<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-xtal/atben.c: mention that the AT86RF230 driver can also be disabled http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d184d1d
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/atben.c (atben_open): corrected comment claiming the clock was 316 MHz http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/89bcd3c
<mth>
in gmenu2x, do we have to support 24bpp? the non-padded version, I mean, as opposed to 32bpp of which 8 bits are unused
<mth>
kristianpaul: he was banned and then kicked
<wolfspraul>
maybe it will just time out?
<kristianpaul>
ah +b
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: can you do op?
<wpwrak>
mth: draw, then quarter. traditional justice ;-)
<wpwrak>
er schlaegt  /mode #qi-hardware <user>  vor
<kristianpaul>
i think is matter of aply -b flag to his nick..
<wpwrak>
oops  /mode #qi-hardware <user> -q
<mth>
someone needs to become operator first
<wpwrak>
grmbl. LANG didn't survive the context switch, sorry
<kristianpaul>
ah.. :-)
<mth>
afaik you ask ChanServ to make you operator
<kristianpaul>
lets ask qi-bot ;)
<mth>
kristianpaul: be careful, it you're not super polite it might ban you ;)
<kristianpaul>
lol
<kristianpaul>
mth: you mean this 24bp is obsolte in the code?
<wolfspraul>
well I'm not an op either
<wolfspraul>
there is a console somewhere, lemme see...
<mth>
kristianpaul: I'd like to remove it because it would simplify the code, but I don't know if there is still hardware we'd like to support that uses non-padded 24bpp
<kristianpaul>
mth: not for now i think :-)
<mth>
afaik the NanoNote uses 32bpp and the Dingoo uses 16bpp
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
that will mean break upstream..
<kristianpaul>
cant it became optional instead?
<kristianpaul>
s/cant/can
<mth>
it's quite possible no device supported by gmenu2x uses this format
<mth>
this code is from SFont, which is about 10 years old
<kristianpaul>
:/
<mth>
maybe older when it was first written
<wolfspraul>
don't know, this eggdrop thing is too cryptic for me
<wolfspraul>
let me just restart qi-bot, maybe that helps...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: maybe you can ask chanserv to give you op status ?
<wolfspraul>
bah there's so many settings and flags in all this
<wolfspraul>
I have no idea...
<kristianpaul>
/msg ChanServ op #qi-hardware wolfspraul
<kristianpaul>
just try..
<wolfspraul>
you mean I should type that?
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
you are not authorized to perform this operation
<kristianpaul>
:/
<wpwrak>
defeated by the bots ;-)
<kristianpaul>
sooner or later..
<mth>
"/msg ChanServ access #qi-hardware list" lists vegyraupe and qi-bot as having special access rights
<kristianpaul>
ha wpwrak is the owner
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul*
<kristianpaul>
/msg qi-bot  op _password_
<wolfspraul>
you mean I should type that?
<kristianpaul>
so that should give you op, so you can do more
<wolfspraul>
if the bot remembers, I am sure we can cause a little amnesia to the bot. the question is what is faster - just wait or find out on the server where/how the bot remembers?
<wpwrak>
so, no Sarah Connor award for you ?
<wpwrak>
seems that DocScrutinizer went to bed. so i guess the wait-for-timeout won't hurt. well, maybe it'll disturb his dreams
<kristianpaul>
ok
<DocScrutinizer>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer>
wow
<DocScrutinizer>
sorry for nickflooding
<kristianpaul>
wb
<wpwrak>
whee, the return of DocScrutinizer !
<wpwrak>
and the Sarah Connor award for wolfspraul ! ;-)
<larsc>
the terminator wants to kill him?
<wpwrak>
he boldly resisted the cruel and inhumane rule of the machines
<DocScrutinizer>
you should add some entries to your access list ;-D
<wpwrak>
yeah, e.g., give channel op all those who have root on the server hosting qi-bot. that would be very natural mapping ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
chanserv role MANAGER seems ok (and also is default for new access list entries afaik)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/README: boot loader flashing time was a bit too optimistic (15 -> 30 s) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6179f31
<kyak>
xiangfu: someone set the +r mode, only registered nicks can join
<kyak>
i'd say, +s is enough to hide this channel from unrelated users :)
<kyak>
+s = hide from the channel list
<kyak>
well, if it even bothers someone to kick out ocassional users who saw "hardware" in the channels name :)
<kyak>
they are usually all right and don't stumle in here very often
<kyak>
wolfspraul: we should have regular ops among users here, and preferrably one or two persons taking care of qi-bot :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: feel free to give yourself whatever super power you need
<kyak>
wolfspraul: the problem xiangfu sees is coming from "+r" mode, whoever set it for whatever reason
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
let's remove it
<wolfspraul>
my problem is that there is really a _myriad_ of options in IRC land
<wolfspraul>
and then helpful 'bots' whether they are called ChanServ, or qi-bot, or whatever adding even more on top
<kyak>
wolfspraul: do you have a password for bot's console or i may as well reset it?
<wolfspraul>
wait
<xiangfu>
I am also trying to login qi-bot :)
<wolfspraul>
someone this morning said the #qi-hardware channel was 'hidden'
<wolfspraul>
well, maybe it was (don't know where), and maybe now it's not, but as a side-effect it's now invite-only?
<kyak>
it's not invite only right now, only registered (with nickserv) nicks can join
<xiangfu>
and also it's 'hidden' now
<kyak>
so, what do we want to do?
<kyak>
change the nick-fllod limit
<wolfspraul>
I don't even know what that exactly is/means
<wolfspraul>
since DocScrutinizer seems to have accidentally run into it, sure, let's raise it
<wolfspraul>
but I don't know what it means :-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: was it hidden before?
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: no
<kyak>
that's exactly what DocScrutinizer ran into
<wolfspraul>
it never occured to me that the channel was hidden, but now it indeed does look hidden to me as well :-)
<kyak>
limit for nick changes/per time
<wolfspraul>
kyak: it seems we went to a higher hidden level
<kyak>
do you want it to be hidden from channel list?
<wolfspraul>
of course not
<wolfspraul>
and I don't think it was, but maybe it became somehow?
<wolfspraul>
why should it be hidden?
<wolfspraul>
sure let's increase the nick flood
<wolfspraul>
current limit is 5 changes in 60 seconds?
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering how DocScrutinizer managed to run into that? :-)
<kyak>
nick flood threshold changed from 5:60 to 10:60 (10 changes in 60 seconds are allowed )
<wolfspraul>
maybe increase to 10:60 ?
<wolfspraul>
perfect!
<kyak>
:)
<xiangfu>
we also needs '-r'
<kyak>
oh yes
<kyak>
+c stands for "no color"
<kyak>
do we need it?
<xiangfu>
i'd vote 'kyak' as op, for co-work with qi-bot :)
<kyak>
+p is for not seeing the channel in "whois" output
<kyak>
also removed it..
<wolfspraul>
no color?
