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<qi-bot>
RTC Milkymist: @qihardware @xiangfu To be fair... this is still quite experimental and buggy in the current software release. ( 190962598609563648@milkymistvj - 54s ago via web )
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<yoss>
does anybody know how to calculate PER out of SNR values?
<yoss>
?
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<DocScrutinizer>
anybody heard sth of mickeyl? it's over 2 months now that he last showed up
<DocScrutinizer>
~seen mickeyl
<infobot>
mickeyl <~mickey@openmoko/coreteam/mickey> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 72d 11h 23m 56s ago, saying: 'gnight'.
<wpwrak>
have you tried sending him am mail ?
<wpwrak>
s/am/a
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "have you tried sending him a mail ?"
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<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: sent him a SMS
<DocScrutinizer>
not sure about the right number though
<DocScrutinizer>
well, the number once must've been the right one, and the SMS got delivered
<wolfspraul>
he is busy with his ios development firm and taking care of family
<wolfspraul>
you should try to contact his company about wanting to develop a new ios app, or applying for a dev job (he hired his 3rd developer recently, according to blog)
<wolfspraul>
I don't know more than the blog, but the blog is pretty clear to me...
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: <mrmoku> 05-04-2012 12:26:12 < mickey_office!~mickey@e182221015.adsl.alicedsl.de: we're finishing a bunch of apps this month, so i hope things will slow down soon
<DocScrutinizer>
so everything fine"
<DocScrutinizer>
just not very nice to scare people like me with not showing up on IRC at all for >2 months
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
somehow it seems I understood the situation quite well :-)
<wolfspraul>
1. family is priority #1
<wolfspraul>
2. making money, in his case with ios apps, is priority #2
<DocScrutinizer>
no priority #1 could stop me from cranking up IRC at least once or twice a week, if only to idle
<wolfspraul>
if open harwdare fails, I try my luck with a dev job at mickey's :-)
<wolfspraul>
ok but you are special
<DocScrutinizer>
no, mickey is special - he's #openmoko GC
<wolfspraul>
exactly :-)
<wolfspraul>
openmoko...
<DocScrutinizer>
well, if he doesn't care at all anymore, then he should nominate a co-GC
<wolfspraul>
maybe he can join qi in a few years
<wolfspraul>
when the kids are in school
<DocScrutinizer>
or pass the job to somebody else completely
<wolfspraul>
any takers? maybe he would be happy if someone takes over...
<wolfspraul>
I don't know
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't mind
<wolfspraul>
how many active gta01 and gta02 users are still around?
<DocScrutinizer>
err, #openmoko != gta0*
<DocScrutinizer>
or - to put it simple and generic - openmoko.org >> openmoko.com
<DocScrutinizer>
and for IRC all this doesn't matter
<DocScrutinizer>
user counts is all that matters
<DocScrutinizer>
for all the #openmoko* channels
<DocScrutinizer>
the GC owns all of them
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<DocScrutinizer>
anyway, scratch that all - all caused by mickey's annoying habit to change nickname
<DocScrutinizer>
and then not even registering to use his common cloak
<wpwrak>
iOS firm ? so DocScrutinizer's fears that something horrible and tragic may have happened to him were justified
<DocScrutinizer>
XP
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<viric>
wow, linux.com. congratulations wpwrak !
<wpwrak>
thanks ! :) nice article indeed
<wpwrak>
some of these days, i should finish my work on the atusb driver :)
<viric>
haha
<wpwrak>
i mean it works. just not very well.
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<viric>
:)
<viric>
wpwrak: can't you get kernel programmers to do this?
<wpwrak>
sure, someone else could do that too. it's both ends that need to change, though - atusb firmware and kernel
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm
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<viric>
ah
<viric>
the fw is the 8051 code?
<wpwrak>
i have some almost-finished code. just need to find the time for a context switch.
<wpwrak>
it's AVR
<viric>
ah
<wpwrak>
not that you'd notice much of a difference. since it's written in C anyway
<DocScrutinizer>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer>
real men code in FORTRAN. If it can't get done in FORTRAN, do it in assembler. If it can't get done in assembler, it's not worth being done at all
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<DocScrutinizer>
otoh the real programmer can write FORTRAN code in any programming language, even C ;)
<DocScrutinizer>
on a more serious comment: have you checked how good assembler from C is for AVR?
<DocScrutinizer>
s/assembler/machine code/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer meant: "on a more serious comment: have you checked how good machine code from C is for AVR?"
