<wpwrak>
sharism.cc was the shop. that shop stopped operating many months ago. so it makes sense in a way to shut down sharism.cc
<wpwrak>
(sd card) nice. maybe anelok doesn't need an mcu after all ;-))
<wpwrak>
boot from the wireless, read new sd firmware from the card, reflash the card's firmware, then delegate control there. oh yes, even more advanced that broadcom's boot-through-the-gpu :)
<hellekin>
there's going to be some interesting hardware talks at 30c3. Anyone going there?
<wpwrak>
looked a the trezor a whole ago. limited in scope but the concept seems nice.
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<rjeffries>
wpwrak when you launch anelok on Indiegogo or similar place, maybe a "stretch" goal at significant extra funding could be a Bitcoin wallet? May be too demanding of CPU etc however...
<wpwrak>
i like the idea of having a wallet. i don't so much like the idea of having this as a "stretch goal". stretch goals would basically have to be something that falls into your lap.
<wpwrak>
otherwise you're putting your schedule at risk
<wpwrak>
also, it's open, so anyone can develop things for it. it wouldn't make sense for me to promise a feature that someone else may make. in fact, if it promised it, that may prevent others from doing it
<wpwrak>
of course, the better the thing sells, the more money will be there for new things. that could also mean better hardware.
<rjeffries>
understood. silly me, focusing on what might create buzz. Bitcoin anything is so shiny
<wpwrak>
oh, it is :)
<wpwrak>
of course, the BTC hype is now. so maybe it should be a worldcoin wallet. or whatever the next one will be :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
BTC is a PITA, for accepting payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually I fail to grok the whole concept, or rather the idea behind it. It's still depending on a centralized structure to log where which amount sits, AIUI
<wpwrak>
why is it a PITA ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
reports say they recently busted several drug dealers by monitoring that
<wpwrak>
ah yes, it's not quite as anonymous as some people may think :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(that's not the PITA, the PITA is constantly changing exchange rates)
<wpwrak>
yeah, that needs some flexibility :)
<wpwrak>
probably the best approach is - if you want to play it safe - to convert what you absolutely must have immediately (or at least soon), keep the rest to see if it increases
<wpwrak>
and add a safety margin on any BTC prices you announce
<wpwrak>
there may actually be some money to be made in offering a service that pays a given amount of USD, EUR, etc., in exchange for BTC. basically "send us BTC X by 00:00 UTC today and we'll wire USD Y to the account you specify"
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<wpwrak>
the definition of "send" would be a bit tricky, of course, since as i understand it, a transfer may take a variable amount of time. and you probably don't have a proof of emission before the transfer completes. well, maybe you do. the experts will know :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: mhm, please calculate 19% VAT on that
<wpwrak>
an arrival deadline would work too, of course: you tell people how many hours/days they should initiate the transfer in advance, and it it arrives by the deadline you pay. otherwise you send it back (minus transfer fees and maybe a small handling fee)
<wpwrak>
i don't think banks pay VAT on exchanges ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but the webshop has to do
<DocScrutinizer05>
do pay Finanzamt with BTC?
<wpwrak>
i'm talking about a payment service that would solve your "BTC is too volatile" problem
<wpwrak>
how you calculate your EUR prices is still your problem :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
toldya: PITA
<dos1>
wpwrak: transaction speed depends on fee
<dos1>
and actually some "proof" of transaction is available almost instantly - but if you want to be immune to some frauds, you have to wait for more confirms
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: only if such a service doesn't exist. otherwise, it's like accepting EUR.