<wolfspraul>
no idea, I don't know what it means practically
<wolfspraul>
can we remember these things in /home/eggdrop/eggdrop.conf ?
<kyak>
4like this
<wolfspraul>
oh - red!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: not sure if your client can handle color though :)
<wolfspraul>
it can - irssi with ratpoison window manager :-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: yeah, this things i'm doing now are remembered in channel file, but can also be inserted inside the config file
<wolfspraul>
maybe in the config file is better?
<wolfspraul>
put it where it's most sticky...
<kyak>
sure, i'll move it to config when we're done :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: so we have to modify those channel add #qi-hardware {
<xiangfu>
    chanmode "+nt-likm"
<xiangfu>
}
<xiangfu>
then restart the eggdrop , should be ok, right?
<kyak>
xiangfu: yep.. and some other.. i'll handle that
<xiangfu>
thanks.
<wolfspraul>
kyak: oh, I didn't want to have op rights
<wolfspraul>
the reason is that I'm worried I will accidentally turn on some bad big switch
<wolfspraul>
so in general I keep all my accounts at the privileges setting that I regularly and actually need
<wolfspraul>
so I feel good and relaxed using my accounts, not worried about a rm -rf / mistake
<kyak>
wolfspraul:Â Â :)
<wolfspraul>
just peace for my mind, means I can still work with a beer or two :-)
<wolfspraul>
if I would max out the privileges of my accounts everywhere, just for whatever sake, I'd go nuts
<wolfspraul>
kewl, thanks. back to normal happy user :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: DocScrutinizer ran into the limit because he did something he shouldn't have done in the first place. he keeps a lot of nicks (variations of Doc*), and he iterated through all of them, to "refresh" them with NickServ (an unused nick expires after some 10 weeks).
<kyak>
i think he should use "nick groups" (as seen in "/ns help group") for the nicks not to expire
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: nothing wrong with this per se, but he shouldn't have done this while in a channel (kinda rude to flood all the people with a lot of nick changes)
<wolfspraul>
I see.
<wolfspraul>
well it seems kyak has gotten everything back under control now :-)
<wolfspraul>
order is restored
<wpwrak>
kyak: "Please note that grouped nicks expire separately from accounts" does this really help ?
<wpwrak>
yeah, at least we found that we had a power vacuum and that the evil machines had started to creep into it ;-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: hehe :)
<kyak>
heh
<kyak>
i just realized nf_conntrack_irc won't work for SSL connections
<kyak>
i guess i'll assign a range of ports manually for DCC then
<wpwrak>
maybe i should convert all the huge files from the 3d scans to a format that looks like source, e.g., xwd, to get them counted as well. that should nicely boost the value ;-)
<wpwrak>
the absence of a ya making itself felt ...
<wpwrak>
it shows on the mailing list and irc activity as well. the project is definitely slowing down.
<wpwrak>
heise just picked up the $25 computer. they're a bit slow. let's see if they have a boring enough day that they'd even scrape the bottom for things like ubb-vga :)
<lekernel>
simply everyone picks up that junk...
<lekernel>
I wish the same happened for our stories, but for some reason it's just not the case
<kyak>
cause it sounds nice.. "a 25$ computer"
<kyak>
who cares about details
<lekernel>
maybe that's one factor...
<wpwrak>
kyak: yeah, while huge megacorps are struggling for a decade with the $100 computer, some clever hacker does the $25 computer in his basement. it's hard to argue with that ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: (our stories) let's be honest: the whole nanonote branch doesn't produce much in terms of stories these days. there are certainly people out there who never heard of it and would be interested, but you can't just keep on broadcasting the same message over and over until you're sure everyone has heard it.
<kyak>
wpwrak: plus, someone mentioned correctly in ML that the article is heavily exploiting the charity issue
<wolfspraul>
it's not junk, I think the story is good
<wpwrak>
lekernel: for mm1, there's still the small issue that even we don't seem to have a clear marketing message for it :)
<lekernel>
maybe we should cry that the semiconductor companies are evil. even if it's a mere lie, if that's the price to pay to get stories picked up ...
<wolfspraul>
I don't care at all about that 25 USD usb stick computer announcement, but the story is good imo
<wolfspraul>
don't be negative unless you have to
<wpwrak>
kyak: charity is always good :) the nanonote could be a "$100 laptop for SMALL children" ;-)
<kyak>
how about flooding Africa with charitable nanonotes? :)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: get yourself sued by apple, then you have your story ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the 'm1 shown to lgm audience' story is nice, I'm not sure we get enough juicy details for a release though, and a well written text
<wolfspraul>
we know in a few days, last chance to release it is probably Thursday or so, hopefully then with some jaw-dropping details about reaction of the audience
<wolfspraul>
"people were stunned"
<wpwrak>
kyak: hmm, wolfgang could donate a few hundred to some charitable project ...
<kyak>
and only hope it would pay off
<wpwrak>
"mm1 at lgm" would probably become just "lgm" with a list of things happening there. but i think that's okay. gives a bit fewer visitors, but they may be better quality.
<wpwrak>
kyak: the real cost depends on the estimate of how many of the bens in stock will turn sour there anyway. the current demand seems fairly low.
<wpwrak>
kyak: but of course, you can play that card only 1-2 times. the number of units would have to be "significant", i.e., >> 100, even for a small operation like sharism.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, how did things progress on the order front in the end ? you mentioned that a few came in on saturday. how did sunday and monday go ?
<wolfspraul>
I think about 6 on the first day, 4 on the second day, then zero for 2 days I think
<wolfspraul>
some more with David for sure
<wpwrak>
kyak: a problem with charity is that you can't just airdrop a container of stuff and be done with it. things need someone to make them usable locally. so you need to find them, get them interested, and at least get them to think they can use it.
<wolfspraul>
pretty good I think, considering the context and all
<wpwrak>
phew. a lot of work for the marketing department per unit :)
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, all investment into the future
<wpwrak>
but yes, the context is weakish. it's more a curiosity notice than a "go and buy now" item
<wolfspraul>
kyak: do you have a proposal for the headline of a milkymist story? just anything on your mind...
<kyak>
wpwrak: yeah, i already imagine how hard would it be to explain these poor kids how to run "MS Word" on Ben :")
<wpwrak>
(future) yeah, spreading the word. the next time, people will have heard of the project, etc.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i'm not sure.. was there some party at lgm involving mm?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
kyak: find a place where they're not brainwashed enough yet ;-) maybe some pygmies for whom anything larger would be too big anyway. they'll be genuinely grateful :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, but think completely free
<wolfspraul>
what always works is "milkymist one on final space shuttle mission"
<wolfspraul>
"VJ killed by cargo load of m1 boxes at big music event"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
"mm1 suspected in shuttle explosion"
<wolfspraul>
yeah!
<wpwrak>
"[...] unnamed sources have confirmed prior concerns about the power input protection circuit [...]"
<wolfspraul>
you can also do this whole 'leak' nonsense
<wpwrak>
"mm1 effect makes you look like elvis"
<kyak>
--)
<wolfspraul>
maybe the leak was saying that Intel is secretly investing in the Milkymist SoC
<wolfspraul>
nah, I hate this stuff
<wolfspraul>
better something with people
<wolfspraul>
that's why I like the m1@lgm story
<wolfspraul>
people people people
<wpwrak>
"secret annex to 1st testament found in mm1 bitstream"
<wpwrak>
"hardware-accelerated vj syntesizer cracks encryption of secret video of osama assassination"
<wolfspraul>
I think we can extract enough stories out of the video synthesizer as a product. what you can do with it, why experimenting with it is cool, etc.
<kyak>
"Milkymist: the only One survived the party"
<wolfspraul>
post-pc era (although I would avoid that term)
<wolfspraul>
it can even be a text about video synthesis that only later gets to the sales point of m1
<wpwrak>
telling the world that you're the harbinger of a new era has always been an effective means to gather people for your cause ;-)
<wpwrak>
yeah. some clever video synthesis hack can work quite nicely. establish the mm1 as the video lab workbench of choice. also works with the ce angle, cf. those PS3 supercomputers
<wolfspraul>
well right now I focus on my lgm story. either I can get that complete and interesting and released, or I failed. the devil is in the detail, as usual.
<wolfspraul>
yes! [clever video synthesis hack]
<wpwrak>
where have previous lgm conferences been covered ?
<wolfspraul>
the hack can be the reason you get the story, m1 just happens to be the tool for the hack
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
no idea, I don't know how professional that whole lgm thing is
<kyak>
or, "Milkymist One sets the party free"
<wolfspraul>
first I need m1 to be used there, I need credible audience reactions, I need a little story (2-3 paragraphs) about how it went there, I need a picture, etc.
<wpwrak>
like the usrp gets traction just because half of all the rf hacks use it somewhere
<wolfspraul>
and I'm on the other side of the world, so now I can only wait
<kyak>
wpwrak: otherwise, pilots are partying all the time :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: "vj activist Sebastien Bourdeauducq arrested for selling supercomputer technology to cuba"
<kyak>
:))
<wpwrak>
grmbl. it's today. there should have been an announcement on the qi-hw list last week.
<wpwrak>
no link to LGM ?
<kyak>
the man known as "he, who never sleeps, but only takes cat naps" got his house full of secret agents after triggering a limit of banned words in IRC
<kyak>
oh, i forgot to mentioned mm :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: with the may news probably becoming part of the june news, how about pushing out any public events scheduled within the next 4-5 weeks ? e.g., sebastien has two events in the next four days already !
<wolfspraul>
two events? don't know
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: that news is not complete, the date is preliminary
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: you are aware that a access list entry not automatically enables you to do "bad things" by accident?
<DocScrutinizer>
actually freenode suggests NOT to use +O (auto-op)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: there you have two events listed for sebastien: amsterdam on the 12th, paris on the 14th
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I'd feel uncomfortable with control over channel is completely depending on a working instance of a bot not related to the chan infra. And I never seen anybody doing a "typo" like /msg chanserve kickban wolfspraul
<DocScrutinizer>
only bots do that ;-P
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (news date) yeah. seems that mm1 may get mentioned only on the 13th. maybe it's not too late to post to the list, in case someone is in the area and wants to pop in
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: most people probably just stick needles into their little wolfspraul doll ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: oh you mean we should pre-announce m1@lgm? that's a good idea! the thing is - I am not there myself.
<wolfspraul>
so I don't want to make up all sorts of things, and maybe reality is entirely different
<wolfspraul>
I finished my part of the lgm story (the draft), now let's see
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: by "anybody" I meant one of the nicks that can actually do, there are sometimes a lot, e.g /msg chanserv access #maemo list (which has been even longer at times)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: we should pre-announce all public events. what's the point of reading a week later that you just missed it ? :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: just write what rejon has told you he'll do ?
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: a access list entry is not like being root, it's more like having sudo permission
<DocScrutinizer>
just don't use O
<DocScrutinizer>
grrr +O
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i'm not sure if he'll actually talk about the mm1 / include it in a talk. but i think he'll have one to demo it on some occasions, no ?
<wolfspraul>
I am not sure what will really happen, and it is just plain impossible/unthinkable for me that I write this 'story' completely like a novel, like how it could be.
<wolfspraul>
if we cannot make it complete, we have a draft for next time...
<wolfspraul>
I need the text of what actually happened, audience reaction (quote), picture
<wolfspraul>
none of which I can provide, no matter how long I stare at my keyboard & screen in Beijing
<wolfspraul>
I could write out the text a bit more, talk about m1 availability etc. but that's hard as long as the main meat is missing, because it would follow after that
<wolfspraul>
so we see
<wolfspraul>
tomorrow we know more
<wolfspraul>
Jon showed up in #milkymist today asking how to update his m1 to the latest software
<wolfspraul>
that's a good sign
<wpwrak>
no no, not a novel. an announcement. "rejon will attend LGM and have a MM1 with him"
<wolfspraul>
too thin imo
<wpwrak>
or if there's a talk, "rejon will show the MM1 in his talk at LGM, Friday May 13, 17:00"
<wolfspraul>
the idea was to use it in between talks
<wolfspraul>
which could be really cool
<wolfspraul>
at that time people would be free to walk up to it, the camera (which he has) could point to them, he could play some nice CC music
<wpwrak>
also good. if you're curious about MM1 and you're near montreal, you may decide to drop in
<wolfspraul>
sebastien tried to rush the twitter feature into it, not sure whether it made it or not but that would be great too
<wolfspraul>
if Jon can get the twitter feature onto his m1 and working, people sitting in the audience can post/project messages
<wolfspraul>
yes we will get some bitcoin client or so onto the Ben, goes well in line with the wallet idea
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: they don't say all that much. you can do the same about LGM.
<lekernel>
we should sell stuff on bitcoin :-)
<wpwrak>
then ben could calculate bitcoins while in the pocket. a self-filling wallet ;-)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: you there? DocScrutinizer was asking about some certain powers to be bestowed upon him (in #qi-hardware)
<lekernel>
forbes headline "Want to buy socks or psilocybin without being traced? Bitcoins are for you."
<lekernel>
...
<lekernel>
not good in fact. now governments have a reason to stop bitcoin ...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: seems that they want governments to stamp on bitcoins :)
<wpwrak>
s/stamp/stomp/
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
bitcoin seems like a great experiment to me, right now is the testing phase whether the software is bug-free :-)
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer: is it what you want?
<wpwrak>
i somehow don't think they missed that angle when they wrote it
<DocScrutinizer>
kyak: I offered wolfspraul to add me on chnnel's access list
<wpwrak>
(the article)
<lekernel>
it could work e.g. for small milkymist goodies, like the jtag/serial adapter
<DocScrutinizer>
for a fallback when qi-bot is down or whatever
<wolfspraul>
I don't even know what/where the 'access list' is, so if kyak knows and can do it - great.
<wolfspraul>
I will first get bitcoin software onto the Ben
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer: it's done :)
<wolfspraul>
so people can have a balance there, and can make transactions
<wolfspraul>
then we can use it so people can reward creators of free works, very easily
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: /msg chanserv access #qi-hardware list
<wolfspraul>
we could even sell a Ben with some bitcoins preloaded
<wolfspraul>
all hypothetical, this stuff is early but I think it's an interesting project
<DocScrutinizer>
kyak: ok, I'm a lazy chanop on this chan, so ping me if sth needs my anttentian, please
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer: sure :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how about "Jon Phillips will have a MM1 at LGM and plans to demo it between talks" ? that's about as non-committal as you can get :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: add the two events from sebastien, plus an excuse that you're too overloaded to do a proper community news release this month, and you're done
<wpwrak>
strace eggdrop | post-to-irc
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: ??
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: the "verbose flag" bit sounded a little scary :)
<DocScrutinizer>
it's been chanserv flag, so while I'm unaware of its particular meaning, I think it's not THAT bad
<DocScrutinizer>
/cs help flags
<DocScrutinizer>
-ChanServ- VERBOSEÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Notifies channel about access list modifications.
<lunavorax_mini>
Hi all
<DocScrutinizer>
/cs help set
<kyak>
wpwrak: just playing around with freenode's services :) they are a bit different from what i was used to
<DocScrutinizer>
a completely safe and resonable thing to have, to notice when anybody is messing with access lists
<lunavorax_mini>
Did anyone read/heard about the Rasberry Pi ?
<DocScrutinizer>
in fact I'd keep it
<lekernel>
{#~#{[§ if this were #milkymist you'd be kicked
<wolfspraul>
lunavorax_mini: what do you think about the project?
<wolfspraul>
Rasberry Pi I mean
<lunavorax_mini>
I'm very sceptical.
<DocScrutinizer>
kyak: I suggest you keep VERBOSE for chanserv
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: see :-)
<wolfspraul>
you spoke too soon
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer: sure, let's keep it
<wolfspraul>
lunavorax_mini: now you and lekernel can be eternal friends...
<wolfspraul>
</irony>
<lunavorax_mini>
Haha
<wolfspraul>
is that thing even open/copyleft hardware?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: you'd make a good rapper with all that hate ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I didn't look into the details
<lekernel>
there are no details, just an empty page
<wolfspraul>
will they publish the schematics, layout, bom?
<lunavorax_mini>
wolfspraul, I'm sceptical mostly because it looks like a "toy for the rich" and nothing else. I don't think the Raspberry can achieve it's "education" goal.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: how about an anti-arduino, anti-rasberry rap video, lyrics by lekernel, video my milkymist ? ;-)
<lekernel>
I'm not anti arduino
<wolfspraul>
lunavorax_mini: I would of course agree with you on that.
<DocScrutinizer>
ok, works (like that )
<wolfspraul>
the best thing for poor people right now is probably a cheap android smartphone
<wolfspraul>
once you have that, and it may only cost 50 USD or so, then basically you are first limited by lack of knowledge/understanding, not by lack of technology
<lunavorax_mini>
wolfspraul, indeed, but still android phones aren't that open to understand programming and stuff.
<wolfspraul>
so you can grow a lot personally with that thing, if you have the motivation to do so
<wolfspraul>
well yes, but I'm just saying from the practical perspective of a poor 12-year old in the Philippines, Pakistan, Indonesia, China, etc.
<wolfspraul>
if that's the only thing I can afford for my kid, I'll get him/her a cheap Android phone
<lunavorax_mini>
Yes wolfspraul and I agree with you.
<wolfspraul>
not an OLPC, not a NanoNote, and not a (only announced even) Raspberry Pi
<lunavorax_mini>
I have been wondering once about a Nanonote based OLPC ;P
<lunavorax_mini>
SugarUI is heavily python based iirc ?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: or make something really cheap, like that $25 device, but design it with composite video out. something you can connect to a TV, including analog TV. you can find TVs even in the most impoverished places.
<wolfspraul>
you want to run OLPC software o NanoNote?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: and also USB keyboards ;-)
<lunavorax_mini>
wpwrak, totally agree
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: it's not mobile.
<lekernel>
wpwrak: the problem is, OMAP and many other similar critters don't have composite out :-)
<wolfspraul>
poor people have to walk a lot, travel a lot, they are kicked around a lot
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: doesn't have to be mobile. makes it cheaper.
<lunavorax_mini>
Nope wolfspraul I was thinking about using both concept of the OLPC and hardware from the nanonote.
<wolfspraul>
I've seen kids in Vietnam with amazing daily schedules, and the only chance they have for learning is on some crazy walk or bus ride somewhere between paid jobs and work at home.
<wolfspraul>
so once you dive into the practical real life, you realize how important it is that the battery lasts long, and the device is light (100-200g at most), and rugged/robust
<lekernel>
wpwrak: but sure, for charity, composite out wouldn't look totally stupid like the touted 1080p HDMI
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: okay, ADS kids may depend on mobility :)
<wolfspraul>
connecting to a TV sounds wrong to me
<lunavorax_mini>
lekernel, :) I feel less alone
<wolfspraul>
yes but it's not good enough. A cheap Android phone still beats it hands down.
<wolfspraul>
imho
<lekernel>
oh, certainly
<lunavorax_mini>
If it's for learning, composite should be ok, as well as vga.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: yeah, HDMI is a bit over the top. nice to have if it comes without much extra cost, but it shouldn't be the entry bar as well.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: anyway, regarding the events, have i convinced you to announce them to the list ? :)
<lunavorax_mini>
HDMI should seriously be left alone, even more when it come to non-capable hardware.
<wpwrak>
(if bens were that hard to sell, we'd still wait for our first customer ...)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no because I totally don't know what it is.
<wolfspraul>
I cannot write a credible text about something I don't understand.
<DocScrutinizer>
who will have a VGA monitor is his hut in Sahel?
<wolfspraul>
and collecting tiny bits of facts one by one is hugely time consuming.
<wolfspraul>
that's why editors of publications just copy/paste
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: is there anything in  "Jon Phillips will have a MM1 at LGM and plans to demo it between talks" you'd disagree with ?
<wolfspraul>
not because they are cheap, but because there is no other choice
<lunavorax_mini>
(I hate netbooks review when people start asking if it can play 1080p while the screen is 1024x600 :) )
<wolfspraul>
that's way too thin
<wolfspraul>
that's no news item, that's more like a cry for help
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: maybe not a monitor, but a TV for sure. also, old monitors may very well be cheap enough that people do/can own them
<wolfspraul>
no I need whoever is somewhere first hand to write up a credible, emotional, well written text about what is going on
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's a summary. one line per event, like sebastien's two events
<DocScrutinizer>
not really, as there's no market for those critters in a poor country
<wolfspraul>
FIRST HAND, that's the key
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for the details, you have the link to the event site
<wolfspraul>
I can put some structure around it and shop/push it around to sites
<wolfspraul>
I'm focusing on that lgm thing right now
<lekernel>
wpwrak: are you talking about the mailing list? or LGM PR?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: no no, not a press release. i mean a post to the qi-hw list.
<DocScrutinizer>
CVBS or even RF is the key feature. See ZX81 ;-D
<wpwrak>
lekernel: just the list. cancel this month's community news but make sure the perishable items are salvaged.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: RF is expensive ;-))
<lunavorax_mini>
Composite is less headbanging than RF
<DocScrutinizer>
not really
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: consider the scrap value of all the metal of that modulator can :)
<DocScrutinizer>
if you build that RF-modulator directly on board, it's about 1$ BOM
<wpwrak>
must be several whole cents
<wpwrak>
see
<wpwrak>
EXPENSIVE
<DocScrutinizer>
k
<wolfspraul>
man, we also had kristian paul using it at the labsurlab
<wolfspraul>
and guyzmo at the lua workshop in Paris
<lunavorax_mini>
haha
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes yes, i'm quite aware that events are badly under-reported
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but instead of making a cult around it, i propose to fix that problem ;-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: with milkymist, you are so much focused on offering it to "libre" comminuty. Why not start PR'ing and offering it directly to interested communities of Dj's/Vj's, whatever?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and once you start properly announcing events, more people may give you lines you can actually use without too much guesswork
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: like lekernel already does
<lekernel>
kyak: I'm doing that in parallel... but even within the libre/engineer/hackers/hardware communities it's already badly under reported
<lekernel>
I'm writing a 6-page article for Elektor atm...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: also, events aren't necessarily about a specific talk or such. often, the real value is in a hallway conversation. or meeting like-minded people from the area.
<lekernel>
and those two events are much more about the VJ stuff than hacking
<wpwrak>
lekernel: if they allow people to have a look at mm1 in real life and maybe shake hands with its creator, they may be more than satisfied with what they get :)
<wolfspraul>
for those community news, no worries, I will go through this, clean it all up, and properly push them out
<wolfspraul>
obviously it won't be on 05/01
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: not unless i get that ubb-timemachine to work ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so anything added to that page will be properly handled, if a little delayed this month (or merged into 06/01)
<wolfspraul>
but the community news cannot become 'good stories', my only goal so far is to keep a record of what's going on, and to highlight the different people
<wpwrak>
the events have an expiration date. they can't wait much longer. particularly not lgm, but also lekernel's two events should be announced immediately
<wpwrak>
yes yes, agreed
<wpwrak>
the community news play a different role than the press releases
<wolfspraul>
the community news can only be like a list, one line per item. it is too hard to bring out the emotional part, or small details, from the distance
<wolfspraul>
those things have to be written first hand, just like a good blog post
<wolfspraul>
the community news can then link to the blog post, and write a 1-line summary of what happened
<wpwrak>
one role of the community news is to summarize and condense what happened in a period of time. plus, since you're already got people's attention, announce future things they're likely to be interested in.
<wpwrak>
that's where the event calendar comes in
<wolfspraul>
the blog post itself can definitely be shopped around as 'news' to whatever site
<wolfspraul>
if the text is written well, they may copy/paste and done
<lunavorax_mini>
I think I have an image to illustratre the idea I had of a "Ben Nanoboard"
<lunavorax_mini>
The Trim-Slice computer is exactly what I was thinking about.
<lunavorax_mini>
(except for the wireless stuffs and the HDMI out)
<wpwrak>
lunavorax_mini: by the way, did you see my explanation why "fewer features" doesn't necessarily mean "less cost" ?
<lunavorax_mini>
err no sorry
<lunavorax_mini>
Was it earlier in that conversation ?
<wpwrak>
lunavorax_mini: a few days ago :)
<lunavorax_mini>
Damn I feel stupid :( I can't remember it
<wpwrak>
the example was: if you wanted to get a ben without the keyboard, that would be less than a regular ben. so you may expect it to be cheaper as well.
<wpwrak>
but in reality, it would be more expensive to provide it, because someone would have to take an existing ben, open the box, open the ben, remove the keyboard, then close it all up again.
<lunavorax_mini>
Hum yeah but I was thinking about a brand new product, not a modified one wpwrak
<wpwrak>
worse, if you wanted a ben with a smaller RAM chip, it would be even more expensive, because someone would have to change the board, buy the new chips, make a new pcb, and get the board smt'ed.
<wpwrak>
pcb and smt have a fixed setup cost in the order of maybe USD 3000 or more.
<wpwrak>
so that "reduced ben" where you would try to save maybe USD 1 would in truth have a cost of maybe USD 10'000 in the end.
<wpwrak>
they key here is volume. all costs are composed of one-time costs and per-unit costs. with electronics, per-unit costs are very small but one-time costs are huge.
<wpwrak>
so if you can't make a lot of units, they will be expensive, no matter how limited their functionality.
<wpwrak>
the ben is only so cheap because the pricing is based on a 3000 units volume. and a large portion of the development and setup cost has been borne by the original dictionary and is already written off.
<lunavorax_mini>
Hum ok
<lunavorax_mini>
I don't know if there was a misunderstanding or if I didn't understood something well.
<wpwrak>
making a new ben from scratch with a 3000 units quantity would mean a significantly higher price.
<lunavorax_mini>
But if I understood correctly, you game me the exemple of a product already been made.
<lunavorax_mini>
Hum ok
<wpwrak>
yes. a product already made has all the one-time costs covered. you may still pay them off, but you've at least already solved the financing.
<DocScrutinizer>
HAHAHA skype == M$ now
<wpwrak>
just a basic board would be less expensive to engineer and produce than a complete ben. but it would still cost significant money. (and people's time)
<lunavorax_mini>
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<lunavorax_mini>
Not Skype
<lunavorax_mini>
Dammit
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: kewl. i used it about twice in my life so far. i think that's a good number that doesn't really need to change ;-)
<lunavorax_mini>
Ok XMPP can do what Skype does, but Skype is so "hype" and "cool" you know :(
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: same here
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: actually I abandoned skype betatester crew when those morons managed to delay linux version with ALSA for a year and then failed on all you can probably fail on when inplementing ALSA
<lunavorax_mini>
I'm lost with the audio server stuff in Linux DocScrutinizer, iirc a lot of people hate pulseaudio
<DocScrutinizer>
definitely
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm one of them :-D
<lunavorax_mini>
That's why I was suprised to see "Gnome3 is pulseaudio only now"
<DocScrutinizer>
I came to hate everything Lennart Poettering aver touched ;-D
<lunavorax_mini>
Is it me or does Lennart Poettering doesn't like PulseAudio either...??
<lunavorax_mini>
Anyway.
<DocScrutinizer>
Lennart *invented* PukeAudio
<lunavorax_mini>
Hahaha PukeAudio
<DocScrutinizer>
and pushed it down the throat of evry distro he could find
<zear>
hey guys
<DocScrutinizer>
by telling lies about ALSA
<zear>
this guy post a comment into my old nn yt vid, but i don't know how to reply
<DocScrutinizer>
actually by now I seem able to tell a particular system is from / with Lennart P. by the particular way it sucks
<zear>
the comment about "EMF emission"
<lekernel>
pukeaudio is making 'clicks' and other forms of unwanted digital noises all the time when listening to music on my system
<lekernel>
quite annoying
<DocScrutinizer>
in fact L.P. calims to know everything (better) but evidently has no clue about some of the stuff he likes to mess up
<DocScrutinizer>
and all of his crap is makimum intrusive and targeted to obsolete proven concepts
<DocScrutinizer>
maximum*
<DocScrutinizer>
and quite usually is messing up your carefully tailored systems
<zear>
so, can anybody help that guy from comment of my yt video?
<lekernel>
weird comment indeed... ask what for?
<lekernel>
he could also just add some shielding himself :)
<zear>
Can EMF be actually dangerous for health in a device powered from a battery? Common sense tells me it can't be possible :)
<wpwrak>
zear: it should be possible to construct a battery-powered device that damages your health :)
<wpwrak>
zear: i mean, we have lasers of a few dozen mW that can hurt your eyes, so maybe a little MASER could do the trick for EMF ;)
<zear>
wpwrak, i mean, one that passes CE/FCC tests ;)
<wpwrak>
zear: oh, i'm sure it can pass all sorts of tests as well. as long as you declare its function properly, i.e., to harm people ;-)
<zear>
well, yes ;)
<zear>
i guess the only potential risk that guy from the comment could get from a netbook is when he falls asleep with in on his lap and the netbook overheats ;)
<zear>
this shouldn't be a case with non-x86 devices though
<zear>
*with it
<mth>
my sister once rented a room from a guy who didn't want wifi because of the radiation... but he did use a cell phone
<DocScrutinizer>
meh
<lunavorax_mini>
non-x86 doesn't overheat ? è_è
<lunavorax_mini>
mth, I would have done the contrary, no phone but wifi
<DocScrutinizer>
they psychosomatic effects can be devastating
<lunavorax_mini>
They do have some effects but what can you do to avoid theses waves ? They are everywhere now.
<DocScrutinizer>
luckily there are such things like shielding mats aginst geo-radiation for your bed, and similar things that could easy those folks' lifes
<DocScrutinizer>
in fact there's been no documented case under lab conditions where a test subject could tell when a TX been active and when not
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: a metal shield, applied between head and the rest of the body may also bring relief from this and other ailments. i think the french call it guillotine ;-)
<lunavorax_mini>
Dammit I forgot how bloated was Ubuntu, I have tons of packets to remove.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: did the flickering TX LED give it away ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah indeed, actually the flickering LED alone in a completely empty plastic box can cause headache for those "sensitive to EM rays"
<DocScrutinizer>
toldya, the psychosomatic effects are devastating
<mth>
lunavorax_mini: yes, but it seems people most afraid of radiation also know least about it
<DocScrutinizer>
that's related
<lunavorax_mini>
Of course mth I understand.
<zear>
lunavorax_mini, none of my arm or mips handhelds have ever overheated just from using them
<lunavorax_mini>
iirc, my gp2x wiz and the ben are getting real warm when using gmu for too long.
<lunavorax_mini>
I'll test it again one day.
<zear>
lunavorax_mini, really? I haven't had wiz in hands for more than 5min, but dingoo or gp2x would never get hot from either playing or listening to music
<zear>
they get hot only if you leave them on the sun (dingoo especially) ;D
<wejp>
yeah, my ben does not get warm at all, even when listening to music with gmu for hours
<lunavorax_mini>
haha
<wejp>
same with gp2x and dingoo
<lunavorax_mini>
The dingoo has a remarquable battery life for a linux-powered device
<wejp>
yeah the dingoo's battery life is pretty good
<wejp>
only the pandora has a longer battery runtime
<zear>
lunavorax_mini, nope, mine is only a year old and the battery lasts for 30-60min maybe
<wejp>
:O
<zear>
but that's pretty much what cheap chinese components do ;)
<wejp>
30 minutes?
<zear>
wejp, yea :(
<wejp>
:(
<wejp>
mine is over a year old but still lasts pretty long
<zear>
i've charged it to maximum, then copied some oggs on it and used it with gmu for about 30-40min
<wejp>
:/
<zear>
then the next day i wanted to listen to music when on my way to uni, but surprise - the battery is fully deplated
<lunavorax_mini>
zear really ? I used the dingoo for 3days with a single charge.
<lunavorax_mini>
Not 24h/24 but still.
<zear>
lunavorax_mini, well, mine used to last for days when it was new
<lunavorax_mini>
hum
<zear>
it degraded quite rapidly though
<wejp>
did you have the battery discharged for a longer period, zear?
<zear>
wejp, hmm.. actually, yes
<zear>
like 2-3 weeks
<wejp>
that can kill li-batteries :(
<zear>
oh, great
<wejp>
i know, it is quite a challenge to keep all the batteries charged at all times :/
<zear>
but dingoo draws a little current all the time to keep the RTC alive, so unless you charge it once in a while, it is destined to die
<wejp>
yeah :|
<wejp>
on other devices i usually remove the battery
<zear>
i didn't know that, gonna remove the battery from my nn
<wejp>
yeah :)
<lunavorax_mini>
Oh ! The nn drains battery even turned off ?
<wejp>
not very much, but to be safe, better remove the battery when not using it for a longer period
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: speaking of conferences, i'm not sure if anyone already mentioned that rejon and I should each have a talk at FISL this year.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (porto alegre, brazil, and of june/beginning of july)
<wpwrak>
i.e., in mid-winter ;-)
<zear>
lunavorax_mini, it does so to keep the RTC up to date
<zear>
but with the nn you're lucky you can remove the battery
<lunavorax_mini>
yeah
<lunavorax_mini>
I realise everyday that I always have my nn with me. That's strange.
<lunavorax_mini>
Only down side is that I lost two feets :/
<lunavorax_mini>
I mean on the nn
<zear>
nn is too precious to me
<zear>
to carry it around
<wpwrak>
no schedule details yet, not have we worked out exactly what we'll talk about. i think rejon's will be about the free hw culture more at a higher level and he'll have mm1. i'd focus more on the nanonote and workflow/tools side.
<zear>
i took it once or twice and i dind't even notice when i lost the rubber feet
<zear>
i carry dingoo everywhere with me, since that's the cheapest of my handhelds ;)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: rejon mentioned it to me and it's great. we also need to do at least a decent job on publicity on that one...
<wpwrak>
aye. and before the event :)
<wpwrak>
hmm. tuxbrain is in silent mode once more. i kinda wonder what his testing plan for SMT is ...
<DocScrutinizer>
topic batteries, RTC: I hope Qi moved away from those nasty LiIon backup batteries used in e.g FR and N900
<DocScrutinizer>
use a supercap, or a dedicated capacitive bupbat
<wpwrak>
or if it has to be a battery, just make it non-rechargeable
<wpwrak>
(and removable)
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah, like CR1405 or what it's called
<wpwrak>
or if there's a bit of space, 2032
<DocScrutinizer>
will last longer than those messy LiIon coin-cels
<wpwrak>
yeah. a battery that's inserted after SMT will not die during SMT, that's already a big plus ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
just had to mention it
<wpwrak>
you're warning the ghosts of 9/11 about the danger of fire ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
as it's been a bit of experience you only gather with time and running into the trap
<DocScrutinizer>
almost all FR and most of N900 have broken bupbat
<wpwrak>
yes, you learn from your mistakes. we certainly learned a lot at openmoko, especially in the area of the BUB ;-)
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: with 'broken' you mean they don't charge anymore?
<wolfspraul>
in which way do they break?
<DocScrutinizer>
the idiocy with thos LiIon bupbat is they are susceptible to deep discharge (will definitely break) but no way to disconnect them
<DocScrutinizer>
yes, don't hold charge, leak...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (will break) if the soldering itself doesn't kill them ... they're also a great tool for lowering your yield. well, if you care to QC them :)
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
so, by all means avoid LiIon technology for soldered bats
<wpwrak>
do not solder batteries :)
<DocScrutinizer>
supercaps are great and should have a waaay better duability
<DocScrutinizer>
see above linked tayo yuden part
<wpwrak>
dunno about supercap durability. but their capacity is on par with the li-junk, so they can't be any worse
<DocScrutinizer>
those are actually supercaps build to serve as drop in replacement for the LiIon
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: at least supercaps won't mind deep discharge
<DocScrutinizer>
and have a ~10^5 higer cycle count
<wpwrak>
all sounds promising. how about the soldering profile ?
<DocScrutinizer>
or maybe 10°3
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: not worse than LiIonMg coin
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: not worse than LiIonFe(?) coin
<DocScrutinizer>
NB I'm no sourcing expert, so do the required tests and chatting with manufacturer by your own
<DocScrutinizer>
just saying "this looks like a way better component"
<wpwrak>
yeah. for no, nobody is planning to add any bats or supercaps anywhere :)
<wpwrak>
s/no/now/
<DocScrutinizer>
k, so it's for the record here, and for future planning
<wpwrak>
duly noted :)
<DocScrutinizer>
somebody told wolfspraul about charge balancing of LiIon in series?
<wolfspraul>
no - go on. what do I need to know?
<DocScrutinizer>
you posted a few links to photos showing 3 LiIon cells in series
<wolfspraul>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
that's pretty dangerous practice
<wolfspraul>
I've since bought the larger version of this beast, and plan to take it apart as well, so more pics coming. probably the same idea inside.
<DocScrutinizer>
as there is always a weaker cell, that gets overcharged/reverse-charged on charging/discharging
<wolfspraul>
even the voltages make no sense to me, because people plug in 12V to charge, and want to draw 12V as well
<DocScrutinizer>
that's basically a strongly discouraged over-simplistic design
<wolfspraul>
officially they say 12.6v on the label for charging (3*4.2), but practically people just plug a 12.0v supply in for charging
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: why did you get it in the first place ? for halloween ? :)
<wolfspraul>
oh I can imagine that
<wolfspraul>
this is Chinese engineering excellency at its best
<wolfspraul>
brutally simple, brutally wrong, but still works somehow, sometimes, a bit
<wpwrak>
a trophy then ?
<wolfspraul>
partially to open and take pics
<wolfspraul>
because what we discuss now we can only discuss because I opened one
<DocScrutinizer>
good point
<wolfspraul>
and then I will keep one to use, or show people
<wolfspraul>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
my understanding was already that with a 12.0v supply, they would not get fully charged
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: just make sure you don't end up on any no-fly lists ;-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe that protects against Joerg's 'weaker cell' argument a little :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
probably not, but yet one might/*will* get overcharged
<wolfspraul>
and then, on the discharge side, my understanding is that they will slowly loose voltage, if they are at 3.7 you only get 11.1V, not 12.0V
<wolfspraul>
so whatever is on the other side better runs on 11.1, not 12
<wolfspraul>
is that correct?
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and in addition, Joerg is telling me now that there is a more systematic problem with the series design, because there will also be a weaker and a stronger cell. and the weaker one will be treated badly.
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that brings the number of things that are wrong with this already to a whole handful, I guess :-)
<wolfspraul>
nice...
<wolfspraul>
it does work though, really
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
you can charge with 12.0, and I am able to operate a mini ccd camera on it
<wolfspraul>
I was told those cameras will run on anything between 8 and 12v, roughly
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it only has to work until you've entered your "all it well" on ebay ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so they cna drive the cells down...
<wolfspraul>
is there a practical danger that it may explode?
<wolfspraul>
that'd be the only thing I'm worried about
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah, so two cells @4.2V and one on -0.4V reverse charge - extreme example
<wolfspraul>
Xiangfu had a power supply explode on him a week ago or so
<wolfspraul>
a real explosion
<DocScrutinizer>
search channel log for "monster"
<wolfspraul>
how can two cells be at 4.2 and one at -0.4?
<DocScrutinizer>
I provided a rather scary URL
<wolfspraul>
is that in charging or discharging mode?
<DocScrutinizer>
discharging
<wolfspraul>
and the 3rd cell is completely broken?
<DocScrutinizer>
if the weaker cell already much weaker than the other both
<DocScrutinizer>
after that it is
<wolfspraul>
how is this done in a proper notebook battery? they also have a number of li-ion cells in those
<DocScrutinizer>
the problem is this is a self-inducing vicious circle, as the weak cell always gets treated worse and thus gets weaker and weaker
<wolfspraul>
just that they have a small battery controller with some ics and other parts
<wolfspraul>
yes I understood that
<DocScrutinizer>
they use balancing, basically treating each cell on its own
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why some battery packs have 7,8, 10 contacts
<DocScrutinizer>
to keep all cells on same voltage
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (xiangfu) so he has a faster PC now ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
so the bypass FET shorts a cell with higher voltage than the weakest one
<DocScrutinizer>
s/weakest/lowest/
<wolfspraul>
I see
<DocScrutinizer>
suboptimal but works
<wolfspraul>
seems the monster explosion was also caused by the metal tube acting as a pressure build-up
<wolfspraul>
like a real bomb
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<wolfspraul>
at least those 3 cells are only packed in a thin cardboard plus blue tape
<wolfspraul>
so it can't be that bad :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
the cells are built semi-safe with a vent
<DocScrutinizer>
doesn't help when you put them inside a pipe-bomb
<wolfspraul>
yes but I mean the wrap around the 3 cells is just thin paper
<wolfspraul>
I'm just thinking worst case here.
<DocScrutinizer>
worst case is your pack is catching fire
<wpwrak>
that is of course until you decide to put them in a nice solid travel box ...
<wolfspraul>
yes, already thinking about that
<wolfspraul>
I have this nice metal case, fairly airtight I think
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't want to test whether it can hold or vent the pressure from this kind of event inside...
<wpwrak>
just let us know in advance what flights you take, and we'll all be safe ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
consider LiIon cells worth teir weight in loose blackpowder
<wolfspraul>
ok I hold it in my hand when flying
<wolfspraul>
that way the pressure/fire can directly go into the air
<DocScrutinizer>
not going to happen ;-P
<wolfspraul>
just kidding
<DocScrutinizer>
you'll either hold it OR fly
<wolfspraul>
isn't it fun to cut open this kind of little stuff you can buy on the street here :-)
<wpwrak>
at some companies, they have a policy that important employees shouldn't travel on the same flight. with wolfgang, the same policy would make sense, although for a very different reason ;-)
<wolfspraul>
another model but surely the same idea inside
<wolfspraul>
8 reviews (4.5/5), 100 diggs
<wolfspraul>
seems to be selling :-)
<wpwrak>
life expectancy is overrated anyway ;-)
<roh>
my advice about batteries: dont sell em if possible. let others do THAT dirtywork. adapt some (any) standard as it comes along. make it work. dont make batteries in own casings or mechanics. only invites pain.
<wolfspraul>
sure I totally agree. AA or AAA standard sizes still look like very good solutions to me.
<roh>
mmmh.. also something like using nokia batteries is fine. (rechargeables)
<wolfspraul>
the industry can focus on optimizing them, you can buy them on every street corner of the world, they can be rechargeable
<wolfspraul>
I think even those sizes will disappear fast over the next few years
<wolfspraul>
the trend to fully integrated batteries is very strong for phones, I think unstoppable
<roh>
there are also some with more than one cell .. maybe look at the camera market
<roh>
AA and AAA is mostly bad becuase there are no good rechargeable ones and they eat loads of space (and weight)
<wolfspraul>
why are there no good rechargeable ones?
<roh>
wolfspraul: nopp. only apple is THAT stupid. (and their customers).. will come back. anf if only by force via EU-law or so.
<wolfspraul>
ok, I will keep an eye on cameras :-) you mean digital still cameras? which brand?
<roh>
think 'e-waste'
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
they changed the laws in the german congress (bundestag) to allow ipads, now they can play games and stuff and it's not so boring
<wolfspraul>
because yes, batter integration causes many problems
<wolfspraul>
another 20 :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: imho  its a sign of bad ME-vision to make the battery not userreplaceable. shows that you were unable to solve that problem and not willing to cooperate with other companies by not using a(ny) snan[D[D[D[Ddart
<roh>
argh. and i have multiple seconds lag on this ssh session... bbl
<kyak>
xiangfu: did you just catch up with openwrt trunk?
<qi-bot>
[commit] jow: [package] base-files: retrigger usb coldplug after module loading, solves usb_modeswitch on boot and possibly others (#9352) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6f14855
<wpwrak>
although i think it's a good idea to get more than one. first of all, something may go wrong. second, there may be more cool things to build in the future.
<vladkorotnev>
definitely
<wpwrak>
the EUR 35 are for all ten ;-)
<wpwrak>
well, it would be EUR 30 for you. then your customs would add vat and such for you.
<vladkorotnev>
EUR 35 = 1400 RUR, plus S&H. Not so cheap, but not so expensive, I think :P
<wpwrak>
yeah, the board could be super-cheap, but a lot of people would have to buy one
<vladkorotnev>
I'm from Russia, so postage is a problem
<wpwrak>
you could probably bring the price down to half an Euro each at big volumes
<wpwrak>
(big = thousands)
<vladkorotnev>
I still worry for my NN, and if I order these UBBs... they may get lost :(
<vladkorotnev>
lol, I'm not making so much electronic stuff to buy  > 1000 pcs.
<vladkorotnev>
;)
<wpwrak>
hackaday gave us a nice peak. already 172 visitors from there. let's see how the day continues :)
<vladkorotnev>
I think 10 would be enough ;)
<vladkorotnev>
BTW, can I reflash my NN using a Mac?
<wpwrak>
(10) i would calculate about 5 for each project you develop. fewer if you just build an existing project.
<vladkorotnev>
i think I'd first try out these awesome existing projects and then move on to developing myself
<wpwrak>
excellent plan ;-)
<vladkorotnev>
:)
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: story topics: how to break copy-protection in video streams
<wpwrak>
with ubb-vga ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
err, mm
<DocScrutinizer>
creating HD-video from old super8 and vcr, using mm and kalman filters
<DocScrutinizer>
(with example: apollo11 pistures from moon and how they'd look today)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/usb/dfu.c (dfu): lowered bwPollTimeout from 1 s to 100 ms and explained why http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fc1a334
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/boot.c (main): don't time out until there is an application http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ddd0022
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/Makefile (dfu): our functional descriptor is fine, no need for -t http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fd91546
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw: use the unique serial number of the ATmega8/16/32U2 for iSerialNumber http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/85f60de
<dvdk>
wpwrak: do you know since which kernel version do we have the /proc/pid/pagemap files?
<dvdk>
because there are none on my nanonote (kernel 2.6.32)
<dvdk>
maybe disabled in kernel config?
<wpwrak>
checking ...
<wpwrak>
2.6.32 has it
<wpwrak>
>= 2.6.25
<wpwrak>
according to Documentation/vm/pagemap.txt :)
<dvdk>
wpwrak:Â Â hmm, it's missing on my nanonote.
<dvdk>
ls /proc/self/
<dvdk>
auxv            fd              mounts          root
<dvdk>
cmdline          fdinfo          mountstats      stat
<dvdk>
coredump_filter  limits          net              statm
<wpwrak>
time to build your own kernel ?
<dvdk>
:/
<dvdk>
wpwrak: just waiting for the next firmware :)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: wasn't even able to find out which config option enables that feature
<wpwrak>
CONFIG_PROC_PAGE_MONITOR
<dvdk>
"monitor", ok wouldn't have searched for that.
<dvdk>
ok, it's set for my ubuntu kernel, which explains why it's present there
<dvdk>
hmm, another git problem. Â
<dvdk>
after git pull, i still have kernel 2.6.32 in openwrt-xburs.git
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'jz-2.6.38' of projects.qi-hardware.com:qi-kernel into ben-wpan http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/f87f20d
<wpwrak>
see, it's easy ;-)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: no such branch listed with the git browser!
<wpwrak>
git branch -a
<wpwrak>
why trust anything less than the command-line utility ? :)
<dvdk>
remotes/origin/HEAD -> origin/master
<dvdk>
  remotes/origin/history
<dvdk>
  remotes/origin/master
<dvdk>
no jz..38
<dvdk>
time for rm -rf?
<wpwrak>
oh wait. i'm using qi-kernel.git
<dvdk>
:)
<wpwrak>
no idea what you guys have in openwrt-xburst
<dvdk>
what command is used to switch branches 'git branch trunk' doesn't work?