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<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: ^^
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<lindi->
DocScrutinizer: you are asking how good avr-gcc is?
<DocScrutinizer>
kinda, yes
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: i optimized C to assembler on some occasions on AVR. i could usually get efficient code. but it needs a bit of effort. picking the right register sizes, ordering code the right way, etc.
<lindi->
at least in the past it did not have separate address space support yet, I think this was changed recently
<lindi->
other issue was that it created quite a lot of extra overhead for interrupt handlers easily
<viric>
there is that c compiler that can do both 8051 and avr, no?
<Ierth>
Hi, sorry for my bad english. I'm a quite new user of nanonote and I can't reflash it because I can't install xburst-tools : a dependance don't want to be compiled. Can you help me please ?
<viric>
post the error
<Ierth>
gtype-desc.c:9164:31: erreur: subscripted value is neither array nor pointer nor vector
<viric>
where did you get xburst-tools from?
<viric>
(to check that exact file)
<DocScrutinizer>
I frequently get baffled when running Lauterbach against ARM code generated from C with RCT (RVT?) compiler.
<Ierth>
Sorry, the dependance is cross-mipsel-linux-gnu-gcc. I'm on Archlinux, sow i get it and xburst-tools from AUR.
<DocScrutinizer>
sometimes it's next to impossible to understand which line of c code the current instruction belongs to
<lindi->
gcc, gdb and systemtap at least understand line numbers
<DocScrutinizer>
sure, but what to do when your line 800 gets interleaved partially between lines 830, 850, and 910?
<lindi->
DocScrutinizer: you make smaller functions :)
<DocScrutinizer>
haha
<DocScrutinizer>
so the compiler can inline them later on?
<DocScrutinizer>
which it does a lot
<viric>
Ierth: ah, that file is in the mipsel gcc, or in xburst-tools?
<viric>
Ierth: maybe you should contact the maintainer of that AUR thing. All I can do is to help you install the nix package manager, and have xburst-tools from nix.
<viric>
because I use every oportunity to make people use nix
<Ierth>
Hum... I think it's just a file which need xburst-tools. Yaourt say me (in french) : ==> D
<Ierth>
But I don't know nix, what is it ?
<viric>
a package manager
<viric>
hm don't you understand what fails?
<viric>
I mean... I thought Arch users were aware of compilation troubles, building packages, ... :)
<Ierth>
Hmm, sometime i understand, but not now. u_u
<viric>
do you know C?
<Ierth>
I'll ask on archlinux's channel. I know C, but not enought to understand the error line I pasted you.
<DocScrutinizer>
lindi-: in fact the compiler does the equivalent to code, of transformation (a+b)^2 -> a^2 + 2ab + b^2
<viric>
the error line is not enough
<viric>
we'd have to see the contents of that file, and maybe of other files too.
<DocScrutinizer>
then on the 2nd form it does weird optimizations and spreads it all across the code
<DocScrutinizer>
amazing optimizer
<Ierth>
Urf. I'm not used to go so far when some installation falls. I generally search the package somewhere else or search a solution on Internet.
<viric>
Ierth: well, it's hard to help without detailed information about your system and what is it doing at installation time (versions involved, etc.)
<lindi->
llvm also does quite many interesting optimizations
<viric>
Ierth: maybe you should find some good willing person that uses Arch linux, reproduces your problem and fixes it.
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: :-D
<DocScrutinizer>
*burp*
<Ierth>
Hmm, maybe. Do you want a pastebin about the installation (maybe you will see what file crash the installation) ?
<DocScrutinizer>
I probably should get used to using -O0 or whatever when debugging code at work
<viric>
Ierth: but I'd need the exact version too
<viric>
Ierth: if that's included, fine
<viric>
but the fix will involve changing the AUR recipes, sure
<viric>
And I've no idea about how to do that
<Ierth>
Ok, the compilation is very big, I'll post just the 5-6 lines before the error. Programm with version : cross-mipsel-linux-gnu-gcc 4.6.0-2
<viric>
the compilation of what?
<Ierth>
I'll try to contact the person who made this package to tell him the error.
<viric>
no, make the full paste if possible
<viric>
ah, that's better
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<viric>
have you heard about electricity counters 'Pachelbel'?
<Ierth>
Very big compilation, my terminal can't contain all. So, wait a little please, I will do again it.
<Ayla>
that was supposed to create a working image to be flashed with usbboot, I think
<wpwrak>
viric: "they" = the argentine national government
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<viric>
wpwrak: I don't know the details.
<viric>
wpwrak: but that made the Spanish gov say "Any attack against Repsol is an attack against the Kingdom of Spain!"
<viric>
Shameful, because most company owners aren't event from Spain
<viric>
even
<viric>
And of course has nothing to do with the citizens of Spain.
<viric>
But here we have very easy paths between the companies linked to Energy, and the Government
<viric>
When someone in the government finishes his charge, goes working in an Energy company as 'adviser'.
<viric>
magically.
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's pretty common everywhere :)
<viric>
no matter the ministry. Education, Health, ... :)
<wpwrak>
but what else but make threats can they do if the argentine government is basically trying to confiscate YPF ?
<wpwrak>
they justify it with YPF not investing enough. of course, with government-controlled prices, government-imposed restrictions on currency export, and so on, it's not surprise that investment would be slow
<wpwrak>
also, none of this bothered them during the last 9 years. why suddenly now ?
<viric>
I don't doubt there have been very doubtful movements in the acquisition of YPF by Repsol
<viric>
Here this happens regularly... when the right wing comes to power, they start up selling public owned assets.
<viric>
Which "of course" then they are unrecoverable (unless they bankrupt and have a big debt hole the goverment has to pay)
<wpwrak>
well, YPF and repsol went through several iteration. and the "sell all assets" policy ended well over a decade ago.
<viric>
well, I'm deciding more on prejudice of other movements I've read from Repsol, than on the concrete study of this case.
<qi-bot>
Fabricatorz: Milkymist One Gets Rowdy and Jazzy In Warsaw. Live video synthesis and open hardware http://t.co/lcHl1RoN | @milkymistvj @qihardware #VJ ( 191204886195605504@fabricatorz - 10s ago via Ping.fm )
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<qi-bot>
RTC Milkymist: RT @qihardware: RT @fabricatorz: Milkymist One Gets Rowdy and Jazzy In Warsaw Live video synthesis, open hardware http://t.co/iJjjSZWh #VJ ( 191206609731600385@milkymistvj - 19s ago via HootSuite )
<wpwrak>
viric: nothing in argentina's current economical policy is deserving of your sympathy. after the elections, they went from dubious and awkward to stark raving mad
<viric>
ok
<wpwrak>
viric: e.g., one recent stunt was to institute a de facto ban on the import of books and other printed material
<wpwrak>
viric: of course, they didn't cal it a ban. instead, they came up with the idea that the lead content of the ink would have to be checked before books, journals, etc., can enter the country
<mth>
Ayla: afaik the issue is that the Dingoo has 4K flash pages while the JZ boot code can handle 512-byte or 2K pages
<wpwrak>
viric: even better, if these things were sent by courier, there would be only one customs checkpoint where they all are held - the international airport of buenos aires. so if you, say, live in mendoza, you'd have to travel some 1000 km to buenos aires to do the customs procedure to get your books
<mth>
to work around that, the first half of the 4K page contains 2K of data and the second half contain the OOB area
<mth>
(so most of the second half is unused)
<wpwrak>
viric: following the angry reaction of the literate class, the government eventually decided to drop that thing. although they didn't exclude bringing it back later
<Ayla>
mth: nandwrite can write a "raw" image without adding OOB data, so maybe we could prepare an image with a custom OOB layout
<mth>
it's no problem if the OOB data for the 4K page is written as usual
<mth>
it's just that you have to package a 2K page + its OOB and put that inside the data area of a 4K page
<mth>
I don't know what OOB format the boot code expects, but booboo must have figured that out
<whitequark>
but what exactly would "kill" the motherboard here?
<whitequark>
spurious currents? electrolysis byproducts? and what'll be if I would just wash them off?
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<roh>
hey there
<roh>
.oO(wasnt argentinia bankrupt? and spain... well they are soon too.)
<roh>
in bankrupcy things do not need to make sense neccessarily.. check out berlin. capital of germany and still bankrupt for over a decade
<viric>
wpwrak: here the police is getting stronger weapons against "attempts to destroy the established public order". This week they changed the laws so "pacific resistance to police orders" is considered "attack to an authority".
<viric>
wpwrak: and "organizing massive public meetings for possibly violent acts" changed into "belonging to a criminal organization".
<viric>
They say they would make "vandalic acts" to be treated as "terrorism".
<viric>
And I think Spain has such shameful laws, like "torture" being allowed if it is "against terrorism".
<viric>
(vandalict act = burying a dust bin on the street)
<viric>
whitequark: maybe it has to do with the materials of some capacitors/resistors, or having some electrolytic having inverse polarity, ...
<viric>
bah, it's my blind guess. who knows. :)
<viric>
Of course, if any electronic gets wet, the first thing to do is to remove any power supply, be it cable or battery
<viric>
electronics.
<viric>
:)
<viric>
whitequark: хотя это не одна капля
<whitequark>
heh
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<DocScrutinizer>
whitequark: electrolysis creating ions which are radicals (H+, OH- iirc), both quite aggressive
<DocScrutinizer>
if you wash dirt (oxidized metal) off before anything got rotten fubar, then dry it, usually all shall still work
<DocScrutinizer>
I do that frequently
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<DocScrutinizer>
the "trick" is to remove any power before permanent severe damage happens, then thoroughly wash off all dirt with water and other solvent liquids, then the most "tricky" part: dry it all thoroughly. washing with 99% alcohol as last rinse helps a lot on that, as 99% alc is rather hygroscopic
<DocScrutinizer>
of course you may encounter damaged electronic parts due to changed "circuit" caused by "shorts" from water
<viric>
96% alcohol is not good enough?
<DocScrutinizer>
then no washing will help :-D
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm, dunno
<DocScrutinizer>
the higher percentage the better
<viric>
I had a spray at home that was very good at removing oxid from boards...
<viric>
I had totally ruined boards that were left new
<DocScrutinizer>
after all you want to evaporate the liquid, and when there's 4% water in it that's worse than 1%
<viric>
aha
<viric>
well, usually I dry some days.
<DocScrutinizer>
weeks rather than days
<viric>
:)
<DocScrutinizer>
water can be very persistent when in a sub-millimeter gap under a chip
<viric>
yes...
<viric>
there are always chances :)
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why alc
<DocScrutinizer>
presurized air also nice
<DocScrutinizer>
some 5 to 10 bar
<DocScrutinizer>
should be waterfree though ;-D
<DocScrutinizer>
pressurized air can hold amazing amounts of water
<viric>
how alcohol helps removing water in small gaps?
<viric>
I'm quite bad at chemistry
<viric>
(yes, I remember quite well the water in pressurized air from a compressor)
<DocScrutinizer>
it mixes extremely well with water, dilluting and replacing it
<viric>
ah ok
<viric>
hm fire alcohol is 98% iirc... but has that ink.
<DocScrutinizer>
and alcohol is less conductive than water
<DocScrutinizer>
so water, air, alc, air, heat&time. Yielded good results
<DocScrutinizer>
all of that plenty of it
<DocScrutinizer>
except heat which shouldn't exceed 80°C
<viric>
ha, I used alcohol to cool down things ;)
<viric>
80°C? hm so little?
<viric>
hmmm
<viric>
alcohol in boiling water would fire? grr
<viric>
DocScrutinizer: ethanol has an ignition temperature of 425°C
<viric>
(for that 96% thing I have)
<viric>
(I took that temperature from a search result of a search engine :)
<DocScrutinizer>
doesn't matter, your hardware won't cope with high temperatures for long times, some might even fail in minutes at >100°
<Ayla>
is it possible to change the console font at runtime?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer: yeah, I thought so
<whitequark>
thanks for confirmation
<DocScrutinizer>
whitequark: YW
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<DocScrutinizer>
whitequark: btw if voltage is under electrolytic limit of water, probably way less will happen. Alas I can't recall if electrolytic threshold of water was 1.2V or 1.8 or even >2
<DocScrutinizer>
you can design circuits that will work perfectly for months under water, without any isolation or sealing case
<whitequark>
oh, now that's something entierly new for me
<whitequark>
none of my chemistry classes mentioned that
<DocScrutinizer>
no sarcasm please
<mth>
font change at runtime is possible: I saw that happen during the boot sequence on earlier SUSE releases
<DocScrutinizer>
I just thought it's worth mentioning it as usually people tend to forget
<mth>
although that was with an actual text mode, not fb console
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer: no sarcasm
<whitequark>
I really didn't know about that
<whitequark>
and none of them really did mention it
<whitequark>
and so I was extremely surprised, because, when I still was at university, not only they were kind of important for my specialization, but I also enjoyed them and still remember every interesting fact
<whitequark>
same for high school
<whitequark>
weird
<whitequark>
I shoulda ask my friends. maybe it's just my memory
<DocScrutinizer>
>>In turn, the minimum electrolytic potential for electrolysis of water or 1.23 V. Thus, any current (I) at applied voltage (V) greater than 1.23 V is an overvoltage and results in waste heat