<dos1>
on typical, recommended fee it's the matter of 10-15 minutes
<DocScrutinizer05>
webshop needs to send out an invoice, drawn on EUR, with 19% VAT which you will have to pay to tax office
<DocScrutinizer05>
it needs to do that just in time
<dos1>
with zero fee - it may be almost infinity, or may be 10-15 minutes as well - depending on your luck
<dos1>
afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
this whole BTC feels like a bic rippoff
<DocScrutinizer05>
big even
<dos1>
it's an interesting idea and even more interesting implementation, but for it to work well as a currency it needs some exchange rate that's not just a function of demand :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
every currency works on the basis of some entity controlling it
<dos1>
and some charts that do not look like a giant bubble
<DocScrutinizer05>
and every modern currency works on the basis of infinite but closely controlled resources - I.E. *somebody* cna always print enough dollars
<DocScrutinizer05>
BTC is limited by math, i heard
<dos1>
oh yes, the fun with btc will start when mining ends and there's no flow of new coins
<wpwrak>
dos1: no 3D in settings here
<dos1>
wpwrak: i mean time period, 3 days :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in 3 years or whatever, the last Bitcoin will be calculated, and then that's it
<wpwrak>
ah yes, taking off quite nicely :)
<wpwrak>
of course, if you want crazy, try LTC :)
<dos1>
yeah, almost 50x up in one month
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: "regular" currencies have a huge bubble too, thanks to all the "virtual" money made through derivatives
<dos1>
and I considered buying some 2 or 3 litecoins back when they were at $1
<dos1>
of course turned out to be too lazy :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: so their only safety is that not enough people accept that they're about as bad a BTC
<wpwrak>
dos1: you can still mine them. with a decent PC, you may be able to get 2-3 per year ;-)
<dos1>
yup, I know :D
<wpwrak>
dos1: multiply with 10 if you have a top-notch GPU
<dos1>
and what's the saddest
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<dos1>
I wanted to mine some btc few years ago, when it just started
<dos1>
just because it seemed cool idea
<dos1>
I installed the client and thought that it's enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, back when
<dos1>
checked after few days - it was doing something with cpu, but still 0 btc
<dos1>
so I just went "meh" and removed it
<wpwrak>
that much about becoming a millionaire. now go back to washing dishes :)
<dos1>
now when I know a bit about it, seems like it was eating some cpu when keeping in sync with blockchain, and of course mining had to be turned on by some console option
<wpwrak>
heh. tricky :)
<dos1>
I guess back then I could easily mine full blocks on CPU and get some 50 BTC rewards
<dos1>
worth some fraction of cent back then :)
<wpwrak>
so you blew your early retirement
<dos1>
well... I guess I'd probably have sold it already by now :D
<dos1>
but maybe if I'd forget about them at all and just remind myself about it right now
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: yeah my plan is to use that for the toner transfer .. but once in a while can be used as backup printer in case my son's printer go bonker :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
WOW those guys are... brave^H^H^H^H MAD!
<DocScrutinizer05>
*soldering* a 240°C thermal fuse (RS# 1769356)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I gues the could simply replace the fuse by a few cm of the solder wire
<DocScrutinizer05>
nicksydney: when you plan to hw-mod that http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 stuff, I *urgently* recommend to CRIMP stuff and not use soldering *anywhere*
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: you're just jealous. you already had your apartment fire, so you can never have that "first time" experience again. the confusion, the delightful agony, the realization that you may survive after all, ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah :-S
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: sorry don't understand what you mean crimp ? which part ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
but this one as well might end in electrocution
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the heads up...anything to make me stay alive :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nicksydney: *all* parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't even *think* about using your soldering iron on that thing
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: what he's saying is that, after the modification, the critter will operate at or near the temperature at which the solder melts.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: ahhhh gotcha.
<wpwrak>
of course, what may be even more interesting are the flash points (i think that's the right word ?) of all the inflammable materials in the area :)
<nicksydney>
any tips on how to crimp the right way
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are hollow rivets
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually used to treat wire ends that are braid copper
<wpwrak>
first it looks a little .. let's say strange. then you get suspicious. then you see the warning signs. then somebody tells you. then you see the little crucifices on the roadside. then you hear the screaming. ... :)
<nicksydney>
looks like it's easier to use iron
<nicksydney>
safer i guess :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
this hw mod would make me feel a tad uncomfortable
<nicksydney>
i think i stick with iron for now and worry about laminator for next time until i know what i'm doing ..don't want to have disaster working with high voltage
<nicksydney>
allright so will buy the printer only in that case
<wpwrak>
my approach: battery-powered MCU + relay on the (mains) power supply to the motor. battery-powered so that i don't have to build a proper power supply. quick and dirty but it works. oh, and apply acrylic spray (isolation) generously on that pcb :)
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: printer first sounds good to me
* DocScrutinizer05
waves
* DocScrutinizer05
heads out to get some milk and pretzel
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: .....and don't forget some yogurt :) .hahaha
<wpwrak>
(paper) looks decent enough. you may want to get a few papers and then try how well they work
<DocScrutinizer05>
ROTFL >>If anything CATCHES FIRE, we're not responsible (seriously, don't even attempt this modification)<<
<wpwrak>
the mixture is basically: paper, amount of alcoholic cleaning you apply to the paper, and then the heating process
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: "alchholic cleaning you apply to the paper" ..do you mean that I need to clean the paper first with alcohol ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Solder as quickly as possible to avoid destroying the fuse!<<< MUHAHAHAHAAAAHAAA
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: some papers have some sort of gelatine on top. if you remove that, it'll work better. you need to apply a bit of alcohol (can be very little, can be a little more. don't soak the paper, though. else it'll take forever to dry.), then wipe off the sludge with a paper towel
<DocScrutinizer05>
IN!CRED!IBLE!
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: then place the large bags of fertilizer right underneath and apply a generous quantity of diesel ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: can i use nail acetone ?
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: my wife got few lying around :_)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
contains oil
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: and it's usually too aggressive
<nicksydney>
oh ok ... what kind of alcohol you recommend
<DocScrutinizer05>
bbl
<wpwrak>
isoprophylic is the usual cleaning choice. you can get it at high purity.
<wpwrak>
unless they're nasty taxes on it, also high-concentration ethylene (from the supermarket) will work
<nicksydney>
just realised that kit does not have the chemical needed
<nicksydney>
only the tray and few tools and copper
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: you mention " HCl + H2O2 is a LOT better than ferric chloride. you can find the ingredients everywhere, it's a clean liquid and it stays clear (unlike FeCl with all the black sludge building up in there), it works perfectly at room temperature (FeCl: wants heating), and you can just store and reuse it "
<DocScrutinizer05>
1 x 100g Sachet of Sodium Persulphate etchant
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: my chem is not that superb :)...any humanly name like for example dish soap or something :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: that seems too complicated and difficult to find..unless I can find it through household items
<DocScrutinizer05>
though not stable, it will deteriorate once you used it
<nicksydney>
true...so at least for few times use should be ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't heat the etching bath to more than 50°C since that speeds up the deterioration of the Na2S2O8
<nicksydney>
is it better to add hot water ?
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders if wpwrak would accept Na2S2O8 as a substitute for the fertilizer mentioned before
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, adding hot water speeds up the time til etching kicks in, you don't need to heat it in the bath container
<DocScrutinizer05>
Na2S2O8 is a salt
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need to add water anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess they have a blurb
<DocScrutinizer05>
where they explain exactly what to do
<DocScrutinizer05>
the PCB seems to be coated with photoresist
<DocScrutinizer05>
so instead of transferring the toner, you could try exposing the PCB-coated via a transparent foil with the toner on it
<nicksydney>
ok once i have it will go through instruction or some sort blurb
<nicksydney>
expose it without ultraviolet right ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a photopositive, so the areas that get exposed to light will vanish aiui. Rather they will vanish when you "develop" the PCB in developer bath
<DocScrutinizer05>
then you can etch
<DocScrutinizer05>
the traces should be protected by the non-exposed photoresist
<nicksydney>
ah ok
<nicksydney>
understood
<nicksydney>
boy you guys are smart :)
* nicksydney
bow down to DocScrutinizer05 and wpwrak
<DocScrutinizer05>
get overhead foil for your printer!
<DocScrutinizer05>
to print the layout on it
<DocScrutinizer05>
needs to be laserprinter-proof
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is IMPORTANT
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: glossy paper for laser printer should do fine ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
then - after printing layout - you check the thing holding it against the light, and see if there are any holes or sth. Use a touch-up pen to fix those holes
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw it's a good idea to make the toner on the downside of the transparent foil, directly on top of the photoresist, so you have no light bleeding under the black traces
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm probably should fit. Copier works like laserprinter
<DocScrutinizer05>
take care! whatever method you use, both need the layout printed mirrored to what it shall be on PCB!
