Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<wolfspraul>
should we auto-build all packages with debug info on?
<dvdk>
remote debugging code in shared libraries is horribly difficult
<wolfspraul>
why do we have a buildhost :-)
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: not sure where the build binaries *with* debug info are kept. just in the build-directory, i.e. outside staging etc. would have to keep that.
<wolfspraul>
ok we need to look into that
<dvdk>
(i guess)
<wolfspraul>
it's been too long where a crash is like end-of-world situation on the Ben
<dvdk>
i get the feeling that our accelerated video driver is somehow miscompiled and failing at the dynamic loading level (after some parts of it code already running)
<dvdk>
uhh, why do i have a uclibc 0.9.33 on my ben, when openwrt-xburst staging dir is named "target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.32" !?!?!@
<dvdk>
i hate it.
<dvdk>
did we upgrade/downgrade recently?
<wolfspraul>
yes I think so
<wolfspraul>
going with openwrt upstream defaults I think, nothing intentional on our end afaik
<dvdk>
hmm, that may explain any segfaults
<dvdk>
(?)
<dvdk>
git branch, and another recompile :/
<dvdk>
oh nice, releases are branches, not tags, so I can still commit to them :)
<dvdk>
no, doesn't seem to help. doing 'make toolchain/{clean,compile}', i see that it now builds 'toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.6-linaro_uClibc-0.9.32'
<dvdk>
so ruined my build system for nothing
<wolfspraul>
hmm
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<dvdk>
going to drop a mail to the list and call it a day. maybe next release-build by xiangfu is going to magically result in a working mplayer :)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
thanks a lot for your help!
<wolfspraul>
n8
<dvdk>
last minute update: it's Git again. didn't actually checkout a branch, but made my own.
<dvdk>
the typical bug-report mail solves itself just before hitting the send button :)
<dvdk>
ok, so doing the proper git branch -t release_2012-03-18 origin/release_2012-03-18' doesn't help. still 0.9.32 uclibc
<dvdk>
trying to update my feeds.conf to the one used for the 03-18 release
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: that is all so painful to read, no?
<wolfspraul>
[the microcell article]
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yeah a bit..
<wolfspraul>
a disgrace actually, but open hardware will come to rescue eventually :-)
<wolfspraul>
stupid tamper protection that only protects from the average at&t manager
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, do you think I should send one email about this build 'Tested Image (Build 2012-04-02)' to qi mailing list?
<wolfspraul>
random gps system to limit usage to regions defined by at&t
<wolfspraul>
gpl violations all over most likely
<wolfspraul>
100% root backdoor left open out of incompetence
<wolfspraul>
and so on and so on
<wolfspraul>
and that is at&t!
<wolfspraul>
oh well :-)
<kristianpaul>
he, yeah that tamper is anoying
<wolfspraul>
the whole thing is wrong from a to z
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, rather than ranting we focus on making better stuff
<wolfspraul>
shouldn't be that hard once we get a few more pieces in place :-)
<wolfspraul>
in fact it will be a piece of cake to be better than this, for anyone interested in quality hard & software
<kristianpaul>
perhaps we can find a cheap traceiver somewhere else..
<wolfspraul>
tranceiver for what?
<kristianpaul>
dunno, just thinking about a rtl-sdr like device wich similar freq but for TX
<kristianpaul>
that for me is the goal of osmo-sdr
<wolfspraul>
which radio protocol?
<kristianpaul>
but just thinking of course :)
<kristianpaul>
you mean modulation?
<kristianpaul>
i dont have a radio protocol in mind to be honest
<wpwrak>
GPS ? ;-)
<kristianpaul>
for TX ?
<kristianpaul>
not yet tought ;)
<wpwrak>
here's a fun experiment: set up a GPS receiver at location X. transmit (over the Internet) what it receives to location Y. at Y, send it on the air. watch :)
<wpwrak>
that's probably how the iranis got themselves a US drone
<kristianpaul>
haha
<wpwrak>
(well, the general approach. not precisely the same setup.)
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<wpwrak>
just milled my first piece of acrylic. that stuff is amazing. precise cuts, good feed rate, and it's fairly robust. lightyears ahead of wood of MDF.
<wpwrak>
s/of M/or M
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "just milled my first piece of acrylic. that stuff is amazing. precise cuts, good feed rate, and it's fairly robust. lightyears ahead of wood or MDF."
<wolfspraul>
I both believe that radio will be the breakthrough feature for open hardware, and that we have to be very selective and careful in how we implement it
<wolfspraul>
on one hand we need very high performance chips on the front-end
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand we must not be dragged down by giant and moving targets that only benefit those that can quickly invest and recoup billions of USD
<wolfspraul>
still learning in this sector, as you know I believe in the GPS baseband work you do, and in the 802.15.4 wpan stuff. beyond that it's all learning and thinking for me right now :-)
<wolfspraul>
a true p2p network that can scale to the world would be cool
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<wolfspraul>
so if I read the ipad article correctly, the baseband/dsp chips are from qualcomm (rtr8600, pm8028, mdm9600), broadcom wifi, and switches and power amplifiers from Murata, Peregrine, TriQuint, Avago and Skyworks
<wolfspraul>
I have only the best memories of Murata, too bad we weren't then and still are not ready now to directly co-work with them. they offered credible and serious support, really nice folks.
<wolfspraul>
I think my homework is to understand better what kind of chips those switch/pa companies are coming out with, and what might allow us to make really interesting radios
<wolfspraul>
and of course which of their chips have somewhat good open datasheets, are easily sourcable, etc.
<wolfspraul>
Murata, Peregrine, TriQuint, Avago, Skyworks. Piece of cake to get overview there, no? :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's roughly my current approach, but I am very much learning-by-doing
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<xakh>
long story short
<xakh>
my nanonote is in a pile on the floor
<xakh>
I took my nanonote apart because the LCD didn't show when it booted
<xakh>
xiangfu you know how to fix the hardware?
<xakh>
wolfspraul any ideas? I know you and xiang know the workings of this thing, I have pictures I'm uploading shortly.
<xakh>
xiangfu do you see any problems, and if so, how to I put this back together?
<xakh>
*if not
<xakh>
wolfspraul maybe you do?
<xakh>
xiangfu are you still there?
<wolfspraul>
wow those pictures look bad :-) what do you try to tell us withi those pics?
<wolfspraul>
you need to reassemble your ben the way you disassembled it, hopefully nothing broke or will break in the process
<wolfspraul>
there is a connector on the mainboard where the fpc from the screen comes in, that is sometimes worth reseating. but it seems you took the whole device apart :-)
<xakh>
okay
<xakh>
how do I reseat it?
<xakh>
yeah, I'm kind of old fashioned with stuff
<xakh>
take the whole thing apart if you wanna see what's wrong with it
<xakh>
so the only real problem was it didn't seem the LCD was coming on
<xakh>
when I charged it, the red light would turn on, so I figured it was still working somewhat
<xakh>
but nothing else in the Ben actually turns on when it boots, so I have no idea how to tell if it works
<wolfspraul>
when you boot it (long press of power button), and then connect the usb cable to your notebook, do you see a new usb device appearing on your notebook?
<xakh>
well, not now
<xakh>
I think I did
<wolfspraul>
that's how you can verify whether the ben is running without needing a screen on the ben
<wolfspraul>
put it all back together first
<xakh>
okay, how do I... do that?
<xakh>
this graphite button fell out
<xakh>
and I have no idea where it goes
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<wolfspraul>
graphite button? there is a tiny one on the side as a LED light guide of sorts, you mean that?
<wolfspraul>
you were creative when taking the device apart (otherwise it's certainly broken now), just use the same creativity to put it back together
<wolfspraul>
typically taking apart (without breaking) is harder than putting back together
<wolfspraul>
so relax
<wolfspraul>
one by one, and there's a good chance it will come back up :-)
<wolfspraul>
no rush!
<xakh>
haha
<xakh>
well, no the button that fell wasn't clear
<xakh>
it was black, with a rubber side and a black side
<xiangfu>
xakh, you mean the keyboard ?
<xakh>
no no no, it's just one button
<xiangfu>
xakh, oh. you mean the reset rubber button.
<xakh>
it was inside it?
<xiangfu>
xakh, yes. the reset rubber button inside the case
<xakh>
okay
<xakh>
the LCD ribbon is twisted over itself
<xakh>
is that okay?
<wolfspraul>
inside the hinge is makes a turn, yes
<wolfspraul>
but I have no idea what state of things you look at now - your pics are scary :-)
<xakh>
hahaha
<xakh>
okay, my hands aren't too steady, so my friend is plugging it back in
<xakh>
okay
<xakh>
which end of the ribbon is face down?
<xakh>
is it the brass that faces the logic board or the plastic end?
<wolfspraul>
don't know, but the contacts probably face down (towards the logic board)
<wolfspraul>
the lcm cable is soldered on the lcm side, and connected with a connector on the mainboard side
<wolfspraul>
so: if more than 1 side is loose, it's definitely ripped off and broken :-)
<xakh>
nothing's loose, I'm just asking which side to plug in
<wolfspraul>
there is only 1 cable coming from the lcm, and it needs to go into the 1 connector on the mainboard
<xakh>
right
<xakh>
it has a little leg though
<xakh>
it doesn't seem to connect to anything?
<wolfspraul>
right
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<xakh>
okay, what button do I push to USB boot?
<wolfspraul>
if u-boot is still there, just press u and then power-on
<xakh>
xiangfu it says there's an ethernet object in it before I turn it on even
<xakh>
Bus 002 Device 009: ID 0525:a4a1 Netchip Technology, Inc. Linux-USB Ethernet Gad
<xakh>
get
<xakh>
is that right?
<wolfspraul>
that's your ben
<xakh>
wolfspraul is it supposed to read as that?
<xakh>
so that's right, and the screen is just messed up?
<xakh>
okay
<xakh>
so should I reseat the screen on the LCD side?
<xakh>
or is there a way to do that?
<xakh>
wolfspraul I know I'm probably bothering you
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
even though I feel we need a little luck to get your ben back to where you want it
<wolfspraul>
no you cannot fix or reset anything on the lcd side, it's soldered there
<wolfspraul>
is your screen showing anything now?
<xakh>
no it is not
<xakh>
it just comes up on watch lsusb
<xakh>
I do have a soldering iron
<xakh>
so if push comes to shove, I might be able to fix it that way?
<wolfspraul>
the analysis is too random for me
<wolfspraul>
if you really want to go down that way you may want to look into the kernel on the ben and see whether there are any clues in the lcm driver
<wolfspraul>
you can use a scope to measure signals on the wires to the lcm
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<xakh>
wooops
<xakh>
okay
<xakh>
what is a scope in this case?
<wolfspraul>
you use it to measure the electrons that are flowing through the wires going to the lcm
<wolfspraul>
the scope can tell you what's going on on each wire
<xakh>
I'm not sure what a "scope" is
<xakh>
I have a small voltmeter, as far as electrical components are concerned
<qi-bot>
[commit] Adam Wang: added 67298-4090 USB CONN RECEPT USB STACKED R/A WHT HORIZONTAL THROUGH HOLE into molex.lib (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/f26dac0
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* kristianpaul
click
<kristianpaul>
your approach of course make lot of sense!
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<abushcrafterforg>
I got a geeks phone zero for £60 or £70 off ebay. I gave in. I thought I could disable all the non-free rubbish and have a 700mhz pocket computer which has a vibrator.
<abushcrafterforg>
Then I lean or relean that on matter what I do it will always be a citzen servlalence device and the app to control root permissions for apps is proprietary and I can't fine control the compression of the video with out a non-free app thought the cam driver is non-free any way
<abushcrafterforg>
and with other smaller problems like no control of audio compression, text entry is not easy (So I can't do quick notes.) I am coming to the conclusion that I would be happier with a Nano Note.
<abushcrafterforg>
So didn't you say something about a new model? :) with usb host,etc?
<abushcrafterforg>
recently
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<whitequark>
pabs3: sup
<whitequark>
abushcrafterforg: if you already have root permissions, you basically pwned your phone
<whitequark>
replace the app with SUID'd su
<whitequark>
if it has a patched kernel with their own ACL, find a local privilege escalation exploit (there's a plenty of them, as the kernel is likely to be outdated) and it'd be gone
<whitequark>
abushcrafterforg: their promise to free you from ties to operator is particularly hilarious (in some sense)
<whitequark>
e.g. here in Russia each and every (well, maybe 99% of them. doesn't differ much) phone is sold unlocked
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<abushcrafterforg>
It's a geeksphone so I get root by default and support and hardware warranty. By "su" you mean the in terminal "su" command? I am not aware of a root permissions GUI. I have had look at everything in the F-Droid repo/store and google market
<abushcrafterforg>
empathy does not like long posts.
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<kristianpaul>
there are source for schametics layouts and case for this geeksphone=
<kristianpaul>
s=/?
<kristianpaul>
s/=/?
<whitequark>
abushcrafterforg: then what do you mean by "app to control root permissions is nonfree"?
<qi-bot>
kristianpaul meant: "s?/?"
<kristianpaul>
argh
<whitequark>
abushcrafterforg: get root. install busybox. get rid of nonfree shit.
<abushcrafterforg>
I don't think so. It's a of the self desgin
<abushcrafterforg>
I have busybox they use cygron mod
<abushcrafterforg>
and I have start off with deleting market and its drm :)
<abushcrafterforg>
has gnome features but lacks other features and does not like long posts
<whitequark>
it's probably irc which has limit on line length
<whitequark>
or freenode
<GNUtoo>
kristianpaul, geeksphone one is qualcomm!!!
<GNUtoo>
kristianpaul, that makes it as bad as the htc dream
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<kristianpaul>
GNUtoo: ah !
<kristianpaul>
but
<kristianpaul>
if the release all source we get happy ;)
<abushcrafterforg>
no its that I can't see what I am writing.
<kristianpaul>
GNUtoo: so still OM phone beat the geek one i guess
<abushcrafterforg>
?
<GNUtoo>
kristianpaul, first they don't release all the source code
<abushcrafterforg>
yes qualcomm evil grrr
<GNUtoo>
second, the modem controls way too much
<abushcrafterforg>
now to switch too Instant Bird
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<abushcrafterfor1>
thats better
<abushcrafterfor1>
I wish I knew it's a spy device no matter what you do before I shide (can't spell) and said yes to dad. Maybe I had read before and forgot. Oh the cruse of it being cheaper at £60 or £70 :(
<GNUtoo>
altough paulk wants to do the gta04 first
<abushcrafterfor1>
any way I am not enjoying android. now to join #cyanogenmod and see what I can do to improve my citizen spy device a bit
<GNUtoo>
what device do you have?
<abushcrafterfor1>
Would ravar have gta04 but I don't have the money :(. maybe one day:)
<GNUtoo>
a galaxy S is cheap
<GNUtoo>
like between 150 and 200E
<GNUtoo>
so wait for it to be supported
<GNUtoo>
and once it's supported buy it
<viric>
gta04 is the name of a phone?
<abushcrafterfor1>
new version of board
<abushcrafterfor1>
smasung pay m$
<abushcrafterfor1>
£or was it $ 15 per phone
<GNUtoo>
why is that important? your freedom is more important than theses consideratiions
<GNUtoo>
viric, yes
<abushcrafterfor1>
I know. I am stressed about it already.
<viric>
abush: why do you want a fancy phone?
<abushcrafterfor1>
m$ of couse try to take away your freedom even when you don't use winloss
<abushcrafterfor1>
viric: read the log
<GNUtoo>
viric, let me explain in simple words
<abushcrafterfor1>
Ibut I will post again
<GNUtoo>
viric, are you aware that most non-free software spies or can spy?
<viric>
Yes.
<GNUtoo>
now knowing that, you may want free software controlling your phone because it would control the GPS, the microphone and such things
<viric>
for positioning, clear. tracking...
<GNUtoo>
now, to make that possible you need special hardware with a modem that is "isolated"
<viric>
and for the microphone, you could add some switch to it
<GNUtoo>
idealy the switch can be software
<GNUtoo>
like the main cpu(running replicant or SHR) controlling the switch
<viric>
ah, freedom and confort?
<viric>
comfort
<GNUtoo>
yes(if running replicant on a phone that is ok, like the nexus S)
<abushcrafterfor1>
can you add a switch to the GPS. It could talk to the gps right, the firmware stuff in the chip?
<abushcrafterfor1>
the can you is sarcastic
<GNUtoo>
basically the ideal phone has the following caracteristic:
<viric>
I don't have any gps
<GNUtoo>
* an isolated modem
<GNUtoo>
* only free software running on the main CPU(including bootloader etc...)
<GNUtoo>
the nexus S isn't that far from that
<GNUtoo>
it has the isolated modem
<GNUtoo>
but it has a non-free signed bootloader
<GNUtoo>
(and also has some non-free wifi+bluetooth firmwares)
<abushcrafterfor1>
geeksphone was £60 or was it £70 on evilbay }:|. I thought I could at least remove the non-free software so I have a 700mhz pocket computer with a vibrator unlike the Nano Note but then I (re?)lean that no matter what I do it will always be a citizen spy device due to evilware in the SOC! :(
<GNUtoo>
unless you're very good at reverse engineering and low level stuff
<abushcrafterfor1>
so in the end. its a disaster
<GNUtoo>
yes
<GNUtoo>
are you very good in C and low level?
<abushcrafterfor1>
well I could always blow it up with gunpowder :D
<abushcrafterfor1>
I have some :)
<abushcrafterfor1>
but I can't afford that
<GNUtoo>
the first thing to do is to get rid of the proprietary libraries
<GNUtoo>
it's doable
<abushcrafterfor1>
Thats what I made a start on
<GNUtoo>
then you'll need to go deeper in the modem
<abushcrafterfor1>
bye bye drm
<GNUtoo>
since it's a shared memory you could look into the modem's memory
<abushcrafterfor1>
I can't go that deep. Big newbie with no time
<GNUtoo>
and the countrary is valid too, the modem can look in the CPU memory
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
lovey
<GNUtoo>
then maybe get another phone
<abushcrafterfor1>
dad was not too keen on selling it (to some sucker). I guess he will have it. He don't care.
<GNUtoo>
a second hand galaxy S is not that expensive in europe, I don't know in countries like latin america where they have huges taxes on electronic devices comming from abroad
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
but no money for nano note
<GNUtoo>
I've no nanote either(I've already too much devices)
<abushcrafterfor1>
which I think is what I really would like.
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
getting fed up with android design desions. I guess I will have to make do and remove the battery :D
<abushcrafterfor1>
remove the battery a lot
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
how sad
<GNUtoo>
at least you are aware for the next phone....
<abushcrafterfor1>
yep
<abushcrafterfor1>
and I thought I knew, I had done the searching. darn memory. I didn't know all of what you lot have pointed out to me though. leaned some more :)
<abushcrafterfor1>
a trouble with Samsung is you lose your hardware warranty.
<abushcrafterfor1>
can't connect to #cyanogenmod hmm
<GNUtoo>
maybe you need to be registered on freenode for connecting on #cyanogenmod
<abushcrafterfor1>
I am
<abushcrafterfor1>
I forgot my password :D need to reset it
<GNUtoo>
but note that while cyanogenmod hate proprietary stuff, its users usually don't care about freedom and attack you on IRC if you do
<GNUtoo>
(its devs sometime reverse stuff because it's too hard to make the proprietary lib work)
<abushcrafterfor1>
oh no not more open sourcers
<abushcrafterfor1>
my brain now auto corrects things like linux to gnu/linux. I am now finding I have to go back and correct my self on articles about the kenal linux
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
I digress
<mth>
Android is not a GNU system though, I think; at least it has its own libc
<abushcrafterfor1>
I know
<GNUtoo>
as RMS says it "it has very little of GNU" or something like that
<abushcrafterfor1>
Are you compiling mplayer with the OSD menu enabled?
* GNUtoo
doesn't have a nanote....
<abushcrafterfor1>
are you = all people. Sorry not so good at quickly writing non rubbish.
<GNUtoo>
but I use OSD for mplayer
<GNUtoo>
like on freerunner
<lindi->
GNUtoo: rms does not use phones afaik so I wouldn't trust his analysis on that :)
<abushcrafterfor1>
takes me ages to write something decent and to do it properly properly
<lindi->
but I've looked at android sdk to get at least some kind of overview of what's going on
<GNUtoo>
lindi-, he was well informed(by me)
<abushcrafterfor1>
lol
<abushcrafterfor1>
I have based my menu on um geexbox
<abushcrafterfor1>
need to put on internet. though it's not finished.
<abushcrafterfor1>
one year
<abushcrafterfor1>
:)
<GNUtoo>
gitorious?
<abushcrafterfor1>
the FS one I was thinking
<abushcrafterfor1>
i forget name
<GNUtoo>
ok
<GNUtoo>
savanah?
<abushcrafterfor1>
yep
<abushcrafterfor1>
but if you want it now I could see about a quick dump.
<abushcrafterfor1>
You could get it off my using filetea.me i think thats the address
<abushcrafterfor1>
html5 p2p file transfer
<abushcrafterfor1>
cool stuff
<GNUtoo>
hmm what is it for exactly? a menu for the nanonote
<GNUtoo>
because I've no nanote
<abushcrafterfor1>
not just for nano note
<abushcrafterfor1>
It works very well on low res screens
<abushcrafterfor1>
large low res
<GNUtoo>
ok
<GNUtoo>
do you have screenshots?
<GNUtoo>
is it based on the efl? gtk?
<abushcrafterfor1>
I was devolping it when I used puppy
<abushcrafterfor1>
no gtk
<abushcrafterfor1>
Might more in frame buffer. I don't know
<abushcrafterfor1>
more = work
<GNUtoo>
what's puppy? a GNU/Linux distribution?
<abushcrafterfor1>
its displayed on top of the video. like subtitles
<abushcrafterfor1>
yep
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
a non-free one
<abushcrafterfor1>
it was to much mork update app manualy
<GNUtoo>
so....what was the toolkit name?
<abushcrafterfor1>
I don't think it has one
<GNUtoo>
and what distro do you use on your nanonote if you have one, openwrt? or jlime?
<abushcrafterfor1>
man mplayer
<abushcrafterfor1>
no idea.
<GNUtoo>
I know a bit mplayer
<GNUtoo>
but I usually develop stuff using the slave protocol
<abushcrafterfor1>
oh the osd menu is not very well documented.
<abushcrafterfor1>
bash me
<abushcrafterfor1>
lol
<GNUtoo>
ok
<abushcrafterfor1>
I see what can done with bash thanks to puppy
<GNUtoo>
but I never needed the OSD menu
<GNUtoo>
I made stuff like a radio application
<abushcrafterfor1>
its very quick
<GNUtoo>
in the tray bar
<GNUtoo>
that doesn't require osd at all
<abushcrafterfor1>
or right
<GNUtoo>
I don't know if I published it but it's very specific and hardcoded
<GNUtoo>
like radio addresses are hardcoded in the python program