DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services]
DocScrutinizer05 has joined #neo900
pagurus` has joined #neo900
pagurus` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pagurus` has joined #neo900
pagurus` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pagurus has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
pagurus` has joined #neo900
dl2s4 has joined #neo900
Xqq111 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dal has joined #neo900
chomwitt has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
chomwitt has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
infobot has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<sn0wmonster>
are all nokia phones bootlocked?
<sn0wmonster>
can you take a nokia phone and install a "custom ROM" on it?
<sn0wmonster>
or is impossible, and that's why neo900 exists?
<Sicelo>
all? NO
<sn0wmonster>
so there are Nokia phones that you can install a custom ROM on?
<Sicelo>
i don't know :) we can boot arbitrary OS on N900 if that's what you mean
Pangolin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Pangolin has joined #neo900
paulk-collins has joined #neo900
lobito has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Pali has joined #neo900
<atk>
sn0wmonster: the reason Neo900 exists is to bring a updated N900 to people who want it.
<atk>
sn0wmonster: a N900 with more features and more power (not to say that the N900 is underpowered, it's actually already quite powerful for most tasks, and also not to say that it is under-featured, it already has lots of useful features)
<DocScrutinizer05>
chomwitt: it seems the box still lacks a lot of needed stuff like component libraries. I tried to install those (apt-get install kicad-common) but that made apt want to nuke my freshly installed shiny kicad
<DocScrutinizer05>
I already pondered if it's maybe necessary to buold the kicad-common package from source (however nonsensical since it's only data files aiui) - anyway I wasn't able to locate any source package for kicad-common that looked like it might be right version
<DocScrutinizer05>
some other thing that came to mind of a apt noob was that there might be a way to install the kicad-common with a --ignore-dependencies option or whatever
<atk>
it looks like kicad-common replaces old versions of kicad
<atk>
most likely what happened is kicad-common split from kicad
<atk>
this means that kicad-common will provide files provided by old versions of the kicad package
<DocScrutinizer05>
or use dpkg -i, ir whatever. However I wouldn't want to see the permanent apt-get error "database broken, some packages have unmet dependencies, use apt-get -f to fix"
<atk>
you simply need to install kicad-common with a newer version of the kicad package (the version you can see on the "Replaces" line)
<atk>
Basically, before version 0.20120126+bzr3256-1 of the "kicad" package, the common data needed by kicad and kicad itself were bundled together under one package.
<atk>
On version <bla> the packagers split up kicad into two packages, kicad-common and kicad
<atk>
you most likely have an old kicad package (before version <bla>) which bundles the common files, and kicad-common is telling you that it conflicts with that package (because it provides the same files)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're aware we built that version of kicad installed in that system a 3 days ago from scratch?
<DocScrutinizer05>
some PPA stuff, at least that buzzword comes to mind
<atk>
Well basically, this suggests that the version scheme used in the package has somehow changed and congfused apt
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm clueless about all this
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
I tried to find the kicad-common package for ubuntu (which is what we used for building kicad aiui), but to no success
<atk>
Are you simply trying to get a copy of the most bleeding edge kicad you can find running well in a VM?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, the purpose is to *build* it
<atk>
Does it have to be devuan?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need to be able to build our tool
Pangolin has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, devuan would be nice
<atk>
I'm sure I could get something working in void-linux where you BUILD kicad using the provided tools.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see how using another distro would basically change things, as long as we are building for ourselves anyway and the distro is dpk/apt based
<atk>
Ah, no, void uses its own build system
Pangolin has joined #neo900
<atk>
do you know how to use apt to tell you which version of the kicad package you have installed right now?
<atk>
and could you not also build your own kicad-common package the same way you did your kicad package?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I used a reasonably ubuntu-compatible environment since wpwrak uses kicad natively under his ubuntu OS
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas I can't copy text to clipboard
<DocScrutinizer05>
well I could do sth else
<atk>
just tell me what the version line says
<atk>
that's all I'm curious about
<atk>
I still think you'd have bigger issues if you tried to get kicad-common to install (if your version number scheme has inconsistencies that confuse apt, what else could be different...)
<DocScrutinizer05>
termbin.com/5uim
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf?! Conflicts: kicad-common
<atk>
That's the cause
<atk>
I imagine the package contains what kicad-common contains
<atk>
what is it that is missing from kicad that you want to put in there?
<atk>
libraries?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wel, hahaha. I guess it built the component-libs, docs, helpfiles, translations, whatnot, but the build process placed them into the locations used in ubuntu, not known by debian
<atk>
Hmm, possibly what you need instead is: "kicad-library"
<atk>
and kicad-doc-en
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds good
<atk>
Tell me if that fixes things.
<DocScrutinizer05>
on an unrelated topic: how would I tell a VBox instance to share clipboard with host?
<atk>
guest shit installed + some config option somewhere, but it was a bit weird when I used it...
<atk>
to paste text you can always just use sprunge like so: some command | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us
<atk>
I have to agree with you though, debian packaging is confusing as hell
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
I will try to find again the reasons why I didn't try to install kicad-library and kicad-doc-en, which sounded the obvious to me and took me a while until I realized that kicad-common might be the supposed way to do instead
<atk>
I imagine what is happening is that the ppa you are using to get the latest kicad version uses a completely different way of dealing with kicad packages than the distro you are on. So your distro's original repositories had the packages "kicad" and "kicad-common", but this PPA uses "kicad", "kicad-library", "kicad-doc-en", and "kicad-demo" to provide the same files.
<atk>
so the new library makes sure that kicad conflicts with the default packaging layout "kicad-common" to prevent weird issues
<DocScrutinizer05>
((ppa you are using to get the latest kicad version uses a completely different way of dealing with kicad packages than the distro you are on)) yes, exactly my thoughts
rjeffries has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I use vagrant ssh to log in to the VM from a native terminal
rjeffries has joined #neo900
<atk>
that works too :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
using a VM xterm feels pretty dumbassy
<DocScrutinizer05>
sooo... let's torture apt-* a bit, to find out about that miracle
<wpwrak>
how about installing kicad-library ? the ppa should include that
chomwitt has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
http://paste.opensuse.org/36334055 and I tried to query the web (packages.debian.com, and ubunto whatever) to understand what to use, do, get... to have kicad libraries installed. Left me thoroughly puzzled. Then I suspected what we discussed above and tried to spot the componnet-lib files et al on my local build in the VM, but since I don't know exactly what's the names of those files, I was down to guessing and poking around, result
<DocScrutinizer05>
you may guess (hint: not good)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: I thought apt-cache search should find/offer this (kicad-library) even from PPA. But no dice
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh maybe the "deb src" in sources.list?
<wpwrak>
dunno. i just have it generate a default .pro, then add the libs and stuff manually
<wpwrak>
whee ! :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
now this is sth we can base on, no matter if we step by step replace or augment those component libs by qi versions or own ones
* DocScrutinizer05
highfives himself for spotting the deb-src issue
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly sometimes it's an advantage to be total apt noob
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<atk>
The only time I've ever used apt was on the n900
<DocScrutinizer05>
me too :-)
<atk>
Ah, tell a lie, I set up mint for someone... I had to use apt then.. I think..
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, and on GTA02, though that was rather a perverted version of dpkg called opkg
<DocScrutinizer05>
[notice] to put KiCAD in bagrant.box to work, open a terminal, su - ((devuan)); echo 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/js-reynaud/kicad-4/ubuntu xenial main' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/xenial.list; apt-get update; apt-get install kicad-library
<DocScrutinizer05>
or from within terminal where you ran `vagrant up`, do `vagrant ssh ((devuan)); echo 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/js-reynaud/kicad-4/ubuntu xenial main' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/xenial.list; apt-get update; apt-get install kicad-library
<DocScrutinizer05>
chomwitt: ^^^
jonsger1 has joined #neo900
<sn0wmonster>
atk: can the N900 run Debian like the Neo900 can?
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wbsure
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
infobot has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wb
<infobot>
It's great to be back!
<atk>
sn0wmonster: yes
<atk>
Apparently someone even ran gentoo on it and used emacs as a UI
<sn0wmonster>
ah so the issue is that the old n900 is a bit slow and can't run as much, but the Neo900 will be closer to what a computer would be?
<zakx>
also, it only has an UMTS modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically yes. We have a 1GHz CPU instead 600MHz, and FOUR times the RAM (RAM resp the lack thereof, and subsequent swap hell, was/is the major bottleneck for N900 performance)
<sn0wmonster>
I wouldn't use the modem, if possible, i'd rip it out physically (but i guess that'd break the phone)
<sn0wmonster>
i just want a handheld computer basically
<sn0wmonster>
something that can connect to wifi, connect to tor, and let me push to my dev git repos from a cafe
<zakx>
(it runs full linux, don't get thrown off by the games)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sn0wmonster: you could order a phone without modem, but that tends to make the device more expensive instead cheaper. Also it's pretty easy to permantly disable the modem so it feels like it never been there, by simply unsoldering the 4-pin power switch for the modem that's otherwise controlled by the linux sysfs
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly I don't understand why you feel so strong about getting rid of the modem
<sn0wmonster>
am i wrong to think the modem is closed source and can be controlled remotely by a telecom provider, and potentially backdoored?
<sn0wmonster>
or that it can be used without my knowledge to triangulate position even when i have no sim card in the device,
<DocScrutinizer05>
one major selling point of Neo900 is: you can be 1000% sure when you say *no modem* there will be no active modem in Neo900, by simply shutting it down completely on a physical level
<sn0wmonster>
oh great
<sn0wmonster>
as i understand it, i can't do that to any of my existing android devices
<sn0wmonster>
but i'm still learning
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, this is pretty unique to Neo900
jonsger1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the reason we still cling to the project. We want to have control over what our device does
<DocScrutinizer05>
simply watch pages/slides 15 to 23
<DocScrutinizer05>
it gets you up to date in 30s
<DocScrutinizer05>
and covers all the topics you discussed in other channels but were confronted with ignorance about it
<sn0wmonster>
nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
note that N900 already was/is as 'good' as p.17
<DocScrutinizer05>
p21 to 23 are Neo900 improvements which make a lot of differnence to people like you and me who really care
<DocScrutinizer05>
our mantra is: you can't have a secure phone by simply using a allegedly secure OS (see e.g. blackphone), you need to start implementing security on a hw level, only then a secure software on top of that makes any sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
our mantra for experts is: we don't just block, we rather monitor to detect any rogue behavior, so we not only can be sure we are not prone to any eavesdropping but we actually would notice when we become a target
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course you're free to not bother about all the monitoring and simply be happy with a reliably disabled modem and be done with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
for our approach however disabling the modem hard is only a last resort
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we basically placed the modem into a permanently installed and continuously working lab tesbench sandbox
<sn0wmonster>
that is very good to hear
<DocScrutinizer05>
and on a side effect you could even use the RF monitor which is watching the antenna, and detect other sending phones or generally transmitter in the modem antenna frequency range by it. We can distinguish inbound RF energy from outbound ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and as I said, all this sandboxing and monitoring is absolutely unique to Neo900 (for all we know) and can't be found even in allegedly 'secure' phones like blackphone
<DocScrutinizer05>
for blackphone it's even pretty likely that they use a shared-RAM approach and thus are as bad as it gets regarding lack of separation between userland (aka linux) system and modem (aka rogue) system
<DocScrutinizer05>
I heard runours they recently noticed that 'flaw' in their product and now aim for an audit of the modem firmware to somewhat ensure the modem doesn't introduce security issues into the blackphone. Alas they will fail epically with that, since... even *if* you were able to completely audit modem firmware (it's as complex as a complete full fledged linux desktop system), nobody could warrant that this audited modem firmware isn't getting
<DocScrutinizer05>
replaced by a rogue unaudited one via OTA update, without user even taking any notice
<pigeons>
Do they intend to reverse engineer the firmware binary in order to audit it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no0, they (afaik) plan to cooperate with modem / phone manuf to get hold of the modem firmware source
<pigeons>
i don't remember the blackphone architecture, does the modem share RAM with the main CPU?
<DocScrutinizer05>
unclear but very likely
<pigeons>
so, shannagins aren't that hard even if ther isn't backdoor()
<pigeons>
i imagine while their at it they should look at the dies etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
I once tried to find specs about their SoC, and I found it's at least supposed to be an integrated solution with application processor and modem in one package, no further info provided on exact implementation details#
<pigeons>
i also doubt they are a big enough customer to get any accomodations regarding source access for review
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, maybe s/package/chipset/
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, that might be another problem for them. But the main problem is: it's not feasible at all, it leads nowhere
<pigeons>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
as long as you don't have physical separation between modem and APE land, you can't audit anything
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need to know about your hardware, and that hardware has to be done right, or you're doomed
<DocScrutinizer05>
no sw audit whatsoever will be able to get around that hard fact
<DocScrutinizer05>
Zimmerman and friends obviously fell for the very common mistake all software devels are probe to fall for: considering hw as "just works, doesn't matter"
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/probe/prone/
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a depressingly common recurring approach to system architecture as done by software-only devels
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually my primary job to be an ambassador between hardware R&D and sw developers
<DocScrutinizer05>
my problems is to rise awareness of the need for such a moderator/ambassador first, since EE as well as sw-dev dpeartments tend to deny that there's *any* potential problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
the result is: blackphone etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
I literally can hear the echo of that conversation between Zimmerman and whoever was responsible to source the hw platform... Zimmerman: >>Nah, we can implement a secure OS on any arbitrary hw platform as long as we got the drivers and the CPU instruction set is supported by our toolchain. Just get us something smart and inexpensive please!<<
pagurus` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
herpderphurr has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
while hw devels: >>why should we implement a second ARM SoC with NAND and RAM and all, when we already got a 4 core ARM SoC and can simply dedicate one of the 4 cores to the modem stack for a less than 50% of BOM cost?<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
the result of this rationale can be found in almost 100% of all recent smartphones
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas this result only works as long as you're _not_ interested in security
herpderphurr has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
even when EE department uses dedicated modem chipset, still a shared RAM is a very convenient way to have highspeed data transport between radio and APE
<DocScrutinizer05>
the implications regarding security with such shared RAM architecture don't matter as long as you define the modem software as secure per se
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: humm ... muddiling up built and debian packages for your toolos ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
EE is well aware of those security implications, just they don't care
<DocScrutinizer05>
enyc: sorry?
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: you ased me a whiloe bakrk
<DocScrutinizer05>
I read that as "you asked me a while back" - yes, we sorted it
<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: you were having version conflict with kicad // kicad-common
<DocScrutinizer05>
"drag segment" acts weird as long as DRC enabled. Doesn't allow placing the segment to its original position
<DocScrutinizer05>
ctrl-LMB selecting a group of traces and components in PCB editor first pops up a requester to pick what to select and then instantly rotates the whole selected group 90° counter-clockwise and places it unselected. Pretty useless action
* DocScrutinizer05
feels KiCAD will give a pretty steep learning curve
<DocScrutinizer05>
"ratsnest only available in default canvas" - well I wonder what purpose are those canvases anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hope not much except different rendering methods, since OpenGL is prolly not available without a GFX accel
<DocScrutinizer05>
zooming in/out (mouse scrollwheel) centers darwing and mouse cursor to center of window, which is fine so far. What freaks me out is the fact that any minor mouse move after that makes mouse cursor jump back to where it originall been which is really unexpected and annoying
<DocScrutinizer05>
on the bright side: in schematics ctrl-LMB selecting a group and then dragging it works like it should (except the ctrl key shouldn't be needed)
<DocScrutinizer05>
however I can see how LMB grouping makes some sense for anything *except* fragging, since yoiu can RMB-context-menu select arbitrary actions like copy etc for the selected block
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/fragging/dragging/
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually this works quite nice, as does RMB on single components
<DocScrutinizer05>
no GFX performance issues detected so far, not the faintest
<DocScrutinizer05>
I agree this wins against eagle UI hands down
tsuggs has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
OT: now that's an interesting theory: Trump is the hearo of the 50% stupid americans, because of his completely embarrassingly stupid behavior
<DocScrutinizer05>
hero even
<DocScrutinizer05>
stupidity loves other stupidity which seems at least similar stupid but successful, so they got a role model for themselves
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the more stupid Trump acts, the 'deeper' down he gains sympathy
<DocScrutinizer05>
you'd think he already reached the bottom, eh?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or do they plan to allow chimps^H amoebas to register for voting now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: aiui your fped creates footprints fit for KiCad, right? so yozu must have a thorough understanding of that file format at least. Could you share some of your wisdom please?
<wpwrak>
note: fped uses the old .mod format, not the new s-expressions. to kicad it's more or less the same, it can process both
<wpwrak>
(opengl not working) this is bad: the push router exists only on the opengl canvas (new things tend to happen there, not in the legacy canvas).
<wpwrak>
in other news, i found a converter that produces somewhat usable results. still needs manual editing everywhere, but at least the output isn't outright trash. https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad
<wpwrak>
too early to tell if there are nasty surprises, though - ERC spits out LOTS of complaints, many caused by some things being done differently in eagle and kicad. so that needs clearing up first, before more serious issues could surface.
<wpwrak>
anyway, i'll give this a try for now, see where it leads. if it works, then it'll help us avoid the netlist comparison stage further down the road
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
meanwhile I created a single-footprint library file and looked into it: http://termbin.com/zrfx
<DocScrutinizer05>
and while looking at it I thought it's not too out of sight to have eagle export something that could get converted to this format
<wpwrak>
yes, that's the new format. the old one is slightly uglier, a bit like the eagle command syntax.
<wpwrak>
syntax is the least of the problems :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, prolly the semantics behind the syntax are
<DocScrutinizer05>
(opengl) that's indeed bad then, I need to find out if I could get OpenGL working on my workstation at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
in VM kicad simply freezes when you select OpenGL canvas
<DocScrutinizer05>
what bothers me most right now is the ubiquitous grid, which doesn't make too much sense for layout to me, also projects opened from examples seems to not care at all in layout about the grid, I couldn't do what I see been done in them
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW when I pick and drag a component, I probably couldn't place it to where it originally been since that's no raster grid snap position
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, confirmed. In eagle you press a qualifier key like shuft or ctrl or even alt (dunno) to ignore grid. didn't find any such feature in kicad
<wpwrak>
if you can't turn off the grid, you can just set it to a tiny value. but i like having a grid (e.g., 0.1 mm). keeps things a bit more orderly.
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.1mm might be way to coarse for BGAs with 0.4mm pitch
arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
arossdotme has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
which been the problem with eagle's autorouter since there I need to define a grid too and you can easily see how the rip-up router takes N^2 more steps and time for a 1/N grid pitch
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus my tests on autorouting took several days (literally) to complete
<DocScrutinizer05>
(turn off grid) for anything matching our mech contraints we also at least want a 0.05mm precision
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder why the heck the grid pitch and origin isn't stored in the kicad project files
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is absolutely mandatory
<wpwrak>
i think it's stored
<wpwrak>
ah, you're in the legacy canvas. that's why the grid bothers you. with the push router, traces more more freely
<wpwrak>
so for me the grid is mainly for mechanical and for component placement. both things where 0.1 mm are usually small enough.
<wpwrak>
s/more more/move more/ # but also in legacy mode you can go off the grid on the first and last segment of a trace.
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's start with dragging any arbitrary component and placing it off-grid
paulk-collins has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<DocScrutinizer05>
that coberter stuff looks mad useful. Do you consider joining the devel team and contact the project author "lachlan" (whoever that is)?
<wpwrak>
seems that you can't get rid of the grid. in any case, there's an underlying "grid" in the internal integer coordinate system unit. 1 nm, i think.
<DocScrutinizer05>
converter*
<wpwrak>
no, i just run the thing :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a grid underlying reality ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc it's somehow attributed to a guy called Heisenberg
<wpwrak>
not planck ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wasn't sure, possibly Plank, yeah
arossdotme has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
<MonkeyofDoom>
it isn't actually a grid
<DocScrutinizer05>
prove it! ;-P
<wpwrak>
MonkeyofDoom: that's what they want you to believe ;-)
arossdotme has joined #neo900
<MonkeyofDoom>
it's a limit of measurability but there are no defined axes
<MonkeyofDoom>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
I say it's a grid until you prove me wrong
<DocScrutinizer05>
funny enough it seems the grid is even 4 dimensional, applying to time as well
<MonkeyofDoom>
it's more like the width of a convolution kernel (you can't see any features smaller than it) than a grid of discrete spaces
<DocScrutinizer05>
and anyway I recently heard serious scientists say quantum mechanics are not as unpredictable and immutable as everybody thought. They clainmed they seen a reduction in radioactive decay of isotopes during a solar storm
<wpwrak>
MonkeyofDoom: shush ! now you're making it too mathematical
<MonkeyofDoom>
haha ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they been honest
<DocScrutinizer05>
might have been a hoax, but didn't sound like one by the way it was presented
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: did you run into these "serious scientists" at a pub, at the end of a night of heavy drinking ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, in TV, a BBC report "mysteries of universe"
<DocScrutinizer05>
it was only a 'sidenote' among many stuff about multiverse and other 'bleeding edge' stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
they also claimed a particularly empty spot in our universe (which allegedly shouldn't be there) was possibly caused by effects of a neighbor universe
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course there may be a bazillion dirt effects from anything incl the blamed sun activity wthat may have caused errors in the instruments rather than an actual deviation in decay rate
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe it's not about decay rate but about direction of emissions from such decay, something faintly similar to LASER effect
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway interesting
<DocScrutinizer05>
given how little noise been heard about it, it might also be an april's fool, or it been ignored by everybody since 'it's not possible that this is real'
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's a bit of the problem these days: measurements are so sensitive these days that a butterfly that had a cough in andromeda can screw up your results
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, only noticed after posting the URL http://creation.com/
<wpwrak>
kinda suspicious :)
<atk>
not at all suspicions
<atk>
website is totally just focused on the creation of carbon nano tubes
<atk>
hence the name :P
<wpwrak>
"This unique quarterly 56-page full-color family magazine gives God the glory, refutes evolution, and gives you the answers to defend your faith and uphold the true history of the world found in Genesis."
<wpwrak>
atk: seems to fit ;-)
<atk>
the god of carbon nano-tubes
<atk>
and the evolution of carbon nano-tubes
<atk>
the god of carbon nano-tubes obviously is man
<DocScrutinizer05>
Jenkins and Fischbach suggest that the changes in the decay rates are due to interactions with solar neutrinos, nearly weightless particles created by nuclear reactions within the sun's core that travel almost at the speed of light.
<DocScrutinizer05>
"We haven't known the solar neutrino to interact significantly with anything, but it fits with the evidence we've gathered as the likely source of these fluctuations," he [Jenkins] said. "So, what we're suggesting is that something that can't interact with anything is changing something that can't be changed."
<DocScrutinizer05>
The Purdue team has ruled out the possibility of experimental error or an environmental influence on the detection systems that track the rate of decay as being responsible for the fluctuations and published a series of papers in the journals Astroparticle Physics, Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research, and Space Science Reviews.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter sounds way too elaborate and not catchy enough to be a hoax / april's fool
<DocScrutinizer05>
also too careful with drawing any conclusion
pagurus has joined #neo900
<wpwrak>
i guess everyone is a bit more careful after those ftl neutrinos :)
<wpwrak>
btw, i think it may be better to use the daily build instead of the 4.0 ppa. i've been using the daily build for a long time already and never had trouble. and even if it should blow up some day, we can always go back to the previous version.
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we should redo the building process with that one?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pozzled about this site not providing any kicad package older than 19h
<DocScrutinizer05>
except of 0.201507230931+5980~23~ubuntu14.10.1 which is js-reynaud (2015-07-23)
<wpwrak>
yes, i guess they clean out old versions aggressively
<wpwrak>
but afaik, whatever we install ends up cached locally. thus going back isn't that hard. and in any case, if there's a major problem, it'll probably get fixed soonish. people on #kicad seem to be fairly alert :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
err I don't plan to do daily builds
<wpwrak>
yeah, that'll help to keep the rate of surprises down, too :) but it's better to be close to mainline development. so if something crops up and it gets fixed upstream, we'll have it quickly.
<wpwrak>
e.g., i did a bit of nudging about command-line friendly schematics to ps/pdf generation. let's see if anything comes out of it :)
<wpwrak>
(that's the patches wolfgang made some years ago that never found their way into kicad mainline. among other nice things, with those patches (well, the capability to generate ps/pdf), we had a visual change log for schematics.)