013-12-20 04:35 but yeah 2013-12-20 04:35 take two of them, and paracetamol tablets on top, and next day you're finally cured from flu 2013-12-20 04:36 we have a saying, "you can take meds and flu will be gone in 14 days, or not take them and it'll be gone in two weeks" 2013-12-20 04:36 same here 2013-12-20 04:36 oh and actual doctors recommending insanely expensive homeopathic shit 2013-12-20 04:37 with sufficient paracetamol however you have a chance it will go away faster. like the latest when the doctors signs the decease-paper 2013-12-20 04:37 both literally homeopathic and just some drug which was tested once in 1970s in ukraine and usa 2013-12-20 04:37 and only ukraine found it has any effect. guess which results the vendor uses for their 'medical' reasoning 2013-12-20 04:38 sure, worlwide best common practice ;-P 2013-12-20 04:38 this shit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilorone 2013-12-20 04:38 test and make studies until one shows an effect, then sell 2013-12-20 04:39 OMG interferon 2013-12-20 04:39 what about it? 2013-12-20 04:40 friends of mine had a hard time pondering and deciding if they want to really do a interferon therapy for their hepa-C 2013-12-20 04:40 it has *severe* side effects 2013-12-20 04:40 that usually don't go away ever 2013-12-20 04:40 oh well, I guess that's a different drug. you know, the one which works 2013-12-20 04:41 yeah, possubly 2013-12-20 04:41 tilorone is pretty much placebo 2013-12-20 04:41 look at this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tilorone+antiviral 2013-12-20 04:41 tamiflu same 2013-12-20 04:41 97 papers, most of them russian, most of them not even very relevant 2013-12-20 04:41 afaik tamiflu actually shows some results 2013-12-20 04:42 yeah, it used to, years ago. meanwhile it's as effective as tetracycline is for antibioticum 2013-12-20 04:42 it's a neuraminidase inhibitor with an understood mechanism of action 2013-12-20 04:42 oh, you mean flu adapted? 2013-12-20 04:42 hm 2013-12-20 04:42 yep, particularly the virus understodd the way it works ;-P 2013-12-20 04:42 first time I hear this, interesting 2013-12-20 04:42 hah 2013-12-20 04:42 yes, this sounds believable. flu mutates like hell 2013-12-20 04:43 first suggestion by pubmed to "oseltamivir" is "oseltamivir resistance" :S 2013-12-20 04:45 * DocScrutinizer05 is short on milk for coffee :-/ 2013-12-20 04:45 so my whole nutrition is at stake 2013-12-20 04:46 can't you just live off electrons? 2013-12-20 04:46 well, the better half of it. other half is the 100g sugar per cup 2013-12-20 04:47 the elctrons are needed by my peripherals, not by my central processing unit 2013-12-20 04:48 I really wonder if RMS ever got my answers to the mails he sent me 2013-12-20 04:48 and if so, them what a dude that is who doesn't answer back again 2013-12-20 04:48 depends on the meaning of "got" there 2013-12-20 04:48 hehe 2013-12-20 04:49 yeah, maybe he read it but didn't get it 2013-12-20 04:49 ;-P 2013-12-20 04:49 but even then... 2013-12-20 04:50 if you're not a too arrogant individula, you send a "please elaborate" answer 2013-12-20 04:50 you seen the tmo post where I quoted my answers? 2013-12-20 04:51 * DocScrutinizer05 idly glares at JollaPhone, then at mixer in kitchen 2013-12-20 04:53 DocScrutinizer05: (post) I don't think so 2013-12-20 04:53 o.O 2013-12-20 04:53 I've seen it scroll through the backlog, but I was busy at time 2013-12-20 04:53 lemme find it in the logs... 2013-12-20 04:54 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1396903&postcount=1501 2013-12-20 04:54 oh, thanks 2013-12-20 04:55 yw 2013-12-20 04:55 > If the modem firmware can't be changed, it is effectively in ROM, so 2013-12-20 04:55 > it might as well be a circuit. It doesn't need to be considered 2013-12-20 04:55 > whether to endorse a product. 2013-12-20 04:55 > as software. For instance, the FSF can disregard it when judging 2013-12-20 04:55 what the fuck, how exactly does it change whether it's possible to add a backdoor 2013-12-20 04:55 (apart from the regular my-head-is-in-sand wrt/ mask rom and flash) 2013-12-20 04:56 exactly 2013-12-20 04:57 though, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1397339#post1397339 2013-12-20 04:58 I think qwazix is about right regarding RMS' and FSF's intentions and motivations 2013-12-20 04:58 yes, that makes sense 2013-12-20 04:59 doesn't make the whole affair seem less silly though 2013-12-20 05:00 yup 2013-12-20 05:01 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1397401&postcount=1520 sorry for lazy link, clicking upper right post number returns you to full thread left-adjusted display 2013-12-20 05:01 Thread: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900 2013-12-20 05:01 is the link to click 2013-12-20 05:02 points to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1397401#post1397401 2013-12-20 05:03 this vBuletin setup is a tad silly 2013-12-20 05:04 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1397511&postcount=1525 2013-12-20 05:04 you could just have an option of a device without modem firmware 2013-12-20 05:05 for the one guy (RMS) who would actually buy it you can erase it manually or something 2013-12-20 05:08 unrelated: google's robots.txt sure has a lot of weird entries 2013-12-20 05:08 Disallow: /bsd? 2013-12-20 05:08 Disallow: /linux? 2013-12-20 05:08 Disallow: /microsoft? 2013-12-20 05:08 Disallow: /mac? 2013-12-20 05:08 Disallow: /unclesam? 2013-12-20 05:09 does NSA follow robots.txt now? 2013-12-20 05:21 lol 2013-12-20 05:21 * DocScrutinizer05 idly googles for eten glofiish m800 2013-12-20 05:22 oh, glofiish. familiar name. 2013-12-20 05:23 windows mobile 6... that's ancient 2013-12-20 05:27 WTF it has a compass??! 2013-12-20 05:27 never noticed 2013-12-20 05:36 http://www.inside-handy.de/handys/e-ten_glofiish-m800/1614_allgemein.html 2013-12-20 05:37 sure, the thing is like 4 or 5 years old 2013-12-20 05:37 Coolnessfaktor ? 2013-12-20 05:38 abysmal 2013-12-20 05:38 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-20 05:38 just a knockoff of GTA02, with better modem, hw qwerty, and cameras 2013-12-20 05:39 I never managed to get to know about the whole true story beginf E-ten vs Openmoko 2013-12-20 05:39 a knockoff of GTA02, sure :p 2013-12-20 05:39 behind* 2013-12-20 05:39 wait, you're serious? 2013-12-20 05:39 yes, I'm serious 2013-12-20 05:40 same display/digitizer, same CPU 2013-12-20 05:40 a coincidence? you don't have too much of different parts accessible at the time 2013-12-20 05:40 at some point in time early during OM somebody must have gone the spinoff path 2013-12-20 05:41 or was there some other link between OM/E-ten 2013-12-20 05:42 I honestly dunno. I never heard the full story, just every now and then somebody mentioning it. IIRC their office even been a few km from OM office even 2013-12-20 05:42 huh 2013-12-20 05:43 Harald during one of his intercontinental flights to TPE RE'd the kbd driver of the glofiish M800 2013-12-20 05:43 to port OM/SHR to that platform 2013-12-20 05:43 wpwrak: ^^^ any coments regarding E-Ten glofiish M800/810? 2013-12-20 05:44 and the OM vs E-ten story? 2013-12-20 05:44 been before my time with OM 2013-12-20 05:45 anyway the 4 capacitive "buttons" been a real pain in the ass 2013-12-20 05:45 and the joystick not been much better 2013-12-20 05:46 the battery been a terrible monster with a 5pin connector. Never seen anything similar 2013-12-20 05:47 and I wonder where my klofish battery hides. I probably should recharge it 2013-12-20 05:50 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 05:51 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 05:58 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 06:11 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 06:56 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 07:03 wpwrak has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-20 07:32 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 07:36 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-20 07:38 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-20 07:47 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-20 08:03 larsc_ is now known as larsc 2013-12-20 08:37 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 08:56 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 08:57 dos1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-20 09:08 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 09:11 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-20 09:13 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 09:22 ffio has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-20 10:52 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-20 10:53 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 10:55 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-20 10:58 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 10:59 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 11:00 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 11:08 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 11:13 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 11:15 ffio has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-20 11:24 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-20 11:25 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:00 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-20 12:02 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:03 newcup has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-20 12:03 rodgort has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-20 12:05 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-20 12:05 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:05 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-20 12:05 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-20 12:14 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:17 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:29 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 12:51 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 13:28 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 13:55 xiangfu has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2013-12-20 13:55 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 13:59 xiangfu has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-20 14:00 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 14:49 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 15:04 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-20 15:05 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 15:07 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-20 15:17 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 15:38 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 15:48 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-20 15:48 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 16:15 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-20 16:19 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 16:29 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-20 16:58 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 17:47 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 18:14 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 18:40 zrafa has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 18:45 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-20 19:41 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 20:50 Guest45160 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-20 20:52 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 20:54 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-20 20:54 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 21:33 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-20 22:32 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-20 22:39 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-20 23:55 relevant: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25461358 2013-12-21 00:10 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-21 00:16 whee, now we can have pets :) 2013-12-21 00:23 hello 2013-12-21 00:40 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 00:44 heya ! show the pictures ! the pictures of the perfect board you made :) 2013-12-21 00:44 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-21 00:54 not yet my friend...was away interstate 2 days...today going to pick up the blue paper from the makerspace 2013-12-21 02:14 drum roll :) 2013-12-21 02:23 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-21 02:47 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 02:55 oooo, there's a DE remailer I can trust 2013-12-21 02:56 so goldelico won't even need to send me neo900 via russian post 2013-12-21 02:58 also works with CN, hmm... 2013-12-21 03:01 how do you know you can trust them ? because you know where their kids go to school ? :) 2013-12-21 03:03 because a) they're huge and there's not a crowd of people spewing hate around b) I've used them in past and they consistently delivered 2013-12-21 03:04 the fees aren't something to scoff at (it starts at $50 and grows with weight), but if I combine several international shipments, it pays off 2013-12-21 03:04 okay, that sounds fairly convincing 2013-12-21 03:05 I believe it becomes profitable at three combined parcels 2013-12-21 03:05 especially so when intra-country shipment is free, e.g. amazon 2013-12-21 03:06 plus, recently they started offering a service which doesn't involve russian post ever touching the parcel 2013-12-21 03:07 as I understand, they themselves: rent airplane cargo spaces on US->RU flights, plan intra-RU logistics (say Moscow airports are really overloaded near end of the year), deal with customs and then send a courier from their warehouse 2013-12-21 03:07 fun fact: it's cheaper than any other option: first class mail, EMS, etc, etc 2013-12-21 03:09 sounds nice. 2013-12-21 03:09 indeed 2013-12-21 03:09 they even say when specifically they have shipments scheduled 2013-12-21 03:10 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-21 03:10 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 03:10 say my parcel will likely be composed at 23th, then shipped the same day and arrive in about three more 2013-12-21 03:11 which is even more impressive, considering the sheer number they likely have to process right before the new year 2013-12-21 03:11 ah, no "sometime between 8 am and 8 pm. just be at home, ready to respond within 10 seconds when the bell rings." 2013-12-21 03:12 no, that's a completely different thing, I'm talking about US->RU shipment 2013-12-21 03:12 since they stop them at 24th and stop customs processing at 27th 2013-12-21 03:13 but that's also taken care of. the courier will call you the day before and agree on a timeframe 2013-12-21 03:14 ah, i see. well, here this is so much easier: all government services are shut down from the 23rd to the 2nd, with some hastily issued decrees. apparently in response to widespread blackouts. 2013-12-21 03:17 no government [services], no problem :p 2013-12-21 03:18 indeed :) 2013-12-21 03:19 I recall a saying: in US, public services are for those who can't afford private. in the rest of the world, they're for public [everyone] 2013-12-21 03:19 but, I find this more of a spectrum than a definite distinction by country 2013-12-21 03:32 orthogonal_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 03:35 Hi, I'm thinking of getting an atusb. I realise that the range is only 4-7m. If I were use a Wokfi ( http://www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz/ ), then what would be an estimate for expected range? 2013-12-21 03:36 It is sort of like a metal dish put around the wifi usb to increase range 2013-12-21 03:45 so a makeshift directional antenna. they claim 12-15 dB gain, so this means 15-30 times the range, in theory 2013-12-21 03:46 but, do keep in mind that you'd need to orient the antenna rather precisely at the source 2013-12-21 03:46 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-21 03:47 and if you want bidirectional communication, you'd need two of them pointing at each other. it may quickly become nontrivial 2013-12-21 03:47 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 03:57 I see. So, 15-30 times the range would be about 1-2km. Ah, would I be able to orient it by just sight? 2013-12-21 03:59 that's about 60-210 meters, not 1-2 km 2013-12-21 04:00 Ah, I really should have calculated better :) 2013-12-21 04:00 (sight) at ~100m that may be possible. you could try one of those fancy laser pointers. 2013-12-21 04:01 Okay. Do you know if it is possible to go further? The XBee project seem to have 15 miles: http://www.digi.com/news/pressrelease?prid=455 2013-12-21 04:02 Not that I'd need that much, though 2013-12-21 04:02 They seem to use an rf 2013-12-21 04:03 well, in other applications (I've seen nRF24L01+ dongles) this is fixed by adding a power amplifier in front of the chip 2013-12-21 04:04 I imagine it would be possible to make a custom version of atusb, but as-is it's likely not 2013-12-21 04:09 Hm... a power amplifier. I'll see if I can look into that 2013-12-21 04:57 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 04:58 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-21 04:58 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 06:19 ffio has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 06:55 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 07:24 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-21 07:41 orthogonal_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-21 08:06 jekhor has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-21 08:13 ffio has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-21 08:19 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:02 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-21 10:06 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:07 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-21 10:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:09 rzk has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:12 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-21 10:22 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:49 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 10:59 rzk has quit [] 2013-12-21 11:02 wpwrak : gone ? 2013-12-21 11:02 wpwrak...this is the result using the blue paper... 2013-12-21 11:02 result ... http://ctrlv.in/273127 ......http://ctrlv.in/273128 2013-12-21 11:03 the blue paper *after* ironing it to the board.....this is the side that face to the copper board ... http://ctrlv.in/273129 ...while this picture is the side to the iron ... http://ctrlv.in/273130 2013-12-21 11:09 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 11:10 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-21 11:10 nicksydney: Hi 2013-12-21 11:11 xiangfu: hi 2013-12-21 11:11 nicksydney: have you check out this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Mini-slx9 2013-12-21 11:12 uuhh thanks xiangfu haven't see that before 2013-12-21 11:14 xiangfu: did you do all those experiment ? 2013-12-21 11:14 nicksydney: yes. 2013-12-21 11:15 xiangfu: so seems like from your experiment the 'Lucky' gloss paper gave you the best result ? 2013-12-21 11:16 mth has quit [] 2013-12-21 11:16 nicksydney: you can think the top5 are all same 2013-12-21 11:17 xiangfu: noticed that the link to the shop is to taobao...which is hard to buy from :)....do you have any idea whether there is something similar like that on ebay ? 2013-12-21 11:19 you can try to buy the same 'type' 2013-12-21 11:21 nicksydney: where are you? maybe I can just send you some. I still have them in my home. 2013-12-21 11:23 xiangfu: thanks for the office but it's allright i will try to get it from ebay as the shipping cost will be too much :) 2013-12-21 11:23 xiangfu: will search on ebay and will get an idea from you to see what you think about the paper 2013-12-21 11:24 i'm going to try again to use the blue press-n-peel paper again tomorrow and this time will do it bit longer to make sure i apply enough heat...looks like i made mistake of not applying enough heat yah >? 2013-12-21 11:24 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 11:25 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-21 11:25 aah, power failure while i slept. love 'em. 2013-12-21 11:41 [22:03:01] wpwrak...this is the result using the blue paper... 2013-12-21 11:41 [22:03:07] the blue paper *after* ironing it to the board.....this is the side that face to the copper board ... http://ctrlv.in/273129 ...while this picture is the side to the iron ... http://ctrlv.in/273130 2013-12-21 11:41 [22:03:04] result ... http://ctrlv.in/273127 ......http://ctrlv.in/273128 2013-12-21 11:50 interesting. it does seem to help a lot. 2013-12-21 11:50 your main problem now seems to be insufficient adhesion of toner 2013-12-21 11:51 maybe try more heat (if you can) and more pressure 2013-12-21 11:53 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 11:53 wpwrak: yeah my gut feeling is also telling me i think i have not use the iron long enough perhaps and also perhaps not too much pressure 2013-12-21 11:58 after heating for a while, you should also pass with the iron's edge over the board. that creates extra pressure 2013-12-21 11:59 wpwrak: true...initially i was bit worried that i put too much heat into it so i took it easy ... another try again tomorrow :) 2013-12-21 12:00 well at least it looks promising :) 2013-12-21 12:00 definitely, yes. and once you figure out how to use the blue paper, you can see if you can get it to work with something that's easier to find as well 2013-12-21 12:02 wpwrak: xiangfu told me about this page http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Mini-slx9 .... which is very useful 2013-12-21 12:05 ah, bgas, the next level :) 2013-12-21 12:06 nice page indeed. lots of details. 2013-12-21 12:08 wpwrak: the ps plot from the back side is flipped so when i transferred it to the board it looks the other side ... ... while i can see in kicad the back side not flipped...how do i view it 'flipped' ? 2013-12-21 12:10 not sure if you can 2013-12-21 12:10 maybe use a mirror ? ;-) 2013-12-21 12:11 you could use this, though: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png 2013-12-21 12:13 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-21 12:27 where did you get this from http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png ? 2013-12-21 12:41 generate the gerbers and .pos in pcbnew, then run "make overview" 2013-12-21 12:42 ah no, not .pos. the drill file. gerbers and drill file. 2013-12-21 12:49 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-21 13:22 wpwrak: i have a question 2013-12-21 13:24 * wpwrak dims the lights, turns on the spotlights on the candidates. who will answer nick's final question ? 2013-12-21 13:25 wpwrak: saw from schematics that there is a connection VSYS which is coming from AAT1217 and it is connected to pin 5 of MKL25 chip ..saw from datasheet that VOUT33 (labelled in Pin 5) is "Regulator output voltage" does this mean that this is used to power the USB ? 2013-12-21 13:26 * nicksydney put his thinking cap on and start getting his pencil and paper to write the answer down :) 2013-12-21 13:27 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 13:28 that's a little "6" there. the VSYS pin is VIN. VSYS is (more or less) max(battery, min(vusb, 3.3V)) 2013-12-21 13:32 so is VIN the same as Pin1 (which is connected to battery) ? 2013-12-21 13:33 i'm talking about the boost converter. and no, VIN is fed by VSYS, which is an output of the MCU 2013-12-21 13:34 here's a diagram (a bit dated): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/pwsafe/block.pdf 2013-12-21 13:36 USB power goes to the MCU where it is "mixed" with battery power. the result (Vsys) goes to RF and to the boost converter. the boost converter then supplies OLED and memory card 2013-12-21 13:40 I wonder if there's clear instruction somewhere in PCB_the_tonertransfer_way about the printout needs to get mirrored so it's correct orientation on the PCB after transfer 2013-12-21 13:40 the USB power that goes to MCU is USB_VBUS ? 2013-12-21 13:42 btw same procedure recommended for photopositive method, to get 'mask' aka toner in direct contact to the photoresistive to avoid parallax and diffusion errors reducing width of traces 2013-12-21 13:42 nicksydney: yes, this sounds like a generally correct assumption, on all designs 2013-12-21 13:43 USB_VBUS is the commonly used name vor USB power input to device 2013-12-21 13:43 for* 2013-12-21 13:44 sometimes also for the 5V supplied by device to the USB, in hostmode 2013-12-21 13:44 though in the latter case the term USB_VBOOST is aslo common 2013-12-21 13:47 DocScrutinizer05: cool...understood 2013-12-21 13:47 so that means USB_VBUS + VBAT = VSYS --> goes to boost converted to power up the OLED ... so that means without USB no OLED will be shown ..correct ? 2013-12-21 13:48 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-21 13:51 interesting pin 6 on the MCU is called VREGIN and this is the one that is connected to USB_VBUS 2013-12-21 13:51 datashee - VREGIN == USB regulator input 2013-12-21 13:52 ahhh pg 40 found something 2013-12-21 13:52 USB VREG electrical specifications 2013-12-21 13:52 VREGIN Input supply voltage 2.7 — 5.5 V 2013-12-21 13:52 am i reading all this correctly ? 2013-12-21 14:14 wpwrak: question...why is there a mention in the schematic about VSYS connected to 1uF (C11) near Pin 22/23 ? 2013-12-21 14:14 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 14:15 wpwrak: is that what is called a decoupling cap ? ... still learning here :) 2013-12-21 14:32 rather a buffer I guess 2013-12-21 14:44 DocScrutinizer05: what is the use of buffer ? 2013-12-21 14:46 nicksydney: without USB, the OLED still works. the boost converter just uses battery power then. in fact, if we always had USB power, VSYS would be high enough to always have 3.3 V and we wouldn't need the boost converter 2013-12-21 14:47 wpwrak: was looking through the AT86RF232 datasheet(http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc8321.pdf) and I'm looking at page 10 where it shows the pinout config for the chip...i notice that for pin 13 & 14 is it pull to ground via cap CB3 and on page 11 it says CB3 is 100nf while in anelok schematic it is using 1uF is this ok ? 2013-12-21 14:50 wpwrak: ahhh i see...so the reason why we have boost converter because we are using battery and there is not enough 'omph' to power OLED 2013-12-21 14:54 wpwrak: same with pin 29 of AT86RF232 it uses 1uf while datasheet using 100nf and anelok is using 1uF 2013-12-21 14:55 ah, interesting. they changes that from at86rf230/231 to 232. didn't even notice it. probably doesn't matter ;) 2013-12-21 15:02 for sue doesn't matter 2013-12-21 15:03 sure even 2013-12-21 15:03 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-21 15:05 wpwrak: can you educate me why using 1uf and 100nf will not make any difference ? 2013-12-21 15:17 nicksydney: it's basically like a tiny battery helping the regulator to provide smooth power 2013-12-21 15:17 they're buffers. making a buffer a bit too large doesn't hurt. it's like having a slightly larger tank in your car. 2013-12-21 15:17 making that tiny battery a tad more beefy doesn't usually cause any harm 2013-12-21 15:18 wpwrak: however check X5R vs X7R 2013-12-21 15:18 ESR et al 2013-12-21 15:18 Zind 2013-12-21 15:19 DocScrutinizer05/wpwrak: understood now for the cap 2013-12-21 15:19 DocScrutinizer05: what is X5R and X7R ? 2013-12-21 15:19 1uF actually might have properties not allowed for the CB1 CB3 2013-12-21 15:19 nicksydney: some special type of capacitors 2013-12-21 15:20 regarding material etc 2013-12-21 15:21 nicksydney: on page 101 (iirc) you got a pretty "schematic" of the regulator 2013-12-21 15:23 DocScrutinizer05: you mean page 108 ? 2013-12-21 15:24 maybe, I already closed the pdf 2013-12-21 15:24 9.1 iirc 2013-12-21 15:25 9.1 is receiver section 2013-12-21 15:25 9.4 says voltage regulators 2013-12-21 15:28 in any case, the transceiver will soon become a different chip anyway. so all that changes. 2013-12-21 15:30 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-21 15:32 wpwrak: so anelok will not be using aT86 chip ? 2013-12-21 15:34 nope, i want to switch to the TI CC2543, which should be BT/BTLE-compatible (at the lowest layers - it'll need some tweaking for the MAC) 2013-12-21 15:34 more useful than 802.15.4 2013-12-21 15:36 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-21 15:37 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 15:38 wpwrak: ok...cool..... 2013-12-21 15:45 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-21 15:52 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 15:55 time to hit the bed 2013-12-21 15:58 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-21 16:02 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 16:04 BTLE is a subset of BT, right? 2013-12-21 16:04 or rather, an extension 2013-12-21 16:05 extension of specs, regarding what's allowable etc 2013-12-21 16:05 a subset regarding some of the complexity that is BT, maybe 2013-12-21 16:08 BLE btw 2013-12-21 16:08 the relation is a little weird. as i understand it: the PHY is basically equivalent (though not identical as in word-by-word the same). not sure about MAC differences. there must be some in the data and also the hopping simpler. there may be some. the higher layers are apparently radically simplified. 2013-12-21 16:08 officially it's "BT Smart" :) 2013-12-21 16:16 wibree BLP BLE BLS OMG! 2013-12-21 16:16 dos1 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-21 16:18 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 16:19 ;-) 2013-12-21 16:20 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-21 16:23 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 16:40 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-21 16:43 larsc_: hi there 2013-12-21 16:46 hi 2013-12-21 16:50 larsc_: been a few days since last time, how are you doing ? 2013-12-21 16:51 perfectly well 2013-12-21 16:54 nice 2013-12-21 16:54 was thinking about your trial with dma on jz4740, how did it end ? 2013-12-21 16:56 not well 2013-12-21 16:56 at least not for the ethernet gadget 2013-12-21 16:56 the problem is that all the ethernet packet are unaligned, while the dma only works if they are aligned 2013-12-21 16:57 so dma is bypassed all the time 2013-12-21 16:58 is that an issue we can solve or does it render the dma useless altogether ? 2013-12-21 17:00 kristianpaul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-21 17:01 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 17:01 at least for the ethernet gadget I would say dma is useless 2013-12-21 17:02 you can still use it for maybe mass storage 2013-12-21 17:05 larsc_: okay, so no need for me to have a look at it then, I guess 2013-12-21 17:05 but maybe you can still push your patches ? just curious to read the code to know how it works :) 2013-12-21 17:06 I don't have them anymore 2013-12-21 17:06 ah shoot :-( 2013-12-21 17:06 but it was basically just allowing the same irq to be requested for both dma and the usb controller by adding IRQF_SHARED 2013-12-21 17:06 and adding the resource for the dma irq 2013-12-21 17:07 if you're in need of implementing DMA, there's still the MMC driver :p 2013-12-21 17:09 larsc_: ok, maybe I'll try to do that just for fun, and ask for your help when I fail :) 2013-12-21 17:09 pcercuei: MMC driver on the jz4740 ? 2013-12-21 17:09 yes 2013-12-21 17:10 pcercuei: so we need dma on the mmc driver too ? 2013-12-21 17:11 it'd be nice to have, yes 2013-12-21 17:14 pcercuei: ok then, I'm on holidays for a week or so, will take a look at dma both in usb and mmc driver 2013-12-21 17:15 can't order gcw-zero (not in stock yet) so I need to get my hands on something for the time being 2013-12-21 17:16 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-21 17:21 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 17:34 adding dma support to the mmc driver shouldn't be to hard with the dmaengine driver in plance 2013-12-21 17:34 place 2013-12-21 17:35 but before you start on this give me a ping, there are 1-2 bugs in the dmaengine driver that don't show up when being used for audio, but will show up when used for mmc 2013-12-21 17:43 larsc_: ok, will let you know before I start (not tonight anyway, I'm packing. will be traveling to Paris tomorrow) 2013-12-21 17:44 I'll be on the train tomorrow too 2013-12-21 17:45 larsc_: going on holidays too ? 