<DocScrutinizer05>
ideally you write some letters like "TOP" on the layout, at a location where it doesn't interfere with your electrical traces
<DocScrutinizer05>
then you'll notice easily later on when you got something the wrong way round
<DocScrutinizer05>
no kidding, I already created and etched and drilled mirrored PCBs. Then I started swearing
<DocScrutinizer05>
(([2013-12-05 06:04:46] <nicksydney> expose it without ultraviolet right ?)) there will be instructions how and how long to expose. IIRC it's something like "30s of full noon sun. OR 5 min under a 30W FL lamp, at 50cm distance)"
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yes, afaik basically UV
<DocScrutinizer05>
so handling isn't really that hard, when you sit in a dark room with one dim incandescent lamp
<DocScrutinizer05>
instructions paper will elaborate on all this
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose and complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/and com/com/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method"
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: seen the copper recycling with steel wool recommendation for Na2S2O8 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-D
<rjeffries>
DocScrutinizer05 specs for your Neo900 are impressive. the work wpwrak is doing with BTLE might benefit your project.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm maybe, though I doubt we will have a BT module that can profit from any such work
<rjeffries>
I really like how the project exposes several useful interfaces, including I2C and RS232. any chance you might expose SPI also
<rjeffries>
my thought is your design could incorportae the BT chip wpwrak has selected.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooops, the RS232 should have gone already, we probably won't support that anymore
<rjeffries>
ok, not a biggie. re RS232
<rjeffries>
SPI woudl be handy however
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll see what can get done
<rjeffries>
somebody on your project must be a serious audio nut
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, that's prolly me
<rjeffries>
fair enough. on e thinks of a use case as a nice portable recording kit. using Audacity maybe
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc I pushed Nikolaus to have line-in, back when
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, something like that should be possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd honestly like to have built in stereo mic
<DocScrutinizer05>
though I'm not convinced about the mini-micro's quality for HiFi recording
<rjeffries>
yeah that would be great. but a way to have two lavalier mics one for interview subject, one for interviewer, recorded on seperate tracks...
<rjeffries>
I am not a music guy. think more of NPR-ish (apiratioal) podcasts
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you got line-in for that. I will try to make sure it comes with micbias for power, and a proper mic pre-amp
<rjeffries>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
but hey, probably you could use internal mic for one and BT headset mic for the other
<rjeffries>
when do you exhaust supply of Nokia cases and keyboards
<DocScrutinizer05>
and mix up to a stereo track
<DocScrutinizer05>
cases are our least problem, they are abundance
<DocScrutinizer05>
though mostly of inferior quality
<rjeffries>
Did Nokia keep a warehouse of them or some such
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, chinese knock-offs
<rjeffries>
I see. Had no idea...
<DocScrutinizer05>
in white, silver, gold, and even original black
<rjeffries>
hope keyboard feel is not too bad...
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll either use original Nokia domesheets, or build our own
<rjeffries>
what is current state of software? sorry, I have not been following your project
<DocScrutinizer05>
keymat is a piece of plastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're not doing software
<rjeffries>
let's hope a serious community forms
<rjeffries>
and does not piss in too many different directions.. LOL
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's FPTF
<DocScrutinizer05>
and replicant
<DocScrutinizer05>
and SHR which dos1 will take care about, he said
<DocScrutinizer05>
I see FPTF as the main battlefield and primary OS for Neo900
<rjeffries>
my image of Neo900 is it is a pocket computer tha happens to also support a phone and mobile data LTE or HSPA and has a middling camet=ra as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, actually the OS is not called FPTF
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's exactly what N900 and Neo900 are
<rjeffries>
if they can get Maemo woring more or less that's pretty sweet
<rjeffries>
does it look like 1 GB RAM will be feasible?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, see the FPTF thread. I have no doubt we will get it working for the most part. There are a few nasty parts like audio management and particularly modem/call audio. And liblocation (GPS et al)
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: looking to run Android on it too ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
1GB RAM depends on whether we can source the RAM chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
chances for that are way better when we ask for 1000 than when we only need 250
<rjeffries>
ok. all in good time. I think 1GB RAM will be very VERY sweet
<rjeffries>
of course. I suspect you may get to N=1,000
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have a hard time to see how they could collect any comprehensive coverage of cell handover / loation update data from German carriers
<DocScrutinizer05>
they'd need either a monitor RX network covering *all* BTS, or a spyware/tap to all carrier's location register servers (or whatstheterm)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I will make sure you can monitor the Neo900 modem not only for active handover (LAC change, TX) but also for cell handover in same LAC, and particularly for *all* TX as well as all activation of modem-internal GPS
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course make sure GPS is "deaf" when not enabled by user
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<larsc>
carriers probably hand them the data on a silver tablet
<DocScrutinizer05>
not really. Rather they don't even notice. I just recall the standardized wiretap-interface that every carrier needs to provide to authorities
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet NSA knows how to log in there
<DocScrutinizer05>
only carriers with iirc <1000 users don't need this interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
and best of all: the specs say carrier MUST NOT have any means to tell, who and when accessed which data via that interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-P
<wpwrak>
argh. you close your eyes for moment and you get this :-(
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<wpwrak>
that pcb eching kits is for the photochemical process. that's the ancient, messy approach. toner transfer skips all this.
<wpwrak>
for photochemical you nees: special coated PCB + transparent positive/negative mask (transparent film) -> UV light (sunlight or special lamp) -> developer (chemical) -> and then the etching
<DocScrutinizer05>
you close your eyes? that's pretty silly! :-P
<wpwrak>
for toner transfer it's: uncoated PCB (i.e., just copper, no chemicals) -> toner transfer paper (not transparent, with toner on it) -> heat (iron) -> etching
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i should stop doing that :)
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (case colors) what, no "hello kitty" ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you forgot the proper cleaning and mechanical treatment of the PCB for toner transfer
<DocScrutinizer05>
while you can forget this for the already coated photoresist PCBs
<wpwrak>
(neo900) so there's no freemantle ? i thought that was your main direction ? or is FPTF another name for FM ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
a) fremantle b) Fremantle Porting Task Force
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (FM) hmm, in a world where everything is f* (free), you'd think they'd keep the "M" :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<wpwrak>
(photoresist) well, true. but what happens if you need a small board ? can you even cut the critters properly ? and then, storing the part you didn't use. also, requiring photo-coating limits your board choices.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<wpwrak>
and if course it's quite incompatible with DIY CNC. luckily, that won't be nick's problem :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
just saying. When he got the photocoated PCB anyway, why not try it?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (usb c) they still don't show what it'll look like. seems that they don't know themselves. so i'd treat all that as vapourware so far. it's design goals, not a design.
<DocScrutinizer05>
HAH! my concept is further evolved already ;-P
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: indeed, we already know that yours can't exist. we still have to make that step for the new USB-V :) ("-V" since it's vapour, and the letter is conveniently located right next to C)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it can't exist in your mind, since you fail to understand it
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<wpwrak>
yeah, governed by the mercilessly strict laws of physics ;-)
<wpwrak>
(ptotocoated pcb) ah well, it'll be a fine mess if he tries to mix a photo process with non-photo ...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
(physics) sure, there are clear physical laws that forbit lifting of elephants with a microfibre
<DocScrutinizer05>
forbid even
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm sure you picked your parameters so the result of your funny evaluation was the one you hoped for
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw accusing me of projecting a *physically* impossible spec is rather insulting
<wpwrak>
you should team up with Andrea Rossi, the great inventor of the cold fusion reactor :)
<wpwrak>
okay let
<DocScrutinizer05>
you should team up with a few other trolls I know
<wpwrak>
's say "implausible" :)
<wpwrak>
the troll, pinnacle of evolution on the intertubes :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the last "plausible" concern I heard from your side been "maybe I never seen what you'd call 'decent' earphone cords"
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry I'm not wasting my time for gossip on that level
<DocScrutinizer05>
since I have other definition of "physically impossible"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I already explained how my concept could stand pulling forces that a microusb would answer with simply lifting off the PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that's rugged enough in my book
<DocScrutinizer05>
but probably that's been just another few lines that got stuck in the magic spamfilter
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<wpwrak>
don't worry, i understand the benefits of connectors that just fall off when abused
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't worry about your comments regarding this topic any more - don't worry
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's abslutely clear to me that they have no value for actually evaluating the concept
<DocScrutinizer05>
you got your notion and you wanna keep it and to do so you ignore stuff I *repeat* 3 times. Fine with me
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<DocScrutinizer05>
on an unrelated topic: nobody suggested mixing of any processes
<DocScrutinizer05>
oops, sound related in a weird way
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<wpwrak>
well, that will happen if i guide him through a toner transfer process and you encourage him to get equipped for photochemical ;-)
<wpwrak>
sure, you didn't come up with the idea. but i think we was clear from the preceding discussion what we were talking about toner transfer ...
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<wpwrak>
basic toner transfer kit. i wonder what the green/white TRF foil is supposed to accomplish, though. once the toner is one the board, you can just proceed to etching ...
<wpwrak>
of course, if you really want to go through all that trouble and also add silk screen, you may approach the point where you're better off just getting your board industrially made
<wpwrak>
if you want the silk screen just for some small markings (e.g., pin 1 and such), you can also draw them with copper instead, avoiding any additional overhead
<wpwrak>
the upper right corner of the large QFN (the MCU) has a little white triangle. that's the silk screen marker for pin 1. right outside of it is another green triangle. that's a copper. in a DIY board, i don't have the silk screen but i do of course have the copper
<wpwrak>
there's that little triangle, in the same corner as the white dot on the package, i.e., i put the chip with the correct orientation :)
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<rjeffries>
What does this progression of projects tell us, if anything: OpenMoko, Ben Nanonote, Neo900?
<rjeffries>
Those three projects had the goal of radical open-ness. For OpenMoko and Ben Nanonote, very VERY few dogs ate the (delicious...) dog food. Can Neo900 change this dynamic? One hopes so...
<paul_boddie>
Have you looked at this Improv stuff, rjeffries?
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't include the Ben in that progression. the ben is a different branch (still closely related). it's more like openmoko - gta04 - neo900
<wpwrak>
and yes, eating one's own dog food was an issue with openmoko. not sure about the ben - i used / am using it for things while i used all my openmoko phones maybe for two days in total.
<larsc>
I tried to use my openmoko
<larsc>
but it most of the time didn't work ;)
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<roh>
larsc: i just do not like phones... but i think that has nothing to do with openmoko but the fact that phones are massively intrusive, broken, old way of communicating and the quality of service is that shitty now, that id rather write than speak
<paul_boddie>
Agreed: if you buy a phone, you don't want to have to keep another one to actually use as a phone.
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<paul_boddie>
wolfspraul: Hope you don't mind that I updated the purchasing details on qi-hardware.com for the NanoNote.
<whitequark>
nicksydney: you better change that password now ;)
<nicksydney>
shit !! didn't see that
<nicksydney>
crap
<nicksydney>
i did changes just now
<nicksydney>
F*****
<nicksydney>
hot stupid i am
<nicksydney>
grrrrr.....mind is everywhere :(
<nicksydney>
switch to using Quassel not from web irc
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<nicksydney>
phew ! lucky i did it on this channel
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: how are you
<wpwrak>
hope that password isn't used anywhere else :)
<wpwrak>
awake ;-)
<wpwrak>
how did last evening's shopping raid go ?
<wpwrak>
and regarding that PCB-making kit: that one is for a different process. not toner transfer but photochemical.
<wpwrak>
side-by-side comparison toner transfer and photochemical:
<wpwrak>
print on: plastified paper | transparent film (slides)
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<wpwrak>
raw PCB: must be clean (scrubbed) | must have photo-sensitive emulsion (you either buy it that way or go deeper into chemistry and apply it on a clean PCB on a dark room)
<wpwrak>
transfer: heat | UV light source (lamp or sun)
<wpwrak>
development: n/a | chemical bath
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<wpwrak>
if it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board
<wpwrak>
etching is the same
<whitequark>
resist I've worked on is developed with weak NaOH--not that corrosive
<whitequark>
and you can just scrape it off with sandpaper
<wpwrak>
ah, drilling / curring: before or after etching | i think only after
<whitequark>
to reuse the board that is. or acetone, as you would use to remove it after successful development
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<wpwrak>
whitequark: (development) yes, it's nothing evil. just one more step
<wpwrak>
(above) s/curring/cutting/
<wpwrak>
and let me rephrase the cancellation procedure ...
<wpwrak>
if it went wrong: clean board again, print new sheet, retry | new board (if buying pre-coated) or clean and re-coat (if self-coating)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: too late with the kids screaming and shouting ..didnt' get the chance...have to go tomororow
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: you referring to the PCB making kit from Jaycar website ?
<whitequark>
nicksydney: my personal experience with both toner transfer and resist (coating it myself):
<whitequark>
toner transfer is wacky, and extremely hard to get right. traces would routinely be squashed and/or come off with the base paper easily.
<whitequark>
resist is wacky, too, although much less so than toner. it's much much easier to maintain trace structure and generally get fine details right
<wpwrak>
whitequark: seems that you need to clean your PCB better :) or vary temperature / pressure. if the toner comes off, it didn't stick properly in the first place
<wpwrak>
whitequark: how do you expose ? sun ? uv lamp ? box of lamps ?
<whitequark>
however, traces (the hardened resist part) still occasionally come off. I did coat PCBs myself, so while I really cleaned them thoroughly and in various ways, seems like it was not enough.
<whitequark>
but, I liked resist much much more.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: uv lamp, the ones you use for checking money
<whitequark>
it cost maybe $15 and worked amazingly
<wpwrak>
hehe, so you have them too ;-)
<whitequark>
talking about toner. I performed dozens of experiments, and I wasn't able to reliably perform the toner transfer trick.
<wpwrak>
and how do you make sure the film stays on the board ?
<whitequark>
transparent plexiglass, it's transparent to UV too
<whitequark>
(unlike real glass)
<whitequark>
the one I've got for cheap was something you would use (apparently) for hanging A4 sheets on walls. diplomas, licenses, that kind of thing
<wpwrak>
(toner) it took me a while to find the right mixture but now it's pretty painless. laminator helps a lot of stabilizing the process. with the iron there's too much variation. (well, unless you have a female assistant for that. it seems that women just grok ironing while men don't. at least that's what a few experiments with friends showed.)
<whitequark>
plus it was already folded in two (like this: =====>) so it was enough to put the PCB with film inside and place something moderately heavy to the other side
<whitequark>
I've used laminator too
<whitequark>
it did very slight difference compared to (clothing) iron, mainly in that traces were squished less
<whitequark>
but they still were, and results were crap in general
<wpwrak>
(plexiglass) good. cheaper than UV-transparent special glasses :)
<whitequark>
also, make sure you're etching it right. I've frequently had my boards overetched where the etchant ate the traces from the sides
<whitequark>
this was especially prominent with toner transfer, more reason to stay away from it :)
<whitequark>
for etchant, consider CuSO4+(NH4)2S2O8, it's way less messy than FeCl3
<wpwrak>
what acid do you use ? i had some trouble with FeCl but wit HCl + H2O2 over-etching is rarely an issue
<whitequark>
FeCl3. as mentioned both HCl and H2O2 are hard to obtain here.
<wpwrak>
(rarely) unless you make an extremely potent mix, like using 35% peroxide undiluted. that'll etch your board in seconds (while the acid boils), but ...
<whitequark>
lol
<nicksydney>
whitequark: thanks for the tips...will write it down somewhere so I don't forget
<nicksydney>
whitequark: ahh yeah didn't think about that ;)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: oooh yes, I've seen that such a lot of times
<nicksydney>
wife is an expert in ironing so should not have any problem with using iron :)
<whitequark>
nicksydney: at the end, I could not get any success at all with double-sided boards and drilling is a PAIN, so I've stopped doing PCBs at home altogether
<wpwrak>
but with a tamer solution there aren't any problems. i even sometimes have to leave the board in a lot longer than what it would take to free the traces since there's some stubborn patch somewhere. and never had anything unfriendly happen there.
<whitequark>
for etching, it also helps to: 1) place board vertically so debris falls down, 2) make a flow of current to move solution along
<wpwrak>
a little CNC mill helps a lot with the drilling pain ;-) also, only using SMT parts helps :)
<nicksydney>
whitequark: i'm planning to use the PCB for smd components don't have drilling or antyhing like taht
<wpwrak>
you may still need a few holes for vias
<nicksydney>
whitequark: good top about placing the board vertically
<whitequark>
vias, yes
<wpwrak>
vertical = more elaborate setup
<whitequark>
containers for vertical etching are surprisingly hard to find, so yes
<nicksydney>
if i put everything on a single side not using vias possible ?
<whitequark>
vias tend to get small on modern boards with lots of SMT, so you have a tiny drill
<whitequark>
you need to position it precisely and not break... that's quite a problem with manual or assisted drilling
<wpwrak>
for etching, i use glass jars from the supermarket, with an "airtight" plastic lid. they're small and have a flat bottom. the whole setup sits in a larger glass basin, the sort you may use to make a lasage. that way, if anything spills, it will be contained
<wpwrak>
i move the boards around with wooden skewers, the kind you use for grilling
<wpwrak>
(drilling) yes, they break ... one advantage of manual drilling is that you can drill at an angle, offsetting any error in the front/back registration
<whitequark>
OR you can see it as a disadvantage, because it's too easy to screw a normal board up
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: IF you can fit the whole layout on one side, you don't need vias. but even relatively simple things can require one or two traces that cross others. but yes, if you can design for single-layer, that's preferable.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: for testing purposes will make it on single layer and once i have success than would do it double layer
<whitequark>
as a bottom line: either I'm a screwup in general, or wpwrak has superhuman capabilities in pcb making
<wpwrak>
whitequark: yeah, i like my CNC mill :) nice edges, all the holes where they belong, virtually no drill breakage. and i have found a drill and wire combo that matches perfectly :)
<whitequark>
nicksydney: double layer is extremely hard to position properly
<whitequark>
probably less so with photoprocess, as you do not need to move the pcb around (you can just flip the flexiglass+pcb+film sandwich)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: a number of friends who had never made PCBs before used my process and got reasonably good results within 1-2 tries
<whitequark>
wpwrak: trace width?
<wpwrak>
that was a slightly larger board. lemme check ...
<whitequark>
at my best, half of my QFN pads were good.
<whitequark>
I don't consider that "reasonably good", at all.
<whitequark>
but it's entirely possible that I just still suck at making PCBs, even after dozens of attempts
<wpwrak>
10 mil traces, 10 mil clearance
<wpwrak>
i use now 0.2 mm / 0.2 mm, so about 8 mil / 8 mil
<wpwrak>
whitequark: what sucked the most was soldering things next to large ground planes, like in atusb. and of course the gazillion vias needed for RF.
<wpwrak>
so these boards are about as far as i'd go. no fine-pitch BGA :)
<wpwrak>
(double-sided) for toner transfer: if you have a good aim, you can do it by just by shining light through the sandwich to align the sheets. it's usually accurate enough. you can also pre-align the sheets and insert the pcb (if you cut the pcb after etching, which is what you'd do without a cnc mill)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: ok, I officially suck at making PCBs then. :/
<wpwrak>
pre-aligned sheets tend to be very precise
<wpwrak>
if the board really gets very hairy, like these RF board or something big but with fine details, like anelok, you can do one side at a time: toner transfer the top, cover the back with adhesive tape, etch, then do the bottom
<nicksydney>
ok guys all this electronic porn is making me not able to work ... going to do some paid work first and be back later :)
<wpwrak>
takes some patience but yields good precision
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<pcercuei>
qi-bot: hey, wake up
<pcercuei>
I pushed commits. Do your job and announce them D: