DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<DocScrutinizer05> :-/
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<kyak> and i don't understand why you care so much
<kyak> if you can explain, maybe i'll whitelist cookies, too :)
<whitequark> advertisers' cookies essentially can vacuum up your browser history very efficiently
<whitequark> then they compose a portrait of you, which they use to display targeted ads and also sell to whomever wants it
<whitequark> non-advertisers can also do that to tailor search results based not on just query but on the portrait as well ("bubble")
<whitequark> though I only know of search engines doing that. essentially, Google displays not what you need but what you want to see.
<viric> what they want you to see
<whitequark> what will maximize their profit.
<viric> but linked with NSA...
<kyak> i don't mind that, i guess.. I always search google when i logged in anyway
<viric> their profit may be related to fiscal advantages, in interchange with NSA for data
<viric> as snowden explained.
<viric> you share data with the government, you pay less taxes.
<kyak> yeah, i notice that if i searched for a new fridge, i will then see fridges everywhere
<kyak> but i don't care.. why would i care?
<viric> then you have the trade of data between governments secret services...
<whitequark> kyak: try searching for herpes
<kyak> whitequark: only if i really need :)
<viric> and finally you get FSB at your door
<whitequark> the motivation here is more or less the same as motivation for privacy in general
<kyak> it doesn't have to do with privacy
<kyak> what i do in internet is not private
<kyak> so why hide?
<viric> kyak: because you think you publish less than what you publish
<whitequark> viric: I don't think Google's bubble is politically motivated, at least for now
<kyak> i maybe even like targeted ads :)
<viric> whitequark: snowden showed the fiscal advantages to companies that collaborate.
<kyak> viric: i publish less than i have on my HDD?
<viric> kyak: you start with this thinking, and you end up that the Big Brother improves your safety.
<viric> thinking taht.
<viric> that
<whitequark> viric: sure, what I mean is that they don't *filter* results based on someone else's instructions
<whitequark> at least silently
<viric> whitequark: ah, no. I mean they simply sell their fingerprinting
<whitequark> Google doesn't sell it to third parties, though to NSA maybe.
<viric> I meant NSA, yes.
<whitequark> kyak: HDD doesn't matter
<kyak> viric: people on the street can learn so much more about you by just looking at you. Are you concerned about your privacy in the street?
<whitequark> by algorithmically processing your behavior, it's possible to figure out facts you never shared explicitly, or wanted to
<kyak> whitequark: by following you in the street, it is possible to find out much more
<whitequark> kyak: following you in the street is a) costly b) easy to detect
<viric> kyak: all they know about you can be later used against you. For example, they may know what you cannot prove, when they face you with a false accusation.
<whitequark> following you in the internet is a) cheap b) next to impossible to detect or circumvent
<viric> Like they could do with Navalny
<kyak> whitequark: really? do you know how many cameras are in the street? They have a 24hour footage of you every day :)
<kyak> you hiding cookies just sound funny
<kyak> thinking it would improve "privacy"
<whitequark> kyak: to begin with, it would
<viric> you can try the evercookie :)
<whitequark> then, on the street, yeah--though it is far from being cheap or easy to use, and is only true for some cities in some countries
<viric> you have the positioning by mobile phone antennas, if you use them
<viric> it depends on what do you prefer to keep hidden.
<viric> And about internet... it's much easier to avoid the disclosure of private data in internet, than on street.
<viric> So if it is easy, you better avoid the disclosure. You never know when that will be used against yo.
<whitequark> viric: I doubt that
<kyak> it is much more probable that authorities will get information about you from their own sources (they have plenty of governmental databses), your internet provider etc, than from your cookies..
<viric> doubt what?
<whitequark> kyak: I don't care very much about authorities
<kyak> seriously, you are giving yourself a safe sense of privacy
<viric> well, we have to add that it gives a relief to act as a secret agent
<viric> you have to enjoy the fun of that game, because it is set for you to play it.
<kyak> whitequark: ok, in this case the only way these companies can profit from you is if you give them your money
<whitequark> kyak: that's... just not true at all
<whitequark> companies can profit from you a lot even if you will never give them money at all. case in point: facebook
<kyak> what's up with that?
<whitequark> viric, kyak: (and I personally don't hide cookies, by the way. but, whatever)
<whitequark> kyak: hm?
<viric> We need people playing the secret agent game
<kyak> whitequark: how they profit from you by watching your cookies?
<viric> Because otherwise, anyone not hiding the cookies, will be suspect.
<whitequark> kyak: google "ad retargeting", for example
<kyak> whitequark: the aim of ads is your money
<viric> It's like https. Luckily, https is spread. Otherwise, using ciphering for https would raise suspicion.
<whitequark> kyak: the companies which show me ads don't profit from me.
<viric> kyak: yes, and the government wants your well being and safety too.
<kyak> they will show you ads with or without cookies
<whitequark> viric: https is not exactly secure
<viric> whitequark: you can have secure things over https
<whitequark> it takes one compromised CA for being able to MITM everything
<viric> which does not mean any https is secure
<kyak> viric: the government doesn't care about me, but i don't understand what it has to do with cookies. .seriously
<viric> kyak: it's about not accepting any step back
<viric> kyak: you could say the same about the FOSS. "A bit of non-FOSS doesn't hurt"
<viric> and you end up running skype in an android factory-flashed phone
<viric> kyak: you should be ashamed, that the government doesn't care about you ;)
<kyak> viric: no, it's a about your convenience. Convenience (for me) is much more above FOSS. It is, however, possible that i might feel inconvenientwhen using non-FOSS. But it only proves that convenience is above FOSS
<whitequark> convenience and security are two ends of an one spectrum
<viric> Tatcher said: you only have to make happy two thirds of the people. You win ellections, and you can fuck one third to make the two-thirds feel over average.
<viric> that's also called fascism. Kick off a minority for advantage of the majority. But it works, and it's convenient for most of the population.
<kyak> incorrect, you only need to make happy 51% of those who actually came to vote :)
<viric> this reaches godwin soon.
<kyak> taking about 30-35% attendance, it's much less
<whitequark> attending population does not necessarily represent views of it as a whole
<kyak> sure, sure
<viric> whitequark: but that doesn't matter, in terms of governing
<whitequark> viric: it's a quantitive difference, yes
<viric> Have you seen this tox.im thing, btw?
<kyak> viric: juts wondering, do you use cookie whitelisting yourself?
<viric> kyak: yes, with the cookie monster
<viric> but that's only *one* fingerprinting technique.
<kyak> viric: do you have JS disabled?
<viric> Not always.
<viric> often not.
<kyak> can you give a link to that cookie omnster?
<viric> it's a firefox plugin, named that way
<kyak> my google bubble will now suggest that i'm a fan of that blue creature :0
<kyak> ok, it's interesting
<kyak> i might use it for blacklisting :)
<viric> that will give you a false sense of security
<viric> ;)
<kyak> though i don't know what i'dd like to blacklist
<whitequark> there's ghostery for blacklisting
<whitequark> it's closed-source and, well, blacklisting. I have it installed because it kills annoying stuff, but don't rely on it.
<viric> I also use privoxy
<kyak> i think i used to use adblock or something.. but at some point of time i got rid of it
<viric> privoxy doesn't make your browser slow
<kyak> "obnoxious Internet junk" :)
<kyak> the author seems to be pissed off
<whitequark> viric: adblock doesn't either?
<viric> whitequark: it did for me. but I have quite slow computers :)
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