2013-12-21 17:46 visiting my family, not sure if you can call that holidays ;) 2013-12-21 17:49 ha ha :) 2013-12-21 17:50 same here, visit my family and traveling by train. I hope to get some free time to spend on hacking though 2013-12-21 17:51 in Germany on the ICE they have poweroutlets on each seat these days. I just hope the train is not too overcrowded and I get a seat 2013-12-21 17:52 But I'm getting in on the first stop (and out on the last stop) so I hope I should be able to find something 2013-12-21 17:52 Holydays on ICE? :p 2013-12-21 17:53 yep 2013-12-21 17:59 not sure about poweroutlets on the TGV in France, but will be using my newly bought thinkpad X220, perfect to test battery time 2013-12-21 18:00 got it a month ago, but still working on my aging thinkpad X60, didn't have time to swith properly despite having debian installed on the X220 2013-12-21 18:02 if you really want to test your battery, teleport to argentina, then join the exodus to the coast. even inside the city traffic has exploded today. there's a sleepy little street next to where i live that gets about one car per minute on average. today it's backed up all the way to the avenue. the highways must be pure fun. 2013-12-21 18:04 (xmas and new year mark the beginning of the summer holidays here. so lots of people head out for the end of december and all/most of january) 2013-12-21 18:05 sounds like traffic hell 2013-12-21 18:07 totally. kinda like germany vs. italy around easter 2013-12-21 18:07 (if they still do that and don't disperse a little more) 2013-12-21 19:28 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 19:41 orthogonal has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 20:27 fire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-21 20:30 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 20:47 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-21 20:52 pcercuei has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-21 20:54 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 21:01 nobody drives cars anymore ;) 2013-12-21 21:07 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-21 22:07 orthogonal has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-21 22:52 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-21 23:15 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-21 23:34 fire has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-21 23:35 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-21 23:36 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 00:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 00:47 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-22 00:54 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 00:55 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 01:52 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 01:56 orthogonal has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 02:00 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 02:01 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 02:17 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 02:32 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-22 02:32 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 02:33 Coyo is now known as Guest20713 2013-12-22 02:55 orthogonal has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-22 03:16 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-22 03:17 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 04:24 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 04:27 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 04:40 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 05:47 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-22 05:48 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 06:51 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-12-22 08:55 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 08:59 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-22 09:16 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-22 09:35 >If you get some shitty bath-tub vodka, and run it through a Brita filter a few times, three or four times, the vodka will taste much better. You're removing the impurities without removing or diluting the alcohol. 2013-12-22 09:35 I have a hard time believing that man is American 2013-12-22 10:10 russians don't drink vodka for taste, so he is not 2013-12-22 10:10 ..russian 2013-12-22 10:14 heh 2013-12-22 10:16 baba has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 10:20 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-22 10:21 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 10:23 baba has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-22 10:25 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-22 10:25 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 10:59 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-22 11:01 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 11:22 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 11:24 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 11:26 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 11:47 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 12:02 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-22 12:04 wpwrak: when I try to add a hole on the frame called pad, I get the error that there is overlapping pads, how to fix this now? http://dpaste.com/1518296/ 2013-12-22 12:04 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 12:08 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 12:40 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 12:44 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-22 12:48 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 12:59 nickoe: hmm, you're trying to make holes in the ring ? 2013-12-22 12:59 wpwrak: yes, is that not possible? 2013-12-22 13:00 wpwrak: like http://blogs.mentor.com/tom-hausherr/blog/tag/pcb-mounting-holes/ 2013-12-22 13:00 nickoe: unfortunately not. all you do gets converted into slightly higher-level primitives of kicad, and you can't have multi-holed pads there 2013-12-22 13:02 wpwrak: but in kicad's footprint it is possible to make this 2013-12-22 13:02 you could make fped generate overlapping pads, though. that may or may not create issues further down the line 2013-12-22 13:02 wpwrak: what do you mean by; "make fped"? 2013-12-22 13:06 there's a directive called "allow" you can use in the .fpd file (not accessible via the gui). if you put "allow holes" after the "unit mm" line, fped will allow you to make these holes 2013-12-22 13:06 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 13:07 note that the rendering gets a bit confused. you see them if you select the "pad" frame but not when you select the root frame, because the drawing order changes and fped doesn't combine them 2013-12-22 13:11 ok 2013-12-22 13:11 will try in a moment 2013-12-22 13:13 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 13:18 nicksydney has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-12-22 13:18 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 13:23 kicad draws something odd, too. but it layers are good. well, you should get rid of the solder paste. (change the pad type to "bare") 2013-12-22 13:25 Ah, yes indeed 2013-12-22 13:28 note that this makes all the holes mechanical, not plated 2013-12-22 13:40 dream job (in the first picture): http://www.infobae.com/2013/12/22/1532593-los-cortes-luz-crecieron-un-25-cinco-anos-y-se-duplico-la-cantidad-horas-servicio 2013-12-22 13:41 that's an employee of an electricity company trying to fix things while the people who have been without power for maybe days (and are duly annoyed) are standing around, waiting and watching 2013-12-22 13:42 did they bring pitchforks? 2013-12-22 13:49 i wouldn't be overly surprised if some did. these look quite calm, but such protests can sometimes get a bit wilder 2013-12-22 13:50 no electricity usually also means no water. and of course, ambient temperature is around 34-38 C, so it's no surprise that people heat up 2013-12-22 13:51 oh, and around cristmas, it's traditional to go crazy here. you get also a lot of family-related killings and such. 2013-12-22 13:59 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 14:22 fire has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 14:54 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 15:09 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 15:09 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 15:11 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 15:15 root_empire has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-22 15:15 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 15:32 anybody ever heard of netcomponents.com ? 2013-12-22 15:34 LOL @ argentina power grid and companies 2013-12-22 15:35 planned crash landing. Yeah 2013-12-22 15:35 social networking for sourcing. wow :) no, never heard of them 2013-12-22 15:36 http://www.netcomponents.com/de/sitemap/5000246491.html 2013-12-22 15:40 pounce ! :) 2013-12-22 15:41 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 15:45 ~dict pounce 2013-12-22 15:45 uh, no bot 2013-12-22 15:46 aah, ding to the rescue 2013-12-22 15:51 "dict" is the command :) 2013-12-22 15:56 hmm? 2013-12-22 15:57 jr@saturn:~> ding --help 2013-12-22 15:57 Ding: Dictionary Lookup version 1.7 2013-12-22 15:57 Usage: /usr/bin/ding [Optionen] [Suchwort] 2013-12-22 15:58 comes with convenient X11 GUI 2013-12-22 15:59 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-22 16:07 guis eat space :) 2013-12-22 16:11 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-22 16:13 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 16:15 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-22 16:26 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-22 16:30 whitequark: sp, what's your next challenge after you've cancelled Foundry? 2013-12-22 17:13 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 17:19 porchaso0 has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2013-12-22 17:20 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 17:24 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 17:32 fire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 17:35 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-22 17:37 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 17:38 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 17:45 no 2013-12-22 17:45 GUI is UI 2013-12-22 17:45 no matter if xterm or ding, both is a GUI under X11 2013-12-22 17:46 but with 2013-12-22 17:46 jr@saturn:~/Documents/N900/backup/iron900/bin> cat /usr/local/bin/ding 2013-12-22 17:46 #!/bin/bash 2013-12-22 17:46 /usr/bin/ding -x -R 2013-12-22 17:46 wmctrl -a ding 2013-12-22 17:47 I can have a convenient KDE hotkey (I got win-shift-Y) to lookup an arbitrary highlighted string 2013-12-22 17:47 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-22 18:04 actually ding is most used program after IRC client on my PC 2013-12-22 18:04 then Konqueror then Kmail 2013-12-22 18:06 what is ding for? 2013-12-22 18:06 ring a bell? 2013-12-22 18:09 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 18:10 DIctionary INGlish ;-) 2013-12-22 18:12 ahhh 2013-12-22 18:13 actually I just noticed it has "En <-> De" *and* "dict" *and* "spellcheck". Dunno when it learned that 2013-12-22 18:14 anyway pretty convenient. Waaay better than www.babel.com or whatever 2013-12-22 18:14 highlight a word anywere, press shift-Win-Y and see the translation 2013-12-22 18:16 with KDE3 it was easy to make ding start on first hit of the hotkey and just make it raise window to front on hotkey when it's already started. With KDE4 this broke, like so many other things. Now with that miniscript and thanks to wmctrl I fixed it an hour ago :-D \o/ 2013-12-22 18:19 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-22 18:30 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 18:38 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 18:40 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 18:43 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-22 18:45 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 18:49 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-22 18:49 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-22 18:50 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 18:50 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 19:30 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-22 19:32 orthogonal has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 19:34 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 19:35 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-22 20:53 orthogonal has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-22 21:10 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-22 21:11 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 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delivery of the new copper board i ordered...will test with that today :) 2013-12-23 01:25 nice. new toys for xmas ;-) 2013-12-23 01:59 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-23 01:59 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 02:35 wpwrak: very much :) 2013-12-23 02:35 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 02:36 wpwrak: got few stuff for my son also to play with 2013-12-23 02:36 pcercuei_ has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-23 02:45 that's a clever way to hide things. son gets the train set but it's daddy who plays with it until dawn :) 2013-12-23 04:15 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 04:25 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-23 04:38 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-23 04:42 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 04:42 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 04:43 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 05:04 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-23 05:04 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quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-23 08:39 bartbes_ has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-12-23 08:40 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 08:40 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-23 08:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 08:43 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 08:56 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 08:58 good morning 2013-12-23 08:59 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 08:59 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-23 09:21 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 09:24 mirko has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-23 09:27 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 09:40 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 09:41 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 10:02 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-23 10:03 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 10:07 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-23 10:08 freespace has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 10:18 morning 2013-12-23 10:19 hey hardware hackers, and comment on my idea as sketched in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1399859#post1399859 ? 2013-12-23 10:20 (basically about having the cut edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts. With LEDs embedded in between the contact pads, separating them) 2013-12-23 10:22 DocScrutinizer05: an image is worth a thousand words... 2013-12-23 10:23 and how do you think I could create such an image? 2013-12-23 10:23 I'm not a gifted painting artist 2013-12-23 10:24 well, I bet you can draw that on paper, rougly. you're an engineer after all :p 2013-12-23 10:24 do the same in gimp 2013-12-23 10:24 s/draw/sketch/ 2013-12-23 10:25 actually I hardly can do that 2013-12-23 10:25 then, do you understand your own idea? 2013-12-23 10:26 not meant to be offensive or something 2013-12-23 10:26 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-23 10:26 sure 2013-12-23 10:27 but do you understand it? it seems it's not that complex to understand 2013-12-23 10:28 I'm not, that's why I asked for a picture 2013-12-23 10:28 it would probably be easier if I was immersed in your project fully 2013-12-23 10:29 that's not at all related to any project. The idea is simply to have the cut edge of the PCB plated by gold (pretty usual thing) 2013-12-23 10:29 oh so only the lowest reply in the message is related 2013-12-23 10:29 is it? 2013-12-23 10:30 reply? 2013-12-23 10:30 comment 2013-12-23 10:31 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1399859#post1399859 Kommentar 10 since #9 is about exposing the PCB edge to the world, not covering it inside the plastic case 2013-12-23 10:32 ok, whether it's lack of sleep, context or intelligence, but I've lost you 2013-12-23 10:33 o.O 2013-12-23 10:33 I asked if any comments about having edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts on outside of a device 2013-12-23 10:34 I can't think how to put it any clearer 2013-12-23 10:34 ok, it's clear now 2013-12-23 10:35 though I'm not quite sure how exactly do you intend to use LEDs 2013-12-23 10:36 I plan to have resections/bays in the outer edge of the PCB where I embedd the LEDs pointing away from PCB in plane of PCB 2013-12-23 10:37 the LED is ~ 0.8mm*0.8mm*1.2mm 2013-12-23 10:37 the PCB is 0.8mm high 2013-12-23 10:38 you cut out a rectangle of 0.8*1.2mm from edge of PCB end embedd the LED there, so LED's shining surface is flush with the edge of PCB 2013-12-23 10:40 what would you have that LED there for? 2013-12-23 10:41 for a lot of funny things 2013-12-23 10:41 and simply for design reasons 2013-12-23 10:41 much like http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopLW3389.png this switch got embedded 2013-12-23 10:42 right 2013-12-23 10:43 http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png in this bay 2013-12-23 10:43 LED "height" is really LED "width" ? 2013-12-23 10:43 though the LED has the same "thickness" like the PCB 2013-12-23 10:43 no, the height is probably smaller 2013-12-23 10:44 i.e., the LEDs would be soldered on the side of the PCB ? and the PCB is 0.8 mm and the LEDs have a width of exactly 0.8 mm, too ? 2013-12-23 10:44 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-23 10:44 ok, so when LED is 1.2*0.8*0.4, then the bay is 1.2*0.4 in a PCB of 0.8 thinkness 2013-12-23 10:44 yes 2013-12-23 10:45 mmh, you need some tolerances, already for the cutting 2013-12-23 10:45 sure 2013-12-23 10:45 also for solder etc 2013-12-23 10:46 and soldering will of course be fun. i guess you're looking forward to that already :) 2013-12-23 10:46 yep, sure 2013-12-23 10:46 ;-) 2013-12-23 10:46 is it a problem if the LED sticks out by, say, 0.2 mm at the top or bottom of the PCB ? 2013-12-23 10:47 yes 2013-12-23 10:47 well, we *could* handle that 2013-12-23 10:47 then i wouldn't put these leds. else you'll have the mother of all fights getting them there with superhuman precision 2013-12-23 10:48 technically those machines already have superhuman precision... 2013-12-23 10:48 don't see that. When the PCB sits flush on a bench then the LEDs sit flush in the PCB 2013-12-23 10:49 generally we need component positioning/placing with sub-0.1mm precision anyway 2013-12-23 10:49 whitequark: do you have a machine that will solder LEDs on the side (!) of a PCB ? i see nimble chinese hands ... 2013-12-23 10:50 hm, yes, that's an interesting question 2013-12-23 10:50 and given the mech design the LEDs will auto-center easily 2013-12-23 10:50 except in the Z axis :) 2013-12-23 10:51 solder surface tnetion will do the trick 2013-12-23 10:51 huh, why not in Z axis? 2013-12-23 10:51 naw, the LEDs sounds like a production nightmare in the making. you could design them in and see how it goes. but i'd expect you to run out of patience with them quickly. especially since you require very high precision. 2013-12-23 10:52 alterntively, see if you can get LEDs that are less than 0.8 mm. 2013-12-23 10:52 the precision is immanent in the PCB design 2013-12-23 10:52 no way 2013-12-23 10:53 they need to have height of PCB or we will not get a proper closed outer surface 2013-12-23 10:53 0.5 and 0.6 mm exist 2013-12-23 10:53 don't care 2013-12-23 10:54 the NEED exactly same height as PCB is thick 2013-12-23 10:54 (closed surface) why not ? and who cares ? would the LEDs also bear mechanical load ? 2013-12-23 10:54 huh? it's the outer surface of the device 2013-12-23 10:54 the PCB sticks out of the case ? 2013-12-23 10:55 no, it doesn't stick out, it is fliush with outer surface 2013-12-23 10:55 still, that's pretty unusual. well, calculate some 0.1 mm tolerances there 2013-12-23 10:55 nah 2013-12-23 10:56 0.1mm is a damn lot 2013-12-23 10:56 0.1 mm aren't a big deal. the case will still seem smooth. and especially if you have contacts there 2013-12-23 10:56 of course you'll also have to ESD-protect them, etc. 2013-12-23 10:56 yes 2013-12-23 10:57 but I don't want LEDs stick out a 0.1mm from our case surface 2013-12-23 10:57 no, i mean in the LED's XY plane, which would be the PCB's XZ or YZ plane. 2013-12-23 10:58 you should in fact recess them a little. else, of something flexible slides past, it will catch on the LEDs 2013-12-23 10:58 I rather have a 0.1mm gap on the "bottom" side of the LED to the contacts on the PCB edge, and fill that with solder 2013-12-23 10:58 and you have two big holes on the sides of the LEDs anyway 2013-12-23 10:58 o.O 2013-12-23 10:58 no way 2013-12-23 10:59 i rather plan to have the bay in PCB to fit on pressing 2013-12-23 10:59 do you want to make the PCB go "around" the LED ? in a 0.3 mm space ? no way :) 2013-12-23 10:59 huh? 2013-12-23 11:00 maybe you really should draw it :) from what i understand, you plan to mount regular top-facing LEDs on the side of the PCB. and it seems that this won't be very nice 2013-12-23 11:01 I think it is very nice and beautiful 2013-12-23 11:01 maybe if you try to draw it, you'll notice some problems yourself. i often do :) 2013-12-23 11:01 I don't need a drawing 2013-12-23 11:01 I see it in front of my inner eye to the last atom 2013-12-23 11:02 and I think our PCB manuf can cut PCB to a 0.01mm precision 2013-12-23 11:03 okay, you see something beautiful that is easy to make. i - and i think whitequark too - see something a bit ragged that will be a QA PITA :) 2013-12-23 11:03 yeah, just like the switches we need to use anyway 2013-12-23 11:04 and if i understand the design correctly, you couldn't just omit the LEDs if they don't work out, because you'd then have a hole in the device's outside, right ? 2013-12-23 11:05 I again sense this "we can't use this object since it can't get mounted to the wall using a hammer. You need to *turn* it in!" concerns 2013-12-23 11:05 switches go into case openings. so there is usually a bit of wiggle room. but yes, i hate them. too bloddy big, expensive, messy. 2013-12-23 11:06 i think you really should make a drawing. top view, side view. nothing fancy 3D. 2013-12-23 11:07 there is zero "wiggle room" for the switches mounted like http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopLW3389.png into http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png 2013-12-23 11:08 there is ALWAYS wiggle room ;-) are you an engineer or a theoretical mathematician ? ;-) (a joke in german, from a mathematician: "As gibt zwei Zweige der Mathematik, die angewandte Mathematik und die abgewandte Mathematik.") 2013-12-23 11:09 our switches are ~0.2mm too high ATM 2013-12-23 11:10 which already defeats their proper operation 2013-12-23 11:10 ah, dremel time ? 2013-12-23 11:10 huh? we're talking PCB layout here, not DIY 2013-12-23 11:11 i mean if they're too high, the bump into something, right ? so you'd have to make room. 2013-12-23 11:11 and no, you can't dremel anything here, except maybe the switch's moving part 2013-12-23 11:12 since when you dremel the PCB you remove the soldering pads at edge of PCB that the switch is soldered to 2013-12-23 11:13 no no, i don't mean dremel'ing the PCB. that would be silly. well, unless you tweak a prototype. then anything goes. 2013-12-23 11:13 no, THIS doesn't 2013-12-23 11:13 i mean that "too high" would suggest a conflict with something else. 2013-12-23 11:14 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/518/#ic1580 *2 2013-12-23 11:15 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_009.jpg 2013-12-23 11:15 see the gap between the two halfmoon shaped things in center? 2013-12-23 11:16 you mean the switches ? 2013-12-23 11:17 that's the operation pushdown our switches already operate on, and it mustn't be there 2013-12-23 11:17 I mean the thing in the center 2013-12-23 11:17 in the middle between the two switches 2013-12-23 11:17 that looks like an axis 2013-12-23 11:17 yes 2013-12-23 11:17 and the rocker hoovers ~0.2mm above that axis 2013-12-23 11:18 ah, so there should be no gap between the plastic and the PCB (at the axis) 2013-12-23 11:19 gap starts at top of http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopCz3389.png 2013-12-23 11:19 well, or filter out the incorrect use by software: buffer rocker input by T, then check if both are activated. if yes, cancel the volume up/down event(s) in the buffer. 2013-12-23 11:20 the upper thing with concave D is the rocker, the huge thing in center is the axis 2013-12-23 11:20 (gap) ah, i see 2013-12-23 11:20 between both there's a gap of ~0.2mm 2013-12-23 11:21 thus when you push on middle/center of the volume rocker, *both* switches operate 2013-12-23 11:21 so it seems that you can't change that. welcome, software solution :) 2013-12-23 11:21 nonsense 2013-12-23 11:21 how am I supposed to not be able to change that? 2013-12-23 11:21 isn;t the rocker switch a single mechanical unit ? 2013-12-23 11:21 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 11:21 again, we are talking PCB prototyping here 2013-12-23 11:22 next prototype, the switches sit 0.2mm deeper 2013-12-23 11:22 into the PCB 2013-12-23 11:22 so it isn't a single item then 2013-12-23 11:23 this is PROTOTYPING for Neo900 2013-12-23 11:23 relax :) 2013-12-23 11:24 isn't exiting/upsetting me what you aim at? 2013-12-23 11:24 your descriptions are particularly difficult to understand today. maybe it's time for that weekly hour of sleep ? :) 2013-12-23 11:24 naw, i'm struggling with comprehending what exactly you're describing 2013-12-23 11:24 nah, had ~20 in the last 30 2013-12-23 11:25 I'm describing existing problems of Neo900 first mech prototype PCB, and ideas for the final product 2013-12-23 11:27 yes yes, the high-level view is clear. it's the details where things get fuzzy. and alas, the details matter, especially when it comes to mechanical things. 2013-12-23 11:27 and I think we can embed LEDs with about same precision we need for those switches 2013-12-23 11:27 so I don't see why I have to make LEDs protrude a 0.1mm when we can do better anyway 2013-12-23 11:28 we even MUST do better 2013-12-23 11:28 e.g. for switches 2013-12-23 11:28 witch are mounted quite similar to the way I want to mount those LEDs 2013-12-23 11:29 what kind of LED do you intend to use ? not the normal T-shaped one, i suppose ? 2013-12-23 11:29 0.2mm is about as much you press down a button to make the switch operate 2013-12-23 11:30 I never seen T-shaped LEDs 2013-12-23 11:30 normal 0804 or 1206 or whatever 2013-12-23 11:31 T-shaped in the XZ plane 2013-12-23 11:32 like these: http://media.digikey.com/photos/Lite%20On%20Photos/LTST-C190KGKT,LTST-C190KRKT,LTST-C190KSKT,LTST-C190KYKT.jpg 2013-12-23 11:32 when they need to be 0.8mm wide then it's pretty easy to determine the oh-x-oh-y SMD package, though i'm lazy now 2013-12-23 11:32 My LEDs look like a brick 2013-12-23 11:32 they are 0.8 mm wide 2013-12-23 11:32 aha ! 2013-12-23 11:34 well, maybe they have "feet" but that's not any problem since such feet can go into holes in the corners of the bay 2013-12-23 11:34 yeah, actually they may look like the photo you have there 2013-12-23 11:35 excellent, since then we can push them in to fit from inside to outside (or from bottom, relative to the LED), thanks to the slightly conical shape 2013-12-23 11:36 it's those feet that i'm worried about. you have only about 0.5 mm between top surface of the LED and the top of the feet. that means you need a very narrow cut of the PCB and you end up with a fragile structure there 2013-12-23 11:36 yes, if you can get it to work, it would hold them in place rather well 2013-12-23 11:36 how's that structure "fragile"? 2013-12-23 11:36 it's not only 0.5mm high, it's also just 0.3mm wide 2013-12-23 11:37 again, see http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png 2013-12-23 11:37 it's quite small and it's on the outside, exposed to mechanical forces. 2013-12-23 11:38 what's the radius of these dogbones ? 2013-12-23 11:39 it's not worse mechanical than any arbitrary 90° corner of a PCB 2013-12-23 11:39 that looks like the mill diameter 2013-12-23 11:40 hmm, not sure if you're familiar with dogbones: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ 2013-12-23 11:40 if you want to make a "bay" into which something with "sharp" corners fits, you have to make a dent because the mill can only make round inner corners 2013-12-23 11:41 that's what you see in this picture 2013-12-23 11:41 so you can't make things arbitrarily small in this sort of concave structures 2013-12-23 11:42 we'll see 2013-12-23 11:42 if things are convex, you can make your corners as pointy as you like, no problem 2013-12-23 11:42 I don't care how round the concave corners get, we simply make them wide enough 2013-12-23 11:43 yes, but that also means that the remaining material gets thinner and more fragile 2013-12-23 11:44 after all, the whole structure doesn't have to be exceptionally rugged anyway, since the surface is flusg and plain and inly 0.8mm high 2013-12-23 11:44 also, a mill has usually a depth to diameter ratio of about 2:1. so for your 0.8 mm PCB it would be about 0.4 mm 2013-12-23 11:44 flsuh* even 2013-12-23 11:44 meh 2013-12-23 11:45 anyway, thanks for sparring 2013-12-23 11:45 heh, always fun :) 2013-12-23 11:45 seems those LEDs have contact pads on upper side of their 'feet', eh? 2013-12-23 11:46 the gold goes around, yes. so you could solder on both sides 2013-12-23 11:46 fine 2013-12-23 11:46 they're not intended for upside-down mounting, though, because of mechanical tolerances 2013-12-23 11:46 mount them "from below2 then 2013-12-23 11:47 hmm, good point 2013-12-23 11:47 the ones for upside-down have larger legs 2013-12-23 11:47 know what, maybe I use lightguide plastic and mount the leds 'remote' 2013-12-23 11:48 and they recommend HUGE holes in the PCB for them. but that may in part also anticipate those dogbones (since a hole is a concave cut, you get them here as well) 2013-12-23 11:48 that sounds like a good idea 2013-12-23 11:48 more work, but also a lot more flexibility 2013-12-23 11:48 :nod: 2013-12-23 11:49 with a bit of nifty thinking we ight be able to abuse the PCB as lightguide 2013-12-23 11:49 heh :) 2013-12-23 11:49 install a side-facing LED upside-down ? ;-) 2013-12-23 11:49 though, that would drastically reduce efficiency 2013-12-23 11:50 they may not like you at the SMT fab when you come with that idea ;-) 2013-12-23 11:50 what kind of distance between LED and PCB edge do you have in mind ? 2013-12-23 11:50 heh, told you about that embedded-components PCB technoligy lately ;-) 2013-12-23 11:51 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 11:52 still sounds scary :) 2013-12-23 11:59 you know what's scary? the damn LEDs that emit sideways to illuminate the kbd domesheet lightguide 2013-12-23 11:59 why are they scary ? just because they face sideways ? or do they have other odd properties ? 2013-12-23 12:00 0.6mm high (guess) 2013-12-23 12:00 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 12:00 maybe less 2013-12-23 12:03 that's the LED to PCB edge distance (i.e., the "light guide") ? 2013-12-23 12:03 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_013.jpg 2013-12-23 12:04 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_014.jpg 2013-12-23 12:06 sorry for dust on lens 2013-12-23 12:06 soldering looks a little strange. well, side-facing leds are nothing new. we even had them in openmoko :) 2013-12-23 12:06 not these critters 2013-12-23 12:07 btw, what kind of camera do you use ? 2013-12-23 12:08 (leds) no, the openmoko ones had a different shape 2013-12-23 12:08 1.8mm long 2013-12-23 12:08 1mm wide 2013-12-23 12:09 0.4mm high?? 2013-12-23 12:10 err, 0.4mm is the domesheet you see next to the LED in the second picture 2013-12-23 12:10 *incl* the silver foil and two protective films 2013-12-23 12:11 so the LED might be 0.3mm 2013-12-23 12:11 wow, very flat 2013-12-23 12:12 yep 2013-12-23 12:12 I wonder what we shall use for those 2013-12-23 12:16 btw, you may want to invest some of that neo900 money into getting a better camera. you n900 camera seems quite good for a phone cam, but the graininess and what looks like artefacts are pretty bad in those close-ups. 2013-12-23 12:16 for comparison, some LEDs snapped with my canon powershot SD880 IS: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/closeup-sd880is.jpg 2013-12-23 12:19 that's not a very fancy camera but it has good macro capabilities 2013-12-23 12:19 I can't convince users or Nikolaus to get me a camera for Neo900 snapshots 2013-12-23 12:19 of course, now you'd have to get a model some 4 generations newer :) 2013-12-23 12:20 well, maybe the crappy shots at http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/ help ;-P 2013-12-23 12:20 hehe ;-) 2013-12-23 12:20 artifacts are due to max digital zoom 2013-12-23 12:21 no other way to get a semi-decent shot of that small component details 2013-12-23 12:21 well, ask them: you do want THIS in the future, or would you rather have THAT ? :) 2013-12-23 12:21 well, look at my picture. that's without digital zoom. 2013-12-23 12:21 nah, i need to sort that on a more radical level 2013-12-23 12:21 project management has to move to me 2013-12-23 12:21 hehe :) 2013-12-23 12:22 well, it can have advantages if someone else takes care of the paperwork 2013-12-23 12:22 about to get stuff sorted to set up a business/company/UG/GmbH 2013-12-23 12:22 but he should understand that you need decent tools to do your work 2013-12-23 12:22 yes, that's the problem, I can't do paperwork (not even draw) ;-D 2013-12-23 12:22 and especially in this kind of project good pictures are important. also for the community. 2013-12-23 12:23 good schematics are also essential 2013-12-23 12:23 :-S 2013-12-23 12:23 kinda, yes :) 2013-12-23 12:23 not something where you don't find signals among all GND and VDD lines 2013-12-23 12:24 hmm, don't draw so many GND and VDD lines ? 2013-12-23 12:24 that's the problem, I'm not _allowed_ to draw anything (at least not based on GolDeliCo eagle schematics) 2013-12-23 12:24 hmm ? 2013-12-23 12:25 Nikolaus defines my tasks a tad different 2013-12-23 12:26 one project one project file one editor/developer 2013-12-23 12:26 and that's him 2013-12-23 12:26 when I want changes in anything, i please send sketches (you know i hate sketching on paper) or better yet lyrics 2013-12-23 12:27 that may not be the smartest division of work ... 2013-12-23 12:27 maybe he wants you do get better at sketching ;-))) 2013-12-23 12:27 #s/do/to/ 2013-12-23 12:28 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 12:29 and my argument that my schematics review and debugging skills get stifled by the schematics style... well, i'm basically not supposed to review schematics 2013-12-23 12:29 o.O 2013-12-23 12:31 particularly since i'd possibly need a professional license for Eagle eventually, to do that. And (here he's right) Eagle doesn't really support concurrent edits 2013-12-23 12:33 but then, he plans to have some 2 weeks holiday now afaik. I could completely redraw the schematics in that time and no concurrent editing would happen. But he doesn't like to even consider such approach, probably he likes his own style too much 2013-12-23 12:33 in gta02-core several people worked on the schematics. (kicad, but it doesn't know about concurrent edits either) wasn't a big deal. you just need to communicate a bit. 2013-12-23 12:33 (2 weeks of revolution) pity 2013-12-23 12:33 maybe kicad differs here 2013-12-23 12:34 we checked everything into SVN (now it would be git) 2013-12-23 12:34 won't fly for eagle 2013-12-23 12:34 if you planned to work on some sheet, you told the others on IRC 2013-12-23 12:35 you can't work on a single sheet of a project, in eagle 2013-12-23 12:35 when the project is multisheet 2013-12-23 12:35 ah, one file to rule them all ? 2013-12-23 12:35 yep 2013-12-23 12:35 that sucks 2013-12-23 12:35 one .brd and one .shm 2013-12-23 12:35 in kicad each sheet is a separate file 2013-12-23 12:36 and forward/back annotation between the two 2013-12-23 12:36 boards are just one file, though. but i guess for boards you don't want to parallelize too much anyway. 2013-12-23 12:36 and of course ERC/DRC across all sheets and the board 2013-12-23 12:38 in kicad i always use a forward flow. i think it has some backannotation but i'm not even sure what it actually does. 2013-12-23 12:45 well, basically first thing you want is to click a component in one notation and see it highlighted in the other notation 2013-12-23 12:45 sucks to search for N1140 on board 2013-12-23 12:45 when you spitted something about N1140 to check, while reading schem 2013-12-23 12:46 spotted even 2013-12-23 12:49 no matter what, maemo users donated to that project just because they know *me* and my EE background, and because of me telling them I will check the device for any bugs to make sure it works before we ship. So Eagle and proofreading is mandatory 2013-12-23 12:51 and I won't content with anything less in quality than the GTA02 schematics, when it comes to publishing those 2013-12-23 12:52 which already gives me headache, since in eagle it's obviously impossible to have proper searchable strings in a pdf printout 2013-12-23 12:52 not to talk about component placement, but well, we didn't manage that with PADS either 2013-12-23 12:53 Eagle schematics are quality like PADS component placement printouts 2013-12-23 12:54 seems everything is just bitmap in pdf 2013-12-23 13:11 (highlight in both) kicad does that. alas, at least in the version i have, there's a bug, so it sometimes hangs when both schematics and pcb are open at the same time. should check if they've fixed it since ... 2013-12-23 13:12 (you're having edit rights) yes, doesn't make sense to make you go through nikolaus. that's weird. 2013-12-23 13:19 ah, my camera has an image stabilizer. didn't even know that :) now i understand why pictures with very long exposure look implausibly good ;-) 2013-12-23 13:50 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-23 13:51 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 13:58 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 14:19 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 14:20 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 15:14 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 15:16 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 15:18 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 15:20 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-23 15:25 root_empire has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-23 15:27 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 15:39 root_empire has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 15:41 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 15:54 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-23 15:56 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 16:01 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-23 16:27 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 16:57 root_empire has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-23 17:08 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 17:49 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 17:58 w/win 47 2013-12-23 18:05 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-23 18:24 hmm i tought there will be instrucions to flash nanonote from owrt, but they point to qi wiki 2013-12-23 19:18 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 19:19 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 19:19 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 19:20 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 19:23 wpwrak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 19:25 Ornoterm1s has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 19:26 pcercuei has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-23 19:26 wpwrak has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-23 19:26 Ornotermes has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-23 20:21 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 20:24 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-23 20:29 pcercuei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-23 21:46 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 22:53 DocScrutinizer05: btw, if shopping for a camera, this one looks like a nice choice: similar characteristics as mine but slightly higher resolution, you can get as close as 1 cm (mine: 2 cm), quite good light sensitivity, and also a nice display. also, it's dirt cheap for al it can do. 2013-12-23 22:53 http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/canon/powershot-elph-330-hs/canon-powershot-elph-330-hs-review.html 2013-12-23 22:53 in .eu it's called IXUS 255 HS 2013-12-23 22:54 it doesn't have a lot of manual controls but there's always CHDK .. :) 2013-12-23 22:57 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 23:01 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-23 23:10 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-23 23:13 wpwrak_: adding the "allow holes" after the "unit mm" will make fped segfault. 2013-12-23 23:18 are you using the latest version from git ? could be that it didn't work in the past 2013-12-23 23:24 at least the example you posted yesterday or so worked with "allow holes" 2013-12-23 23:26 ah, and fped can sometimes crash. there's a weird bug *somewhere* that's really good hiding from me. it's somehow connected to deleting things. so save often. 2013-12-23 23:27 arielenter has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-23 23:27 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 23:27 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-23 23:27 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-23 23:33 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-23 23:41 wpwrak_: I am on 23a3348 2013-12-23 23:41 (it says so in the window title) 2013-12-23 23:42 not exactly the latest, rebuilding 2013-12-23 23:43 newest seem to not sfault 2013-12-23 23:44 yes ! victory ! :) 2013-12-23 23:46 23a3348 was loong before "allow holes". interesting that it crashed, though 2013-12-23 23:48 syntax error handling seems to be fine, though 2013-12-23 23:52 wpwrak_: works now it seems 2013-12-24 00:03 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 00:16 wpwrak_: though the generated footprint seems a bit odd in the kicad format 2013-12-24 00:17 wpwrak_: there is no bottom pad 2013-12-24 00:29 zear has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2013-12-24 00:33 zear has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 00:33 for experimenting with it, you could try to run the kicad module editor and change the holes to through-hole pads 2013-12-24 00:34 that may solve this sort of issues 2013-12-24 00:34 if the result is good, i can later make fped make such adjustments 2013-12-24 00:45 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 00:52 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 00:53 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-24 00:54 relevant to our recent discussion:http://www.jakoblell.com/blog/2013/12/22/practical-malleability-attack-against-cbc-encrypted-luks-partitions/ 2013-12-24 00:54 ... wait, LUKS doesn't use authenticated encryption? O_O 2013-12-24 00:55 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 00:58 ah, it does by default, but only since recently. 2013-12-24 01:08 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 01:11 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 01:13 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-24 01:22 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-24 01:55 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7b7_1387801108 2013-12-24 02:07 hehe. too bad the bird didn't take off. it's fun to watch them fly after a good drink :) 2013-12-24 02:16 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 02:19 wpwrak_: how would you know? 2013-12-24 02:28 once upon a time, when i was still a student, when a party came to an end at sunrise, we went to sit outside. one guy had a bottle of whisky. someone had some bread. the two were quickly combined and offered to the birds who showed considerable interest. afterwards, their flight pattern was a bit "wavy". 2013-12-24 02:29 i thnk it was mainly sparrows, so a few pieces of alcohol-soaked bread already have an effect 2013-12-24 02:30 anyway, time to begin preparing my den for tomorrow's party 2013-12-24 02:40 "wavy", heh 2013-12-24 03:36 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-24 03:36 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 04:18 Luke-Jr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-24 04:30 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 04:57 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-24 05:46 students that 1) drink whisky 2) share whisky with birds. What were you, millionaires? :) 2013-12-24 05:47 switzerland 2013-12-24 06:11 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-24 07:03 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 07:09 wpwrak_: the new copper board + the blue paper pays off completely ! 2013-12-24 07:09 here is the result 2013-12-24 07:09 http://ctrlv.in/274734 2013-12-24 07:09 http://ctrlv.in/274735 2013-12-24 07:15 ok time to get out of the house and enjoy day before christmas with the family.... 2013-12-24 07:15 wpwrak_: looks like will need to buy few stuff for etching :)..will chat with you later about that ;) 2013-12-24 07:43 Ornoterm1s is now known as Ornotermes 2013-12-24 08:09 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 08:21 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 08:29 wpwrak_: there are a few variants of LED formfactor: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HSMW-CL25/516-2278-6-ND/2428177 2013-12-24 08:33 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 08:57 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-24 09:06 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 09:25 or how about the smallest RGB LED? http://rohmfs.rohm.com/en/products/databook/datasheet/opto/led/chip_multi/smlp36.pdf 2013-12-24 09:26 1.5*1.0*0.2mm 2013-12-24 09:27 ok, a shocking EUR1.20 2013-12-24 09:29 though seems 1.0*1.0*0.25mm is 'smaller' http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Lumex PDFs/SML-LX0404SIUPGUSB.pdf 2013-12-24 09:33 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2013-12-24 09:35 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 09:39 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-24 10:42 nicksydney: whoo ! santa claus brought you a nice board ! 2013-12-24 10:47 DocScrutinizer05: (form factor) sure. but also keep in mind sourcing. e.g., the one you showed is "Quantity Available: 0". especially if you need a every specific form factor, things get hairy very quickly 2013-12-24 10:47 DocScrutinizer05: but yes, if you can find something more convenient and with a few sources that exist in real life, why not 2013-12-24 10:48 anyway, there's really awesome stuff, check out THIS! :-O http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OVSRWAC2R6/365-1550-1-ND/2203549 2013-12-24 10:48 btw, about LEDs: one little detail is that some have just two pads while others have one pad extend a bit into the middle. so if you try to run a trace across the LED, you may find some surprises 2013-12-24 10:49 0.08mm .oO(?!!?#@@#*§$@) 2013-12-24 10:49 2350mCd 2013-12-24 10:49 WTF?! 2013-12-24 10:50 the technical term for this is "typo" :) 2013-12-24 10:50 nah, check it! 2013-12-24 10:50 digi-key has lot of little errors. and others do, too. e.g., farnell thinks they have PCBs with a thickness of something like 30 um ;-) 2013-12-24 10:51 is Cd teh brightness when you look at the bright spot, or the photon flux? 2013-12-24 10:51 they put those blue LEDs in appliances which light up your room rather bright at night 2013-12-24 10:51 for the former the 0.08mm easily make for en intense but tiny bright spot at the source 2013-12-24 10:51 so I won't be surprised 2013-12-24 10:51 also whoever came up with that brilliant idea should have his eyelids cut and superbright blue LEDs glued directly to corneas 2013-12-24 10:52 mcd goes up as the angle goes down. so you always need to check the two 2013-12-24 10:52 the Cd values are consistent in datasheet min max avrg and digikey 2013-12-24 10:52 but you realize that it's not 0.08 mm ? 2013-12-24 10:52 it isn't? 2013-12-24 10:52 of course not. 0.8 mm. see the data sheet. 2013-12-24 10:53 http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/24/plasma-desktopOB3389.png 2013-12-24 10:53 ooh 2013-12-24 10:53 yeah 2013-12-24 10:53 sorry 2013-12-24 10:53 and also no stock, "call for price", and so on. this is just trouble. 2013-12-24 10:54 yes, seen the (CALL) 2013-12-24 10:54 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 10:54 not considering to get it 2013-12-24 10:55 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 10:55 nicksydney: the large surfaces are amazing. very neat. you have a few broken traces, though. that may be uneven ironing. so maybe you can improve that. these' get a very fine permanent marker and draw the missing bits. the permanent marker will act as a (weak) etch resist, too 2013-12-24 10:57 nicksydney: you also have some blurring in the lower right quadrant. that's caused by too much ironing. but it's not too bad. you can just scrape off the toner between traces with a sharp knife 2013-12-24 10:58 also, if you overlook such small problems, you can fix them later by cutting through copper, by bridging small cracks with solder, and by adding wires to bridge larger gaps 2013-12-24 10:58 but the further you get in the process, the harder it is to fix things 2013-12-24 11:18 wpwrak_: I'd wait for it to etch... seen etchant eating/seeping through toner much more than once 2013-12-24 11:19 ah, russian toner ;-) 2013-12-24 11:19 http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=1486 mentions she uses two layers of toner for that 2013-12-24 11:19 which I guess makes sense, but even more hassle 2013-12-24 11:19 or is it the radioactive acid ? :) 2013-12-24 11:19 not just russian... see above 2013-12-24 11:19 naw, that's over-engineering 2013-12-24 11:20 I'd say the process has far too many variables to be reliably reproduced :p 2013-12-24 11:21 btw I bought that press-n-peel stuff, but it'll take a while for it to arrive here 2013-12-24 11:21 holidays and stuff 2013-12-24 11:22 yeah. just make sure your basic process is reasonable. fix the glitches. i don't usually get 100% perfect boards but it's generally not a big deal to fix the few small issues (mainly fissures in the toner that lead to broken traces) 2013-12-24 11:23 what's important is to check the traces before soldering component. nothing like having some bit chip or connectors sitting on a broken trace ... 2013-12-24 11:23 or, better, a shorted trace 2013-12-24 11:25 and for etching, one important part is to get an acid that actually works. something that takes an hour before it even notices the copper is almost guaranteed to creep into the weirdest places 2013-12-24 11:30 of course don't use 30% HCl + 30% H2O2 either :) (super-fast. etches a board clean in something like ten or twenty seconds. the acid starts to boil in the process. has a certain tendency of overlooking toner. so you get something that still resembles the original layout but won't be of any use.) 2013-12-24 11:32 my FeCl3 solutions took about 20-30 minutes, my (NH4)2S2O8 solutions took about 10 minutes to etch 2013-12-24 11:33 still creeps around toner 2013-12-24 11:33 to significantly varying extent 2013-12-24 11:33 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-24 11:34 FeCl3 is just dirty 2013-12-24 11:34 dunno the other 2013-12-24 11:35 do you need to heat the ammonium ? 2013-12-24 11:35 naw, it's supposed to work well at room t° 2013-12-24 11:35 good. that's another nasty bit of FeCl3 2013-12-24 11:36 oh right, I didn't heat it, since I didn't really have appropriate equipment for it 2013-12-24 11:36 that explains why ammonium results were better and why FeCl3 results were bad... 2013-12-24 11:36 i wonder what kind of pervert ever thought of using FeCl3 in the first place. it basically has all the characteristics that may it as painful as possible to use. 2013-12-24 11:36 3s/may/make/ 2013-12-24 11:37 well, it's the most well-known and used etchant in russia 2013-12-24 11:37 yes, but why ? it just sucks 2013-12-24 11:37 maybe that's the reason :] 2013-12-24 11:37 you should feel the most pain possible no matter what you do 2013-12-24 11:38 doesn't work at room temperature, it stains, it barely transparent when new and fills up with black sludge in use, making it opaque, it's slow, disposal is a mess, and so on 2013-12-24 11:38 disposal? just pour it down the toilet 2013-12-24 11:38 yeah :) if you didn't have to suffer it doesn't count :) 2013-12-24 11:39 ok, russia ;-) 2013-12-24 11:39 oh, would it dissolve your pipes? 2013-12-24 11:40 depends on whether it can get trapped somewhere. but i was more thinking of toxidity. 2013-12-24 11:40 and of course, since it stains everything, your toilet may get a little harder to clean if you do tht regularly 2013-12-24 11:42 (toxicity & co) I don't think whatever amount of hobbyists purging their FeCl3 down the drain are going to produce any observable effects 2013-12-24 11:42 except maybe very locally, if they have that kind of sewage disposal 2013-12-24 11:43 Fe cations aren't exactly rare in nature either way, there's whole rivers full of that 2013-12-24 11:43 yeah, chances are it pales in comparison to whatever the factories in your area pump out 2013-12-24 11:43 that too 2013-12-24 11:44 I could understand if it was Cd or Hg or something worse, though I doubt that would be really that bad either 2013-12-24 11:44 Fe? *shrug* 2013-12-24 11:45 Cu 2013-12-24 11:45 fish really seem to hate it 2013-12-24 11:46 mhm, yes. but the amounts are still tiny. it's visible when done on scale 2013-12-24 11:51 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-24 11:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 12:14 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 12:40 I find it rather ironic that Chromebooks from the oh-so-evil Google in near future will probably be one of the safest and most open pieces of hardware 2013-12-24 12:40 > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1MTk 2013-12-24 12:42 I don't think there is any other relatively modern (5yrs) Intel platform with coreboot support other than chromebooks 2013-12-24 12:43 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-24 12:49 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 12:57 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 13:25 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-24 13:38 the issue with at least ammonia persulfate: it's rated. Possible to dual-use it ;-) Too much oxygen in there 2013-12-24 13:39 DocScrutinizer05: not here 2013-12-24 13:39 I can't seem to buy it anywhere around here, without showing my ID card and a commercial Addr 2013-12-24 13:39 I just went to a market (not like a flea market. it's an organized, licensed group of small shops) and bought a small can 2013-12-24 13:40 whitequark: in Russia you got easy access to way better explosives ;-P 2013-12-24 13:40 so why rate/restrict ammonia persulfate 2013-12-24 13:40 well, as discussed earlier, you can't really buy HCl or KMnO4 (at all!) or other seemingly innocious substances 2013-12-24 13:41 no kalium permanganate? why that? 2013-12-24 13:41 oxidizer, and in this case I think it can be used for making drugs 2013-12-24 13:41 it's not like you need KMnO4 for explosives. You can substitute by Kalium Chlorate for example? 2013-12-24 13:41 it used to be a really popular disinfectant, now it's prohibited *completely* 2013-12-24 13:42 OOOH drugs 2013-12-24 13:42 may be 2013-12-24 13:42 well, "can't really buy" apparently means "go 15km behind city border to the factory with a bottle of vodka" 2013-12-24 13:42 literally\ 2013-12-24 13:42 you need a bit of inside knowledge though but it's not exactly hard 2013-12-24 13:43 as an additional perk, you probably couldn't buy *less* than several kg of that stuff 2013-12-24 13:43 It's no 4 weeks ago I read a mentioning how to synthesize KMnO4 2013-12-24 13:43 possibly even by using Ammonia persulfate 2013-12-24 13:44 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how to synthesize H2O2 2013-12-24 13:45 what for? 2013-12-24 13:46 also, wikipedia lists no less than four pathways 2013-12-24 13:46 and I bet you could find a shitload of paper with incredibly detailed descriptions 2013-12-24 13:46 *papers 2013-12-24 13:47 just curious 2013-12-24 13:47 it seems it's not THAT simple to get high percentage H2O2 2013-12-24 13:49 that would really depend on quantities and costs you need 2013-12-24 13:51 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogentrioxid 2013-12-24 13:51 :-o 2013-12-24 13:52 this must be nasty stuff 2013-12-24 13:52 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2013-12-24 13:53 oh, neat, never heard about this before 2013-12-24 13:54 well, instable like quarks 2013-12-24 13:54 in water it breaks up in milliseconds 2013-12-24 13:54 DocScrutinizer05: I highly recommend this: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride.php 2013-12-24 13:56 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 13:58 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 13:58 Coyo is now known as Guest62213 2013-12-24 14:00 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-24 14:00 mth has quit [] 2013-12-24 14:01 "And he's just getting warmed up, if that's the right phrase to use for something that detonates things at -180C (that's -300 Fahrenheit, if you only have a kitchen thermometer). The great majority of Streng's reactions have surely never been run again. The paper goes on to react FOOF with everything else you wouldn't react it with: ammonia ("vigorous", this at 100K), water ice (explosion, natch), chlorine ("violent explosion", so he added i 2013-12-24 14:02 t more slowly the second time), red phosphorus (not good), bromine fluoride, chlorine trifluoride (say what?), perchloryl fluoride (!), tetrafluorohydrazine (how on Earth. . .), and on, and on. If the paper weren't laid out in complete grammatical sentences and published in JACS, you'd swear it was the work of a violent lunatic." 2013-12-24 14:03 the most remarkable thing is that he lived to write about his experiments 2013-12-24 14:03 larsc_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 14:03 gives me a laugh :-D 2013-12-24 14:04 woakas1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 14:04 wpwrak_: indeed 2013-12-24 14:04 tetrafluorohydrazine WTF?! 2013-12-24 14:04 chlorine trifluoride: "It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively." 2013-12-24 14:05 and he mixed it with FOOF. 2013-12-24 14:06 Guest81187 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-24 14:06 larsc has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-24 14:06 woakas has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-24 14:06 >>Tetrafluorohydrazine is used as a high-energy liquid oxidizer in some never flown rocket fuel formulas.<< 2013-12-24 14:07 never flown ... not even as shrapnel ? 2013-12-24 14:07 * whitequark is reading MSDS for ClF3 2013-12-24 14:07 "However, the dry ice bath embrittled the steel container wall, which split while it was being maneuvered onto a dolly, instantaneously releasing 907 kg (2,000 lb) of cold ClF3 liquid onto the building floor. 2013-12-24 14:08 this guy should stop injecting this mix of testosterone and angel dust and speed 2013-12-24 14:08 that must have been fun 2013-12-24 14:09 wow, the criticality events of chemical labs 2013-12-24 14:10 "One eyewitness described the incident by stating, “The concrete was on fire!” 2013-12-24 14:10 reading such story I'm ahppy about our container station moved away from vicinity of my house 2013-12-24 14:11 if already find it sufficiently encouraging if something explosively reacts with water ice. 2013-12-24 14:11 yeah 2013-12-24 14:11 nicwe 2013-12-24 14:11 nice even 2013-12-24 14:11 i mean the fire police already has a hard enough time with metal fires, and there's it's merey the heat splitting the water (causing hydrogen explosions) 2013-12-24 14:12 wpwrak_: talking about metal fires, there's this further thing about ClF3 2013-12-24 14:12 they should check if it could get used for laser just like H2+F2 2013-12-24 14:12 normally it passivates a metal, but if you scratch it... yeah, the layer doesn't form quickly enough 2013-12-24 14:12 so you have to deal with a metal fire in addition to whatever else is it burning through 2013-12-24 14:13 basically, everything will be on fire 2013-12-24 14:13 real fun 2013-12-24 14:13 o.O 2013-12-24 14:13 LC50: 299 ppm for 1 hour rat (death due to respiratory 2013-12-24 14:13 failure) 2013-12-24 14:14 DocScrutinizer05: this is a fun read: http://www.lfks-th.de/de/lfks/ice/offen/BuK%20Eisenbahntunnel/pdf/brand_ice.pdf 2013-12-24 14:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 14:15 wpwrak_: that's in german and uncopyable. a summary? 2013-12-24 14:15 DocScrutinizer05: note especially: 1) the first call to the firefighters. 2) how the amount of equipment deployed upon that call corresponds to what was reported. 3) how all that relates to the what they had there in the end. 2013-12-24 14:16 whitequark: an ICE (german high-speed train) locomotive started to smoke. so they called the fire police to inspect it. they said it's just smoke, no fire. 2013-12-24 14:17 huh?! 2013-12-24 14:17 whitequark: fire police dispatched some five cars and 14 men. they found there was a little fire. so they tried to extinguish it ... 2013-12-24 14:19 whitequark: some five hours later, and with pretty much every firefighter of the wider area at the scene (including specialized industrial units, i think), they finally had the fire under control. it still flared up for two hours or so. 2013-12-24 14:19 basically anything they threw at it just dissolved, had no effect, or even fueled the fire 2013-12-24 14:20 what exactly was on fire there? 2013-12-24 14:21 ah yes, in the end a total of 55 men were deployed. don't know how many more cars. at least one special unit. 2013-12-24 14:22 it was a short-circuit that started it. not sure what burnt first. there must be some things that don't take much. then there are large transformers with oil. and then the metals. 2013-12-24 14:23 e.g., aluminium will burn if the fire is just hot enough 2013-12-24 14:30 merry christmas to all 2013-12-24 14:30 well it's christmas morning here by the way .. 1.30am :) 2013-12-24 14:30 wpwrak_: last time you were telling me about etching using acid and something can't remember what it was 2013-12-24 14:31 wpwrak_: can you refresh my memory 2013-12-24 14:31 wpwrak_: oh by the way before i start etching will buy some sharpies...but seems like i will need a thin sharpie for the broken traces 2013-12-24 14:31 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-24 14:32 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 14:36 nicksydney: merry x-mess ! ;-) 2013-12-24 14:38 nicksydney: muriatic acid and peroxide. cheap, easy to obtain (except when you're in russia), nice to handle (just make sure you have good ventilation, window or work outside. the chloride gas, while not harmful in that concentration can still do damage to metals if you give it enough time) 2013-12-24 14:40 (sharpies) yup. get the finest you can find. you can draw lines thinner than the tip width by not fully touching the board but it's a bit difficult. so a fine tip helps. 2013-12-24 14:41 let me google muriatic and peroxide 2013-12-24 14:42 this .. http://www.bunnings.com.au/-bondall-500ml-hydrochloric-acid-_p0960231 ? 2013-12-24 14:42 also, if you "fatten" a trace and you made it too fat, you can let the ink dry and then scrape some off with a knife. 2013-12-24 14:43 nicksydney: we had a loooooong discussion of the etching process. it starts here: http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12-04#5761700 2013-12-24 14:44 let me search in the irc log 2013-12-24 14:45 that 500 ml bottle looks good. 26-30%, that's a reasonable concentration 2013-12-24 14:46 yes...here was the discussion http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12-07 :) 2013-12-24 14:46 not sure what the titanium dioxide the mixed in does. 2013-12-24 14:46 ok for the peroxide last time i showed you this http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439 :) 2013-12-24 14:47 another $10 need to be spent tomorrow :) 2013-12-24 14:47 3% .. yeah, that'll do. if you can get something a little stronger, even better 2013-12-24 14:48 ok last in our discussion i was still not sure about "mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl" 2013-12-24 14:48 a mix with 3% peroxide is relatively slow and can't be reused much 2013-12-24 14:49 that's the mix you use to begin. afterwards, you can reuse the acid for a very very long time (months if not years) 2013-12-24 14:50 so say for example i use the measurement using the lid of this bottle http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439 .. so if i want to measure that way and if i use 2 lid measurement of peroxide..how many lid measurement of the acid i must mix in ? 2013-12-24 14:50 the chemistry changes and you get a cupric acid. you need to "boost" that acid with oxygen (peroxide) and chloride (muriatic acid). so when the acid gets weak, you add some of these and it'll be strong again. 2013-12-24 14:51 not, the issue is that, the more you add, the more water gets into the mix. at some point the water will dilute things just too much. with higher concentration peroxide you add less water and thus don't dilute it so quickly. 2013-12-24 14:51 one HCl 2013-12-24 14:52 but you don't have to be super precise. just make rough guesses. when you top off the acid later on it's all guesswork anyway. it works over a wide range of mixes so unless you're walter white, just accept that things aren;t always perfect :) 2013-12-24 14:52 anyway, off to do some more shopping 2013-12-24 14:53 cool...will experiment with it tomorrow 2013-12-24 15:06 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-24 15:09 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 15:16 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 15:22 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 15:23 nicksydney: just make DAMN SURE not to bring close to etching bath *any* solvents like acetone or other hydrocarbon stuff or liquids or objects that might contain such solvents 2013-12-24 15:24 DocScrutinizer05: ok sure...will be doing it in the garden away from all things 2013-12-24 15:25 particularly nasty since acetone is a prominent solvent to remove toner etc from the PCB 2013-12-24 15:25 cool 2013-12-24 15:26 you don't want acetone peroxide (apex) to build up in your etching bath 2013-12-24 15:39 could that even happen in the bath ? 2013-12-24 15:39 the peroxide is very diluted anyway 2013-12-24 15:40 yes 2013-12-24 15:40 should try that once, then. something to scare the dogs in the neighbourhood with ;-) 2013-12-24 15:40 apex - the devil's granma 2013-12-24 15:43 one of the rules set into granite of chemical labs: never bring acetone and H2O2 next to each other 2013-12-24 15:44 no matter which concentration or how good the glas tube separating those two components 2013-12-24 15:45 it's the same class of rule like "never oil oxygen bottle threads" 2013-12-24 15:45 or "never pour water into acid" 2013-12-24 15:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide 2013-12-24 15:56 how dangerous would be those small amounts, though? 2013-12-24 15:59 well, when the hydrocloric acid explodes right into your face, you won't ask if it been 0.1 or 10g of apex that caused it 2013-12-24 15:59 though I just read copper(ii) salts can stop the creation of acetone peroxides 2013-12-24 15:59 :-) 2013-12-24 16:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide#Industrial_occurrence 2013-12-24 16:04 lekernel: the amount will depend on how much acetone you add to the etching bath 2013-12-24 16:05 and 10g of acetone peroxide are for sure no joke to handle 2013-12-24 16:05 it's about as potent as nitro 2013-12-24 16:13 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-24 16:20 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 16:52 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 19:31 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-24 19:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 19:45 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 20:56 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-24 21:03 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 21:05 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-24 21:18 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-24 21:40 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 21:40 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:02 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:05 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:13 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 22:18 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:22 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:43 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 22:46 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 22:46 viric_ is now known as viric 2013-12-24 22:53 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-24 22:54 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-24 22:59 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 23:12 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-24 23:28 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-24 23:29 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-24 23:38 jurting has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-25 00:01 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-25 00:08 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-25 00:36 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 00:40 pcercuei has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 2013-12-25 00:55 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-25 03:16 unclouded has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-25 04:52 roh, wpwrak_: what do you think of this CNC machine? http://www.mydiycnc.com/the%20design 2013-12-25 05:22 or this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-3020T-DESKTOP-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-NEW-p8-/200721798773 2013-12-25 08:16 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 09:03 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 09:06 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-25 11:06 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 11:11 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 11:17 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2013-12-25 11:23 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 11:34 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-25 11:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 11:51 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 12:05 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 12:20 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 12:43 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 12:48 >>Shipping: $399.00<< WTF? 2013-12-25 12:49 DocScrutinizer05: doesn't matter, there are others selling the same machine with sane shipping price 2013-12-25 12:55 0.05mm precision sounds good, if that's true 2013-12-25 12:56 particularly spindle motor axial often is a problem 2013-12-25 12:57 when the mill axis has 0.1mm room to move up when under pressure and come down again while slowly milling too deep into the workpiece, you got a pretty nasty problem 2013-12-25 12:58 you *might* be able to cure this by simply rotating the whole contraption upside down 2013-12-25 12:59 but obviously you mustn't have slackness in any other of the parts then 2013-12-25 12:59 well, in any of the parts that get pushed up by mill engaging to the workpiece 2013-12-25 13:01 the pricetag for that thing sounds reasonable, when it's not a flimsy scam 2013-12-25 13:01 however please ask roh who seems to have some RL experience with those sorts of machines 2013-12-25 13:02 DocScrutinizer05: I've seen several people on the net who bought this machine 2013-12-25 13:02 the general consensus seems to be that its mechanics are up to the task 2013-12-25 13:03 maybe a good idea to check by google what they are doing, and then asking them what they think about it 2013-12-25 13:03 no need, the guy already described it in the blog: http://makerflux.com/projects/my-new-cnc-router 2013-12-25 13:04 for an artist interested in milling tiny angel figurines from wood, the machine may be perfect while still completely unsuited for e.g. PCB milling 2013-12-25 13:04 http://makerflux.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dscn61192.jpg 2013-12-25 13:05 (not saying it actually _is_ not suited for PCB) 2013-12-25 13:05 main two complaints seem to be shitty wiring (I can cope with that), and the fact it requires a hardware parallel port 2013-12-25 13:05 I don't know the machine 2013-12-25 13:05 (the controller is *incredibly* dumb) 2013-12-25 13:05 no problem either :-P 2013-12-25 13:05 yup 2013-12-25 13:06 either buy an old PC or use a micro to reimplement half of the control logic 2013-12-25 13:06 actually that's better than the controller being incredibly fubar 2013-12-25 13:06 huh? use a usb-parallel adapter 2013-12-25 13:06 I suspect the controller is done entirely of 74HC series or something like that 2013-12-25 13:06 DocScrutinizer05: doesn't cut it. timings are off 2013-12-25 13:06 ummm 2013-12-25 13:07 with HW LPT port it even requires Linux RT, the regular one won't work 2013-12-25 13:07 errrr- ummmm 2013-12-25 13:07 prolly a job for a beagleboard or sth like that then 2013-12-25 13:07 an atmega would suffice :p 2013-12-25 13:08 yeah 2013-12-25 13:08 but, yes. 2013-12-25 13:08 it's not a problem for me either 2013-12-25 13:08 or simply abuse an old injet printer's control logic ;-P 2013-12-25 13:08 inkjet* 2013-12-25 13:09 that actually sounds much more complicated 2013-12-25 13:09 yeah, it is 2013-12-25 13:09 but it shows what grunt in MCU you need 2013-12-25 13:10 I can't think how a USB is too slow 2013-12-25 13:10 I think it's more the fact that it doesn't have guaranteed latency that's a problem 2013-12-25 13:10 well, not with interrupt transfer, which USB-LPT adapters use 2013-12-25 13:11 btw: 2013-12-25 13:11 "You also need to be aware that there are not limit switches, and the system is open loop in design. The spindle speed control is manual, which is not too bad for a tool this small." 2013-12-25 13:11 even when you control the steppers PWM by bitbanging the parallel port's IOs, it still should easily do the maybe 5kHz with a precision of 8bit timing 2013-12-25 13:11 I'm not sure how bad is that 2013-12-25 13:11 aka phase modulation 2013-12-25 13:12 and requirement for RT-linux is basically nonsense. The developer just never heard of kernel drivers 2013-12-25 13:12 and high precision timers 2013-12-25 13:13 and IRQ 2013-12-25 13:13 it uses linuxcnc, not its own software 2013-12-25 13:13 yeah, and that got developed by a noob I guess 2013-12-25 13:14 of course you can't implement a PWM phase controlled stepper controller as a userland process 2013-12-25 13:17 but honestly, 480Mb/s USB2.0 speed should suffice to control a USB<->parallel converter pretty tightly 2013-12-25 13:17 that's really more about latency than bandwidth 2013-12-25 13:18 latency is a function of bandwidth 2013-12-25 13:18 and actually latency here is irrelevant unless this whole concept depends on meaningless IRQ events generated by the CNC-controller 2013-12-25 13:19 seems like it uses one input pin 2013-12-25 13:19 http://www.svxlink.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Screenshot-EMC2-Stepper-Mill-Configuration-2.png 2013-12-25 13:19 you could introduce a delay in propagation of control signals from PC to parallel port, in the range of hours or days, and nothing would change 2013-12-25 13:19 ah, that's just the big stop button. so... no idea why it needs realtime 2013-12-25 13:21 more reviews: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21625&s=eb6502d9f23c55f0468a93d9c1a9e425&p=112943&viewfull=1#post112943 2013-12-25 13:21 and the latency in USB seems like 1s * (2*8bit) / 480E6bit/s 2013-12-25 13:22 okay, okay, I don't know 2013-12-25 13:22 which is still pretty sufficinetly short in my book 2013-12-25 13:22 I've seen someone write that it doesn't work with USB-LPT 2013-12-25 13:22 maybe it's hands.drv 2013-12-25 13:23 sure it doesn't work with USB-LPT since the whole program is a userland program that not even has access to direct USB 2013-12-25 13:23 the critter seems good enough for the cost overall... so waiting for what roh says 2013-12-25 13:23 it's amazing the whole thing works at all - even with using RT-linux 2013-12-25 13:24 you regularly want to implemet the complete bitbanging on a kernel driver level 2013-12-25 13:24 and that driver of course won't use libusb ;-P 2013-12-25 13:25 it however easily can use USB OHCI directly 2013-12-25 13:25 EHCI whatever 2013-12-25 13:25 ... I don't think so 2013-12-25 13:26 EHCI is nontrivial to use 2013-12-25 13:26 and why would you want to reimplement it anyway 2013-12-25 13:26 I nevertheless think the whole software is written in c# and no idea about kernel level drivers 2013-12-25 13:27 thus they reverted to RT-linux and cranked up the scheduling for the process so it never gets preempted 2013-12-25 13:27 and probably do direct bitbanging to the parallel port 2013-12-25 13:27 from userland 2013-12-25 13:28 I'll just make sure that the first board I do with it would drive it from USB 2013-12-25 13:28 and that will end the question :p 2013-12-25 13:28 hehe 2013-12-25 13:29 then I'd want to replicate atusb/atbens reliably, that would be a good test of the machine 2013-12-25 13:29 * DocScrutinizer05 just idly wonders how they made libmomo behave under RT-linux 2013-12-25 13:30 unrelated: I also bought a roll of this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dry-Film-Solder-Mask-Roll-of-12-in-x-42-5-in-bigger-lenght-by-request-/161140135802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2584b3577a 2013-12-25 13:30 wonder how well it will work 2013-12-25 13:32 OT: Cree has really awesome LED products 2013-12-25 13:32 as well as several types of photoresist... I just want to go and properly test and document all the convenient (absolutely no screwing with toner) ways of making PCBs I know 2013-12-25 13:32 and figure out which ones work best 2013-12-25 13:32 a white HighVoltage LED with Ufwd=23V 2013-12-25 13:32 huh, 23V 2013-12-25 13:32 yeah! :-D 2013-12-25 13:32 do they have several junctions on the same crystal? 2013-12-25 13:32 or what? 2013-12-25 13:32 a 10W 5*5mm LED 2013-12-25 13:33 don't ask me how they do it, they say SC^3[TM] technology 2013-12-25 13:34 I found a few really nice things at cree.com 2013-12-25 13:34 the 10W LED is ~5EUR at digikey 2013-12-25 13:34 oops nope 2013-12-25 13:35 http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/en/XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT20E8/XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT20E8CT-ND/3770904 2013-12-25 13:35 talking about LEDs: I want to use this http://www.ebay.com/itm/231121837688?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649 for exposing the resist/mask 2013-12-25 13:36 seems I could make it distributed (spatially) better than with lamps 2013-12-25 13:36 more even 2013-12-25 13:37 that strip eats 24W, at 30% efficiency it's 8W of UV... more than enough for quick exposure 2013-12-25 13:45 pcercuei has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-25 14:09 my comment? generally you prefer a small concentrated light source for contact exposures of any kind 2013-12-25 14:10 ideally you'd have uniform parallel beams of light, from a light source infinitely far away 2013-12-25 14:11 the next best thing is a huge uniformly shining surface that has no minima and maxima 2013-12-25 14:12 so you achieve uniform exposure across the complete PCB even when the distance between light source and PCB is relatively short, like in the sub-meter range 2013-12-25 14:14 DocScrutinizer05: well, my thoughts were that 300 leds evenly distributed over surface is better than 2-4 lamps 2013-12-25 14:14 I'd dare to give a rule of thumb which is: the distance between light source and exposed object needs to be 10 times plus the size of the largest structure found in the lightsource itself 2013-12-25 14:15 so when your LED's are spaced at 1 inch, you should move away the lamp at least 10 inch from the PCB 2013-12-25 14:16 makes sense 2013-12-25 14:17 and of course your area of observation in the lamp is at least large enough so a point at edge of PCB "sees" the same when looking up, like a point in center of PCB 2013-12-25 14:17 means your lamp area has to be significantly *larger* than the PCB 2013-12-25 14:18 yes, that was my issue with my previous lamp. it was pretty tiny, about 15cmx4cm 2013-12-25 14:18 maybe 20cm 2013-12-25 14:18 or much much smaller ;-) 2013-12-25 14:18 mhm 2013-12-25 14:20 anyway, the size of the complete lamp also counts when checking for "largest structure seen inside the light source" 2013-12-25 14:20 unless the lamp#s size is way larger than the PCB 2013-12-25 14:21 it's all about unifirm exposure aka brightness the lamp creates on PCB surface 2013-12-25 14:21 and human eye is a pretty poor probing tool here, it doesn't notice */ 2 2013-12-25 14:22 photo resistive damn sure does 2013-12-25 14:22 I wonder if I could verify it with the photoresist itself 2013-12-25 14:22 like, expose it for five seconds, then develop... will it shed uniformly or not 2013-12-25 14:22 probably 2013-12-25 14:22 yes 2013-12-25 14:22 sounds feasible 2013-12-25 14:23 I'm just thinking of 4 mirrors forming an endless mirroring of original lamp 2013-12-25 14:24 that sounds weird 2013-12-25 14:24 but they need to be pretty good 2013-12-25 14:24 nah, that's not weird, that's simply a 4 walls enclosing the PCB and lamp setup 2013-12-25 14:26 so close to the lamp area from each of the 4 sides that when looking up to the lamp the PCB 'sees' and enless uniform area of one true and multiple mirrored lamps in all directions 2013-12-25 14:26 ideally gapless 2013-12-25 14:27 thanks, I'll consider this 2013-12-25 14:28 get 4 mirrors 30*80cm, build a square tube from them. then place your LEDs evenly spaced all over the one open end of the tube. Place your PCB into center of the plane of the other open end 2013-12-25 14:28 sounds complex but actually is pretty trivial 2013-12-25 14:29 yeah I got it 2013-12-25 14:29 except for the mirrors themselves which need to reflect UV light 2013-12-25 14:29 usual mirrors don't 2013-12-25 14:29 metal foil? 2013-12-25 14:29 yup 2013-12-25 14:29 eg thin Al foil 2013-12-25 14:29 alu foild maybe 2013-12-25 14:29 over say plexiglas 2013-12-25 14:30 :nod: 2013-12-25 14:30 afaik plexiglas is UV-transparent 2013-12-25 14:30 atleast it very much seemed to be transparent to me, seeing as the resist got exposed through it 2013-12-25 14:30 why not expose the alu foil directly 2013-12-25 14:30 it's not mechanically stable 2013-12-25 14:31 place it on top of some stable surface, like plexi or wood or steel 2013-12-25 14:31 use sticky or glue to fix it 2013-12-25 14:31 ah, right, I could just flip the plexiglas base 2013-12-25 14:31 so the foil would reflect UV directly 2013-12-25 14:31 yep 2013-12-25 14:32 as a bonus point it will shield whatever else there is in my room from UV 2013-12-25 14:32 yep 2013-12-25 14:32 pretty convenient exposure chamber 2013-12-25 14:33 not sure how much degradation would there be from occasional firing of ~10W lamp, but still 2013-12-25 14:33 right 2013-12-25 14:33 s/chamber\tower 2013-12-25 14:33 ;-) 2013-12-25 14:35 you could place a small hole on top between all the UV LEDs to peep inside, and a few red or maybe yellow LEDs for convenient illumination for human inspection 2013-12-25 14:36 and when you anna go fancy, you can even have a small string pulling up a mask that covers the PCB and protects it from any ambient UV while handling 2013-12-25 14:36 wanna* 2013-12-25 14:37 ooh, nope, as that would pretty much spil the mirror cabinet#s properties 2013-12-25 14:37 spoil* 2013-12-25 14:38 you could use a black plastic foil sheet to cover the PCB, and you pull up and out of the tower this whole plastic sheet with a string, through a hole (same hole used for peeping) 2013-12-25 14:39 sheet like "cloth" 2013-12-25 14:39 easily pull it out through a tiny hole 2013-12-25 14:39 since it folds up and slips through the hole 2013-12-25 14:44 it's always interesting what the body craves after a night of drinking. today, not just water but sugared water 2013-12-25 14:47 then for 'calibrating' you prepare a mask that has ... "40" "20" "10" "5" ..., place it in your chamber and cover it by a black sheet that comes out under the morror so you can pull it away step by step. Then you pull the cover until 40 is seen and uncovered and expose for 40s, then pull cover wurther until 20 is seen and expose for 20s. Then develop and see which number looks best. Let's ay it's the "10" then your optimum exposure 2013-12-25 14:47 time is 10+5+2+1 2013-12-25 14:49 when your numbers been like 1 2 5 10 20 50 100 200 500 2013-12-25 14:52 or you use 1 2 4 8 16 32, and expose "1" for one second, and everything N >1 for N/2 seconds 2013-12-25 14:52 whitequark: (cnc mill) looks nice. having the table split is a little unfriendly but the rest looks good 2013-12-25 14:54 that was about the second one. details are little hard to see for the first one 2013-12-25 15:04 DocScrutinizer05: USB imposes its frame timing. it's completely unsuitable for this type of basically GPIO control 2013-12-25 15:06 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-25 15:15 (10 W LED) it seems to be more like 2 W for continuous use, 2.9 V * 700 mA. the 3 A seem to be just pulse current. e.g., for a camera flash 2013-12-25 15:18 wpwrak_: I think that statement is a tad too oversimplified 2013-12-25 15:19 re USB 2013-12-25 15:19 it would largely depend on timing of that frames 2013-12-25 15:20 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 15:21 given those USB2parallel coverters easily handle GDI printers which often are no less stupid regarding in-device embedded intelligence and the amount of timing the host PC is supposed to provide for driving the GDI printer... 2013-12-25 15:21 (10W) nope, 3A/10W is coninuous operation 2013-12-25 15:22 700mA is just the test current 2013-12-25 15:22 for which color, efficientcy, forward voltage etc is rated 2013-12-25 15:23 you however need to take care about proper heatsink 2013-12-25 15:24 and I'm a tad lost there since I wonder how much of the power you feed to the LED is converted to light and which fraction actually dissipated for heating up the chip 2013-12-25 15:25 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 15:25 (usb) frame timing is 1 ms at least up to full-speed. they have slightly finer granularity at higher speeds but i don't know how much finer. maybe 4x or so on high-speed. 2013-12-25 15:27 so this means that, e.g., if you do something like read a register (not the case in a cnc mill, but just to give an example), it takes 1-2 ms: 0-1 ms to send the read command and 1 ms to get the result. 2013-12-25 15:28 on highspeed that should be faster 2013-12-25 15:29 yes, it's faster because you have, i think they're called microframes 2013-12-25 15:30 the whole communication probably can be done streaming data words to the USB->parallel latch 2013-12-25 15:31 and even when not, 4k/s new values appearing on parallel output seem fine grained enough a timimg to drive a stepper motor, even by PWM 2013-12-25 15:33 (microframe) it's even 8x, so 8 kHz 2013-12-25 15:34 I think for driving stepper motors you need Ft of some 100Hz 2013-12-25 15:35 so we have a headroom of at least factor 20 here 2013-12-25 15:35 for multiplexing 3 motors via one 8bit (10bit) parallel 2013-12-25 15:35 lemme calculate ... 2500 mm/min, hmm, doesn't say what resolution. let's assume 0.05 / 16 2013-12-25 15:36 that would be 13.3 kHz. that may be close enough 2013-12-25 15:37 where from you take that factor 16? for PWM? 2013-12-25 15:37 not sure if pulse timing also matters, though. it might. e.g., it's not just stop and go but you try to accelerate the motor gradually. so you'd vary the frequency. 2013-12-25 15:38 from "16 subdivided driving down" 2013-12-25 15:38 that's however on a *completely* different scale 2013-12-25 15:38 and knowing that for example my mill has a 62 um resolution. 2013-12-25 15:40 we're talking about that CNC3020 though, and that has precision of 0.05mm 2013-12-25 15:40 I guess precision >= resolution here 2013-12-25 15:46 yeah, could be. 30 um would be 500 um/16 2013-12-25 15:46 err, sorry, confused :) 2013-12-25 15:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na9-USi_hZQ 2013-12-25 15:47 awesome 2013-12-25 15:47 50 um repeat, 30 um resolution. okay. surprisingly close 2013-12-25 15:48 wpwrak_: btw your calculation missing a tiny detail: for full speed moving you don't to fraktions of a step on a stepper motor 2013-12-25 15:48 you operate the motor at full steps at maximum operation frequency 2013-12-25 15:49 you do fracion steps only for smooth *slow* movements or for positioning netween two steps 2013-12-25 15:49 so your factor 16 isn't relevant here 2013-12-25 15:50 and that makes my statement about factor 20 headroom look pretty good, eh? 2013-12-25 15:50 want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZOiNdkJ8SU 2013-12-25 15:53 dear china, please make a USD 500 mill like that ;-) 2013-12-25 15:57 (steps) yeah, not sure how that fractional steps vs. full steps thing works 2013-12-25 16:00 phew. 36 C. getting a little hot today ... 2013-12-25 16:01 may be the hottest day the second half of this year 2013-12-25 16:09 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-25 16:10 the fractional step thing works by giving (e.g.) 20% of current to phase-1 and 80% to phase-2, so the axis magnet positions on 1/5 of the angle between that phase-1 and phase-2 position 2013-12-25 16:14 the sequence is kinda like: 1; 1&2; 2; 2&-1; -1; -1&-2; -2; -2&1; 1... 2013-12-25 16:16 you can position between any of those 8 full steps by applying fractions of 100% current to either of both phases 2013-12-25 16:16 aka coils 2013-12-25 16:16 aka electromagnets 2013-12-25 16:17 oh, even analog regulation. fancy. 2013-12-25 16:17 PWM usually, yeah 2013-12-25 16:20 obvously you usually got a multiple of 8 steps per 360° rotation on most stepper motors 2013-12-25 16:20 up to 360 or more 2013-12-25 16:23 for full speed you often even skip intermediate steps and do "full step" 1, 2, -1, -2, 1... 2013-12-25 16:23 while the 8 step mode is calling the additional 4 steps half steps iirc 2013-12-25 16:24 sorry it's like 10 years since I last looked into that stuff 2013-12-25 16:27 hmm, the control box specs say "G Code" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code 2013-12-25 16:30 this however might mean the software "API" on the windows computer 2013-12-25 16:33 hehe, yeah. i think they also mention mach on the windows side 2013-12-25 16:34 AWESOME! http://www.jinlantrade.com/ebay/3020t/CNCusermanual.doc 2013-12-25 16:34 apelete_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 16:35 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-25 16:38 >>After installing the Mach 3, on the desktop, there will occur 3 icon as follows: XXXXXX Notice: do not open them, please restart your PC at first (if you open the software not restart PC,it need uninstall fully and reinstall it) << 2013-12-25 16:39 LOL 2013-12-25 16:42 see "Engine Configuration... Prts & Pins" 2013-12-25 16:44 >>Kernel: 25000Hz<< 2013-12-25 16:46 according to 2nd window "Ports & Pins" Mach3 doesn't do half steps, and particularly no step fractions 2013-12-25 16:47 looks like lowest level interface for a pretty standards hardware stepper controller: direction and step signal 2013-12-25 16:48 so the controller box of the 3020 has 3 stepper controller chips I'd guess 2013-12-25 16:50 via USB according to what you wrote, we can make the motor do 8k steps per second 2013-12-25 16:52 and that's it. the only problem with this limitation is that stepper motor can't go faster than that, and the 'noise' that's particularly relevant when moving two axis concurrently is determined by the jitter in that 8k timeframe 2013-12-25 16:52 I can't see the motors mechanically following any such jitter 2013-12-25 16:53 axis magnet's inertia is a pretty good lowpass filter 2013-12-25 16:54 which also means the timing of the controller must not jitter so much that motor skips a step 2013-12-25 16:55 all this can get handled by simply not moving the motors at maximum speed 2013-12-25 16:56 I don't see any basic showstoppers for a USB<->parallel converter 2013-12-25 16:57 I think on windows some of those (rather their drivers) can even fake a IO port number that the driver is listening to, to emulate a built-in parallel interface 2013-12-25 17:01 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-25 17:01 most of usb<->parallel converters (especially the cheaper ones) won't work - usually they're just emulating the printer interface 2013-12-25 17:05 http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/USB2LPT/index.en.htm 2013-12-25 17:05 :nod: 2013-12-25 17:06 I also just thought the Mach3 *might* use a definiton of doing fractional steps by applying PWM to the direction signal 2013-12-25 17:07 I never heard of sth like that in hw controller chips, but it would be pretty obvious a way to implement fractional steps 2013-12-25 17:09 hmm http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/USB2LPT/faq.en.htm 2013-12-25 17:09 Q9 is interesting 2013-12-25 17:14 ooh, "microstepping" not "fractional stepping" 2013-12-25 17:26 dos1: *excellent* find! :-) 2013-12-25 17:31 reading backlog 2013-12-25 17:33 wpwrak_: (good one) you mean the one from ebay? 2013-12-25 17:34 DocScrutinizer05: (1-2-5-10) yeah, figured, that's how I did it in the past 2013-12-25 17:34 (heatsink) for a self-adhesive LED strip with three hundred LEDs? how on earth are you suggesting to do that? 2013-12-25 17:36 wpwrak_, DocScrutinizer05: (pulse control) from the screenshots it seems that it has one Step and one Direction pin per axis 2013-12-25 17:36 yes 2013-12-25 17:36 oh, you found that already 2013-12-25 17:36 see http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund um den PC/USB2LPT/ for a adapter that might "just work2 for you 2013-12-25 17:37 * DocScrutinizer05 hates it when fools add spaces to URLs 2013-12-25 17:38 * whitequark is looking at http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/USB2LPT/ul-17.en.htm 2013-12-25 17:38 I think I can manage to assemble that myself, even 2013-12-25 17:39 do they have any in stock? doesn't look like there's been made a lot of them 2013-12-25 17:42 ok, doesn't seem that anyone sells complete devices at all 2013-12-25 17:47 DocScrutinizer05: I was looking for some usb<->lpt converter while working on that drawing robot - finally gave up and used some old laptop with integrated lpt to control it :D 2013-12-25 17:47 and the chip is EOL 2013-12-25 17:47 not stocked even 2013-12-25 17:47 whitequark: it's a DIY thing 2013-12-25 17:47 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 17:47 dos1: wow, a laptop with LPT. I don't think I've ever seen one 2013-12-25 17:47 DocScrutinizer05: figured 2013-12-25 17:48 whitequark: http://www.tholt.com/images/toshtop.jpg something like that 2013-12-25 17:48 maybe even same model, looks similar 2013-12-25 17:49 dos1: that's a murder weapon, not a laptop :] 2013-12-25 17:49 hehe :D 2013-12-25 17:49 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=panasonic+toughbook+cf-27&_sacat=175672&_from=R40 2013-12-25 17:50 dang, seems we think alike, eh? 2013-12-25 17:50 didn't notice >>[2013-12-25 18:48:46] whitequark: http://www.tholt.com/images/toshtop.jpg something like that<< 2013-12-25 17:50 since I been searching ebay ;-) 2013-12-25 17:51 oh, there's a replacement for that EOL'd cypress chip 2013-12-25 17:51 and whitequark, *my* link is a murder weapon 2013-12-25 17:52 DocScrutinizer05: sure sure. *writes down to never ever screw with joerg* 2013-12-25 17:52 yeah, particularly since I have the somewhat even heavier CF-29 2013-12-25 17:54 http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-TOUGHBOOK-CF-29-TOUCHSCREEN-Panasonic-laptop-Military-Police-RCMP-SWAT-/181286146497?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item2a357f11c1 LOL 2013-12-25 17:55 lol @ part of the URL 2013-12-25 17:55 though... WTF is RCMP? 2013-12-25 17:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n6mX8Q1waA 2013-12-25 17:56 56K modem... 2013-12-25 17:59 hehe, yeah, a funny relic in CF-29 2013-12-25 18:03 dos1: yeah, quite impressive. I also seen videos of divers operating CF-29 under water :-) 2013-12-25 18:03 though I don't recommend doing that "at home", the seals pretty often are _not_ 100% water tight 2013-12-25 18:05 anyway I guess when you get that 3020 CNC, you should get a dedicated PC for it right away, and better get one with parallel interface 2013-12-25 18:06 shouldn't cost you more than max 15% on top of the price for the CNC 2013-12-25 18:06 "when" already :p 2013-12-25 18:06 15%? pretty sure I can find one for free 2013-12-25 18:07 there's *tons* of old hardware lying around 2013-12-25 18:07 yep 2013-12-25 18:08 I really like that 3020 thing, for that pricetag 2013-12-25 18:09 almost temped to get one for me 2013-12-25 18:09 huh! guess that's a good thing 2013-12-25 18:10 * whitequark opens local ebay clone and sorts by price, asc 2013-12-25 18:10 swapping/adding the mill motor for/with a "printer" would make for a nice combined 3D-printer&mill, for really nifty hybrid stuff to build 2013-12-25 18:10 "pentium 100mhz, will give away for a liter of juice" 2013-12-25 18:10 DocScrutinizer05: hm, that is a very interesting idea 2013-12-25 18:13 duh! using a fibreoptic and focusing lens I guess you could do UV-curing for 3D printing *inside* a resin bath 2013-12-25 18:14 can you even send resin by mail? 2013-12-25 18:14 I doubt I can buy it here 2013-12-25 18:15 I have no clue which type of resin or other chemical would be used for conventional 3D light-curing printing 2013-12-25 18:16 apparently bisphenol-A based epoxy. eww. 2013-12-25 18:16 I'm not sure I want to touch that at all 2013-12-25 18:16 you are not supposed to _eat_ it :-D 2013-12-25 18:17 oh, it's not nearly as bad as pure phenol. okay then 2013-12-25 18:17 still... I don't need a 55-gal drum of stuff 2013-12-25 18:17 haha 2013-12-25 18:18 I wonder if you could do useful printing with a modified hotglue gun as print head 2013-12-25 18:19 could result in quite unique elasic objects 2013-12-25 18:19 I'm not sure they fit my definition of "useful" 2013-12-25 18:19 although they are sure unique. unique in their complete lack of applications? 2013-12-25 18:19 well, there might be *some* applications 2013-12-25 18:20 when usually you'd use silicon-rubber 2013-12-25 18:20 e.g protective sleeves 2013-12-25 18:20 yeah you can't really buy uv-curing resin here. it's either super-expensive specific stuff (special glues, dental, etc) or gigantic amounts from china or wherever 2013-12-25 18:21 contact the fabber scene 2013-12-25 18:21 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 18:21 they must have such stuff around 2013-12-25 18:21 fabber 2013-12-25 18:21 ? 2013-12-25 18:22 reprap? 2013-12-25 18:22 3D printer 2013-12-25 18:22 sure, there could be about three guys in entire RU doing that 2013-12-25 18:22 o.O 2013-12-25 18:22 duh! weird 2013-12-25 18:22 it's a very expensive hobby 2013-12-25 18:23 with $100/l resins? no way 2013-12-25 18:23 I thought particularly russian guys should be very interested in that sort of "let's see what can get done" 2013-12-25 18:24 they are. but with docs mainly in english, expensive hard-to-obtain resins with possible customs complications... very few people are going to go through that 2013-12-25 18:24 hmm, yet another weird idea: use a inkjet printhead to spit droplets of hardener into the 2 components resin bath 2013-12-25 18:25 1) afaik printerheads are very finely tuned to the specific consistency of ink 2013-12-25 18:25 2) you think it would harden fast enough? not sure 2013-12-25 18:25 (1) so the hardener wouldn't properly "boil out" or maybe will just flow through 2013-12-25 18:26 instead of epoxy "resin" you could go experimental and see what soluble glass gets you 2013-12-25 18:26 soluble glass? O_o 2013-12-25 18:26 ohhhh sodium silicate. I think it's sold here as glue 2013-12-25 18:26 that liquid based on silicon 2013-12-25 18:27 yeah 2013-12-25 18:27 sodium silcate 2013-12-25 18:27 you can add ethyl alcohol to it, it'll form a weird substance with nonlinear properties 2013-12-25 18:27 it hardens with some other chemical 2013-12-25 18:27 actually a number of other chemicals. Probably all metal salts 2013-12-25 18:27 at long timespans it flows. at medium it acts elastically (kinda like shitty rubber). at short it shatters in shards 2013-12-25 18:27 plus some acids prolly 2013-12-25 18:28 poor man's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_putty 2013-12-25 18:28 DocScrutinizer05: not sure about mechanical properties of the result 2013-12-25 18:29 me neither 2013-12-25 18:29 sounds like it would be fragile and/or weak 2013-12-25 18:29 well, that's a good start to do some experiments, no? 2013-12-25 18:29 yep, why not 2013-12-25 18:31 hm, it hardens because metal silicates form 2013-12-25 18:31 so that'll require a ton of metal salts 2013-12-25 18:32 quite possible, though i know it also hardens in free air, that's why it's been used to write on bottles with it 2013-12-25 18:32 maybe by the carbon from CO2 ? 2013-12-25 18:33 yup, also evaporation of water 2013-12-25 18:33 well, it's not water soluble once it hardened 2013-12-25 18:33 oh, it's not? I misremember then 2013-12-25 18:33 afaik not 2013-12-25 18:34 I think I heard it's been used for permanent writing on glass bottles 2013-12-25 18:34 mixed with chalk or some other pigment 2013-12-25 18:34 here it's used as a shitty paper glue 2013-12-25 18:34 like really shitty, it's really weak 2013-12-25 18:35 yeah 2013-12-25 18:35 it doesn't really glue at all 2013-12-25 18:35 about as much as salt water 2013-12-25 18:35 but it seems to even kinda mix with the glass of the bottles 2013-12-25 18:36 I dunno, just wild guessing here 2013-12-25 18:36 eh? how'd that happen 2013-12-25 18:37 I can't think of a substance that simply dries to a chrystaline form to really stick on glass bottles 2013-12-25 18:37 there must be more to it than just some shit drying 2013-12-25 18:37 van der waals forces can be quite high with glass 2013-12-25 18:37 and glass is also silica 2013-12-25 18:37 that uv curing epoxy is apparently used for gluing legs to glass tabletops 2013-12-25 18:38 and it sure as hell doesn't mix with glass... it's pure organic 2013-12-25 18:38 :nod: 2013-12-25 18:38 maybe the similar composition helps it somehow. I don't think they mix though 2013-12-25 18:38 the UV hardening acrylate glue I told wpwrak_ about 2013-12-25 18:38 yes, that's about the only thing I can find references to in russian 2013-12-25 18:38 not mix literally, for sure 2013-12-25 18:39 nothing _mixes_ with glass 2013-12-25 18:40 but some substances act on the surface of glass. E.G alkali substances tend to etch glass suface smooth 2013-12-25 18:41 I believe alkalis do dissolve glass, very slowly 2013-12-25 18:41 that's why it's dangerous to boil alkali stuff in glass pots, it may "explode" since there's no micro-scrs left in glas for the steam bubbles to build on it 2013-12-25 18:41 scars* 2013-12-25 18:42 >http://digitalfire.com/4sight/education/attack_on_glass_corrosion_attack_mechanisms_143.html 2013-12-25 18:43 apparently pH>=9 is needed 2013-12-25 18:43 which isn't all that high 2013-12-25 18:48 that's... 0.0022% solution of NaOH, if I remember anything from my chemistry courses 2013-12-25 18:48 >>Molten NaOH eats glass, as will a 50% boiling solution of NaOH; though at a lower rate. Doesn't touch stainless steel though. This is a well tried process for de-enamelling sheet iron articles which cannot be shot-blasted<< 2013-12-25 18:48 I guess that would just work extemely slowly 2013-12-25 18:49 when it's well tried, then I gather it works in finite amount of time 2013-12-25 18:56 ah, the old thermodynamics vs kinetics 2013-12-25 18:56 thermodynamically, you're a cloud of hot gas and a pinch of ashes 2013-12-25 18:56 kinetically, not quite so :p 2013-12-25 18:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Na_(Sodium).jpg <- imagine throwing one of those in water. mmmmm 2013-12-25 19:29 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-25 19:41 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-25 20:10 better back up first 2013-12-25 20:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY7mTCMvpEM 2013-12-25 20:30 "disposal of sodium" 2013-12-25 20:49 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-12-25 20:54 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 20:59 just flush it down the toilet ;-) 2013-12-25 21:04 put it in some coating that slowly dissolves and flush it down the toilet 2013-12-25 21:04 yeah, sugar-coat it :) 2013-12-25 21:05 that may actually be the perfect crime - all evidence will self-destruct by the time someone gets to examine it ;-) 2013-12-25 21:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU9ocXIjwcc 2013-12-25 21:13 of course, someone had to do it 2013-12-25 21:16 dandon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-25 21:29 ;-)) 2013-12-25 21:30 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-25 21:31 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 21:47 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 22:02 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-25 22:02 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 22:22 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-25 22:24 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-25 23:13 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-25 23:33 wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-26 00:46 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-26 02:15 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-26 02:26 lilvinz- has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 02:29 lilvinz- has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-26 02:29 lilvinz- has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 02:33 wpwrak_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-26 02:33 newcup has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-26 02:33 lilvinz has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-26 02:35 dos1 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-26 02:39 wpwrak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 02:41 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 02:43 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-26 02:45 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 02:50 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-26 03:38 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 04:37 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 05:02 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 05:39 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-26 05:40 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 05:41 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-26 05:47 okay, bought the 3020T 2013-12-26 05:47 the problem is that it's slightly above customs limits... I feel like they're going to fuck me plenty 2013-12-26 05:50 make a video and make $$$ on porntube ;-) 2013-12-26 05:53 that would likely be the most long and boring porn movie ever produced 2013-12-26 05:54 well. I hope that my mail forwarder is going to take care of it themselves (and charge me a small fortune, of course) 2013-12-26 05:54 that still beats dealing with customs by myself at any time of day. I've heard several horror stories 2013-12-26 05:54 love that concept of the "mail forwarders" ;-) 2013-12-26 05:55 you don't have them? 2013-12-26 05:56 we have postal mail and courier all the way into the country 2013-12-26 05:57 if customs decide to screw you, they do it on any path you choose 2013-12-26 05:57 except if you have someone smuggle it, of course 2013-12-26 05:57 well, this mail forwarder seems to do it legally, or at least doesn't bribe people too blatantly 2013-12-26 05:58 customs still want to screw *me*, but those guys have an army of lawyers trained for that or something 2013-12-26 05:58 and there is probably some kind of legal loophole which allows them to clear my packages 2013-12-26 05:58 * whitequark shrugs 2013-12-26 06:03 wow. I 2013-12-26 06:03 I'm watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv2mEQS7awE 2013-12-26 06:03 it has voice in german, yet google can show readable subtitles in english 2013-12-26 06:03 it truly evolved into skynet 2013-12-26 06:05 ah, they're written manually. nevermind :) 2013-12-26 06:07 well, automatic captions have been there since 2009 2013-12-26 06:07 and it works pretty well in some cases 2013-12-26 06:08 especially when a speaker's articulation is good 2013-12-26 06:08 i use it sometimes (via plugin in chrome) to automate subtitle creation 2013-12-26 06:17 his reflow setup is quite ingenious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KU3grl6Nu2U#t=165 2013-12-26 06:50 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-26 07:14 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 08:18 kyak: the prolem is it has a talent to create reasonably sounding subtitles that are total bullshit 2013-12-26 08:49 michael_lee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-26 09:03 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 09:04 whitequark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_158083&feature=iv&src_vid=b9FC9fAlfQE&v=jSZbkR9vNzI&noredirect=1 should give you some more ideas for your 3020 2013-12-26 09:19 Guest62213 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-26 09:22 DocScrutinizer05: that's really interesting 2013-12-26 09:22 thought it might interest you :) 2013-12-26 09:23 I was going to try milling stencils instead (the raw material, brass lists, is really cheap) 2013-12-26 09:23 but I'm not sure if that would work actually 2013-12-26 09:24 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 09:24 a set of two electromagnetic valves and a pressure regulator for pressurized air should do to push out a constant amount of paste per time from a syringe 2013-12-26 09:24 Coyo is now known as Guest45400 2013-12-26 09:24 forget about creating stencils with a mill, won't pan out 2013-12-26 09:25 you need laser cutting or etching to do stencils 2013-12-26 09:25 suspected it 2013-12-26 09:25 etching... could probably try that 2013-12-26 09:26 DocScrutinizer05: random idea: exposing the resist with a powerful UV led and an optic fiber with a CNC machine 2013-12-26 09:26 I'm not sure what could it give you though 2013-12-26 09:27 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-26 09:27 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 09:28 existing technique 2013-12-26 09:30 what's it used for? 2013-12-26 09:31 well, I can't recall details but I've seen exactly this moving light source technique getting used somewhere 2013-12-26 09:32 probably in pre-laser times, maybe somewhere related to offset printing or sth 2013-12-26 09:33 I see 2013-12-26 09:33 or really in professional PCB production 2013-12-26 09:34 also, his magnetic clamps are awesome 2013-12-26 09:34 even though duct tape would work too :p 2013-12-26 09:36 guess why I said the word "magnet" at least 50 times during last 4 weeks in this channel ;-) 2013-12-26 09:37 $ curl -s http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12.txt | grep DocScrutinizer | grep magnet -c 2013-12-26 09:37 21 2013-12-26 09:37 hehe 2013-12-26 09:37 but that's pretty close 2013-12-26 09:40 I actually suggested to wpwrak_ to fix his acrylic case with magnets. I thought of exactly the scenario in this video when doing so 2013-12-26 09:40 the USB2LPT guy made a makeshift scaffold for that purpose using scrap PCBs and superglue 2013-12-26 09:41 well, similar purpose 2013-12-26 09:41 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 09:47 for the ultimate smartass DIY reflow soldering I ponder to get some fluid to cook on my stove ;-) 2013-12-26 09:47 fluid? 2013-12-26 09:47 you basically can't do anything wrong when using vapor phase reflow 2013-12-26 09:48 oooooh that's really interesting 2013-12-26 09:49 use a 5L pot, pour in some 100ccm of 255°C reflow fluid, cook, throw in PCBA for 30s 2013-12-26 09:50 pot? a pressure cooker maybe? 2013-12-26 09:50 no 2013-12-26 09:50 I guess you'd need it to be airtight 2013-12-26 09:50 a simple pot 2013-12-26 09:50 won't the fluid escape? 2013-12-26 09:50 oh, right, that's the goal 2013-12-26 09:50 if it doesn't escape it doesn't regulate t° 2013-12-26 09:50 well, when you cook it too violently it will evaporate and escape the pot, yeah 2013-12-26 09:51 but usually it shall condensate on the lid you put on the pot 2013-12-26 09:51 apelete_ is now known as apelete 2013-12-26 09:51 pretty much like usual water does 2013-12-26 09:51 or you could take a fluid with a slightly higher boiling t° (but still within AMR of the components) so you can't overheat it 2013-12-26 09:51 but the fluid doesn't escape 2013-12-26 09:51 it is just "water that boils at 250°" 2013-12-26 09:53 maybe use a steel bowl with water in it as lid for the pot 2013-12-26 09:55 DocScrutinizer05: http://www.dow.com/heattrans/products/synthetic/dowtherm.htm ? 2013-12-26 09:55 it's even developed for exact that purpose, heat transfer 2013-12-26 09:55 http://www.smta.org/chapters/files/Arizona-Sonora_IBL_SMTA_AZ_Expo_2012Dec4.pdf 2013-12-26 09:55 yes yes, reading that pdf 2013-12-26 09:56 HS235 2013-12-26 09:57 Perfluorpolyether 2013-12-26 09:57 the show "Galden" brand 2013-12-26 09:57 they* 2013-12-26 09:58 http://www.daitokutech.com/products/galden/data/Saftydatasheet Galden HS235.pdf 2013-12-26 09:59 http://www.solvayplastics.com/sites/solvayplastics/EN/specialty_polymers/Fluorinated_Fluids/Pages/Galden_PFPE.aspx 2013-12-26 10:01 you think you can source it? 2013-12-26 10:02 dunno 2013-12-26 10:02 I bet I can get 1L from wuerth, via Nikolaus 2013-12-26 10:02 when he next time visits them 2013-12-26 10:03 or was it global components? 2013-12-26 10:03 our PCB soldering fab has quite a few cans of that stuff, I bet 2013-12-26 10:04 ok, HS235 seems not modern anymore, so use HS240 2013-12-26 10:04 http://hackaday.com/2010/10/15/vapor-phase-reflow-soldering/ 2013-12-26 10:05 http://www.ibrtses.com/projects/vapourphasesoldering.html 2013-12-26 10:05 HAH! 2013-12-26 10:05 yeah he uses HT230 2013-12-26 10:08 * whitequark shudders while looking at a stainless steel tray in close proximity to two live uninsulated wires 2013-12-26 10:08 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 10:14 yeah, a weird guy, and particularly I'd have used a simple waterheater 2013-12-26 10:14 there are even some that come with glass 2013-12-26 10:14 though usually they are stainless steel 2013-12-26 10:14 go lower budget: just use an electric kettle 2013-12-26 10:14 ~15 bucks at the store of your choice 2013-12-26 10:15 or did you mean just that? https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkjgw2lx2SKxgwaAQumIrFBRVhUu-YUifHeYvBKoUoMJlKn4Opgg 2013-12-26 10:15 kinda, yes 2013-12-26 10:15 you need to rework those a little, since they have a thermofuse that cuts out at 130°C 2013-12-26 10:16 place a 200°C switch at *top* of the whole thing, it cuts out when vapor rwches the level of the switch 2013-12-26 10:16 reaches* 2013-12-26 10:17 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 10:17 when you wanna go fancy, you get a dimmer for the heating and slowly turn it down while thermoswitch at top of pot is engaged and turn it up when switch is too cold 2013-12-26 10:18 I've a spare PID controller lying here 2013-12-26 10:18 then place some sort of heatsing on the pot for vapor to condensate there 2013-12-26 10:18 PID, *great* :-D 2013-12-26 10:18 heatsink* 2013-12-26 10:19 TIL: "tombstoning" and "popcorning" :D :D 2013-12-26 10:19 TIL? 2013-12-26 10:19 "The customer had severe problems with tombstoning" 2013-12-26 10:19 today I learned 2013-12-26 10:19 hehe 2013-12-26 10:20 hm, this actually looks kinda simpler than an oven for reflow, which I wanted to make once 2013-12-26 10:20 btw you could use silicon isolation for the wires, I'm rather sure it has no problems with either temperature nor the liquid 2013-12-26 10:21 and for sure this is more reliable 2013-12-26 10:21 (simpler) and WAAAAY better results I bet 2013-12-26 10:21 unfortunately there's basically no way for me to get the liquid 2013-12-26 10:22 it's classified as ozone depleting substance and prohibited from mailing 2013-12-26 10:22 convection reflow oven is a bitch to build and to operate 2013-12-26 10:22 DAMN! 2013-12-26 10:22 honestly I doubt customs here will give a fuck, they're much more interested in iphones than of 1L of some obscure goo 2013-12-26 10:23 but in the country of origin that might happen 2013-12-26 10:23 I bet# 2013-12-26 10:23 I'll probably ask you to send me some quantity of it when the rest of the toys arrive here 2013-12-26 10:23 hmm, depends where that country of origin is. When it's china, then no problems anticipated 2013-12-26 10:24 china would also be a way, yes 2013-12-26 10:24 Oh, I don't have any 2013-12-26 10:24 well, you said you can get some :p 2013-12-26 10:24 I said I guess I could get some 2013-12-26 10:24 eventually 2013-12-26 10:24 sure 2013-12-26 10:24 when prodding Nikolaus 2013-12-26 10:24 I'm in no hurry 2013-12-26 10:25 but actually that is maybe something I should do 2013-12-26 10:25 just to boost the fame of Golden Delicious and myself ;-P 2013-12-26 10:25 hehe 2013-12-26 10:25 and it actually might come in handy 2013-12-26 10:27 well, 200 bucks for 500ml 2013-12-26 10:27 I thik it might be worth it 2013-12-26 10:27 worth a try 2013-12-26 10:27 where'd you get that price from? 2013-12-26 10:28 err 100 2013-12-26 10:28 from http://www.ibrtses.com.nyud.net/projects/vapourphasesoldering.html 2013-12-26 10:29 >>Here I use Galden HT 230 with a boiling point of 230 degrees Celsius. For comparison, leaded solder melts at 188 degrees and leadfree solder melts at 220 degrees. This stuff is rather pricey, in the order of 100$ US per kilogram, which is about half a liter. << 2013-12-26 10:29 common mishap I do: apply normalization twice 2013-12-26 10:30 so 100bucks/L become 200bucks/500mL 2013-12-26 10:30 err 2013-12-26 10:30 so 100bucks/kg become 200bucks/500mL 2013-12-26 10:30 see what I meant? 2013-12-26 10:31 yeah 2013-12-26 10:31 these guys sell it in single bottles: http://www.pchemlabs.com/product.asp?pid=5081 2013-12-26 10:32 $1200/7kg, uh... yeah, pricey. 2013-12-26 10:32 hah, thought I might be right with the 200 anyway ;-P 2013-12-26 10:33 ooh, that's a different product 2013-12-26 10:33 HT-230 not HS-230, yes 2013-12-26 10:33 but it seems to have similar properties 2013-12-26 10:33 >>Galden HT-230 sold here by the 7 kg (15.4 lbs) containers is used for applications with component immersion, wafer etching, ion implantation, radar equipment, transformers, power supplies, UF6 production, chillers, cooling towers, and freeze dryers. 2013-12-26 10:33 >radar equipment... UF6 production... 2013-12-26 10:33 you'd probably end up on some list buying that 2013-12-26 10:36 http://forum.mikrokopter.de/topic-post324253.html#post324253 2013-12-26 10:38 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 10:44 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altering-the-paste-mask-for-correct-paste-coverage-on-large-pads/msg191308/?PHPSESSID=9f509da40ca29ca40cb033585f42a163#msg191308 2013-12-26 10:44 > 2013-12-26 10:44 A vapor phase machine is basically a turkey fryer with a cooling ring around the top. 2013-12-26 10:44 hehe 2013-12-26 10:47 http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/ 2013-12-26 10:47 DocScrutinizer05: alternative fluids: http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=14752&#Message61730 2013-12-26 10:47 oh you just found it too 2013-12-26 10:51 http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/engineered-liquids/fluorinert-fc-70/ 2013-12-26 10:51 215°C 2013-12-26 10:52 >> 2013-12-26 10:52 The saturated vapor generated from boiling Fluorinert liquid FC-70 is very dense and easily contained. The fluid is typically used with solders like 63 Sn/37 Pb, 60 Sn/40 Pb, or 62 Sn/36 Pb/2 Ag. FC-70 liquid can be used in a variety of vapor phase reflow soldering applications, including: 2013-12-26 10:52 BGA attach 2013-12-26 10:53 yeah, 215 would be for leaded, not lead-free 2013-12-26 10:53 though I say fuck lead-free anyway 2013-12-26 10:53 yep 2013-12-26 10:53 too much hassle for prototypes 2013-12-26 10:53 the problem is you can't mix lead free with leaded, really 2013-12-26 10:53 though I forgot why 2013-12-26 10:54 read it a week or two ago, somewhere 2013-12-26 10:54 that vapour-phase soldering pdf you posted, had a bullet point that you could mix leaded and lead-free with VPS 2013-12-26 10:54 while reading about VP 2013-12-26 10:54 hmm, I also think it might be worth a try ;-D 2013-12-26 10:56 yeah, actually 235 was the compromise temp for mixed leadfree and lead production, not requiring to swap liquid of your VP reflow machine 2013-12-26 10:58 fluorinert seems to be equally hard to obtain... 2013-12-26 10:58 same substance 2013-12-26 10:58 this seems to have 3/4 gal bottles with MOQ=1 http://www.amsmaterials.com/products/Fluorinert-FC%252d70.html 2013-12-26 10:58 but "call to order" 2013-12-26 10:59 hm, interesting, it's not actually described as ozone depleting anywhere 2013-12-26 11:00 so perhaps it's possible to send it via mail after all... it's really inert (duh!) otherwise 2013-12-26 11:00 >http://hamptonresearch.com/product_detail.aspx?sid=185&pid=32 2013-12-26 11:00 $108/100ml, wow 2013-12-26 11:01 also from there: "Ozone depletion potential: 0 " so that's encouraging 2013-12-26 11:02 yeah, I gathered it's ozone neutral 2013-12-26 11:02 otherwise we couldn't use it the way it's used in German reflow fabs 2013-12-26 11:03 hm, this http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/engineered-liquids/ sends directly to canadian customers 2013-12-26 11:03 if by customer they mean private person then I know a guy who could probably resend the parcel wherever it's needed 2013-12-26 11:06 it's always a question where to look for a substance. As a random example I found a barrel with ~30kg natrium cyanide in a galvanic lab that been closed. Try to get 1g of that substance! ;-P 2013-12-26 11:06 uh oh 2013-12-26 11:08 same with stuff like KMnO4 2013-12-26 11:09 I found a barrel with a convenient remnant of maybe 500g alu powder at a printing company's junkjard 2013-12-26 11:10 prolly used as pigment for a special printing color 2013-12-26 11:11 I been mainly interested in the steel barrels and had an unpleasant "incident" when opening them at home 2013-12-26 11:11 this alu powder stuff is impossible to clean, once it got out of the flask err barrel 2013-12-26 11:11 I hope you didn't drop the barrel... imagine if it made a spark :p 2013-12-26 11:12 we just called it the silver pest 2013-12-26 11:12 had another barrel with gold pigments, prolly brass 2013-12-26 11:13 we called that the gold pest which been even worse 2013-12-26 11:14 my flatmates cursed me 2013-12-26 11:14 I had to promise to never again open any of those barrels ;-P 2013-12-26 11:15 but with a cloth over it, it made a nice little table 2013-12-26 11:15 hah 2013-12-26 11:16 alas I never had a chance to do some of my weird destructive chemical experiments with the substances in those 2013-12-26 11:18 I however guess the alu must have been passivated on its surface, otherwise it should detonate the barrel when you shake it 2013-12-26 11:18 wouldn't defeat adding it to some blackpower 2013-12-26 11:18 alu would be always passivated in air 2013-12-26 11:19 well, yeah, and during that it tends to catch fire 2013-12-26 11:19 ;-) 2013-12-26 11:19 only if the surface area/volume rate is high enough 2013-12-26 11:19 when fine enough 2013-12-26 11:19 which this stuff *definitely* was 2013-12-26 11:19 thus i think it must have been passivated 2013-12-26 11:20 otherwise it would've been too dangerous 2013-12-26 11:20 but any passivation is moot when next dust particle is an oxidizer ;-) 2013-12-26 11:22 blackpower alike mixtures containing metal dust are the strongest composite explosives afaik. Definitely they are forbidden for crackers in germany, since those crackers would be too strong 2013-12-26 11:23 you could also disperse it in air and ignite 2013-12-26 11:23 well, except mixture of liquid oxigen with a hydrocarbon liquid 2013-12-26 11:23 if you manage to get it in air evenly in a room, you could manage to collapse the building 2013-12-26 11:23 or replace liquid oxygen by tetranitromethane 2013-12-26 11:24 instantaneous reduction of volume by 20% tends to do that 2013-12-26 11:24 you can do same with flour ;-) 2013-12-26 11:24 was going to say that 2013-12-26 11:24 well known ,ill explosions 2013-12-26 11:24 mill* 2013-12-26 11:25 or coal, in mines 2013-12-26 11:25 see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast 2013-12-26 11:25 45% hexogen, 30% TNT, 20% Al powder 2013-12-26 11:25 I prefer mixtures of oxygen and acetylene ;-) 2013-12-26 11:26 over flour 2013-12-26 11:26 what gives? 2013-12-26 11:26 easily obtainable from welding device, easily filled into bags or balloons 2013-12-26 11:27 gives quite a BOOM 2013-12-26 11:27 toldya my experiments are often a tad weird ;-D 2013-12-26 11:28 who doesn't like exploding stuff? 2013-12-26 11:28 except OSHA 2013-12-26 11:28 but those guys are who's weird 2013-12-26 11:30 most annoying problem always been grinding the substances. KMnO4 is incredibly hard 2013-12-26 11:31 even ruined a coffee mill 2013-12-26 11:31 maybe you could dissolve and reprecipitate it 2013-12-26 11:31 with the right parameters you could get a fine powder as the output 2013-12-26 11:31 just pondered about it 2013-12-26 11:34 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-26 11:35 on the alu powder: it been fluffy like power sugar and when you tolted the barrel it started to flow almost like a liquid 2013-12-26 11:35 tilted* 2013-12-26 11:36 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-12-26 11:36 pretty weird stuff 2013-12-26 11:37 oh yeah, and iirc there actually been some warning signs on the barrel 2013-12-26 11:37 (this been like 30 years ago) 2013-12-26 11:38 didn't that ring any bells? :p 2013-12-26 11:38 sure, that's why I took those barrels with me :-) 2013-12-26 11:38 well, and because the barrels themselves were kinda cool 2013-12-26 11:39 and were sitting next to the litter container 2013-12-26 11:41 really that stuff been terribly sticky 2013-12-26 11:41 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 11:42 no matter what you put in to the power, you pulled it out completely covered by silver 2013-12-26 11:42 which been impossible to remove completely 2013-12-26 11:44 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-26 11:44 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-26 11:45 http://xkcd.com/242/ 2013-12-26 11:49 LOL http://homescience.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/how-to-make-aluminum-powder/ 2013-12-26 11:51 yeah @ xkcd 2013-12-26 11:52 my friend calls me "Mr Feynman" 2013-12-26 11:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surely_You're_Joking,_Mr._Feynman! 2013-12-26 11:59 aah, better procedure to grind alu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaF0i0qLyuI&noredirect=1 2013-12-26 12:20 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-26 12:22 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 12:22 (magnet) i don't like them so much. also because they can mess up things in their vicinity. e.g., credit cards. 2013-12-26 12:23 if you still use magnetic stripe cards in 2013, you deserve that 2013-12-26 12:24 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 12:29 huh, 3020T is shipped already. quick. 2013-12-26 12:52 WOW 2013-12-26 12:53 btw I found some awesome "electronics for bloody noobs, creating stuff that really works": http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/schematic.htm 2013-12-26 12:54 the design is a tad... simplistic (e.g. has no true PID you'd expect to find in a proper design), but it really explains stuff 2013-12-26 12:54 look at this: http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/infraredemitter.htm 2013-12-26 12:59 though it seems to miss some drawings or info boxes. The question "How do you calculate the resistor in advance?" seems is never answered? 2013-12-26 13:01 LOL @ ""First, a little disclaimer, and a plea for help. I don't know why, but adding this circuit made my levitator stable."" http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/phaselead.htm 2013-12-26 13:02 you're adding the differential part of the mandatory PID regulator, fool! ;-) 2013-12-26 13:02 thus compensating for the inertia of your levitating object 2013-12-26 13:12 DocScrutinizer05: LOL the schematic is faaaaaar too complex 2013-12-26 13:12 I've did exactly that thing with literally: 1 hall effect sensor, 1 operating amplifier used in comparator mode, 1 power transistor, 1 electromagnet 2013-12-26 13:12 a few resistors also 2013-12-26 13:12 that's all. 2013-12-26 13:12 talking about their levitator 2013-12-26 13:13 well, you get a bouncy ball this way 2013-12-26 13:13 bouncy ball? 2013-12-26 13:13 but it may work 2013-12-26 13:13 object oscillating up and down 2013-12-26 13:14 naw it doesn't noticeably oscillate 2013-12-26 13:14 then I wonder how it works at all 2013-12-26 13:14 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 13:14 key word "noticeably". you could feel the vibration if you keep it by hand, but not visually 2013-12-26 13:14 aaah, that's pretty good then 2013-12-26 13:15 you're basically combining PWM with a very tight digital feedback loop 2013-12-26 13:15 I think it was an active Hall effect sensor... you'd supply it with 5V and in steady state it would output precisely 2.5 2013-12-26 13:16 then you'd compare its output pin with a tap on a 1:1 resistor divider. it's that simple. 2013-12-26 13:16 yeah, in such design even noise might introduce benefits to the design 2013-12-26 13:16 the system is catastrophically unstable outside of a local optimum though 2013-12-26 13:17 actually doing a random dithering of the digital output 2013-12-26 13:17 yep, that's the problem with such design, it has extremely narrow operation point 2013-12-26 13:17 window rather 2013-12-26 13:17 and no way to recover 2013-12-26 13:18 the simplicity is impressive though 2013-12-26 13:18 yep :-D 2013-12-26 13:18 you can do same with a laser for the light barrier 2013-12-26 13:19 hall sensors are way easier to operate. just superglue it to the electromagnet 2013-12-26 13:19 it's pretty difficult to start up such a system though 2013-12-26 13:19 ugh WHAT? a hall sensor??? 2013-12-26 13:19 hall effect sensor yeah 2013-12-26 13:20 or how do you call it in english? 2013-12-26 13:20 how the heck is it detecting the position of your levitating object? 2013-12-26 13:20 the object has a neodymum magnet attached at the top 2013-12-26 13:20 I wasn't attentive reading what you wrote 2013-12-26 13:21 yeah, but the heck the hall sensor will get massive interference of the own electromagnet 2013-12-26 13:21 now TAHT is a pretty weird design 2013-12-26 13:21 apparently it doesn't prevent it from working :p 2013-12-26 13:22 nah, it just increases complexity of the design by factor 100 2013-12-26 13:22 hard to tell what actually happens 2013-12-26 13:22 hm, someone just emailed me about Galden 2013-12-26 13:23 depends on exact position of hall sensor wrt to e-magnet, polarity of hall sensor, polarity of e-magnet 2013-12-26 13:23 did you ask anyone or something? 2013-12-26 13:23 basically you built an oscillator that doesn't need any moving object to oscillate 2013-12-26 13:24 me? nope 2013-12-26 13:24 me neither 2013-12-26 13:24 somebody lurking in here 2013-12-26 13:24 I guess so 2013-12-26 13:25 or you are already googleized 100% 2013-12-26 13:25 so the webshops don't even need to ask for your email addr anymore and simply send a mail when you visit the website 2013-12-26 13:26 ;-P 2013-12-26 13:26 I thought we had another 5..10 years until our world transformed into this nightmare 2013-12-26 13:26 google "real-time bidding" 2013-12-26 13:27 no I won't, unless I get TOR installed 2013-12-26 13:27 ;-P 2013-12-26 13:27 no seriously, that makes 1984 look mild in comparison 2013-12-26 13:27 and even that doesn't help 2013-12-26 13:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_bidding 2013-12-26 13:28 "Let's explain with a simple real time example: a user heads to a page on a website (the "publisher"), causing it to start loading. In the same instant the website ("publisher") sends out a “bid request” to thousands of potential advertisers saying, “We’ve got this user who is 30, Indian, male and based in New Jersey, US, and recently searched for return air tickets to Delhi, opening a page on our site. How much are you willing to bi 2013-12-26 13:28 they're literally selling you on auction, several dozen times a second 2013-12-26 13:34 OMG 2013-12-26 13:35 but yeah, seems to depend on cookies (so far) 2013-12-26 13:35 I have cookie policy set to "always ask" 2013-12-26 13:35 that is bloody annoying though 2013-12-26 13:35 and I honestly hate sites that try to place 3532 cookies 2013-12-26 13:36 yes, it actually is bloody friggin annoying 2013-12-26 13:37 I'd appreciate a small icon in webbrowser telling me "this site tried to place 3433 cookies which I all rejected" and I could click on this icon to see what been the cookies and deliberately accept one or some or all of them, for this time or permanently. On which occasion the browser automatically should reload the page with the updated cookie policy 2013-12-26 13:38 I probably should patent this concept 2013-12-26 13:38 like for popups, yeah 2013-12-26 13:38 someone probably made this already as a firefox addon 2013-12-26 13:51 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-26 14:07 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-26 14:13 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 14:13 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 14:19 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-26 14:27 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 14:51 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 14:59 grr, java 2013-12-26 15:01 what is the value of having a memory-safe language if you need a native library to access a goddamn serial port 2013-12-26 15:02 and the very second I load this native library it segfaults... 2013-12-26 15:44 grr, lead-free solder: when it's easier to tear the socket from PCB than to disconnect the plug from it 2013-12-26 15:46 actually, no, this is just some Molex contraption which is seemingly designed to be one use only 2013-12-26 16:04 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 16:17 zear has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-26 16:19 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 16:23 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-26 16:26 zear has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 16:36 whitequark: DocScrutinizer05 will be so envious ;-) 2013-12-26 16:37 hm? 2013-12-26 16:37 because you have a molex connector that resists all attempt to remove it from the board :) 2013-12-26 16:38 yeah 2013-12-26 16:38 well, I could it make come off, but only at the expense of destroying the PCB 2013-12-26 16:40 "will it blend" ? ;-) 2013-12-26 16:41 well, that shady component sourcer turned out to seem pretty promising 2013-12-26 16:41 so just *maybe* our molex headache soon will vanish 2013-12-26 16:41 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 16:42 unless we want to build more than 130k devices 2013-12-26 16:43 and I dare to say: 130k? screw that Nokia N900 display 2013-12-26 16:45 netcomponents.com that is 2013-12-26 16:45 wpwrak_: nonono, I meant that literally 2013-12-26 16:45 I tore it off the PCB 2013-12-26 16:45 even after that (!) I couldn't figure out how does one disconnect it without completely destroying the plastic 2013-12-26 16:45 as expected it lists suppliers that have no own online shop/catalog at all 2013-12-26 16:46 whitequark: sometimes it's tricky to open those critters 2013-12-26 16:46 sometimes actually impossible 2013-12-26 16:47 but usually just hard to find the way to 2break" it without rendering it dysfunctional 2013-12-26 16:48 often it needs drilling holes or cutting slizes or breaking off parts of one of the components to allow separation 2013-12-26 16:49 even more frequently it just needs brute force inserting a sharp screwdriver at the right point to open up the latches 2013-12-26 16:50 of course also semi-destructive process 2013-12-26 16:51 I hardly even seen a design where function critical parts are involved in a lock that can't get opened without breaking those parts - like contact springs that latch up or sth 2013-12-26 16:52 usually it's just the usual triangular plastic latches hidden inside the receptacle 2013-12-26 16:52 they also managed to place it in close proximity to two other easily damaged plastic components 2013-12-26 16:52 four actually, two other sockets, a buzzer and a jumper 2013-12-26 16:52 so soldering it back was one hell of a job 2013-12-26 16:52 sounds like a pretty crappy design 2013-12-26 16:52 rzk has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 16:52 osPID 2013-12-26 16:52 http://ospid.com/ 2013-12-26 16:53 it's supposedly hackable. yeah. 2013-12-26 16:53 the controlling software is also horrible, in the best traditions of vendor-supplied sw 2013-12-26 16:53 some shit written in arduino-like java-based environment (processing) which is hardly possible to get up without it segfaulting 2013-12-26 16:54 it works after all though 2013-12-26 16:55 what is that laser? http://www.ospid.com/blog/ospid-used-in-the-toorcamp-laser/ 2013-12-26 16:56 no clue 2013-12-26 16:56 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-26 16:56 friggin awesome blue lazor 2013-12-26 17:00 >> It’s built with twenty-four 1 Watt lasers taken from a Casio DLP projector.<< 2013-12-26 17:00 so about 800 bucks 2013-12-26 17:02 http://hackaday.com/2012/08/16/toorcamp-hackerbot-labs-giant-faa-approved-laser/ 2013-12-26 17:09 excellent unrelated comment: >>3) Redundancy theater is easy, while real redundancy is extremely hard. It turns out to be exceptionally easy to build a ‘redundant’ system that just creates a new and different single point failure. Now, that can be an appropriate solution, if and only if the new single point failure is one that you are aware of and is much, much more reliable than where you moved it from. But it’s much easier 2013-12-26 17:09 to just delude yourself into thinking you’ve built a redundant system, and self-delusion is the mother of all engineering failures.<< 2013-12-26 17:13 noticed it too 2013-12-26 17:13 ROTFL @ We controlled a 12kW laser using a PIC16F886…. --- quite the british comment I think serves best to original rant 2013-12-26 17:14 tbh I don't see any problem with that. PIC fails, laser burns a hole through whatever it's pointing to (you should prepare for that anyway) and/or explodes (same) 2013-12-26 17:16 there's about 1000 factors which could lead to either result even if the uC is intact 2013-12-26 17:24 yes 2013-12-26 17:24 that's why I enjoyed that comment 2013-12-26 17:25 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-26 17:25 also you usually build that stuff in a way so "simple" failures always cause shutdown 2013-12-26 17:26 * whitequark nods 2013-12-26 17:26 e.g. PWM gets triggered by edge and causes a constant amount of energy released. No matter what error pattern the controller freaks out, it usually won't deliver higher frequency to the controlling signal 2013-12-26 17:27 (netcomponents.com) oh, great. when do you expect to get that reel ? 2013-12-26 17:27 next year 2013-12-26 17:27 we hope to get that real (SIC!) 2013-12-26 17:27 well, that's a relatively easy prognosis :) 2013-12-26 17:28 we will contact suppliers next year January 2013-12-26 17:28 they exist and are in Germany 2013-12-26 17:28 \o/ 2013-12-26 17:29 china hangs it collective head in shame 2013-12-26 17:29 and updated that netcomponents entry a mere 5 days ago or somesuch 2013-12-26 17:30 so I guess they simply have a surplus of some 130k or whatever and want to get rif of it 2013-12-26 17:30 rid even 2013-12-26 17:31 they are not interested in selling to the unwashed masses via an own outlet, running own helpdesk and whatnot 2013-12-26 17:32 thus they send such offers to netcomponents.com or the like 2013-12-26 17:32 which makes for a convenient net presence for their selling 2013-12-26 17:33 at least that's my uneducated take on it so far 2013-12-26 17:33 neat. so that was a good place to find. 2013-12-26 17:33 after all 130k of a 8ct component... :-/ 2013-12-26 17:33 not worth the hassle 2013-12-26 17:34 how many will you buy :) 2013-12-26 17:34 not 130k ;-P 2013-12-26 17:35 DocScrutinizer05: talking about pyrophoric metal powders: http://homechemistry.blogspot.ru/2008/03/hand-warmers.html 2013-12-26 17:36 hehe 2013-12-26 17:36 you could buy them all, make a site 5000246491.com and sell them with some 500% margin to all the desperate souls who want to fix old n900 :) 2013-12-26 17:36 dafaq, frowards me to adobe flash 2013-12-26 17:36 F U whoever you are! 2013-12-26 17:37 wpwrak_: that component hardly ever breaks on a N900 2013-12-26 17:38 ah, pity 2013-12-26 17:38 so much about establishing a one-click monopoly 2013-12-26 17:41 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-26 17:42 I'm still staggered at that LED of size 1.0*0.5*0.3mm 2013-12-26 17:42 "lens" 1.0*0.3 sideways 2013-12-26 17:43 it's even half the size of those http://play.qwazix.com/shared/_DSC5011.JPG 2013-12-26 17:46 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/#ic1590 2013-12-26 17:52 dang! does any of you hackers have a standard solution to run multiple identical I2C chips on one bus? (problem: address) 2013-12-26 17:52 gate the clock ? 2013-12-26 17:53 hmm, feasible, yes 2013-12-26 17:53 they often have a one bit address selection input 2013-12-26 17:54 \o/ 2013-12-26 17:55 sometimes more than one, even 2013-12-26 17:55 but I assumed that was checked :) 2013-12-26 17:55 ASEL0, ASEL1 \o/ 2013-12-26 17:55 LP5523 2013-12-26 17:56 LOTS of address bits to play with :) 2013-12-26 17:57 http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/26/plasma-desktopRV3389.png 2013-12-26 17:57 yeah, more addr than needed 2013-12-26 18:00 OMG http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/26/plasma-desktopbt3389.png 2013-12-26 18:00 ;-P 2013-12-26 18:03 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-26 18:04 seems it's time for a break and dinner 2013-12-26 18:05 Nation Security Council, NSA's evil twin ? ;-) 2013-12-26 18:05 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 18:06 national semi corp? 2013-12-26 18:07 probably just a cover :) 2013-12-26 18:07 oh, indeed doesn't show in my pics it#s NS 2013-12-26 18:07 or does it? 2013-12-26 18:08 national.com 2013-12-26 18:08 www.national.com might gibe it away 2013-12-26 18:08 give* 2013-12-26 18:09 of course, that can be anything, right ? a mean, NSA is national, too. and of course they're also concerned with commercial issues 2013-12-26 18:09 yeah, and I bet NS doesn't exist anymore 2013-12-26 18:10 redirects to TI ;-P 2013-12-26 18:11 which now has http://www.ti.com/product/lp5523 conveniently publicly available 2013-12-26 18:12 hehe :) 2013-12-26 18:12 at 0.85USD@1k 2013-12-26 18:13 wpwrak_: that's why I said "OMG! ;-P" 2013-12-26 18:13 doesn' 2013-12-26 18:13 t seem overly pricy 2013-12-26 18:14 hmm, accuweather.com have a special symbol for when it really gets hot. instead of a sun, they show a thermometer.i guess the 38 C of the last days weren't enough 2013-12-26 18:15 yeah, so I guess we can afford to have 3 of them instead of just one 2013-12-26 18:15 LOL 2013-12-26 18:15 dunno what's your local rating on ambient temperatures 2013-12-26 18:16 I'd prefer them to the weather around here anyway 2013-12-26 18:17 dang, still waiting for a single donation today 2013-12-26 18:17 could become the second day without anything happening, in Neo900 history 2013-12-26 18:18 and indeed, these days are by a good margin the hottest of the entire year. january peaks were around 36 and 37, but then only for a day or two. this time we seem to have an entire week with peaks 37-38 every day. let's see if it makes 40 :) 2013-12-26 18:18 * DocScrutinizer05 feels like visiting wpwrak_ and asking for a proper BBQ 2013-12-26 18:19 normally the maximum temperature should be around 30 +/- 2 2013-12-26 18:19 we were struggling with it on the 24 2013-12-26 18:20 because it was so hot, we ate much less than expected 2013-12-26 18:20 as long as the deviation from average doesn't cause worse effects like they see them in USA and Canada these days 2013-12-26 18:21 we get that, too. and there's a thunderstorm predicted for today. but apparently it won't be able to lower the temperatures. i'm curious how that might work 2013-12-26 18:21 eeew 2013-12-26 18:21 sounds nasty 2013-12-26 18:21 last night was a tad unpleasant: minimum temperature was 25 C ... 2013-12-26 18:21 well, when you go offline, we know what's up 2013-12-26 18:22 you got your Yamaha PSU meanwhile? 2013-12-26 18:22 seems to be a nice little critter 2013-12-26 18:23 well, time to go to the post office and see if the book they told me they tried to deliver after sitting on it for a month can actually be picked up ... 2013-12-26 18:23 o.O 2013-12-26 18:23 what's the use of sitting on a book? ;-P 2013-12-26 18:23 also, do you still want THAT book? 2013-12-26 18:28 actually given the RGB LEDs are ~1.00EUR /1 and the white LEDs are 1.85, and we got 6 of them for kbd backlight, the RGB solution is cheaper than the monochrome one 2013-12-26 18:35 nah, I used different qty to calculate 2013-12-26 18:35 actually they seem to be same price 2013-12-26 18:36 RGB 1.6ct cheaper than white 2013-12-26 18:52 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 18:53 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-12-26 18:54 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-26 19:01 (psu) naw, i still hope i won't need to do that. so far, i've been lucky - other parts of the city have been without electricity for some 5-6 days 2013-12-26 19:02 we had some cuts just the weekend before the big collapse. maybe they fixed something that helps us now 2013-12-26 19:26 larsc_ is now known as larsc 2013-12-26 19:28 one thing's for sure: you won't be able to get such a device when there's urgent demand for it 2013-12-26 19:28 that's actually the reason why I would get one myself when I had the money to play with 2013-12-26 19:28 anybody at the c3? 2013-12-26 19:29 too far, too expensive, too exhausting 2013-12-26 19:29 could easily burn a 500 bucks for those 3 days 2013-12-26 19:30 plus I got annoying stuff to sort at home 2013-12-26 19:31 it is definitly one of the cheaper conferences 2013-12-26 19:46 phew. "practical cryptography" has safely passed into my physical possession. also got a good look at our streets without power. one block away, several shops have generators on the sidewalk. 2013-12-26 19:47 and of course, that truck-sized generator a few blocks further down the avenue it still there. 2013-12-26 19:48 DocScrutinizer05: my hope is that demand will be low enough during january (holiday season) for things not to get worse. and then the average temperatures will already be a little bit lower 2013-12-26 19:52 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-26 19:54 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 20:08 another fun event: because of the heat, some piranha-like tropical fish went a lot further south than usual and attacked people taking a bath in a river not very far from buenos aires 2013-12-26 20:11 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/testicle-eating-ball-cutter-fish-could-heading-2251140 2013-12-26 20:12 this one? 2013-12-26 20:28 apparently this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomfret 2013-12-26 20:30 http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1650794-aseguran-que-la-invasion-de-palometas-fue-inusual-y-motivada-por-el-extremo-calor 2013-12-26 20:30 if you click on the small picture you get more and better ones 2013-12-26 20:31 so i guess they're all from about the same gang. grim look and plenty of teeth. 2013-12-26 20:46 hehehehehehehehe 2013-12-26 21:05 i plan be on c3 for 2014, finances are getting better 2013-12-26 21:37 wpwrak_: what's new ? 2013-12-26 21:39 anybody got any new 'toys' from Santa this year :) 2013-12-26 21:54 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-26 22:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 22:14 i got me a book on cryptography. make it harder to detect the embarrassing mistakes i'll certainly make in anelok :) 2013-12-26 22:15 yikes ! 2013-12-26 22:15 thought you going to crypto your brain :) 2013-12-26 22:16 so nobody can poke into it 2013-12-26 22:16 :) 2013-12-26 22:16 do you have picture of the board with the cell coin holder ? i'm studying the schematics and having a hard time understanding the GND and + point from the battery :) 2013-12-26 22:17 i can only pic of anelok with casing that is running on battery but nothing bare 2013-12-26 22:17 i like the stripped version :) 2013-12-26 22:21 lemme see ... 2013-12-26 22:24 this one: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/case-bot-clip.jpg 2013-12-26 22:25 it's just a strip of metal. not very reliable. but the best i can do at the moment 2013-12-26 22:27 thanks..let me check 2013-12-26 22:30 cool...that helped...i was wondering how the GND plane works..now i understand why you have all the different polygons filled...so those filled polygons is what kicad is called "copper pour" ? 2013-12-26 22:36 i don't really have a ground plane. i just try to have as much ground as possible. for a proper ground plane i would need a four-layer board 2013-12-26 22:41 so what is the correct teminology to use for anelok..is it to call it GND points or contacts something like that ? 2013-12-26 22:46 depends on what you're talking about :) in the case of the battery, "contact" sounds good 2013-12-26 22:49 cool...it's easier for my brain :) 2013-12-26 22:50 notice also that you have vias on the schematics...in most of anelok's photos i can't see any hole drilled in via's places ? 2013-12-26 22:50 or am i missing something ? 2013-12-26 22:52 i can't plate holes. so what i make non-plated holes and put a wire through them. that wire is soldered on both sides and then trimmed. so vias are those little "tents" 2013-12-26 23:01 looks like need to find out what is this "tent" vias 2013-12-26 23:06 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-26 23:06 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-26 23:08 ahh..now i understand .. http://www.pcbuniverse.com/pcbu-tech-tips.php?a=5 2013-12-26 23:08 tented via is just a via that is 'closed' 2013-12-26 23:09 so in anelok case the 'tented via' is not a hole but when etched it will be like a contact point 2013-12-26 23:11 it is a hole. but there's a wire inside. "tented" vias are still plated. but yes, they look a bit like what i have. 2013-12-26 23:44 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-26 23:51 pcercuei has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-26 23:55 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 00:03 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 00:15 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-27 00:44 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-27 00:46 do you compile anelok firmware on nanonote? 2013-12-27 00:46 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-27 01:05 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-27 01:31 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-27 02:08 naw :) 2013-12-27 02:08 nanonote is not involved there 2013-12-27 02:08 i only used it briefly for the first OLED and wheel tests 2013-12-27 02:28 rzk has quit [] 2013-12-27 03:12 wpwrak_: while having lunch i redid the top part of the design http://ctrlv.in/275842 2013-12-27 03:14 wpwrak_: this is before peeling off the blue paper http://ctrlv.in/275843 2013-12-27 03:18 just need bit of touch up with sharpie...hope can get the ingredients today so i can etch it :) 2013-12-27 03:28 yeah. looks fairly reasonable. a bit more ironing and it would have been perfect. 2013-12-27 03:29 and yes, the remaining imperfections are fixable 2013-12-27 03:35 the question now is...what will happen after etching is done :) 2013-12-27 03:37 need to find window$ machine first to flash the bootloader into the freedom board that i got 2013-12-27 04:29 wpwrak_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-27 04:29 wpwrak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 05:37 wpwrak_: i was looking through Freescale that anelok is using but i can't find any footprints information..how did you create the footprint in kicad ? 2013-12-27 05:52 wpwrak_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-27 06:08 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 07:15 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-27 07:16 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 07:35 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 07:42 panda|w530 has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-27 07:42 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-27 08:04 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 08:05 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 09:03 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 09:05 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-27 10:40 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 10:42 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 10:51 dandon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-27 10:54 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 12:17 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 12:38 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-27 12:40 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 12:42 wpwrak: got the peroxide but didn't get the hcl 2013-12-27 12:42 wpwrak: looks like another weekend etching for me :) 2013-12-27 12:42 wpwrak: the peroxide got 6% instead of 3% 2013-12-27 12:53 very good 2013-12-27 13:12 i was looking through Freescale that anelok is using but i can't find any footprints information..how did you create the footprint in kicad ? 2013-12-27 13:30 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 13:46 http://cache.freescale.com/files/shared/doc/package_info/98ASA00466D.pdf 2013-12-27 13:46 aka "dsv 48qfn" :) 2013-12-27 13:49 ahhh.....didn't see that...i was looking through files that has got the word FRDM* or KL24* or KL25 2013-12-27 13:49 seems like Freescale does not include the footprint info with their normal datasheet ? 2013-12-27 13:53 time to hit the sack 2013-12-27 13:53 good nighit 2013-12-27 13:53 night 2013-12-27 13:55 wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-27 14:24 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-27 14:25 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 14:56 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-27 15:13 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 15:13 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-27 15:14 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-27 15:27 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 15:27 fire is now known as Guest93338 2013-12-27 15:31 Guest93338 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-27 15:32 megha has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 15:52 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 15:53 back in power ... 2013-12-27 16:07 things you can do with a mill: http://habr.habrastorage.org/post_images/933/8da/56d/9338da56d29f148ee1575bd317c1b8a8.jpg 2013-12-27 16:08 these days of waiting will be hard on you ;-) 2013-12-27 16:09 totally 2013-12-27 16:09 the other thing that was hard was the realization that the remailer is going to charge me about $300 for that package 2013-12-27 16:10 I suddenly feel like dealing with customs 2013-12-27 16:11 hmm. mill is USD 500, shipping USD 400, remailing USD 300, ... so customs will be USD 200 ? :) 2013-12-27 16:12 no, free shipping 2013-12-27 16:13 and remailing is slightly more efficient since I could bundle packages from several other US-only vendors there as well 2013-12-27 16:13 it still sucks... 2013-12-27 16:14 ah, so that's what you need the remailer for - to get that US-domestic free shipping 2013-12-27 16:15 not quite (though that comes up as a bonus) 2013-12-27 16:15 remailer does three things, mainly. first it allows me to work with vendors who only send to US 2013-12-27 16:15 second it ensures quick (compared to EMS) delivery of intact packages (unlike EMS) 2013-12-27 16:16 third they do the customs dance 2013-12-27 16:16 $300 is their complete price, there won't be anything on top of that 2013-12-27 16:18 hmm, sounds like a courier service. except of course for the US domestic part 2013-12-27 16:18 that's pretty much it 2013-12-27 16:25 well, that's not only US. they have warehouses in US, UK, DE and CN 2013-12-27 16:29 still sounds a bit like a courier :) except that courier can't predict customs charges 2013-12-27 16:36 I believe the charges for these kinds of packages (they explicitly disallow bulk ones) are based on a percentage of cost and a flat rate on weight 2013-12-27 16:36 so it's trivial to predict them 2013-12-27 16:36 so, yes, it's a specialized courier service for ecommerce 2013-12-27 16:42 cost would still be the value your customs assess. they can decide not to believe the declared value. 2013-12-27 16:45 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-27 16:46 megha has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-27 16:47 right 2013-12-27 16:47 hopefully that does not happen :] 2013-12-27 16:47 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 16:51 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 17:00 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 17:16 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 17:42 pcercuei has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-27 18:01 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-27 18:14 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 18:29 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-27 19:07 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-27 19:15 DocScrutinizer05: btw, Chromium has the cookie blocking behavior you want, pretty much 2013-12-27 19:15 you can block all of them, it shows a tiny icon with a list of cookies, and you can click Allow for the ones you want. 2013-12-27 20:08 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 20:14 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-27 20:16 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 20:30 cool 2013-12-27 20:31 now if only I knew why I feel nausea when reading Chromium 2013-12-27 20:35 and God kill the Russian customs 2013-12-27 20:35 ask PaulFertser 2013-12-27 20:36 and those remailers or custom managers are even worse it seems, leagilzing bribery and charging twice for it being "legal" 2013-12-27 20:36 legalizing even 2013-12-27 20:37 iirc they asked 100..200EUR (equiv) from Paul for a N900 sent to him for a free development device, directly from Nokia 2013-12-27 20:38 customs fees are a function of the value, not of how much you paid 2013-12-27 20:38 in lime with the percentage of original goods value they try to charge you for handling that mill 2013-12-27 20:38 in line* 2013-12-27 20:38 but if you're suggesting to simply abandon customs worldwide, them i'm all for it :) 2013-12-27 20:42 how about taxes on ip packets ;) 2013-12-27 20:43 whenever you send a packet you have to declare its value 2013-12-27 20:47 you should propose that to ITU, that's where all the .gov folks hang out 2013-12-27 20:48 I should create an implementation first and then license the implementation for a minor percentage of the taxes ;) 2013-12-27 20:50 i think the insider term for this is "patent" 2013-12-27 20:52 "A Method for Taxation of Digital Goods" 2013-12-27 20:53 perfect 2013-12-27 20:54 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-27 21:01 DocScrutinizer05: yes I'm slowly coming to same conclusion 2013-12-27 21:04 really the question is what I can do 2013-12-27 21:04 *can I 2013-12-27 21:05 whitequark: make some friends at the airlines 2013-12-27 21:05 have it sent to some Poland friend and that friend transports it by train to Moscow 2013-12-27 21:06 customs at train are so busy with searching for cigarettes and other weird stuff, and probably have NFC about such a weird machine 2013-12-27 21:07 that would really cost about the same, unless I know someone who travels often 2013-12-27 21:07 and I don't think I do 2013-12-27 21:07 anyway guess why Russia is missing on the dropdown for destinations in GTA04-Neo900 order page 2013-12-27 21:08 I could also view this as universe motivating me to relocate in some nicer country 2013-12-27 21:08 I really wonder how a single company in russia can operate and earn money 2013-12-27 21:09 that I can tell you 2013-12-27 21:09 relatives? 2013-12-27 21:09 everyone, and by that I mean literally everyone, if they're not a multinational corporation, evades taxes 2013-12-27 21:11 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 21:14 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-27 21:20 whitequark: and with all the money you save on takes, even you don't have any income, you get rich ? 2013-12-27 21:23 wpwrak: I wouldn't say rich 2013-12-27 21:23 I don't know anyone who would qualify as rich, and that would probably be more complex than that 2013-12-27 21:23 it's more of a day-to-day business thing 2013-12-27 21:24 either you officially pay your employees minimum wage, or you pay taxes and immediately go broke 2013-12-27 21:25 for reference, minimum wage here is about $100/month 2013-12-27 21:25 and the state makes its money by selling oil? 2013-12-27 21:25 mainly a bunch of thieves ruling the state, but yes 2013-12-27 21:26 quality of life of people in big cities improves quite a bit due to oil money, too 2013-12-27 21:26 in relative terms that's an almost nonexistent slice of it, but in absolute ones it's a rather significant raise 2013-12-27 21:26 compared to what could be 2013-12-27 21:27 fun fact: there's about eighty fracking companies drilling right now under europe 2013-12-27 21:28 from russia? 2013-12-27 21:28 no, USA, Israel and others 2013-12-27 21:28 or a unrelated fun fact? 2013-12-27 21:28 it's kinda related 2013-12-27 21:28 see, the quantities of shale under europe are *enormous* 2013-12-27 21:29 our biggest (and hardest to use) deposit under Barents Sea is a dwarf by comparison 2013-12-27 21:29 (it's not even mined because it's so hard to reach) 2013-12-27 21:30 so there's an opinion that in very very near future, perhaps less than a year, europe's dependency on russian gas would significantly or completely disappear 2013-12-27 21:30 *quantities of shale gas under europe 2013-12-27 21:30 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 21:30 just wait for the more interesting returns of fracking ... 2013-12-27 21:31 if that happens, and I'm inclined to believe that it will, the regime will topple. however that would mean much worse things to ordinary people 2013-12-27 21:32 (more interesting returns) from what I can see, fracking, when done right, is a sufficiently safe technology 2013-12-27 21:32 so if europe gets their shit together and enforces regulations properly... good for them? 2013-12-27 21:34 here's an article, if you're interested: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Flleo.me%2Fdnevnik%2F2013%2F07%2F31_gas.html 2013-12-27 21:34 I can explain the parts Google screwed up... 2013-12-27 21:35 fracking is like nuclear power. Instant ROI, infinite waste disposal to *eventually* surface inevitably 2013-12-27 21:36 from what i've read, it's kinda impossible to "do right". you have to pump that hasty chemical cocktail down, and 1) you only have limited control over what comes up again, and 2) something like half your chemicals are simply lost 2013-12-27 21:36 DocScrutinizer05: i'd like to think of it as the equivalent of dynamite fishing with nukes 2013-12-27 21:37 wpwrak: what I gather is that currently fracking companies often just dump whatever they have extracted from the well on surface 2013-12-27 21:37 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-27 21:37 of course. they're not there to hug trees :) 2013-12-27 21:37 which is NOT how it should be done. yes, cleaning several Mt of water sucks, but it's not even going to put a dent in your profit 2013-12-27 21:38 maybe Kt 2013-12-27 21:38 oh, don't underestimate that. there's a lot that comes up and you also need to store it for treatment and such. there's a lot that can go wrong. 2013-12-27 21:38 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 21:38 that is true. what I mean is that the technology for doing it cleanly exists and can be applied 2013-12-27 21:38 but too often it is simply not 2013-12-27 21:38 meh, that shit stays down there 2013-12-27 21:38 and no everything comes up where you're ready to receive it 2013-12-27 21:39 until it comes up with water or whatever 2013-12-27 21:39 wherever 2013-12-27 21:39 isn't the whole point of fracking to reach under a layer of water-impermeable rock? 2013-12-27 21:40 as if there was such a thing ;-) 2013-12-27 21:40 often kilometers deep. all the aquifiers are waaaay above 2013-12-27 21:40 wpwrak: geology says there is :p 2013-12-27 21:42 if if it was as good as impermeable, by pinching it and worrying what's there out, you rupture that barrier 2013-12-27 21:43 #s/if if/even if/ 2013-12-27 21:43 the mixing will happen. don't worry about that :) 2013-12-27 21:57 in 500 My photosynthesis will cease anyway 2013-12-27 21:57 so we only need to ensure it stays there for next 500 My :p 2013-12-27 22:16 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 22:17 i was kinda wondering what "your photosynthesis" would be .. :) 2013-12-27 22:18 millions of years :p 2013-12-27 23:09 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 23:10 pcercuei_ has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-27 23:20 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 23:31 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2013-12-27 23:31 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-27 23:36 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-27 23:48 jurting has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-28 00:02 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-28 00:29 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 00:55 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-28 00:56 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 02:10 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-28 02:16 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-28 02:18 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 02:39 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-28 02:41 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 02:41 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 02:44 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-28 03:15 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-28 03:22 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 03:48 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 03:49 Is this the sort of place people would discuss things like Verilog and CPU design? 2013-12-28 03:54 we sometimes do 2013-12-28 03:54 though such discussions are more common over on #m-labs (ex #milkymist) 2013-12-28 03:55 Thanks, I'll go check it out. I'm looking for a new IRC channel to frequent 2013-12-28 03:56 both are good places :) and there's a large overlap in the channel populations 2013-12-28 03:56 What do you guys talk about here? 2013-12-28 04:00 oh, many things. the two most talked about projects here are the anelok password safe and neo900 2013-12-28 04:01 there's also a lot of less focused discussion, e.g., making PCBs, CNC, ... 2013-12-28 04:02 Cool, sounds like a fun place to hang around 2013-12-28 04:19 yeah. a bit quiet at the moment, due to the holidays 2013-12-28 04:20 All good, I used to hang out on a quakenet channel #sauerbraten, they were always dead half the time. 2013-12-28 05:03 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-28 05:16 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 05:24 JewFro297 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-28 05:53 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-28 05:54 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 06:04 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-28 06:27 half the time is not bad at all! 2013-12-28 06:29 i watched several IRC channels die in my eyes through the years. This one definitely hasn't even reached its peak :) 2013-12-28 06:30 i like talking about how IRC is dying, if anyone wants to join :) 2013-12-28 09:03 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 09:06 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-28 09:19 I like ranting about Jolla shooting their own foot whenever they see a faint opportunity to do so 2013-12-28 09:20 THANKS Jolla! This definitely will help Neo900 2013-12-28 09:20 "" some might speculate that we're only doing this to ensure neo900 gets enough funds"" 2013-12-28 09:23 doing what? 2013-12-28 10:45 you're getting close to 2^8 :) 2013-12-28 11:00 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-28 11:02 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 11:08 wpwrak: found a way to search for footprint and other package information for Freescale MCU 2013-12-28 11:08 http://www.freescale.com/webapp/search.partparamdetail.framework?PART_NUMBER=&buyNow=true&fromSearch=true 2013-12-28 11:09 replace with your MCU of choice...tried with MK20DX128VLF5 for Cortex-M4 2013-12-28 11:59 hmm, you did see dsv kl25 section 7.1 (page 45), right ? 2013-12-28 11:59 i think that's how i found it :) 2013-12-28 12:41 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-28 12:43 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 12:46 wpwrak: ahhh...interesting..... 2013-12-28 13:27 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 14:14 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 14:19 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-28 14:20 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 15:22 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 16:23 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 16:39 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-28 16:40 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 17:38 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-28 19:17 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-28 19:18 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 20:03 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-28 20:06 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 20:07 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-28 20:38 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 21:11 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-28 22:06 wpwrak: 2013-12-28 22:06 [2013-12-27 20:00:42] 254 to be precise. maybe we hit the 2^8 til 01-01 2013-12-28 22:06 [2013-12-27 20:01:24] I wonder if it ever will make it to the 2^10 2013-12-28 22:08 whitequark: they updated their bootloader to a lockedup version 2013-12-28 22:10 so much for "Jolla. We're unlike" 2013-12-28 22:11 DocScrutinizer05: good prediction :) three days to go and you're already at 0xff. 2013-12-28 22:13 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-28 22:25 (jolla) well, the world is generally moving towards more open smartphones. so jolla may be right there :) 2013-12-28 22:26 in other news, a big fat smoke cloud over the city. well, seems to have stopped smoking now. i wonder what that was. 2013-12-28 22:26 let's see how many helicopters they send to investigate. one was already there, then left. i hear another one somewhere. 2013-12-28 22:31 whee, more smoke. 2013-12-28 22:34 there's a big shopping center in that area. thinking of it, there are also two stands of fireworks right next to it. hmm :) 2013-12-28 22:56 wpwrak: time to pack that 500W laser back to its box, eh? 2013-12-28 23:10 hehe ;-) 2013-12-28 23:13 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-28 23:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 23:19 now .. what does that cloud formation try to tell us ? http://www.almesberger.net/misc/clouds-20131228.jpg 2013-12-28 23:20 ah, and this is smoke with helicopter: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/smoke-20131228.jpg 2013-12-28 23:20 wpwrak:(cloud formation) something approaching earth 2013-12-28 23:20 wpwrak: black smoke normally means wood :) 2013-12-28 23:21 wikipedia suggests it's cirrocumulus stratiformis 2013-12-28 23:24 and, still according to wikipedia, it means rain, or maybe not, or thunderstorms. ah yes, that's roughly what i expected :) 2013-12-28 23:32 nothing on the online news about the black smoke. yet another of those mystery clouds then, i guess 2013-12-28 23:33 wpwrak: for clouds, we name it "cabretes". Small goats. Altocumulus. 2013-12-28 23:35 hmm, could be Altocumulus perlucidus ... let's see what it does ... 2013-12-28 23:37 "weakening warm front". hmm. the forecasts say we'll have no rain tonight. doesn't quite feel like raining either. 2013-12-28 23:37 but tomorrow then. and maybe a big one on the 31st, around midnight :-( 2013-12-28 23:40 tomorrow may be fun. accuweather predicts "A dangerous t-storm". in the last days they used terms and icons i've never seen there before. 2013-12-28 23:44 JewFro297 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-28 23:46 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-28 23:50 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 00:38 wpwrak: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/clouds-20131228.jpg tells me that there must be a number of mountains some 10..100km from you, and the wind is blowing from that mountain towards your location. And I *guess* those mountains are ~30° left from the direction of your snapshot main direction 2013-12-29 00:41 hmm, you may drown in the atlantic while searching for these mountains ... 2013-12-29 00:41 if the above is correct then I also can conclude that you probably have a weather tight now that's too warm and dry compared to average 2013-12-29 00:41 ah, left .. that would actually be land 2013-12-29 00:41 well, the direction is a real guess 2013-12-29 00:42 and the mountains could as well be 180° opposite direction, but the clouds suggest they are either in front and left or behind and right of that photo 2013-12-29 00:43 (30 deg left) in that direction, there's for the next ~200 km the delta of the rio de la plata 2013-12-29 00:43 unless that's all weird symmetrical atrifacts created by a lot of airplanes 2013-12-29 00:43 180 deg ... that would be the coast or the atlantic ;-) 2013-12-29 00:44 now, mountains ... how tall ? 2013-12-29 00:44 those parallel cloud stripes are usually waves created by wind "jumping" over a mountain or cliff or sth 2013-12-29 00:45 how high? a few hundred meters could already suffice 2013-12-29 00:46 basically what you see as clouds are the turbulences created by that obstacle 2013-12-29 00:46 hmm, 100 m or so may actually be possible. don't forget that buenos aires is on the edge of the pampa. it's very very flat out there :) 2013-12-29 00:46 when you see those small parallel stripes 2013-12-29 00:46 but your idea may still be right, just different barriers 2013-12-29 00:47 we have: ocean vs. (big) river delta; water vs. land; open land vs. (large) city 2013-12-29 00:48 get a meteosat cloud photo 2013-12-29 00:48 should show where the turbulence starts 2013-12-29 00:48 the metropolitan area of buenos aires is some 30-40 x ~20 km, so it certainly affects the air patterns 2013-12-29 00:48 ah yes, that would have been an idea 2013-12-29 00:48 now i can't see anything :-( 2013-12-29 00:48 quite possible 2013-12-29 00:51 hmm, looks like something forming over the atlantic. more front than circle 2013-12-29 00:51 http://www.alpen-panoramen.de/panorama.php?pid=3362 2013-12-29 00:52 https://garten.landlive.de/videos/4329/ 2013-12-29 00:52 well, that was IR. vapour looks completely different. some big chunk just hanging over the general area. 2013-12-29 00:54 aah, show me pictures of snow :) 2013-12-29 00:57 pictures of snow? watch the Austrian news! 2013-12-29 00:58 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/weihnachtswetter-in-europa-schnee-und-sturm-behindern-verkehr-1.1850932 2013-12-29 00:59 eek 2013-12-29 01:04 http://www.wzforum.de/forum2/read.php?2,2280939,2281097 hmm, can't find the multiple cloud stripes 2013-12-29 01:07 http://www.kerschhofer.net/wetterkunde-paragleiter/leewellen.gif here you are 2013-12-29 01:11 http://www.sgoberaargau.ch/cms2/index.php?id=61 2013-12-29 01:22 http://www.mittelgebirgsleewelle.de/allg/AATIS08/abb14 Kl.jpg 2013-12-29 01:22 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-29 01:39 hmm, the big waves aren't so much what i was wondering about. more the small spots. 2013-12-29 01:40 the waves are probably air being pushed up by the warmth of the city 2013-12-29 01:48 the smoke have come from fires (of tires and such) people made in the street, as a form of protest against the power cuts. some have been without electricity and all that entails for ten days by now. 2013-12-29 01:49 a rather delightful argentine custom is to protest against the powers that be by making the lives of your neighbours miserable 2013-12-29 02:44 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-29 02:49 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 02:54 michael_lee has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2013-12-29 02:55 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 03:14 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-29 03:34 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-29 04:08 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-29 04:09 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 05:18 JewFro297 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-29 06:17 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 07:49 wpwrak: got the HCL now reading up on how to etch it 2013-12-29 07:49 wpwrak: still bit unsure about the amount to add for H2O2 and HCL 2013-12-29 08:46 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-29 08:47 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 09:06 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-29 09:08 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 12:32 nicksydney: about twice as much H2O2 as HCl. and don't make too much acid - it just needs to be high enough for the PCB to completely submerge. if your container has a nice flat bottom and it reasonably small, that will be just a few ml. 2013-12-29 12:49 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 13:32 or you use a conveniently fitting-in-size and tighly seal'able plastic bag 2013-12-29 13:33 of course you want to worl with this setup only over a sink like shower/bathtub, wearing rubber gloves and goggles 2013-12-29 13:34 otherwise it's quite convenient for the small amount of etch liquid you need, as well as for "stirring" the whole thing 2013-12-29 13:35 s/worl/work/ 2013-12-29 13:36 probably it's even a good idea to fill the bathtub/shower tub wit a 100mm high of water, so no spilled etch liquid gets in direct contact to the tub 2013-12-29 13:37 sometimes I feel like I'm on #chemistry 2013-12-29 13:37 :) 2013-12-29 13:37 using hot water even makes for a convenient way to warm up the etch bag floating in it 2013-12-29 13:39 make that 50mm, should suffice 2013-12-29 13:40 or even 15mm if you're stingy with water 2013-12-29 13:40 but then it cools down rather quickly 2013-12-29 13:40 you get the idea 2013-12-29 13:42 wpwrak: managed to etch anelok today...here are some photos 2013-12-29 13:42 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-29 13:43 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 13:44 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-29 13:44 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 13:46 (bathtub) interesting idea 2013-12-29 13:46 but if you work work reasonably convenient containers the spill risk is basically zero 2013-12-29 13:46 plus, you can seal them after use so you get to keep your acid 2013-12-29 13:48 wpwrak: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg 2013-12-29 13:48 wpwrak: http://ctrlv.in/276732 2013-12-29 13:49 tested with 2 dummy board before i etch anelok and now the H2O2 is almost finished :)...but still lots of HCL 2013-12-29 13:50 boy the HCL is strong stuff i pour probably 5-10ml and i can see bubbles forming straight away and eating away on the copper 2013-12-29 13:51 i used latex gloves as it's my first time was worried about spilling it to my hand..and most of the time i keep distance from myself when opening the HCL or H2O2 :) 2013-12-29 13:51 what you think of the etch result ? 2013-12-29 14:00 the picture is loading ... 2013-12-29 14:01 do you have a continuity tester ? (multimeter or such) in general the board looks pretty neat. but some traces look suspicious. could be broken. 2013-12-29 14:02 (gloves) yes, definitely a good idea. i always wear gloves with working with that sort of stuff. 2013-12-29 14:03 the board material is FR2 (pertinax) ? the color suggests it is. that would be a very poor quality material (easily develops mechanical problems). with FR4 (epoxy) you get much better results. 2013-12-29 14:06 (tester)...just used multimeter and most of the traces does connect 2013-12-29 14:06 let me check what is the board..it is a single sided board 2013-12-29 14:07 this is the board that i used http://www.ebay.com/itm/181179118937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 2013-12-29 14:07 it says "FR4 Copper Clad Circuit Board Single Side PCB." 2013-12-29 14:09 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 14:11 okay, if it's FR4 then that's good. they picked a strange color for it. 2013-12-29 14:12 how can you tell between FR4 and FR2 ? 2013-12-29 14:12 i was reading about Hydrogen Peroxide and i read that H2O2 is a bleach .. so does this mean that normal household bleach can be used with HCL ? 2013-12-29 14:13 you can tell by cutting into it with a dremel. the dust tastes different. but it's kinda hard to describe :-) 2013-12-29 14:14 wpwrak: ohh don't tell me i have to taste the dust...yuck :) 2013-12-29 14:16 wpwrak: (the dust tastes different) hahahaha 2013-12-29 14:16 (bleach) i wouldn't try mixing unknown chemicals with a potent acid :) also, many bleaches are chlorine-based, so that's a different process. the peroxide acts as oxidizer. 2013-12-29 14:16 (dust) well, as you cut into the board, the dust finds its way into your respiratory system kinda on its own :) 2013-12-29 14:17 *nod* it's just the sort of thing a seasoned engineer would tell a newbie one almost like a joke 2013-12-29 14:17 the image of you telling that to someone with a completely serious face cracks me up 2013-12-29 14:19 tomorrow will do the bottom part and will try to solder some parts that i've got 2013-12-29 14:20 ;-)) 2013-12-29 14:20 not sure what i have but hopefully the OLED that i've stocked up does fit .. didn't get a chance to check the stock taht i have :) 2013-12-29 14:20 the thrilled of having your first PCB etched is undescribeable ! 2013-12-29 14:20 it's like losing virginity :) 2013-12-29 14:21 nicksydney: these are the main traces that look a little suspicious: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nick-q-traces.jpg 2013-12-29 14:21 wpwrak: let me check with DMM for those traces 2013-12-29 14:21 could of course be just be harmless discoloration. your picture it quite blurry, so it's hard to tell 2013-12-29 14:22 (thrill) hehe ;-)) and it's even a fairly complex one 2013-12-29 14:24 (traces) all those ones that you marked does connect ... it looks bit thinner than other traces though 2013-12-29 14:25 would it be better if i apply solder to all the copper traces like how you did yours ? 2013-12-29 14:25 yes, applying solder is a good idea. that way, the copper is protected from corrosion 2013-12-29 14:26 ok cool...so lots of flux and solder ? 2013-12-29 14:28 yes, heat the iron well (you want 300 C, maybe a bit more). apply flux generously, then put a few small drops of solder on the PCB. 2013-12-29 14:28 then distribute the solder with the side of the tip of the iron (to you move it parallel to the board) 2013-12-29 14:29 what you want is a very very thin coating. as thin as you can get. 2013-12-29 14:30 risks: if you stay too long in an area or the iron "catches" on a trace and you're a bit too rough, you may shear traces off the board. that sort of damage is often fatal for the board. but since this is a test board anyway, you can experiment without fear 2013-12-29 14:31 wpwrak: will give it a go and see how it goes...ok time for me to hit the bed...and thanks for the tip...see you tomorrow 2013-12-29 14:32 another risk: of you get too much solder in one spot if can be hard to get rid of it again. a thick coat will make it hard to solder components since they will be on that "hill" and it'll be hard to hold them in place 2013-12-29 14:32 sweet dreams of copper oxidizing while you sleep :) 2013-12-29 14:42 wpwrak: is your design meant to show mirrored writing on the PCB? 2013-12-29 14:43 would scare the hell outa me 2013-12-29 14:45 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg hmm prolly not 2013-12-29 14:45 I guess nicksydney has a problem: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg 2013-12-29 14:46 not that this never happened to me ;-) 2013-12-29 14:47 actaully seems it just happened this very moment, in my brain 2013-12-29 14:48 dunno why my brain decided to mirror the writing on http://picpaste.com/IMG_20131229_194400-ffsBmdcJ.jpg 2013-12-29 14:48 o.O 2013-12-29 14:48 for some weird reason il looks like mirrored to me 2013-12-29 14:48 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 14:48 but it isn't. sorry for the noise 2013-12-29 14:49 http://ctrlv.in/276732 is dead 2013-12-29 14:50 (mirrored) i was just wondering ;-)) 2013-12-29 14:52 yeah, reading mirrored writing is so natural to me that sometimes I don't even notice, or like here just think it's mirrored when in fact it isn't, or the other way round 2013-12-29 14:53 and the indentation and huge CC-BY-CA vs small anelok plus the kinda weird fontset tricked my brain 2013-12-29 14:55 suǝddɐɥ ʇı̣ɥs 2013-12-29 14:56 I'd anyway prefer scans of the PCB to those photos 2013-12-29 14:56 they are almost as poor quality as mine usually are ;-) 2013-12-29 14:57 quite brave to try and spot bad traces in them 2013-12-29 14:58 s/them/it, since only one picture works 2013-12-29 14:58 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "quite brave to try and spot bad traces in it, since only one picture works " 2013-12-29 14:58 i was about to suggest that nick get himself a decent camera :) 2013-12-29 14:58 2^8 btw# 2013-12-29 14:59 whohooo !!! http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg 2013-12-29 14:59 well, it's just a random arbitrary number, not really relevant for the project 2013-12-29 15:00 just feels comfy for digital minds 2013-12-29 15:02 the procedure with using a plastic bag for etching has the major advantage of needing exceptionally small amounts of etching liquid, particularly due to good coverage and "stirring" 2013-12-29 15:03 you howeve must make sure to not "cover" parts of the PCB by plastic bag touching PCB surface 2013-12-29 15:04 constant pushing around the liquid in the bag however reliably avoids this as well as some other problems 2013-12-29 15:05 almost as good as a vertical cuvette with bubble stirring 2013-12-29 15:07 http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Datei:CuvetteEtchingMachine.png 2013-12-29 15:07 yeah, i would be concerned about covering the pcb. and also about holes in the bag. 2013-12-29 15:10 kristian1aul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-29 15:11 http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Platinen_selber_herstellen#.C3.84tzger.C3.A4te 2013-12-29 15:12 ^^^ maybe explains where from this nasty Fe(iii)Cl 2013-12-29 15:12 for foam etching it's first choice 2013-12-29 15:15 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 15:15 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 15:15 MEGA-8-Q ??? http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Datei:2BoardsFullyEtched.png .oO(???) 2013-12-29 15:16 pretty 2013-12-29 15:23 haha, just learned a new word: Baubeschrieb 2013-12-29 15:24 those Swissmen 2013-12-29 15:24 ;-P 2013-12-29 15:24 http://www.datex.ch/peter/eisenbahn/aetzen/technik/technik.htm 2013-12-29 15:29 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-29 15:31 ^^^ "Ätzmittel" has a decent explanation about how hydrochloric acis + H2O2 works and how to mix the etching liquid 2013-12-29 15:31 particularly: >>Sollten übermässig Bläschen aufsteigen, deutet dies auf einen H2O2-Überschuss hin, der zum Abbruch des Prozesses führt und der durch Hinzufügen von verdünnter Salzsäure wieder in Gang gebracht werden kann.<< 2013-12-29 15:33 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 15:33 kristianpaul has quit [Changing host] 2013-12-29 15:33 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 15:33 eintopf has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-29 15:36 eintopf has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 15:44 nice picture of cuvette: http://funkenflug.net78.net/aetzen/IMG_0786.jpg 2013-12-29 15:48 http://www.reichelt.de/Aetzgeraete-Belichter/-TZGER-T-1/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=23418&GROUPID=3376&artnr=%C3%84TZGER%C3%84T+1 :-D ->http://www.reichelt.de/Aetzgeraete-Belichter/-TZGER-T-S1/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=50260&GROUPID=3376&artnr=%C3%84TZGER%C3%84T+S1 2013-12-29 16:02 wpwrak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 16:02 wpwrak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-29 16:03 * wpwrak_ hates brown-outs 2013-12-29 16:03 hah 2013-12-29 16:03 UPS! 2013-12-29 16:03 nice read: http://www.reichelt.de/index.html?&ACTION=7&LA=3&OPEN=0&INDEX=0&FILENAME=C900%252FAETZGERT_S1.pdf 2013-12-29 16:04 dead battery :-( 2013-12-29 16:04 :-o 2013-12-29 16:04 that been a pretty short browout? 2013-12-29 16:05 or did you miss more than ~30s 2013-12-29 16:05 actually here it looks like 10s 2013-12-29 16:05 yeah. UPS said "beep !", PC went down, fluke reset (this one is always the most fragile item) 2013-12-29 16:06 my internet gateway pc made it through it without reset. else i have to wait about an hours before it's willing to power on again. 2013-12-29 16:06 the Reichelt etching stuff looks pretty convenient, also for "spare" parts 2013-12-29 16:06 looks a bit over-engineered 2013-12-29 16:06 etching isn't the difficult part of making pcbs :) 2013-12-29 16:07 cuvette small + tap 2013-12-29 16:08 actually no, it not the difficult part. But getting it right is significantly more demanding than just etching away 50% of your structures 2013-12-29 16:09 rule of thumb: the faster your etching, the more you damage the fine traces 2013-12-29 16:10 sure. but it's essentially the step that always works, even if you're sloppy. well, at least with a bit of routine and the right acid. 2013-12-29 16:10 :nod: 2013-12-29 16:10 and yes, high-speed etching doesn't work ;-) 2013-12-29 16:11 here's an example of what happens if you get too confident: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/rush-job.jpg 2013-12-29 16:11 nevertheless I just ponder whether using electrolitic techniques might give you some benefits in that step. E.G. tiny holes/cracks in the resist (whatever toner or photopositive) would maybe get sealed by gas that can't escape 2013-12-29 16:12 i actually have one that was even worse. a large but simple board with thick traces. there, the acid started to boil :) 2013-12-29 16:13 tiny cracks seem to slow down the acid enough that it can't make it through the trace. what you get then are these discolored spots. so for the average DIY board, that's still quite okay 2013-12-29 16:15 obviously you had to do the last few µm of etching in a non-electrolytic way anyway 2013-12-29 16:16 since eventually you get isolated isles which is the whole purpose of the process 2013-12-29 16:17 but yeah, that would stop etchin for those traces that are already isolated from the gdn fill pattern 2013-12-29 16:17 gdn 2013-12-29 16:17 damn! Ground 2013-12-29 16:19 so you could etch away for good all exposed and connected to GND-fill copper, and 10min after last such copper connected to the GND-fill got electrolytically removed, you can stop the process and start chemical etching of the remnants 2013-12-29 16:20 which should finish pretty fast then, without endangering your fine traces 2013-12-29 16:34 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 16:34 phew. more over-engineering ;-) just acid and a little flat-bottomed glass container works fine. no need to invent solutions for problems that don't exist :) 2013-12-29 16:51 pah, what a curious spirit is TAHT? 2013-12-29 16:51 whole world is just a collection of problems 2013-12-29 16:52 with this mindset you would eat your beef raw, since what's the problem that makes you discover fire as a useful tool 2013-12-29 16:56 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-29 16:57 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 17:22 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554 2013-12-29 17:22 hacking microcontrollers on SD cards :D 2013-12-29 17:24 That's pretty awesome 2013-12-29 17:50 dos1: http://haxit.blogspot.ch/2013/08/hacking-transcend-wifi-sd-cards.html 2013-12-29 17:58 JewFro297: omg these exploits are hilarious! :D 2013-12-29 17:59 I know, it makes me want to ride the nop sled 2013-12-29 17:59 http://i.imgur.com/K6WT20K.png 2013-12-29 18:01 mldr_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-29 18:01 mldr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 18:04 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-29 18:06 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 18:13 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-29 18:14 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 18:28 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-29 18:28 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 18:58 qi-bot has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-29 19:00 grmbl. the anelok board is acting more and more unpredictably :-( 2013-12-29 19:02 now i have a mystery resistance across the battery contacts of ~90 Ohm. when SW2 is off and R9 is absent ! that would mean a drain-to-gate flow through Q1. that's physically impossible, isn't it ? 2013-12-29 19:05 depends on how well the isolation works 2013-12-29 19:12 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-29 19:42 90 Ohm ? from drain to gate ? 2013-12-29 19:46 probably not 2013-12-29 19:47 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-29 20:55 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 21:08 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 21:28 morning....it's a beautiful day....2 days before 2014 :) 2013-12-29 21:38 wpwrak_: can you give me suggestion what is the best way to work with anelok now that i have top and bottom part on separate board ? ... what's the best way to try it out ? 2013-12-29 21:41 DocScrutinizer05: looking at neo900 donation chart...perhaps need more PR noise to attract attention ? 2013-12-29 21:47 wpwrak_: i was thinking last time about transferring heat for toner transfer.....perhaps one of this sandwich presser could help....http://doxz7msmg7sxx.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/7/image/592x333/c2f10b1d8f5a5ddacfb442b817d0e244/1/_/1_896.jpg 2013-12-29 21:48 DocScrutinizer05: reading some forum thread about firmware update Samsung released for eMMC in some Android phones... 2013-12-29 21:48 nicksydney: I can't think of any possible helpful noise we didn't already create 2013-12-29 21:49 guys from xda-developers reverse engineered the update protocol 2013-12-29 21:49 and analyzed the update for what exactly it changes 2013-12-29 21:49 dos1: mhm 2013-12-29 21:49 DocScrutinizer05: just thinking out loud..what about paper media ? 2013-12-29 21:50 dos1: I think the update protocol (fastboot) is public 2013-12-29 21:50 yup fastboot is public 2013-12-29 21:50 DocScrutinizer05: no no no, I mean eMMC chip 2013-12-29 21:50 internal firmware 2013-12-29 21:50 https://android.googlesource.com/platform/system/core/+/master/fastboot/protocol.c 2013-12-29 21:50 wear leveling and stuff 2013-12-29 21:50 sorry, you lost me 2013-12-29 21:50 oooh! 2013-12-29 21:51 they had a very nasty bug bricking some devices 2013-12-29 21:51 you say they update the eMMc controller firmware? 2013-12-29 21:51 seems like wear-leveler was mistakenly overwriting the firmware itself 2013-12-29 21:51 now THAT is something quite intriguing and new 2013-12-29 21:51 DocScrutinizer05: perhaps you must have discussed this already..but what about crowdfunding site ? perhaps that could help 2013-12-29 21:51 DocScrutinizer05: I know that CyanogenMod devs sidestepped the issue by not sending eMMC a full erase command 2013-12-29 21:52 just realized that it's really obvious case of exactly what you were saying regarding FSF policy 2013-12-29 21:52 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2096045 2013-12-29 21:52 DocScrutinizer05: but I never heard about the official fix though 2013-12-29 21:52 whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites 2013-12-29 21:53 Samsung published fix that was patching RAM at each emmc init 2013-12-29 21:53 dos1: HEHEHE indeed 2013-12-29 21:53 DocScrutinizer05: that reply wasn't for me 2013-12-29 21:53 after patching it was reading it back to confirm that it went ok 2013-12-29 21:54 so this Oranav guy REd reading it to dump whole firmware 2013-12-29 21:54 whitequark: sorry? 2013-12-29 21:54 DocScrutinizer05: maybe get Google's attention :) 2013-12-29 21:55 DocScrutinizer05: 21:52 < DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites 2013-12-29 21:55 whitequark: aah 2013-12-29 21:55 they patched out one function call to point to new function, which was just calling the old one, checking its return value and if it's 0, then it goes into infinite loop 2013-12-29 21:55 nicksydney: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites 2013-12-29 21:56 so eMMC on Samsung Galaxy Note II is now definitely user upgradable 2013-12-29 21:56 oh, that's Note II. I was talking about SGSIII (IIRC) 2013-12-29 21:57 hmm 2013-12-29 21:57 it's likely they have the same bug though 2013-12-29 21:57 Samsung Galaxy Note II GT-N7100, N7105 > Galaxy Note II, Galaxy S III Developer Discussion [Developers Only] > eMMC sudden death research 2013-12-29 21:57 quick google query confirms sgs3 suffers from same issue 2013-12-29 21:57 yep 2013-12-29 21:58 I just copied name from the begining of forum name, haven't noticed the later part :D 2013-12-29 21:58 and I'm not really up to date with all those android devices 2013-12-29 21:58 my interest faded away somewhere around HTC Dream :P 2013-12-29 21:59 nicksydney: (board) two separate boards are nearly useless :) you could try to make them overlap and tie them together with vias, but i have no idea how well that would work :) 2013-12-29 22:00 nicksydney: in any case, i'd recommend making a custom design for your experiments. don't try to make an anelok clone but something simpler. the anelok design will change anyway, so there's little value in making a clone 2013-12-29 22:02 (sandwich press) no idea :) i would suspect it to be too uneven (since your sandwiches don't care about whether they're off by 0.1 mm somewhere) and maybe it wouldn't even close completely. but maybe you could get it to work by putting the pcb on a piece of wood or such. dunno. 2013-12-29 22:05 wpwrak_: looks like need to "stretch" anelok into 1 layer and work from there 2013-12-29 22:07 or enter the beautiful new world of making double-sided pcbs :) 2013-12-29 22:08 btw, your photos tend to be quite blurry. smartphone cams usually aren't so good at these things. DocScrutinizer05 and i recently had a discussion about that. 2013-12-29 22:09 sandwich press? laminators are usually thought to be ideal for the task 2013-12-29 22:09 wpwrak_: will take some picture and post it 2013-12-29 22:10 if you plan on making photos of such things often and still have some favours left from santa, you may want to look for one of the "upper middle class" canon cameras. e.g., the ELPH 330 HS aka IXUS 255 HS may be fairly good (macro range is as short as 1 cm) and isn't very expensive. 2013-12-29 22:11 whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :) 2013-12-29 22:12 dos1: the xda-forum URL gives me http://privatepaste.com/a74bd4f1a8 2013-12-29 22:12 reproducible 2013-12-29 22:13 /usr/lib64/IcedTeaPlugin.so ? 2013-12-29 22:14 wpwrak_: need to borrow wife's 100D :) 2013-12-29 22:15 wpwrak_: favors from Santa is gone...all that is left are pocket changes for parts :) 2013-12-29 22:15 yeah, just started wondering as well 2013-12-29 22:16 DocScrutinizer05: that's java plugin 2013-12-29 22:17 well, maybe I should disable java 2013-12-29 22:17 but doesn't seem like this was the culprit 2013-12-29 22:17 nicksydney: 100D ... okay, that's a decent enough piece of equipment ;-) 2013-12-29 22:19 wpwrak_: so need to be nice to here otherwise only phone cam i have :) 2013-12-29 22:22 you may already taxing her patience with all the chemicals you're bringing home lately. these things tend to have a really low WAF ;-) (Woman Acceptance Factor) 2013-12-29 22:28 wpwrak_: yeah...that's why need to be very very nice 2013-12-29 22:29 guess why wpwrak_ is single :p 2013-12-29 22:30 whitequark: it's a tough job being a husband ..hahaha 2013-12-29 22:32 [2013-12-29 23:11:19] whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :) 2013-12-29 22:33 wow, what a opposite take than regarding thinking about new ways to etch stuff 2013-12-29 22:33 I knew you would be quick to notice that 2013-12-29 22:33 whitequark: indeed. and i hide the nasty bit (preferably in friendly-looking colorful boxes) when women are visiting :) 2013-12-29 22:34 wpwrak_: guess this is one of those nasty bits http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/cheers.jpg eh :) 2013-12-29 22:34 wpwrak_: an alternative approach, safer for your life, is to use that as a selection process 2013-12-29 22:34 why would I want to talk to people scared by the mere sight of HCl? 2013-12-29 22:35 DocScrutinizer05: i just think that if it worked great, someone may have mentioned it. a sandwich iron (well, if that kind of device exists in your area) should be easier to put to use than first modding a laminator 2013-12-29 22:36 whitequark: because those that go "oh cool, lemme have a sip !" usually aren't around to talk to ? :) 2013-12-29 22:36 (cheers) naw, that's just a friendly exaggeration ;-) 2013-12-29 22:37 it was a bit of a rush job, though, because the neo900 folks broke their barrier a bit too quick for my freezer to cool the glass properly 2013-12-29 22:37 wpwrak_: modding a laminator? no modding required, they work out of the box 2013-12-29 22:38 the rolls (or how are they called) are flexible enough to accomodate for a typical pcb thickness... 1-1.2mm for sure 2013-12-29 22:38 or elastic enough. they're covered in some kind of heat-resistant rubber. 2013-12-29 22:38 one thing i can say that i've tried and nobody has tried before is using the 'butt' of a hot teflon ... it works slightly worse than iron :) 2013-12-29 22:39 you mean frying pan? 2013-12-29 22:40 the smoke cloud i mentioned earlier: this is what it seems to have come from: http://cdn01.ib.infobae.com/adjuntos/162/imagenes/010/525/0010525285.jpg 2013-12-29 22:40 whitequark: yeah 2013-12-29 22:40 a cast iron one would probably work better. more stable t° and convenient pressure 2013-12-29 22:40 wpwrak_: is that some sort of pagan dance? 2013-12-29 22:40 (the building in the background is the one with the "barrel" roof) 2013-12-29 22:40 wpwrak_: seems like people having fun near the fire thre ? 2013-12-29 22:41 naw, people who have been without electricity and possible without water (because of no power = no pumps) for the last 2-10 days. they think it's a good idea to block streets, burn tires, and such. 2013-12-29 22:42 let's overthrow the government, sure that would bring more order in our lives 2013-12-29 22:42 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-29 22:42 whitequark: (laminator) a few do. most don't. one common issue is that there's not enough heat transfer. so you have to either slow the motor or (for the adventurous) increase the heat. another issue is that sometimes there are obstacles in the paper path that won't let a pcb through. 2013-12-29 22:44 (cast iron) yeah, more thermal capacity. also, less likely to bend from use. some pans do get a little out of shape with time. 2013-12-29 22:44 more likely to cause permanent brain damage, though 2013-12-29 22:45 whitequark: oh, i'm sure it would. argentina did this in 2001 and after a week of chaos, things calmed down and then the "emergency president" (just for one year) fixed a lot of things 2013-12-29 22:46 alas, the guy he placed as his successsor (still democratically elected) did not quite so well, and when (after 4 years) he was succeeded by his wife, things really went downhill 2013-12-29 22:46 wpwrak_: then why aren't you on the street? :p 2013-12-29 22:47 you guys should have a revolution every two years or so. keep those fuckers in check. 2013-12-29 22:47 whitequark: waiting for more useful protests :) i did go to the ones protesting against the government corrupting the institutions 2013-12-29 22:48 nice 2013-12-29 22:48 well, one every 6 years or so may be sufficient 2013-12-29 22:48 I wonder what would actually happen if the protests here were a little more successful 2013-12-29 22:51 (demonstrations) about a million people in the street in buenos aires alone. http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1524741-cacerolazo-8n 2013-12-29 22:54 dos1: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2096045 doesn't load any meaningful content in FF either, when rejecting cookies 2013-12-29 22:54 hah, sucks 2013-12-29 23:03 whitequark: another interesting photo: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1528829-el-8n-y-el-20n-las-dos-postales-del-obelisco 2013-12-29 23:04 whitequark: the left side is the demo from above. the right side is when the unions called for a strike against the government. there you can also see the size of that street. 2013-12-29 23:05 whitequark: all that was last year. this year there were mid-term elections, where the government technically did well (gained some seats) but fell short of its expectations (among other things, they hoped to have a 2/3 majority so that they could change the constitution to their likin) 2013-12-29 23:08 http://www.taday.ru/data/2011/12/25/1233322697/1.jpg 2013-12-29 23:08 wait, that actually happened two years ago?! 2013-12-29 23:09 about one year ago 2013-12-29 23:09 (fish-eye) looks like a nice event, too. what was it about ? 2013-12-29 23:10 votes stolen at election 2013-12-29 23:10 bah, bonsai-peanuts 2013-12-29 23:10 the whole deal kinda succeeded ultimately, the last presedential election was won narrowly but legitimately 2013-12-29 23:10 if you take that as success 2013-12-29 23:11 so you're left with the bottom line: most of russia is actually fine with putin 2013-12-29 23:13 he seems to have a fairly positive image in the world. being a bit of an asshole kinda goes with the territory. 2013-12-29 23:15 in the world? 2013-12-29 23:15 according to DocScrutinizer05 europe has a rather sober view 2013-12-29 23:16 okay, maybe not all of that makes it all the way here :) 2013-12-29 23:25 mldr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-29 23:25 mldr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 23:26 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-29 23:26 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-29 23:57 pcercuei has quit [Quit: brb] 2013-12-29 23:59 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 01:33 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-30 02:24 rz2k has quit [] 2013-12-30 02:25 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 02:27 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-30 02:39 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 03:19 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 03:24 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 04:20 Guest45400 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-30 04:24 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 04:25 Coyo is now known as Guest99036 2013-12-30 06:31 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 06:31 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 06:47 JewFro297 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 07:14 Guest99036 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 07:14 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 07:15 Coyo is now known as Guest64774 2013-12-30 07:21 Guest64774 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 07:29 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 07:30 Coyo is now known as Guest25714 2013-12-30 07:30 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 07:30 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 07:31 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 07:37 Guest25714 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-30 07:42 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-30 07:42 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 07:44 Codora has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 08:00 fire has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-30 08:21 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 08:26 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 09:07 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 09:09 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 09:12 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 09:19 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 09:21 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 09:21 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-30 10:31 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 10:36 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 10:39 uwe_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 10:44 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 10:51 good morning 2013-12-30 10:56 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 10:57 uwe_mobile has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:01 uwe_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:07 indeed 2013-12-30 11:19 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-30 11:20 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:33 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:42 fire has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-30 11:45 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:45 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:52 Codora has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 11:54 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 11:54 Coyo is now known as Guest55787 2013-12-30 12:03 nickoe__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 12:04 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 12:05 kanzure_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 12:06 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 12:06 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 12:06 nickoe has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 12:06 freespace has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 12:33 nickoe__ is now known as nickoe 2013-12-30 12:43 DocScrutinizer05: ooh, you rolled back to 255 ? damn 8 bit counter registers 2013-12-30 12:47 huh? 2013-12-30 12:48 well, usual undo for bogus donations 2013-12-30 12:49 somebody hit "send" twice, or 4 weeks ago somebody donated and CC finally didn't transfer / did reject 2013-12-30 12:49 or money transfer didn't arrive after 4 weeks or whatever 2013-12-30 12:50 Pledged: 53425.00 EUR Received: 52575.00 EUR -- click on "255 devices"! 2013-12-30 12:51 >>subject to corrections for cancelled/rolled-back transactions<< 2013-12-30 12:52 yes yes, i know. it's just funny to see it dance around the "magic" 1 << 8 :) 2013-12-30 12:53 Nikolaus back from his short holiday 2013-12-30 12:57 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 13:00 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 13:17 mth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-30 13:17 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 13:22 dnag! tapping the SIM data lines between modem and SIM voids the FCC approval 2013-12-30 13:22 so **we** can't do that 2013-12-30 13:23 re http://www.golem.de/news/java-sim-infizierte-sim-karte-schickt-position-alle-fuenf-minuten-1312-103603.html 2013-12-30 13:24 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 13:24 which is so old it already collected sufficient dust to make the SIM inoperable due to contact problems 2013-12-30 13:25 i see ... i see ... a few "0R DNP" :) 2013-12-30 13:25 me too me too 2013-12-30 13:25 :-D 2013-12-30 13:26 actually, those 0402 R footprints are pretty confusing when 2 R are parallel to each other ;-) 2013-12-30 13:26 "for diagnostic purposes" :) 2013-12-30 13:26 yeah, they are ;-) 2013-12-30 13:26 you never can tell from the footprints which orientation the Rs are supposed to be 2013-12-30 13:29 though we need a level shifter 2013-12-30 13:50 Guest55787 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 13:51 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 13:51 Coyo is now known as Guest39547 2013-12-30 14:01 apelete: your patch got merged upstream as a christmas present :) 2013-12-30 14:10 nice :) 2013-12-30 14:10 saw the usb driver got merged for 3.14 indeed, hooray :) 2013-12-30 14:11 larsc: now I'm waiting for the mips platform data patches to get merged too 2013-12-30 14:12 musb driver feature won't be complete without those 2013-12-30 14:13 larsc: are you back from holidays already ? 2013-12-30 14:14 no, I'm at the 30c3 at the moment 2013-12-30 14:15 what's 30c3 ? 2013-12-30 14:15 the MIPS patches will be merged, I know the person who takes care about this 2013-12-30 14:15 chaos communication congress 2013-12-30 14:15 https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/Main_Page 2013-12-30 14:16 didn't knew about that event, thanks for the link 2013-12-30 14:16 last day today 2013-12-30 14:17 nice. got back from Paris yesterday, got a couple of holidays left before going back to work 2013-12-30 14:18 hmm, is there a multiplexer design that does A<->Out for Control=1, B<->Out for Control=0, but A<->Out<->B for Control=highZ ? 2013-12-30 14:18 larsc: didn't have time to work on the nanonote during the week :-(, did a lot of work on the family servers instead :-) 2013-12-30 14:19 I hope to get back at it this week 2013-12-30 14:19 I didn't even pack my nanonote 2013-12-30 14:19 ha ha :) 2013-12-30 14:19 but somebody gave me one of werners wpan modules 2013-12-30 14:20 here at the congress 2013-12-30 14:20 nice 2013-12-30 14:20 * DocScrutinizer05 ponders a nifty combination of MOSFETs 2013-12-30 14:22 larsc: only one ? will be hard to find something to talk to then 2013-12-30 14:22 wpwrak_: yea, a friend said he'll send me a usb dongle 2013-12-30 14:22 DocScrutinizer05: use two control lines ? 2013-12-30 14:23 too obvious 2013-12-30 14:24 larsc pcercuei: I bought a gcw-zero from qbertaddict on #gcw, things should get even more interesting (and busy) soon 2013-12-30 14:24 some " 1 1: Not Defined, do not use!" will not suffice ;-) 2013-12-30 14:24 btw, i threw the reverse-voltage protection FET out of anelok. not only did it produce that mystery resitance to GND but i also realized that it could make low battery situations worse by throttling the battery 2013-12-30 14:26 reverse voltage protection is always a pain. Only feasible concept: fuse plus clamp diode 2013-12-30 14:26 one positive feedback loop into disaster less :) 2013-12-30 14:26 well, cr2032 can do it mechanically if the + contact is on the side and not on top 2013-12-30 14:26 sure 2013-12-30 14:26 already wondered what for you need that 2013-12-30 14:27 btw for a CR2032 you don't even need a fuse 2013-12-30 14:27 the only risk would then be that the circuit may not like VBAT to be shorted to GND, which is something you could still sneak past a mechanical barrier, at least for a short moment 2013-12-30 14:27 Z is high enough already 2013-12-30 14:27 yeah, Z kinda sucks :) 2013-12-30 14:29 the MIPS patches will be merged, I know the person who takes care about this 2013-12-30 14:29 I guess you're talking about Ralf Baechle, do you know how he manages his tree ? 2013-12-30 14:29 I guess a CR2032 must have several dozen Ohms ESR 2013-12-30 14:30 larsc: I mean, do you think the patches will be merged for 3.13 or 3.14 instead ? 2013-12-30 14:31 3.13 is already at rc6, and 3.14 merge window will open in mid-january it seems 2013-12-30 14:34 apelete: ralf is afk for a while, but blogic is taking care of the MIPS tree at the moment 2013-12-30 14:34 blogic asked me if it is ok to merge the patches for 3.14 so I assume they'll be merged 2013-12-30 14:35 awesome, thanks for letting me know 2013-12-30 14:35 apelete: http://patchwork.linux-mips.org/project/linux-mips/list/ 2013-12-30 14:37 DocScrutinizer05: about 20 while it's >= 50% full. the it rises slowly to 40, and then skyrockets in the last 10% or so 2013-12-30 14:37 larsc: ok, so I'd better let the process goes on and move onto adding dma for the MMC driver as we talked about 2013-12-30 14:37 http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/cr2032.pdf 2013-12-30 14:40 cool 2013-12-30 14:41 max reverse charge: 1uA. LOL 2013-12-30 14:41 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 14:43 huh, looks like I can't push my changes to gmenu2x' repo 2013-12-30 14:44 Permission denied (publickey). 2013-12-30 14:50 you still have your ssh key in your list? 2013-12-30 14:50 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/preferences/ 2013-12-30 14:50 yes I do 2013-12-30 14:51 and it's still the same 2013-12-30 14:51 [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: test (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/30524a0 2013-12-30 14:52 :p 2013-12-30 14:52 weird 2013-12-30 15:13 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 15:17 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 15:32 http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3960759.ece 2013-12-30 15:33 ... 2013-12-30 15:51 woakas1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 15:51 woakas1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 15:54 "To see the full article you need to subscribe" 2013-12-30 15:54 so who is putin now? :) 2013-12-30 16:06 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 16:08 hmmm, not really exciting 2013-12-30 16:09 Judo six dan? 2013-12-30 16:10 I thought he was more of sambo 2013-12-30 16:50 no, he tricked you into thinking that he is more of a sambo. Typical judo thing! 2013-12-30 16:51 ha, crazy war arts 2013-12-30 17:00 whee, more smoke: http://www.infobae.com/2013/12/30/1534043-espectacular-incendio-una-camara-luz-caballito 2013-12-30 17:01 yet another electrical substation went up in flames. since nobody could be bothers to turn off the electricity, the firefighters have been waiting for some 1.5 hours without doing anything. 2013-12-30 17:03 that's .. hmm, within walking distance from my place.let's see if i can see the smoke 2013-12-30 17:04 I remember here when snow made some mid-tension cables fall 2013-12-30 17:04 electric fire on snow for hours 2013-12-30 17:04 And I guess that earth potential difference between your legs could kill you, if you weren't careful 2013-12-30 17:04 nothing to see 2013-12-30 17:05 "nada que ver"? :) 2013-12-30 17:05 heh :) 2013-12-30 17:05 i was looking for the smoke column. but maybe they extinguished it since. that video is from one hour ago. 2013-12-30 17:11 ah yes, in the second video, 30' later, the smoke is already almost gone 2013-12-30 17:47 wej has quit [Quit: What!?] 2013-12-30 17:48 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 18:15 regonda has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 18:19 regonda has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-30 18:26 dimamay has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 18:27 dimamay has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-30 18:44 Does the wishbone interconnect support connections between multiple clock domains? 2013-12-30 18:59 * whitequark looks at http://leaflabs.com/docs/hardware/maple.html#general and sighs 2013-12-30 18:59 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 19:00 That's quite a depressing mistake 2013-12-30 19:01 that is a whole list of mistakes... 2013-12-30 19:02 I kept reading... Those are really depressing mistakes 2013-12-30 19:03 fortunately I'm using a chinese clone of the board 2013-12-30 19:03 somehow they were able to get it right on version 1.0 2013-12-30 19:03 LOL 2013-12-30 19:03 zrafa has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 19:03 maybe because they designed it to the advertised specs 2013-12-30 19:04 it's bad if the clones are earlier and better than the original ;-) 2013-12-30 19:05 well, iteadstudio (the company who cloned the board) seems to have rather competent engineers in general 2013-12-30 19:05 guess they can't afford incompetence! 2013-12-30 19:08 metalfreak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 19:08 hi 2013-12-30 19:09 Sup 2013-12-30 19:11 kristianpaul: hey 2013-12-30 19:11 kristianpaul: how are you? 2013-12-30 19:14 hmm. screen dump from my scope: black signals on a black grid with a black background. 2013-12-30 19:14 Seems legit. 2013-12-30 19:15 Anyone know of a good cheap (and I mean really cheap) logic analyzer? 2013-12-30 19:15 buspirate? 2013-12-30 19:15 a few leds ? :) 2013-12-30 19:17 Buspirate is pretty, but only appears to support serial transactions 2013-12-30 19:18 Then again, it's still more useful than nothing 2013-12-30 19:23 those 200bucks USB-"scopes" usually come with 8bit TTL level logic analyzer 2013-12-30 19:23 8bit since that's their internal storage width for the scope signal 2013-12-30 19:23 aka "resolution" 2013-12-30 19:24 I think there's actually a soft one that Altera has for their FPGAs... I'll have to look into that 2013-12-30 19:25 JewFro297: the question is how high frequency do you need 2013-12-30 19:26 Probably 100MHz. Then again, I might not need anything. It's more of a want 2013-12-30 19:27 100MHz is a lot 2013-12-30 19:28 kanzure_ is now known as kanzure 2013-12-30 19:28 Yeah, I think it's a lost cause to get something cheap with said capability. 2013-12-30 19:38 those 20bucks USB thingies are usually up to 20MHz 2013-12-30 19:38 iirc 2013-12-30 19:38 200bucks even 2013-12-30 19:39 http://www.saleae.com/logic16 is $300 and can sample 2ch at 100MHz 2013-12-30 19:40 dunno if it fits your definition of cheap 2013-12-30 19:42 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 19:42 Hmm, actually that looks pretty nice 2013-12-30 19:42 oh but it's only 12.5 on a 16 bit bus 2013-12-30 19:42 their software is seriously great 2013-12-30 19:43 especially on *nix 2013-12-30 19:43 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:09 larsc has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-30 20:09 larsc has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:10 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-30 20:12 habs has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:21 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:36 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-30 20:40 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:48 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-30 20:54 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 20:57 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-30 21:06 hahaha, recall our discussion the other day about hard drives? 2013-12-30 21:06 "An implant hidden in the firmware of hard drives from manufacturers including Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor and Samsung that replaces the Master Boot Record (MBR). 2013-12-30 21:06 http://hackaday.com/2013/12/30/hacking-and-philosophy-surveillance-state/ 2013-12-30 21:09 also this: http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Handy/S3222_MONKEYCALENDAR.jpg 2013-12-30 21:11 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-30 21:14 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 21:23 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-30 21:24 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 21:29 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-30 21:29 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 21:39 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 21:53 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-30 21:53 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 22:08 I'm thinking about buying a Nanonote from Pulster, but I have a few questions before I take the leap. First, are there any firmwares on the Nanonote that aren't free software yet (wheter it be NAND firmware or EC firmware)? Second, as I understand it the Nanonote doesn't come with a wireless card. What would be a "good enough" wireless card I could buy for the Nanonote that runs with a free firmware? 2013-12-30 22:08 Third, how active is the Nanonote community today? Thanks. 2013-12-30 22:09 wpwrak_ is often doing some nice hacks with the SDIO port 2013-12-30 22:09 habs: I don't think there is any non-free firmware on Nanonote at all 2013-12-30 22:10 and larsc apelete and maybe others are maintaining/improving/bugfixing the nanonote kernel 2013-12-30 22:10 or actually any firmware except the code running on CPU 2013-12-30 22:14 (fw) well, the cpu has a boot rom that's closed ... 2013-12-30 22:14 (wireless) there is this: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/ 2013-12-30 22:33 Well, I'm pretty sure you guys' quick response times answered my thrid question; thanks 2013-12-30 22:36 ;) 2013-12-30 22:44 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-30 22:45 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 22:45 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 22:45 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 22:46 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 22:46 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 22:47 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 22:47 the nanonote community is actually not that active. but there are lots of people around (i.e., here or on the list) who know the nanonote. 2013-12-30 22:48 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 22:48 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 22:49 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 22:49 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 23:04 nicksydney has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-30 23:22 habs: to reply how active comm is you should give us your range of "no-activity" - "activity" :) 2013-12-30 23:22 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-30 23:37 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 00:52 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-31 00:52 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 00:59 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-12-31 01:00 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-31 01:11 wpwrak_: just read that H2O2 is also use for fruit and veggie wash ... http://www.vitamingrocer.com.au/Essential-Oxygen-Hydrogen-Peroxide-Food-Grade-3-p/150223.htm 2013-12-31 01:14 wpwrak_: even it is used for mouthwash http://www.biovea.com/au/product_detail.aspx?PID=2882&TI=GTPAU&utm_source=getprice&utm_medium=cpc 2013-12-31 01:14 WTH 2013-12-31 01:14 that sounds like a really horrible idea 2013-12-31 01:15 naw, 3% peroxide is harmless 2013-12-31 01:15 just don't try that with the stronger stuff 2013-12-31 01:16 unless you want to make friends with the folks over at the chemical burn ward 2013-12-31 01:17 i was really surprised that the application of H2O2 is including food and health too..stunned 2013-12-31 01:18 wpwrak_: (chemical burn ward) that is so spot on I wonder whether you actually did that 2013-12-31 01:18 well, you also have chloride in your water ... :) 2013-12-31 01:18 I know a guy who played a bit too much with an xray tube 2013-12-31 01:18 he ended up in radiology. became friends with a bunch of nuclear station engineers 2013-12-31 01:18 http://www.apvma.gov.au/use_safely/pool/owners_faq.php "There are a number of alternatives to water sanitising systems or devices that do not contain silver. These products, that usually contain chlorine or bromine, do not need to be used in conjunction with other chemicals. If you prefer not to use chlorine or bromine, there are seven registered alternative products that contain hydrogen peroxide as the active 2013-12-31 01:18 ingredient." 2013-12-31 01:19 whitequark: naw, resisted the temptation so far :) 2013-12-31 01:19 wpwrak_: it's a learning process for me to understand all this :) 2013-12-31 01:29 whitequark: is he still alive? 2013-12-31 01:30 DocScrutinizer05: surprisingly 2013-12-31 01:30 you can guess it's not the only crazy thing he did in his life. I'm honestly baffled as to how could he made it so far 2013-12-31 01:37 wpwrak_: new end-of-the-year project for the kids ... http://ctrlv.in/277377 2013-12-31 01:58 kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 01:59 ;-)) 2013-12-31 02:00 you could mount the LED upside-down behind the eyes 2013-12-31 02:02 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-31 02:05 wpwrak_: initially i was thinking of replacing the eye with the led 2013-12-31 02:05 wpwrak_: but can't be bothered playing around with the .mod file in text editor :) 2013-12-31 02:06 wpwrak_: we are spoilt with option down here http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=19239 :) 2013-12-31 02:06 you can use fped to draw your own :) 2013-12-31 02:06 (fped) let me check 2013-12-31 02:08 (fped)...yikes..looks like this will take me a whole day to read through README :) 2013-12-31 02:08 will leave it for another day 2013-12-31 02:15 it has a gui ;-) 2013-12-31 02:15 fped some-nice-footprint.fpd 2013-12-31 02:15 but yes, it's not a trivial program :) 2013-12-31 02:20 listogib has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 02:29 listogib has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 03:33 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 03:35 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 03:48 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 03:50 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 05:08 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 05:10 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 05:12 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 06:38 JewFro297 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-31 07:08 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 07:13 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2013-12-31 07:16 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-31 07:45 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 09:07 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-31 09:09 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 09:29 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-31 09:32 freespace has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 09:33 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 09:45 wpwrak_: the Android PCB etching went well but not as smooth as expected when soldering the SMD component..accidentally rip one of the track when unsoldering one of the LED .. but at least I have 1 eyed Android working :) 2013-12-31 09:47 wpwrak_: miscalculate using 2 resistors which makes me have to unsolder the resistor and in turn ripped the copper track...the copper track is really flimsy ....i remembered you told me 2 days ago about it :) 2013-12-31 09:47 let me show you some pictures..uploading it now :_) 2013-12-31 09:51 ....http://ctrlv.in/277505 .... 2013-12-31 09:51 ....http://ctrlv.in/277506... 2013-12-31 09:52 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-31 09:53 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 09:53 wpwrak_: http://ctrlv.in/277508 2013-12-31 09:54 http://ctrlv.in/277510 2013-12-31 09:55 http://ctrlv.in/277511 2013-12-31 09:55 last one ... http://ctrlv.in/277512 :) 2013-12-31 10:49 I won't need any sort of "special" router to use atben on a Nanonote, right? As in, a standard MI424WR from Verizon (my ISP) should work fine with it? 2013-12-31 10:53 you need special hardware 2013-12-31 10:53 and software 2013-12-31 10:54 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 11:00 larsc: What hardware would that include, other than obviously the atben and the Nanonote? 2013-12-31 11:01 atben is wpan so you need something on your router that speaks wpan 2013-12-31 11:01 e.g. if your router supports usb you could use atusb 2013-12-31 11:02 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/ 2013-12-31 11:02 and then you need software that implements ip over wpan 2013-12-31 11:58 mth has quit [] 2013-12-31 12:24 nicksydney_: nice :) it's also good that you're making your first steps with something simple. by the time you do something like anelok, you want to be good enough to basically make no mistakes. else you'll just have a mess that doesn't work and you'll never find out why 2013-12-31 12:25 now, pads coming off is bad. two possible reasons: 1) maybe your PCB is poor quality. i come back to the strange color. maybe get something from a shop, they're less likely to see you FR2 as FR4 when you can examine it with your own eyes (they don't know that you don't know the difference yet :) 2013-12-31 12:27 2) maybe your iron is way too hot and/or you stayed too long on the pads. try to have the iron at a temperature where the solder quickly liquifies, then work rapidly. also, for soldering, apply flux, place the component, then add solder on the tip of the iron and solder the component to the pad. don't try to feed solder and heat directly to the joint (as you would do with old through-hole parts) 2013-12-31 12:28 also, if you make another try of that board, what would be a good opportunity for trying the tinning. tinning will also make soldering easier since the tin surface - unlike bare copper - won't oxidize. 2013-12-31 12:37 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 12:39 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-31 12:39 viric_ is now known as viric 2013-12-31 12:39 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 13:00 wpwrak_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-31 13:13 woakas1 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 2013-12-31 13:13 woakas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 14:29 nicksydney_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-31 14:29 unclouded has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-12-31 14:35 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 14:35 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 15:46 JewFro297 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 15:49 tdostalco has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 15:53 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 2013-12-31 15:53 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 16:01 tdostalco has quit [K-Lined] 2013-12-31 16:02 lilvinz- has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 2013-12-31 16:03 lilvinz has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 16:13 lilvinz- has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 16:23 lilvinz has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-31 16:28 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 17:25 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 17:30 pcercuei has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-31 17:33 lilvinz- has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 2013-12-31 17:33 lilvinz has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 18:42 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-31 18:46 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-12-31 18:46 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-12-31 19:16 [2013-12-31 14:00:43] <-- wpwrak_ has left this server (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2013-12-31 19:16 o.O 2013-12-31 19:17 happy calendar carrybit everybody 2013-12-31 19:34 at least to those using a calendar that wraps around today 2013-12-31 21:02 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware