<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: btw, regarding your idea of a "reduced" ben: one problem is that removing features doesn't necessarily make a device cheaper. e.g., if you wanted to buy a ben without the keyboard, it would actually be more expensive to provide that than a regular one.
<kristianpaul>
pr-grade... well if you ignore the pink-white-like in letters and lines
<kristianpaul>
(ubb-vga-pub-v2.jpg) nice pic !
<kristianpaul>
bit  scaring, but nice :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yeah, maybe i should try to reduce the red a bit ...
<wpwrak>
mmh. just keeps on looking shitty. i think i'll wait for daylight and try again.
<wpwrak>
or fix the color balance on the screen :) now, recharging the camera battery ...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (genetics of audiovisual) sounds a bit like the things you'd find at sharism.org :)
<wolfspraul>
in which way? you mean it sounds like 'sharism'?
<wolfspraul>
ah, sharism.org - wait, checking...
<wolfspraul>
there are just too many ways to go about m1, it's a problem
<wolfspraul>
or about milkymist for that matter
<wpwrak>
"it's like einstein's theory for peanut butter" :)
<wolfspraul>
ARM competitor?
<wolfspraul>
GPL licensed whatever
<wolfspraul>
FOSS guys, come here
<wolfspraul>
video manipulation? for what purpose? personal/fun, professional/office, conference, vj, art?
<kristianpaul>
i tought was hardware guys ;)
<wolfspraul>
copyleft hardware?
<wpwrak>
well, as someone who doesn't presently care about the vj side (although some hands-on experience may convince me that it's a nice gadget), i see mainly the aspect of making a compact fpga-based "pc".
<wolfspraul>
I don't believe in being able to suddenly have a strong rally of free software folks jumping into this project
<wolfspraul>
yes, the dreaded fpga computer
<wpwrak>
plus, it's the native habitat of llhdl, which i find a lot more interesting
<kristianpaul>
he
<wolfspraul>
like I said, this is what sucks up my story telling capacity
<wolfspraul>
for good or for bad
<wolfspraul>
and LGM is coming up in a few days...
<wolfspraul>
we sold NanoNotes by talking about: a) 99 USD b) Linux c) copyleft hardware
<wolfspraul>
but we definitely did not establish an exponentially growing anything, more like a static small community, with most members on an unsustainable path
<wolfspraul>
where's the breakout?
<wolfspraul>
and for m1, how to approach it now/
<wolfspraul>
?
<wolfspraul>
copyleft hw?
<wpwrak>
breakout ?
<wolfspraul>
nah, I have doubts
<wolfspraul>
fpga computer?
<wolfspraul>
I talked to endless people about this, there is no fire/spark there
<kristianpaul>
about fpga computer?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
those kinds of reasonings are too dry, too academic
<wpwrak>
the coolness of the fpga computer is not in the computer but in the fpga. the computer is just what enables you to make use of the fpga
<wolfspraul>
if Milkymist is marketed as a total fgpa-centric project, I'm sure it will fail
<wpwrak>
the real use of the fpga would be for example that you can synthesize your own peripherals
<wolfspraul>
but if we go the 'this will be asic soon' path, that's also not good for a whole variety of reasons
<wolfspraul>
tough tough :-)
<kristianpaul>
new way computing, compiling/sinthetising the computer
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, but whom are we realistically targeting?
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
too early
<wolfspraul>
fpga makers come out with subsidized devel boards to push their latest features
<wpwrak>
yes, fpga-only would be tough. also because most people don't need all that exotic multimedia stuff.
<wolfspraul>
sure there is zero continuity, and no products will ever emerge, but it sucks up 90% of attention for 'cool new fpga features'
<wolfspraul>
just as they are meant to :-)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
we have been largely unable to create a big excitement about free software folks, even kernel hackers, for anything below kernel
<wolfspraul>
so I highly doubt this angle works
<kristianpaul>
reconfigurable hardware video sinthesis box
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
make me interested
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: because there's very little for them to do
<wolfspraul>
that sounds like a professor titling one of his classes
<wolfspraul>
of course he knows that his students have to attend, because otherwise they don't get enough points to pass
<kristianpaul>
:/
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: strategically, i see mm1 more as a proof of concept than as a real product. alas, that doesn't fit with the planned business model.
<wolfspraul>
maybe I don't see the forest from all the trees...
<kristianpaul>
(angle) it will not work until we have better tools under kernel layer, like when llhdl gets mature..
<wolfspraul>
oh no, it's a great product
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i mean as a moneymaking product
<wolfspraul>
you should see where it is now, and the little details we are polishing in terms of software, electrical stability, accessories, etc.
<wolfspraul>
it could sell in thousands and tens of thousands
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (k and tens of k) sounds as if you've already found your market ? :)
<wolfspraul>
the quality of the product is my least concern
<wolfspraul>
I'm on the story-telling side now
<wpwrak>
i'm not talking about quality. i mean in the sense of meeting a market demand
<wolfspraul>
genetics of audiovisual
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
product is satisfying, I think demand can be created
<wolfspraul>
what is the cheapest way to create demand?
<kristianpaul>
who demand hardware freedom..
<wolfspraul>
yes, that's one angle
<wolfspraul>
but I don't believe there is a strong demand there :-)
<wpwrak>
instill fear in people that can only be extinguished by owning the product :)
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<kristianpaul>
neither from eff..
<wolfspraul>
it's not needed either. my personal business idol here is mtk.
<wolfspraul>
nobody knows who they are, so what
<wolfspraul>
Nokia tried super hard to ignore them, pressing their eyes together harder and harder over the years.
<wolfspraul>
media/press has totally missed it, probably because mtk gives a damn about a marketing/pr department
<wolfspraul>
they focus on making money
<wolfspraul>
so the only place you see them is in the top silicon manufacturers charts
<wpwrak>
if you don't expect "fpga" and "freedom" to sell, don't advertize them, or advertize them only in the small pring
<wolfspraul>
and you see how many billions of USD they make
<wpwrak>
prinT
<wolfspraul>
if copyleft hardware functions, it will lead to superior products
<wpwrak>
like many companies don't advertize that their CE devices have linux inside
<wolfspraul>
those products cannot be marketed as 'copyleft hardware' per se, they just happen to be
<kristianpaul>
but mtk have lots of turnkey products, is hard to compare i think
<wolfspraul>
my point is that the success of copyleft hardware does not necessarily depend on being the cool kid in town
<wolfspraul>
in my experience this 'cool kid in town' is all fabricated anyway
<wolfspraul>
it is not harder to be the cool kid in town that it is to make a ben-wpan board. it's just work.
<wolfspraul>
so back to m1, that's why I'm currently thinking about this 'genetics of audiovisual'
<wolfspraul>
I like it
<wolfspraul>
totally different angle
<roh>
wolfspraul: nice one.
<wpwrak>
you can also vary the marketing message depending on audience. for a hypothetical "vj mag" you'd talk about cool effects, how it rubs this or that famous competitor in the dirt, and how rugged it is for hard stage use.
<wolfspraul>
also 'lowest level language of visual creation'
<kristianpaul>
yeah
<roh>
you made 'ignore marketing, make good products' sound as complicated as if sean said it ;)
<kristianpaul>
he, i liked that one
<roh>
*scnr*
<wolfspraul>
it's a bit wordy, but 'language' covers the programmability of it
<wpwrak>
for the hypothetical "fpga forum" you'd talk about the amazingly small number of LUTs and how openrisc, sparc, etc. suck
<wolfspraul>
roh: well it's not that easy. we have to sell, make money. this is hardware.
<wpwrak>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
good product, good sales force, godo marketing - needs to come together
<roh>
wolfspraul: if the hw and sw is great it will.
<wolfspraul>
if you have a bad product, marketing is too expensive
<wolfspraul>
I don't believe in that. there is a lot of competition.
<wolfspraul>
it's a factor, x*z
<wolfspraul>
x = product quality
<wolfspraul>
z = strength of sales force, including marketing message, pr
<roh>
exactly. have you ever seen hilti or makita advertisement banners anywhere? they dont need to. if you worked with one, you want one. no need for advertisement
<wolfspraul>
if your z = 0, it doesn't matter how great your x is :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes true, of course. I'm not arguing against that.
<roh>
i think they give away calendars.. so make stickers.
<wolfspraul>
still you have to reach someone. stories are competing.
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure. some salespitch needs to be. just stick to 'it does foo and it does it good' and let the rest be stuff 'just working'
<roh>
honest sells again ;)
<wpwrak>
(lowest level language) isn't the effect programming language defined by some commercial product ?
<wolfspraul>
good story is not necessarily about dishonesty
<wpwrak>
so you can't really claim originality there
<wolfspraul>
look at a movie, and movie marketing
<wolfspraul>
quite interesting
<roh>
meh. daylight. need to go home and to bed
<wolfspraul>
nobody needs new movies, there are plenty of old ones, great ones, that you haven't seen yet
<wolfspraul>
but the industry is all about creating demand for the new one, and they even invest 100, 200, even more millions of USD into it - very risky!
<wolfspraul>
they certainly trust their marketing power :-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I haven't looked much at the language yet, you mean Milkymist Patches?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien always says it is mostly milkdrop compatible
<wpwrak>
i assume that's what you refer to with 'lowest level language of visual creation', right ?
<wolfspraul>
that's a bsd license software
<wpwrak>
(bsd) ah, nice
<wolfspraul>
and even if it were proprietary, programming languages are not covered by copyright, afaik
<wolfspraul>
yes but it's just the language similarity on m1, as a starting point
<wolfspraul>
I doubt there is 1 line of milkdrop code in m1
<kristianpaul>
me too
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: that's the beauty imo. the 'lowest level language for visual creation' leaves that a bit open
<wpwrak>
programming languages are tricky. e.g., they tried to keep eiffel restricted. the net effect was that it never caught on. poetic justice ;-)
<kristianpaul>
but is compatible, but i wonder how many people really used/use or had heard of milkydrop...
<wolfspraul>
it can also include the Verilog that you can equally dive into programming-wise
<wolfspraul>
I don't think milkdrop compatibility is an important feature in m1
<wpwrak>
also wirth had this sort of ambitions with oberon, although i think it was more about keeping the language "pure". and see how this helped to spread it :)
<wolfspraul>
in fact if m1 grows, the language will divert from milkdrop, for sure
<wolfspraul>
in m1, milkdrop is just the starting point
<wolfspraul>
or was
<wpwrak>
(it's actually a lot better than modula-2 ... almost usable :)
<kristianpaul>
i hope it was :)
<wolfspraul>
I think there are additions already today, and certainly more coming if the community grows.
<wpwrak>
(compatibility) dunno. if you google for the milkdrop language, you find some activity
<kristianpaul>
thats good
<wolfspraul>
it's probably safe to say that m1 is a fork then
<kristianpaul>
i wonder if lekernel already wrote then about mm1..
<wolfspraul>
I don't think sebastien cares that much about 100% milkdrop compatibility
<wolfspraul>
it's just a starting point
<wpwrak>
("language" leaving some ambiguity) yeah, i was afraid you'd aim for that :) but you still need a story why it makes sense. or be really really good at making one up on the fly if the press asks you what it means.
<wolfspraul>
maybe I need to play more with my m1 first
<wpwrak>
what was the synthesizer name again, "interactive video synthesizer" ?
<wolfspraul>
I was planning to show it to a friend of mine who used to manage rock bands. he organized lots of concerts. maybe there is some spark in that conversation :-)
<wolfspraul>
just video synthesizer
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: would you read an article that is headlined 'genetics of audiovisual'?
<wpwrak>
(show it to a musician) yeah, he'd also be able to associate with things/concepts you don't even know
<wolfspraul>
yes! exactly
<wolfspraul>
good story is good story, I have deep respect for that and the power can be big.
<wolfspraul>
power of good story needs to come together with power of good tech
<wolfspraul>
even if roh thinks that's a complicated way to say nothing :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not worried about the tech in m1
<wolfspraul>
almost there, almost ready for the technically unsuspecting end user. and we will finish the remaining 10% for sure.
<wpwrak>
(genetics of audiovisual) .... waiting for kristianpaul's comment before i send mine ....
<wpwrak>
the tech is making sure it can do what it's expected to do and keeps on doing that for a useful amount of time. i wouldn't be overly worried there either. well, the power supply situation is unfortunate. that's a weakness we already know. but i don't think it will be a major issue in a run as small as rc3.
<wpwrak>
i wonder what "synthesizer" means to the average musician nowadays. e.g., would that include manipulation of live samples ? programmability ? or would they use a different term to describe such a device ?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: let's see about power supply, I always remain optimistic. It will be as good as rc2 or better. What's bad about that?
<wolfspraul>
I thought it's an interesting idea to translate the fpga thing as genetics, or DNA.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's a bit too easy to fry the whole device, that's bad about it :)
<wolfspraul>
it's a translation, of course.
<wolfspraul>
not sure. if you plug in the power supply we ship with each unit, all is fine.
<wpwrak>
yes, big IF :)
<wolfspraul>
well I agree with you, but let's just see whether we can do better on rc3 or not
<wpwrak>
it has a nice inviting barrel connector, doesn't it ? :)
<wolfspraul>
the jury is still out
<wolfspraul>
in the big picture this is also just a small detail
<wolfspraul>
I'm on the story side now
<wpwrak>
alright, story ... so .. to address the vj community, you need to speak their language
<wpwrak>
i assume lekernel does, so that's already a good start
<wolfspraul>
which magazine is this? which journalist?
<wolfspraul>
until I see a journalist that tells me "yes this is great, I will cover this extensively in our magazine" I remain cautious
<wolfspraul>
I've found de-bug.de and xlr8r.com
<wolfspraul>
at de-bug.de I have a good intro (a journalist I know worked there years ago and still knows everybody)
<wpwrak>
the 'genetics of audiovisual' just sound confused to me. genetics link closely with evolution. where's the specifically evolutionary element in what mm1 does ? e.g., does it auto-adapt to its environment ? does it procreate ? does it mutate ?
<wolfspraul>
of course I will try to see what they say
<wolfspraul>
well yes, it does most of these things, no?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
(journalist) there, i have no idea, sorry :)
<wolfspraul>
how about the scene we know best? how to present it to free software people? hardware hackers? open hardware hackers?
<wpwrak>
(does most of these things) well, in a sufficiently vague sense, it does everything ;-)
<wpwrak>
you could probably also call it "dadaism of audiovisual", in a vague enough sense ;-)
<wpwrak>
to hw hackers, i'd sell the compact core
<wpwrak>
it's a fully-featured pc built around an fpga. has lots of interfaces, a good cpu, etc. so if you want to add stuff, you don't have to start from zero.
<wpwrak>
of course, the mm1 hardware isn't ideal for this market
<wolfspraul>
devel boards pushed out for marketing reasons will take out all oxygen from that room
<wpwrak>
a bit too much emphasis on multimedia, probably a bit too little on customer extensions
<wpwrak>
yes, they're a very strong competitor
<wpwrak>
about the only argument against them would be that they're not the reference platform this was developed on. but then, if the strength is flexibility, this argument vanishes quickly.
<wolfspraul>
opencores found 247 people donating money to their 'open asic project' after the coverage on slashdot
<wpwrak>
so it would still be attractive for those who see themselves as pioneers. who don't want to wait half a year until someone ports it to ref board XYZ.
<wolfspraul>
for a total of about 8000 USD (orsoc started with 3000)
<wpwrak>
or you could sell it as a long-term stable platform. but that's also tricky. probably not worth the trouble trying.
<wolfspraul>
that only works if the real pull is the software you are stabilizing on it
<wolfspraul>
Flickernoise
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist SoC
<wolfspraul>
which I believe is the correct path
<wolfspraul>
I think I want to stay away from competing with devel boards, as far as I can :-)
<wpwrak>
(pull) also if you just want to explore. get the platform, play with the vague ideas you have, see if something sticks.
<wolfspraul>
I have doubts about the size of a copyleft hw pull, or the amount of free software or kernel hackers that can become deeply interesting in electronic circuits, IC design, etc.
<wpwrak>
but as i said, it's not a lot of people who work like this
<wolfspraul>
yes those angles exist, and we should continue to be very open to them, but I don't believe there can be a real big uptake there, big growth
<wolfspraul>
yes, but play with what ideas?
<wolfspraul>
play with Verilog?
<wolfspraul>
play with Milkymist SoC?
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien is ironically doing a lot of support for people who ask him how they can get this or that part of Milkymist to work on other fpga devel boards
<wolfspraul>
I think i've seen it all now, Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
but nothing comes back, ever
<wpwrak>
people may get an mm1 if they expect to work on the core itself, if the mm1 is clearly positioned as the reference platform
<wolfspraul>
so I think the story of Milkymist One is a story about visual effects - we have to risk to go only for what an end user can do with it
<wolfspraul>
maybe they will do a bit of Patches programming, maybe not
<wolfspraul>
maybe they will explore integration of DMX lighting systems
<wpwrak>
depends a bit on their background. if they work in a reasonably well-financed project, an mm1 is quite affordable if they think it helps them
<wolfspraul>
then we need a separate effort to get _code contributions_ into the project, whether that's for real-time video streaming, integrating still pictures into the performance, and a myriad of other features
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I haven't seen that at all yet
<wpwrak>
(only end user) yes, that seems to be the most promising direction
<wolfspraul>
in fact it's quite the opposite
<wolfspraul>
most of these people work on super small educational budgets
<wolfspraul>
they buy a subsidized fpga devel board for 19 USD (exaggerating)
<wpwrak>
(small edu budget) ah, that's bad
<wolfspraul>
they have infinite time to fiddle around with their board, in fact that's the point!
<wolfspraul>
they will end the project in an unusable chaotic messy state, which is also OK since all those realizations were the point of their work
<wolfspraul>
not 1 line of code, not 1 snippet of wisdom, experience, feedback, will come back to Sebastien
<wpwrak>
hmm, not sure. some of the discussions in #milkymist sound as if something was coming back
<wpwrak>
be it code, ideas, experience, etc.
<wpwrak>
anyway, so you don't focus marketing initially on the free or hw scene. fine.
<wpwrak>
now, the end users. what do you give them ? a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs ? a lab to develop their own stuff ? a long-term multi-purpose platform ?
<wolfspraul>
very little. yes there are 2-3 guys, they have been there forever.
<wolfspraul>
my observation is more looking at it for 6+ months
<wpwrak>
(things coming back) 2-3 guys isn't too bad. the ben is doing hardly better these days, if not worse
<wpwrak>
and compare the installed base. it's enormous in comparison :)
<wolfspraul>
well one by one. first I'm thinking about the m1 launch now.
<wolfspraul>
I don't expect the contributor situation on m1 to improve fast.
<wolfspraul>
so maybe the only approach we should focus on is to make money for the few core contributors we have now, primarily Sebastien, and then let him hack away in happiness :-)
<wolfspraul>
and then maybe over time we can extend the model to more people
<wpwrak>
it'll get worse in the sense that development resources will get diverted into what is basically user support
<wolfspraul>
so I'm mostly thinking how to sell to people who buy m1 for the visual aspect
<wolfspraul>
not for the freedom or programming aspect, primarily
<wolfspraul>
that's a nice extra for those who care
<wpwrak>
yes, so  what do you give the visual customers ? a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs ? a lab to develop their own stuff ? a long-term multi-purpose platform ?
<wolfspraul>
it's simpler than that
<wolfspraul>
first the software will boot into rendering mode right away
<wpwrak>
a sense of being ahead of the pack ? a sense of relief to have avoided falling behing ?
<wpwrak>
s/behing/behind/
<wolfspraul>
then we focus on two features, the simplicity is so striking that even you will be blown away :-)
<wpwrak>
black and blue screen ? :)
<wolfspraul>
first feature is NEXT PATCH (next visual effect)
<wolfspraul>
second feature is 'download new free patches from Internet'
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
that's it
<wolfspraul>
then market that well
<wolfspraul>
there's a whole world to discover underneath for those who want to, all the way into the IC design :-)
<wpwrak>
okay. will someone ask where those "new free patches" come from ? if you think the question will be asked, what do you answer ?
<wpwrak>
e.g., does sebastien plan to spend the rest of the year writing new patches ? :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure we can organize that, the creation of new ones
<wolfspraul>
they are download from a url
<wolfspraul>
downloaded
<wpwrak>
just to check, so you made your cross at the "a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs" option, correct ?
<wolfspraul>
I'm just describing the marketing approach now
<wpwrak>
it's no multiple choice. no small crosses at all the other options as well :)
<wolfspraul>
not just gigs, for anybody who wants to dabble in this kind of visual effects/works
<wolfspraul>
see the box like a VGA signal generator
<wolfspraul>
on the box we have space to talk about 3 features, normally
<wpwrak>
find. who does ? so you see a big non-vj market for shrink-wrapped effects ?
<wolfspraul>
hopefully the TwitterWall can fit too :-)
<wpwrak>
err, for a box that plays shrink-wrapped effects
<wolfspraul>
1) click through xx included effects
<wolfspraul>
2) download new free effects from milkymist.org
<wolfspraul>
3) connect to any twitter hash tag
<wpwrak>
implementation details :)
<wpwrak>
let's talk about the usage scenario
<wolfspraul>
under-utilized projector around?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe we should talk to projector companies?
<wolfspraul>
actually a good idea!
<wolfspraul>
a company that sells professional projectors may also be interested in m1
<wpwrak>
what would be the mix professional vj, not-quite-professional vj, hobbyist, others ? 100:10:1:0.02 ? 1:1:1:1 ? ... ?
<wpwrak>
(projectors) heh, who knows. can't hurt :) maybe they'll just want to integrate it, to have a less boring "standby" display :)
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
<wolfspraul>
which would be fine by me
<wpwrak>
sounds like a compfty niche, yes :)
<wolfspraul>
they are integrating lots of things nowadays, so you can plug in your usb stick, play videos, slide show from pictures, display microsoft office files, etc.
<wpwrak>
like elphel and google. not a marriage for life, but good while it lasts.
<wolfspraul>
I'm also thinking about smaller companies that are more like 'systems integrators' for projectors.
<wpwrak>
hmm, that sounds like office/home projectors
<wpwrak>
the one in clubs may be a different caliber
<wpwrak>
but an effect generator could still be interesting for them. why not.
<wpwrak>
might be that they'd some major customizations, though
<wpwrak>
s/they'd/they/d want/
<wolfspraul>
I would think there is at least 1 layer of companies between an Acer, Sony, etc. and say a hotel anywhere in the world that needs to equip a few conference rooms
<wolfspraul>
no way that hotel (or hotel chain) will just order the stuff from amazon, or directly from Acer/Sony/etc. sales
<wolfspraul>
there must be more companies in between, and they could be interested in m1, to sell to their customers
<wpwrak>
that's always a bit of a problem. company X comes and says they'd buy 10 k units if you'd just make this and this and this change. now, do you do it or not ? pro: the promise of big money. contra: they may drop out of the deal. and even if the deal gets through, it may send you doing stuff that doesn't bring you forward on your real objectives.
<wolfspraul>
yes but that's a normal request
<wolfspraul>
if it comes from a serious business, it's quickly responded to with an NRE, payment terms, etc.
<wolfspraul>
then they can take it or not, done
<wpwrak>
could be small local companies. they buy from resellers, then take care of installation/integration.
<wolfspraul>
they cannot know how hard such customizations are, so the request just needs to be quickly and professionally answered
<wolfspraul>
In my former life in the professional (ahem, proprietary) industry, we've dealt with such requests from LG, Kodak, Canon, and many others.
<wolfspraul>
most of such requests lead nowhere, btw
<wpwrak>
as in "it's normal for japan to get earthquakes and tsunamis every now and then" ;-)
<wpwrak>
(nowhere) i suspected as much ...
<wolfspraul>
but these big companies have many managers that are exploring many ideas
<wolfspraul>
so they need numbers, then they run the numbers, and they find out it's too expensive/too risky/not enough profit potential
<wolfspraul>
so the small company protects itself against that with the NRE
<wpwrak>
so is is even worth trying to compose a real response, with numbers and such ?
<wolfspraul>
and all is fine :-)
<wolfspraul>
good question, I don't know
<wolfspraul>
I've only seen to take this serious, yes. they are potential customers.
<wpwrak>
(real response) i.e., a quote. you probably can't charge for that.
<wolfspraul>
which business can turn down potential customers? maybe it should close right away.
<wolfspraul>
qualifying customers is hard
<wolfspraul>
no you cannot charge for that
<wpwrak>
okay, so you'll ping projector companies. do you know which ones make the big projectors for events ?
<wpwrak>
(or maybe also video walls or such)
<wpwrak>
and what was the expected customer mix again, pro vj/amateur vj/video enthusiast/other ?
<wpwrak>
maybe we can make this easier - can pro vj and amateur vj be combined ? or are their needs too different ?
<wpwrak>
also, if there's a group you feel confident just assuming to be zero, that helps with simplifying. e.g., "other" might be a candidate.
<wpwrak>
(different needs) i guess that should be that needs/channels.
<wpwrak>
of course, another strategy could be to focus on a known-to-be-too-small target market, just to get the thing rolling, and hope other opportunities pop up. such as those projector companies.
<wpwrak>
or maybe that could be called a non-strategy ;-)
<wolfspraul>
professional projectors are made by Epson, Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung, Acer, BenQ, Sony
<wolfspraul>
video enthousiast sounds like someone who enjoys watching movies, but we need people who like to create stuff, play with visual effects, real-time video, maybe video hacking if that exists
<wolfspraul>
they could have fun with m1
<wpwrak>
okay, so it's not just the people who want just playback but also creators you want to reach with your marketing message ?
<wpwrak>
(video enthusiast) yeah, needs a better name
<wpwrak>
hmm, what's exactly the wiki dialect qi-hw speaks ? i tried to embed an image in the mediawiki style (no markup, just the url) but it doesn't take it
<wolfspraul>
m1 is not about playback, it's about realtime manipulation of a video _signal_
<wpwrak>
(mm1) yeah .. effect playback :)
<wolfspraul>
features like twitter feed are new, or maybe the embedding and manipulation of still images
<wolfspraul>
or the streaming of the generated output
<wolfspraul>
but that's a lot of work and should not be part of the message today
<wolfspraul>
and not needed imo
<wolfspraul>
what we have is good and flexible enough
<wpwrak>
also, the manipulation aspect is still a bit downplayed, compared to the pure synthesis aspect
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist as a standby signal for a projector
<wolfspraul>
I like it
<wolfspraul>
those somewhat respectless ideas may surprise... :-)
<wpwrak>
if they can put nearly the equivalent of a ben into a glossy magazine, ... ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I just like the idea of emailing those corps saying "I want to sell a new standby signal for your projectors to you"
<wolfspraul>
at least someone will laugh and look at that :-)
<wpwrak>
should also be good for the press :)
<wpwrak>
how many presentable patches are there at the moment ? enough to mention their number in the initial marketing message ?
<wolfspraul>
not sure, I need to pay more attention to the patches
<wolfspraul>
yes, there are a lot and they are nice
<wolfspraul>
along the lines of the standby signal, one could also say m1 is a nice way to fill time between talks, at a conference
<wpwrak>
;-)))
<wolfspraul>
so instead of making m1 the central thing, sell it as a way to fill time 'in between'
<wolfspraul>
why not. if it sells...
<wolfspraul>
and there is indeed _a lot_ of time between talks, at every event
<wpwrak>
i just though that it could also nicely replace a lot of boring presentations at company meetings. dilbert may like it :)
<wolfspraul>
with video-in patches the audience could be engaged, with a hash tag they could display things etc.
<wolfspraul>
maybe not even start the next talk because it's too much fun :-)
<wolfspraul>
when the next guy wants to start, he's booed off stage. we should make a promotional clip along those lines...
<wolfspraul>
who hasn't been at a boring talk???
<wpwrak>
this could go so wrong. imagine response to audio input. before you know, you'll turn a reasonably quiet if bored audience into a roaring mob ;-))
<wpwrak>
now we have something for rejon to set up. place camera. upload to youtube :)
<wpwrak>
hmm. how many simultaneous audio inputs does it have ?
<wolfspraul>
simultaneous?
<wolfspraul>
there is line-in, plus microphone
<wolfspraul>
the rest would have to come over Ethernet (not implemented now), or USB (even more effort), or hardware hacks I guess
<wolfspraul>
so two right now, line-in + mic
<wpwrak>
mic is the built-in one ?
<wpwrak>
line-in is two channels, left and right ?
<wolfspraul>
good question, yes I think it's stereo
<wolfspraul>
mic is built-in, yes
<wolfspraul>
line-in is typically connected to a music player
<wpwrak>
okay, with stereo you could do this: place one external microphone to left, one to the right. place the camera in the middle, looking at the audience, ideally from above but not too high. analyze the audio signal for peaks and determine the difference in arrival time between left and right
<wolfspraul>
and then?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
sounds like a fun start
<wpwrak>
when you get a peak, digital-zoom in at the origin of the peak. run some wacky effect on it for a few seconds. then zoom out again.
<wolfspraul>
ok that kind of programmable camera interaction would be new though
<wolfspraul>
needs a motor controlled camera, zoom, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but of course, it all exists
<wpwrak>
no no .. all static
<wpwrak>
take an image of the room and digitally zoom
<wpwrak>
only the pixels move, not the equipment
<wpwrak>
well, until things get seriously out of control ;-)
<wpwrak>
hmm, we may just have invented the successor of karaoke. needs even less skills ;-))
<wpwrak>
only drawback is that this would already block all the audio inputs. well, you could have an external switch/mixer
<wpwrak>
what's the maximum video in resolution ? vga ?
<wolfspraul>
another good question, don't know
<wolfspraul>
about zooming in automatically to 'moving' parts, that sounds like a serious undertaking as well
<wolfspraul>
of course this is doable, but remember we have more or less one full-power engineer working on the whole stack right now
<wolfspraul>
the video signal is pal or ntsc, doesn't that answer the resolution question?
<wpwrak>
you basically need two components: one that analyzes the audio and returns a peak yes/no and peak position indication in real time, plus the zoom.
<wpwrak>
(one engineer) yeah, that's a bit limiting ...
<wpwrak>
hmm, sounds vga-ish or worse then
<wolfspraul>
and it's not clear yet whether we can support 3 different video signals or not (with multiplexing)
<wolfspraul>
so for now let's assume only one
<wpwrak>
one video would be sufficient
<wpwrak>
it's just the crowdcam. the rest is generated inside
<wpwrak>
well, you could also have multiple cameras if you want to get fancy
<wpwrak>
impressive .. imagemagick can convert xcf files, too
<dvdk>
(just an experiment, first article i ever submitted)
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: making the project popular and having people submit patches
<lekernel>
dvdk: cool
<dvdk>
guess the slashdot moderator's are still sleeping, maybe shouldn't have submitted that early "in the morning" :)
<wpwrak>
oh shit. now i need to fix my image links **quickly** :)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: very nice article, by the way. concise yet says everything that needs saying.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: thx
<dvdk>
btw got a mail from the slashdot system some 30m ago saying it was posted.  but as it hasn't shown up yet, so either "posted" isn't what i think it means, or there's some delay built in
<dvdk>
keeps hitting reload :)
<wpwrak>
"not so fast" said the girl to the sailor ...
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (genetics) that's exactly what i though about it too ! :)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: wrt your last commit: trying to brace for the slashdot effect?
<kristianpaul>
i dont get the sense/context of the genetics word in that title
<wpwrak>
dvdk: naw, saving them from a nasty 2.5 MB surprise when they click on an image ;-)
<kristianpaul>
s/m1 is a nice way to fill time between talks/m1 is a nice way to fill walls
<kristianpaul>
people just dont know what they can do, you need tell it how, in a short video or something
<kristianpaul>
even me,, i discove trought xiangfu that _awesome_ patches to keyboard feature
<kristianpaul>
so a video about how to do that is not bad
<wpwrak>
dvdk: hmm, there should also be some link for further communication. well, let's see if people can figure it out on their own.
<kristianpaul>
my point is an article is not enought, i will head more to whatever writing poiting a demostration of the current milkymist features
<kristianpaul>
wich btw i dont get yet how the patch editor can be really usefull if you dont have a window to edit it separatelly, recompile and get fun with it
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: the number of articles you can get out this way is limited. so you need a second level with more information, and connect it to these articles.
<kristianpaul>
oh sure, but thats when things get hard ;)
<kristianpaul>
btw about mic, will be nice to know wich patches reacts with the mic-in i have the "feeling" some do and others dont, but you get catught when it works, if youy we're making a sound and watching the wall with the milkydrop effect
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: put a LED next to each input and turn on the LEDs if the input is being used ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: nice
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: video, mic, line in, ...
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: I don't think every post, even if accepted in a category, makes it to the homepage
<qwebirc35300>
kewl. works.
<wpwrak>
shall i just link from the bottom of the web page to the qi-hw list and this channel ?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: yes i think the qi-hw list is pretty important.  was not so easy for me to find, when i "accidentally" bought my nanonote.
<wolfspraul>
if it does get onto the homepage, I would expect about 8000 visitors on the first day, then maybe 5000 on the second day, then drop a lot
<wolfspraul>
at least those were roughly the numbers last time the NanoNote was on slashdot
<wolfspraul>
back then that converted into about 100 NanoNote sales in the US and Canada alone
<wpwrak>
seems that we made the front page. brace for impact :-)
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately the server couldn't really hold up well, maybe visitors (and sales) would have been a bit higher with a more scalable system
<wpwrak>
let's hope the all-static content on downloads holds up better ;-)
<lekernel>
slashdot is just moderated now? they don't have their voting system anymore?
<wolfspraul>
still voting I think, though I wouldn't hold my breadth for the democracy aspect there
<wolfspraul>
Chinese democracy? :-)
<wolfspraul>
ah hold on, that will be called 'democracy with Chinese characteristics' when they implement it
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kodein>
I see the nanonote is on the /. frontpage
<wpwrak>
feels a little silly for having reused rejon's introduction line that put my name before anything else
<lekernel>
kodein: great
<lekernel>
now this should happen once a month or so :)
<kodein>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
man I'm too slow
<wolfspraul>
I will put an infobox right on the top talking about Milkymist too :-) (on the wiki page it links to)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: we have wpan, which should be rolling off the factory belt any moment now. if they haven't already. (i hope not ... for i don't think anyone is prepared to actually test the critters)
<kristianpaul>
he nice
<kristianpaul>
oh, hace a hardhack tag..
<kristianpaul>
ah hard is for hardware..
<lekernel>
wpwrak: good
<lekernel>
so, for next month we already have one story in the pipeline
<kristianpaul>
we need a slashdot article for milkymist :-)
<lekernel>
sure, we are working on some press releases in parallel
<lekernel>
I can't access slashdot.org ... works for you?
<wolfspraul>
slashdot articles for milkymist are easy (ok, and not easy). Easy in the sense that there are at least 10 different slashdot stories in it.
<wolfspraul>
and not easy in the sense that they need a gifted writer, and the right idea/headline, to make a good post for slashdot
<wolfspraul>
it needs to be digested slowly, so we actually need a series of milkymist stories :-)
<kristianpaul>
well the lua/dmx hack the other dat may applied?..
<kristianpaul>
or what should be postend on /.
<kristianpaul>
?
<kristianpaul>
stories, i see
<wolfspraul>
well yes, but it needs to be put in context
<wolfspraul>
it needs a good headline
<wolfspraul>
it needs the right timing, i.e. it has to be done multiple times over time, and so on
<wolfspraul>
David did great, he just did it :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: /. may not be such a bad place for spreading the word about MM1. there, you can probably squeeze in multiple articles about different angles of the same product more easily than at traditional places.
<wolfspraul>
it's just one form away - same is true for pretty much every other online publication btw
<wolfspraul>
'tip us'
<wolfspraul>
they want others to write the good texts
<wolfspraul>
ok I posted a bit desperate sounding banner on the top of the page
<wolfspraul>
no there was no edit. kristianpaul can you reload?
<wolfspraul>
the new banner should be there
<kristianpaul>
ah..
<kristianpaul>
is not loading here..
<wolfspraul>
should I set the admin flag on?
<wolfspraul>
maybe I just do it for peace of mind
<kristianpaul>
second
<kristianpaul>
still loading..
<kristianpaul>
may be is just me and been far away from germany ;)
<dvdk>
i guess the cgi based wiki is currently hitting its limits
<kristianpaul>
yeah, now i see why people at wikimedia uses proxies :-)
<kristianpaul>
funny it finally loaded and no banner
<kristianpaul>
anyway..
<wolfspraul>
you cannot compare the typical mediawiki install with the custom setup used by wikipedia.org etc
<kristianpaul>
sure :)
<dvdk>
kristianpaul: what do you mean with 'no banner'?
<wolfspraul>
in fact they are doing a big service to the world by keeping the same software used on that site, and still make it easily installable and usable by everybody else
<wolfspraul>
it's a lot of extra work
<kristianpaul>
dvdk: wolfspraul put a banner/announcement in a red like box in the top qi-hw
<wolfspraul>
the bottlenecks on a typical machine like the one that hosts qi-hardware.com starts with memory (the way Apache is setup), and then probably already CPU
<kristianpaul>
or may be is gone now already..
<dvdk>
kristianpaul: if that's "the banner" than i can see it when loaded from here (germany)
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: yeah I am shamelessly trying to steal some peoples attention and tell them about Milkymist
<dvdk>
kristianpaul: then your browser/proxy might do some caching.
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: yes it reads a little desperate
<wolfspraul>
still!
<wolfspraul>
that's already after wpwrak toned it down
<kristianpaul>
probably
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: can you suggest a more noble wording?
<kristianpaul>
as i said dont use the word Slashdot on it
<kristianpaul>
and surelly will sound less desesperate ;)
<wolfspraul>
ok. that page is super chaotic anyway. so a bit more chaos at the top in a banner won't hurt, indeed.
<wolfspraul>
I remove that welcome thing
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: "we have been slashdotted.  to keep you from further stressing this wiki, let us just point you to the Milkymist (our next-gen project) and Tuxbrain+Sharism (our distributors for EU resp. the rest of the world)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: nice !
<dvdk>
just an idea.  have to go now.  as i said, it's your problem now :)
<wolfspraul>
he he
<kristianpaul>
lol
<wolfspraul>
yes, very good text
<wolfspraul>
will do
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (chaotic) don't you say ! ;-) i think that wiki needs three things: a) a more hacker-friendly foundation, e.g., git-based (i've been whining about this for a long time, i know :) b) better performance. not sure where the specific bottleneck is, though. c) serious cleanup. some pages are hopelessly overloaded while others don't quite show enough and/or are dead ends. i think a) could also help to better control those dead en
<wpwrak>
ds.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for better consistency, we'd need to find (a) wiki editor(s). not sure if anyone is volunteering. there are people who love to do this kind of work, but i'm not sure if many of those are hanging out around here.
<wolfspraul>
can't edit anymore, oh well
<wpwrak>
keep on trying :)
<wpwrak>
did you set the admin flag ?
<wolfspraul>
yes, already done earlier
<kristianpaul>
sd... sd...
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: remenbering the SD-like branding
<kristianpaul>
microSD ans such
<wpwrak>
ah yes. i carefully avoided that one ;-)
<wpwrak>
used MMC a few times, though, but i hope that's reasonably safe
<steve|m>
wow, you're on slashdot :D
<kristianpaul>
17:00Â Â 17:30
<kristianpaul>
Fabricating a Libre Graphics Future
<kristianpaul>
Jon Phillips
<kristianpaul>
Day 4Â Â Friday May 13
<kristianpaul>
I hope thats mm1 related talk..
<kristianpaul>
wow just before closing talk
<wolfspraul>
no there is no mm1 talk
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
Jon was planning to use the m1 in breaks and such
<kristianpaul>
nice
<wolfspraul>
well, if it really happens
<wolfspraul>
that's the problem with the press release. if I am not sure what is really happening there, I will not push out any press release.
<kristianpaul>
he, thats always a problem if you dont carry with you right equipoment like projector...
<wolfspraul>
so I will write a draft, and then hopefully we get a few more facts to fill in
<wolfspraul>
if it's credible, push it out to go through the motions
<wolfspraul>
if not, then we rather wait until we have some real news, not just make up a fake story that didn't even happen in reality. That would be quite embarassing :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: well, if rejon assures you that he'll do something specific (whatever it is he plans to end up doing), you can probably announce it at face value. then maybe make a nice after the event report once it has occurred.
<wpwrak>
comments on /. are good so far. some who don't get it, others who explain them, one troll, ... good catch so far :)
<wpwrak>
the "to keep you from further stressing this wiki" also has a bit of an odd ring to it. for the next wave, maybe we should have something along the lines of "exploring this site may be slow for a while. you may find these interesting:"
<wpwrak>
or similar. still doesn't sound too great.
<lekernel>
I still can't access slashdot
<lekernel>
qi hardware server stats:  11:27:20 up 100 days, 14:53,  3 users,  load average: 50.83, 46.43, 41.89
<rjeffries>
wolfsprau1l "genetics of audiovisual" is a meaningless phrase.
<dvdk>
anybody else noticed, that the irc-log hasn't been updated during the last few hours?
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
qi-bot: alive??
<kyak>
dvdk: seems that all is fine.. Note the the log is int UTC
<kristianpaul>
qi-bot: ping
<kristianpaul>
ah yes UTC is consuding at first
<kristianpaul>
seem fine
<kristianpaul>
good wpwrak is goint to FISL too,
<kristianpaul>
last intro mail sent..
<rjeffries>
waht is involved with creating a new patch for milkymist?
<dvdk>
kyak: now i get the latest log.  hmm, maybe a caching issue overe here.
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: a bit of RTFM about milkydrop,
<kristianpaul>
sadly :/
<kristianpaul>
i dint fully understand it yet..
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul wolfsprau1l making it relatively wasy for a milkymist user to create and modify patches using high level controls sounds like a genuine need
<rjeffries>
dvdk the irc log seemed to be unreachable at first for me. then is mysteriously came to life
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: not so, people can do minor modification and learn/experiment from there
<kristianpaul>
there are lots of patches ready to work
<kristianpaul>
you dont need start from scratch allways
<kristianpaul>
unless you really know what you want to do :)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: i think the irc log is updated only about every 30 minutes. with the shashdot hordes hammering at the server, it may be a bit slower :)
<lekernel>
doing it in Flickernoise isn't any harder
<lekernel>
plus we're going to have an online repository of pre-written patches with single-click update, for the lazy and clueless
<kristianpaul>
hum, seems wpwrak is also replying some comments at ?.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: i hope your fanbase loves it when you talk dirty to them ;-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: just one so far
<kristianpaul>
yeah i knew it was you :)
<rozzin>
kyak: I run an open, unencrypted WiFi access-point, firewall WiFi off from my wired network, and run OpenVPN on top of the WiFi link if I need satellite-to-home encryption or unfiltered access to my wired network.
<rozzin>
kyak: `open but still encrypted to the AP' isn't really all that great an idea,
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I just pimped your VGA thingie on Identica and Google Buzz
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: great, thanks !
<wpwrak>
let's see how long until NYT picks it up :)
<rozzin>
kyak: ... because, while you [might] be insulated from the other users of the AP, you still end up trusting the AP and its operators.
<rozzin>
It's end-to-end or bust.
<kyak>
rozzin: you are reading too much logs :)
<rozzin>
I think there actually *was* a movement to do `open but encrypted to the AP' a decade ago....
<rjeffries>
wolfsprau1l what hardwrae is sed for your server. it is acrting hammered. a good problem to have,
<rozzin>
Or maybe I'm just remembering the move by hotspot-providers to `secure' things.
<rozzin>
I vaguely remember seeing a `why having a `secure' link to an AP operated by an unknown/untrusted operator *doesn't* provide *you* with security' article, about ten years ago.
<rozzin>
kyak: I'm actually just slow to respond.
<rozzin>
kyak: I'll tell you more about *that* in a week or so... ;)
<kyak>
rozzin: hehe :)
<kyak>
rozzin: you are building a VPN tunnel to your wired network, do i understand correctly? What should "simple" users do when they accessed your opened, unencrypted WiFI?
<rozzin>
kyak: You understand that correctly.
<rozzin>
kyak: `simple' users don't get access to my private resources on my wired network. period.
<rozzin>
kyak: That's why those resources are on a wired (physically-based access) network in the first place ;)
<rozzin>
kyak: People who are using my AP to go upstream should do the same thing regardless of whether the short/near link was encrypted: *don't trust me* not to snoop the packets passing through my AP.
<rozzin>
kyak: They shouldn't trust my ISP, either.
<rozzin>
kyak: It's amazing what you can see when you control the router--I've done `I can see what you're looking at online even before you do' demonstrations for houseguests before.
<rozzin>
My wife had a friend over, and one of them must have said something that lead me to explain network-topologies....
<rozzin>
Oh, I think one of them must have asked why it was so slow, and then watched me boot a freeloader.
<rozzin>
... who was running bittorrent or something.
<wpwrak>
s/hard/heard/Â Â # argh
<rozzin>
Then the obvious question was asked: `how did you do that, or even find that out?'
<rozzin>
wpwrak: ... so I started up driftnet...
<rozzin>
... waited a few seconds, and then asked, "So, which of you is looking at the picture of the samurai'".
<rozzin>
Neither of them knew what I was talking about, until 10 minutes later--when that image finally, actually appeared on the friend's screen (she was on some javascript-heavy site that was doing aggressive preloading).
<wpwrak>
they would be so proud at minority report ;-)
<kyak>
rozzin: if only everyone had their own private VPn server :)
<rozzin>
She yelled, "Wait--there's the samurai! WTF!? How did you do that!?"
<rozzin>
So then I got out the network-diagram again....
<rozzin>
And they both went, `ooooh...'.
<rozzin>
kyak: Well, the point is that I'm *not* going through the VPN most of the time.
<rozzin>
kyak: I've used it something like 3 times in the past 6 years.
<rozzin>
kyak: because most of the Internet is outside my VPN anyway--see? ;)
<kyak>
well.. guess i just have more dirty secrets
<rozzin>
kyak: Even if I passed through the VPN, I'd still have to go over an unsecured link run by an unknown/untrusted operator to get to the Internet.
<rozzin>
kyak: Several of them, in fact--try running `ping -R' or traceroute, some time :)
<rozzin>
kyak: Like I said, it's *end-to-end* or bust.
<kyak>
rozzin: that's for sure, but it's not the reason to neglect your security.
<kyak>
at least where you can
<rozzin>
kyak: Hunh?
<kyak>
i doubt some provider overthere is analyzing the whole traffic passing by. It's more probable that someone in your neighbourhood is doing that
<kyak>
so you should take care about encryption in those parts where you have control
<kyak>
that's the best you can do, and it's better than nothing
<rozzin>
kyak: If you reduce the number of points at which someone can evesdrop on your online banking session from 10 points to 9, most of the sense of secuurity there is false.
<rozzin>
kyak: If you just secure the link end-to-end, you are better off--
<kyak>
i just hope you are not suggesting to drop the security at all because of that many points your traffic is passing through
<rozzin>
and adding additional layers of encrypted comms with local AP-operators (who you just said are more likely to be the ones sniffing your packets!;)) doesn't buy you anything beyond what the end-to-end HTTPS link gets you.
<rozzin>
kyak: I think you need to lookup what "end-to-end" means :)
<kristianpaul>
actually analyzing the whole traffic is a service you have to pay if want security :p
<kristianpaul>
ha
<rozzin>
kyak: what I'm saying is: if you care about security, use https instead of http or ftp, use ssh instead of telnet, etc.
<rozzin>
kyak: *do not trust local AP-operators like me*.
<kristianpaul>
he
<kyak>
rozzin: i'll write it down as an advice of the year, thanks :)
<kristianpaul>
dont use the internet !!
<rozzin>
kyak: ... because I've already revealed that I'm snooping on your traffic--regardless of whether you encrypt the link *between* us ;)
<rozzin>
I definitely would not trust the 19-year-old running the AP at the coffee-shop.
<rozzin>
There's no reason to expect them to have had any ethics education at all, so I'd basically expect thinks like the infamous Zuckerberg IM session :)
<rozzin>
I'd probaly trust a 30-year-old running the cafe's AP less than the 19-year-old, too :)
<rozzin>
Is there some sort of audio-recorder that works well on Ben NanoNote?
<kristianpaul>
arecord
<kristianpaul>
arecord -d 8 -f cd -t wav test.wav
<kristianpaul>
aplay later..
<rozzin>
Mm. I was thinking something less... command-line :)
<kristianpaul>
you are free to remove the other appps..
<rozzin>
I'll have to look at what that is.
<kristianpaul>
please :)
<kristianpaul>
gotta go, bye
<rozzin>
I'm building an OpenWRT-based system for my wife, and she would like to be able to use the microphone to record the noises that the baby makes.
<rozzin>
But it'd be an auxiliary function.
<rozzin>
The primary use is to run ncmpc on vt1, and mpdjay in the background.
<rozzin>
GJay needs all of the CPU & RAM it can get, so I guess I'm looking for something almost as slim as arecord :)
<wpwrak>
let's see if i can get a "ps" ... the response time feels like those good old batch-oriented computers.
<it_is_me>
sources for an 32mb machine so big??
<rozzin>
checks Slashdot.
<rozzin>
Mmm.
<it_is_me>
linux IS a batchOS :P
<it_is_me>
well, at least it came from there ;)
<Fusin>
wb botty
<wpwrak>
memory seems to be mainly used by a number of  git ls-tree
<kyak>
wpwrak: hmm.. the bot is running under "eggdrop" user
<wpwrak>
kyak: eggdrop seems to behave
<wpwrak>
load average: 80.07, 89.18, 90.40Â Â getting better
<kyak>
users can't get served and give up
<wpwrak>
yeah, probably.
<wpwrak>
roh: any quick load control measures you can recommend ? seems that apache shouldn't accept all that many connections.
<wpwrak>
roh: (i suppose you have root on turandot ?)
<wpwrak>
load average: 69.25, 80.53, 86.72
<wpwrak>
feeling almost responsive :)
<kyak>
there should be MaxClients in apache config
<kyak>
might be something else
<Fusin>
ListenBacklog <quantity>
<wpwrak>
not sure if listenbacklog makes a bit difference. that would be more like kernel memory wasted on connections you'll never serve. once that is the problem, you're pretty much dead already anyway ;-)
<wpwrak>
i'll stop apache for a oment
<Fusin>
MaxKeepAliveRequests !=0 (o is infinite)
<wpwrak>
such a racist thing to do ... at the first sign of trouble, kill the natives
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i took down turandot's apache server for about half an hour and lowered MaxClients from an overly optimistic 150 to 40. load average had gone through the roof, >80
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: restarted it a few minutes ago. so far, it's behaving
<wolfspraul>
ahh, I was just wondering
<wolfspraul>
yes 40 is good
<Fusin>
is it a virtual server?
<wolfspraul>
the Piwik stats show ca. 5100 visitors so far
<wpwrak>
how many was it during the last invasion ?
<wolfspraul>
yes, virtual
<roh>
wpwrak: whats running on that machine? seving http only should be easy for some hundred connections at a time
<wpwrak>
roh: lot of things. planet, lists too, it think. downloads, some mystery mysql. git.
<Fusin>
virtual servers are always tricky, no ones really knows what the 100 other virtual webmasters runs...
<wpwrak>
planet is a bit of a hog. kept on running for some 5-10 minutes after apache was dead. then mysql took another 5+ more to calm down.
<wolfspraul>
I do because the entire physical box is rented by me.
<roh>
wpwrak: the most imporant thing is that the connections are closed fast, successfully
<wpwrak>
lesson for the next PR campaign: put the web server on its own machine and make sure all content linked in the announcement is static ;-)
<roh>
planet runs from cron in regular intervals
<roh>
not that evil.
<roh>
renders static output
<wpwrak>
roh: now apache seems to run smoothly. i think the problem with planet was that several jobs were piling up
<roh>
that should never happen (multiple runs interleaving)
<wolfspraul>
yes, correct. connections need to be served fast or rejected right away.
<wpwrak>
i saw several (3-4, don't remember exactly) planet processes burning ~60-70 CPU among each other.
<wolfspraul>
so reducing maxclient from 150 to 40 was correct, although 40 maybe is a little low now.
<wolfspraul>
the entire machine can be optimized in many ways, but that's all work in itself and I don't want to end up with 10 different machines, say openmoko style :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, i picked a conservative limit. see if there are any surprises :) i think the git-to-web interface is also a bit "expensive"
<wolfspraul>
to prepare for better scalability, I rather increase memory, or move to a bigger box, or even just make this machine the only one on the physical host
<roh>
wolfspraul: openmoko were not many machines. just more vms. makes administration much easier (no intersections where not neccessary)
<wolfspraul>
I know but I doubt that and I don't want many vms.
<wpwrak>
it may make sense to separate potential high-load services from the more predictable ones. that way, when a wave hits, you only have one set of services to worry about and not fires popping up all over the place.
<wpwrak>
anyway, it's all your choice ;-) i marked the two changes in apache2.conf with " - wa"
<wolfspraul>
I like how these NGOs (or this article) stays relatively down to earth and just reports facts. So it helps people understand each other, which is good.
<wolfspraul>
I mean the 2 NGOs specifically mentioned as the source of these 'findings'.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: in that list, which item you find is the most surprising, or most 'inhumane'?
<roh>
wolfspraul: btw.. one feat of virtualisation is: seperated ressource limiting ,)
<kristianpaul>
may be the excessive overtime but that happene everywhere.
<roh>
let the download apache not take down the wiki etc.
<kristianpaul>
the "confession letter" looks odd to me