00:01
<
rqou >
just watched the dc26 talk by the lavabit guy about tamperproofing a server
00:01
<
rqou >
unfortunately it doesn't seem to be all that good
00:02
<
rqou >
feels really hacky and ad-hoc
00:12
<
awygle >
~*~technology~*~
00:18
<
felix_ >
finally got a new trace; updated the file at the old url
00:19
<
felix_ >
the protocol decoder still doesn't like it; probably my very improvised analog frontend is too bad
00:20
<
felix_ >
oh and sometimes pulseview doesn't crash during the recording, but when i add a protocol decoder
00:22
<
whitequark >
still doesn't look right :/
00:28
<
felix_ >
meh. then probably the improvised frontend doesn't work (i expected that the baud rate is maybe 100khz though...)
00:30
<
whitequark >
it's over 300 kbps
00:31
<
whitequark >
50 mhz is because the PD decoder is glitchy on smaller rates, not sure why
00:40
<
whitequark >
what comparator?
00:40
<
felix_ >
a lm324n from st
00:41
<
felix_ >
signal on the non-inverting input, reference on the inverting one
00:42
<
whitequark >
1 MHz...
00:42
<
felix_ >
yeah, a proper comparator would be much better, but i only found that opamp. but plenty of them...
00:42
<
whitequark >
I'm using an attiny as a comparator
00:42
<
whitequark >
have one?
00:43
<
whitequark >
1 MHz probably not enough
00:43
<
whitequark >
actually not enough for sure
00:44
<
felix_ >
uh, i'm not sure if i have any attiny left that isn't in a qfn pckage
00:45
<
gruetzkopf >
should be portable to most 8bit avr?
00:45
<
whitequark >
basically yes
00:45
<
whitequark >
but i have assembly for 13a already
00:47
<
rqou >
did anybody here know that faxes can have color?
00:48
<
Bike >
no, but it doesn't seem surprising?
00:49
<
rqou >
guess how it works
00:49
<
felix_ >
not before the defcon talk
00:49
<
rqou >
it sends a JPEG file
00:56
<
rqou >
oh lolol the team also stuck EternalBlue into their exploit fax
00:57
<
awygle >
>> "exploit fax"
00:57
<
awygle >
that's upsetting just conceptually
00:59
<
whitequark >
wtf is exploit fax
01:00
<
rqou >
oh, this research team managed to get arbitrary code exec on an hp all-in-one print/scan/fax machine by sending a fax to it
01:00
<
Bike >
through a jpeg, not postscript or whatever? neat
01:00
<
rqou >
through a jpeg with an oversized DCT(?) table
01:01
<
awygle >
fuckin hell, so many things about that are wrong
01:01
<
Bike >
discrete cosine transform?
01:01
<
rqou >
which is then wrapped up in all the fax/modem junk to finally be sent over a phone line
01:01
<
awygle >
that is what jpegs use yes
01:01
<
Bike >
black faxes just weren't enough, huh.
01:02
<
rqou >
so yeah tldr you can probably wardial people and drop eternalblue into their internal networks
01:02
<
Bike >
i wonder if there's a patching infrastructure for fax machines...
01:03
<
rqou >
yeah, you can update the firmware
01:03
<
rqou >
they talked about that too
01:03
<
rqou >
it comes in a PCL file
01:03
<
rqou >
and you print it
01:05
<
Bike >
you mean you like, send the command file to a printer, and that upgrades the printer
01:05
<
Bike >
not that it actually produces a piece of paper with ink corresponding to the firmware
01:06
<
Bike >
juuuuust checkin.
01:10
<
gruetzkopf >
rqou: look up "group 4 fax"
01:10
<
gruetzkopf >
one of the great things voip killed
01:11
<
gruetzkopf >
and firmware-update-via-word-document is a well-known technique
01:11
<
rqou >
can we just stop using shitty technologies?
01:11
<
Bike >
yeah, i mean, if you have one control language already, why add another one just for firmware updates
01:12
<
pie_ >
i dont seen anything
*inherently* wrong with updating-via-print?
01:12
<
rqou >
yeah i guess it's kinda ok
01:12
<
pie_ >
i mean sure it sounds funny :D
01:12
<
Bike >
i mean if you can fax someone a firmware update that might be an issue, but jpegs seem okay other than the exploit deal.
01:13
<
whitequark >
so lets say i send your company an invoice
01:13
<
rqou >
the LUFA guy even did it as a proof of concept
01:13
<
pie_ >
well youd hope it takes signed updates, but eh
01:13
<
rqou >
no you can't fax the firmware update
01:13
<
pie_ >
whitequark, hmmmm
01:13
<
rqou >
has to come from the PCL "printer" side
01:14
<
whitequark >
by email
01:14
<
whitequark >
and they print it
01:14
<
pie_ >
sounds like some dank-ass social engineering material
01:14
<
awygle >
in-band signaling in general just kind of icky
01:14
<
pie_ >
(apply xkcd hyphen migration)
01:14
<
gruetzkopf >
and it changes the printer fw to always print a digit more on my invoices total
01:15
<
Bike >
advanced move: doing legit contract work, sending an invoice, and choosing the prices to make shellcode
01:15
<
pie_ >
gruetzkopf, you mean less
01:15
<
rqou >
gruetzkopf: nah, you just have to use JBIG compression for that :P
01:15
<
gruetzkopf >
that was a fun c3 talk
01:15
<
rqou >
also it needs special PCL commands to update firmware
01:15
<
gruetzkopf >
"don't trust a scan you didn't falsify yourself"
01:16
<
rqou >
i don't think you can easily put it in a PDF
01:16
<
gruetzkopf >
other printers to PS
01:16
<
gruetzkopf >
pie_: there's the german c3 talk, he also gave it in english a while later. choose one?
01:17
<
pie_ >
gruetzkopf, subtitels work
01:17
<
pie_ >
*subtitles would be fine for me
01:18
<
felix_ >
dug through my box of project leftovers; didn't have any avrs or fast comparators in there. can have a look tomorrow if there are some avrs left at the local hackerspace; iirc i dropped maybe 100 avrs there a while ago
01:19
<
felix_ >
or just use an fpga board with lvds input buffers...
01:20
<
felix_ >
anyway, i really should go home now; already 2h later than i thought
01:22
<
pie_ >
rqou, source for this fax thing?
01:23
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02:14
<
sorear >
position: firmware updates you scan would be more fun
02:15
<
pie_ >
for some value of fun xD
02:17
<
whitequark >
sorear: i've heard you can boot from a scsi scanner
02:17
<
whitequark >
havent verified personally
02:21
<
pie_ >
truecrypt boot sector in a book
02:34
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03:38
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04:19
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04:26
<
whitequark >
hm wheres azonenberg
04:47
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05:14
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05:26
* pie_
goes to check behing the 1990's under construction gifs
05:30
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05:45
<
rqou >
woot new nurdrage and new clickspring
05:49
<
whitequark >
rqou: not my cat technically
05:49
<
whitequark >
cats are their own
05:51
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: lol
05:51
<
azonenberg_work >
also, i gave up and bit the bullet
05:51
<
azonenberg_work >
Bought a copy of ASME B107.4
05:52
<
azonenberg_work >
"Driving and Spindle Ends for Portable Hand, Impact, Air and Electric Tools (Percussion Tools Excluded)"
05:52
<
azonenberg_work >
$40 for a DRM'd PDF
05:52
<
rqou >
crack and sci-hub it? :P
05:52
<
azonenberg_work >
i couldnt find the mechanical drawing i needed anywhere
05:52
<
azonenberg_work >
But now i have dimensions for standard hex socket drives
05:52
<
rqou >
post a solvespace file?
05:52
<
rqou >
dimensions aren't copyrightable :P
05:52
<
azonenberg_work >
I'm not going to crack it or scihub it, but i will be sharing the SLVS for my particular tool
05:54
<
rqou >
seriously how is the clickspring guy so good at making things entirely by hand with no cnc at all?
05:55
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: so question for you
05:55
<
azonenberg_work >
re solvespace
05:55
<
azonenberg_work >
I have a hexagonal shaft that i made by extruding a 2D sketch along an axis
05:56
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: my contact says he'll be able to look at this monday and then quote
05:56
<
azonenberg_work >
I want to make a toroidal cutout in it
05:56
<
azonenberg_work >
see right side of the part
05:56
<
azonenberg_work >
How would i do that?
05:57
<
azonenberg_work >
I'm thinking create a plane X distance from the end of the shank
05:57
<
azonenberg_work >
then another perpendicular plane containing a circle
05:57
<
azonenberg_work >
rotate that about the axis of the shaft and do that as a negative operation?
05:58
<
rqou >
sounds reasonable
05:58
<
rqou >
but idk, i'm not a mechanical engineer
05:58
<
whitequark >
rqou: yeah
05:59
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: yeah
06:00
<
azonenberg_work >
oh wait it gets more fun
06:00
<
azonenberg_work >
its not a circular cutout
06:00
<
azonenberg_work >
it's rounded edges then the middle is flat
06:00
<
azonenberg_work >
so i have to do two arcs and a segment
06:20
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06:22
<
rqou >
i thought birbs are also supposed to be ridiculously smart
06:22
<
pie_ >
whitequark just wants something closer to catgirls, even if they are still furry
06:22
<
rqou >
i thought we've been over this many times already about how to give humans cat ears? :P
06:27
<
pie_ >
whitequark is going at it from both directions
06:29
<
whitequark >
lies im not a furry
06:30
<
whitequark >
oh thats not what you said
06:35
<
rqou >
sooo, when are we going to actually work on ##opencatgirs? :P
06:37
<
rqou >
or this what ##whitequark is for? :P :P
06:38
<
pie_ >
put on the cat ears shinji
06:43
<
rqou >
oh btw pie_ ##whitequark is apparently an actual thing
06:43
<
rqou >
> Topic for ##whitequark is: non-institutional medical research
06:43
<
whitequark >
oh you didnt know
06:44
<
rqou >
i mean, i'm in the channel but pie_ isn't
06:44
<
rqou >
so maybe we can move our "how 2 catgirl" jokes there instead :P
06:44
<
pie_ >
and make ##openfpga lose from its spirit?....eh, why not :P
06:45
<
whitequark >
its not fun unless youre invading other channels!!
06:46
<
whitequark >
seven nation catgirl army!
06:46
<
rqou >
can catboys join this army too? :P :P
06:48
<
rqou >
awesome nya~
06:49
<
pie_ >
tfw your pet gtes a bigger part of the room than you do
06:49
<
rqou >
wait pie_ do you actually have a cat?
06:49
<
pie_ >
no i was just joking about the previous
06:50
<
pie_ >
and yesterday
06:51
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: oh joy so the model i sent you is totally busted
06:51
<
azonenberg_work >
somehow i had dimensions set to inches
06:51
<
azonenberg_work >
but i did all the numbers in mm
06:51
<
azonenberg_work >
how can i fix that?
06:51
<
whitequark >
i fucking KNEW
06:51
<
whitequark >
i literally thought about that when looking at it
06:52
<
whitequark >
just had a hunch
06:52
<
rqou >
good thing you weren't launching a mars probe :P
06:52
<
azonenberg_work >
Can i just edit a flag in the SLVS and make it recalculate?
06:52
<
azonenberg_work >
or does it always use metric internally?
06:52
<
whitequark >
no it always uses metric internally
06:52
<
pie_ >
azonenberg_work, crash any satellites lately?
06:52
<
pie_ >
oh rqou already made the joke :(
06:52
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: you can double click on any dimension and add "/25.4"
06:52
<
whitequark >
that will divide
06:53
<
azonenberg_work >
do i have to do that on every dimensoin or is there a 'scale all constraints' capability?
06:54
<
pie_ >
sounds like "is there an 'i accidentally the units' feature"
06:54
<
azonenberg_work >
exactly
06:54
<
azonenberg_work >
i have no idea why it defaulted to inches
06:55
<
azonenberg_work >
but yeah :p
06:58
<
whitequark >
i think it defaults to mm?
06:59
<
whitequark >
it defaults to mm
06:59
<
whitequark >
even though it was written by an american originally
06:59
<
azonenberg_work >
huh
07:05
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07:08
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: ok so i fixed that but i have another issue
07:08
<
azonenberg_work >
the square shaft is now giving me a big red outline on one of the polygons
07:08
<
azonenberg_work >
What causes that and how do i fix it?
07:11
<
whitequark >
ah you found the most annoying bug in solvespace
07:11
<
azonenberg_work >
i fixed it by slightly changing the sketch but not sure how
07:13
<
whitequark >
the nurbs backend isnt fully reliable
07:13
<
pie_ >
bad topology?
07:13
<
whitequark >
sometimes it breaks, almost always with rotations
07:13
<
azonenberg_work >
What can i do about it?
07:14
<
rqou >
according to Fiora, so does commercial cad software :P
07:14
<
azonenberg_work >
is there any workaround?
07:14
<
rqou >
seriously how are cosplay props so hard on the solvers?
07:15
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: workarounds:
07:16
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark, rqou: i'm trying to rotate this cutout around the central shaft axis
07:16
<
whitequark >
either convert nurbs to mesh
07:16
<
azonenberg_work >
subtractively
07:16
<
whitequark >
there's a checkbox for it in the group properties
07:16
<
azonenberg_work >
Does that break STEP export?
07:16
<
azonenberg_work >
because it seems to
07:16
<
whitequark >
unfortunately
07:16
<
whitequark >
the other workaround is to permute the sketch slightly
07:17
<
whitequark >
if you get out of the extrema where the solver gets stuck
07:17
<
whitequark >
then it usually does fine
07:17
<
whitequark >
just break symmetry
07:18
<
azonenberg_work >
any ideas what to do with this sketch?
07:19
<
whitequark >
try making it slightly deeper
07:20
<
azonenberg_work >
So not tangent to the surface?
07:20
<
whitequark >
yo uwant to avoid any coincident surfaces
07:20
<
whitequark >
even invisible ones
07:20
<
azonenberg_work >
Yeah i broke things previously by having two collinear line segments
07:20
<
azonenberg_work >
that got extruded into what would have become a single flat edge
07:21
<
azonenberg_work >
How about where the arcs hit the line segment
07:21
<
azonenberg_work >
would that be an issue?
07:22
<
whitequark >
yes I think
07:22
<
azonenberg_work >
how would you suggest fixing that?
07:22
<
azonenberg_work >
Replace the arcs with circles, extrude those
07:22
<
azonenberg_work >
then do a separate rectangular extrusion on top of that?
07:23
<
whitequark >
maybe just move the arc endpoints slightly deeper?
07:23
<
rqou >
so uh, what does it take to fix this for real?
07:24
<
whitequark >
rqou: lots of cash
07:25
<
whitequark >
i dont understand computer graphics at all
07:25
<
whitequark >
so i need to hire someone who does
07:25
<
rqou >
not eggleroy/bofh?
07:26
<
whitequark >
i dont think so no
07:26
<
whitequark >
egg doesnt know this part of cg
07:26
<
whitequark >
bofh is... bofh
07:26
<
whitequark >
he owes me some bidi code in solvespace for two years
07:30
jcarpenter2 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:39
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: so, experimentally
07:39
<
azonenberg_work >
i need to recess the groove 0.5 mm or more into the shaft
07:39
<
azonenberg_work >
beyond where it should be
07:39
<
azonenberg_work >
for the solver to work
07:39
<
azonenberg_work >
That's pretty significant
07:40
<
azonenberg_work >
i think it would still fit, and the torques involved are low enough i dont think it would damage the tool
07:40
<
azonenberg_work >
but still... not thrilled
07:40
<
whitequark >
sorry, not solver
07:40
<
whitequark >
geometric kernel
07:40
<
whitequark >
solver is fine
07:41
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: yes, i agree
07:41
<
azonenberg_work >
and how do i hide all of the construction lines in extruded geometry?
07:41
<
whitequark >
this is probably the major issue with solvespace
07:41
<
whitequark >
click on the group
07:41
<
whitequark >
checkbox to the left
07:41
<
whitequark >
in group list
07:43
<
azonenberg_work >
ah ok
07:43
<
azonenberg_work >
i thought that hid the geometry
07:43
<
azonenberg_work >
not just the construction stuff
07:44
<
whitequark >
it hides entities in the group
07:44
<
azonenberg_work >
How's the final design look?
07:45
<
whitequark >
sure seems fine
07:46
<
azonenberg_work >
Will re-send to you in a bit
07:46
<
azonenberg_work >
i dont need a 75 inch long tool bit :p
07:46
<
rqou >
hmm the internal hexagon seems trickier but the rest is pretty simple to make on just a manual mill
07:47
<
azonenberg_work >
rqou: the internal hexagon isnt even super crucial
07:47
<
azonenberg_work >
the two parallel flats are probably enough to turn the nut
07:48
<
azonenberg_work >
you could probably get away with just using an endmill and rounding it
07:48
<
rqou >
hmm if the corners don't have to be sharp this whole thing should be pretty trivial to make
07:48
<
azonenberg_work >
This is a nominal design before any DFM
07:48
<
azonenberg_work >
yeah the chamfers are mostly cosmetic
07:48
<
azonenberg_work >
you could do them by hand with a file
07:48
<
rqou >
i really want a home machine shop lol
07:49
<
azonenberg_work >
the hex piece at the end needs to be actually hexagonal
07:49
<
rqou >
too many toys, too little time
07:49
<
rqou >
yeah but that's much easier
07:49
<
azonenberg_work >
and the little cutout in there is probably best done by putting the whole tool in a lathe
07:49
<
azonenberg_work >
But you might be able to do it with a mill and a rotary work holder for a mill
07:49
<
azonenberg_work >
put the endmill right next to the shaft, move it in slightly
07:49
<
azonenberg_work >
then rotate the workpiece
07:49
<
rqou >
i would just make this whole tool in multiple pieces and join them together if i were making it
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
in that case you could use standard bar stock
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
for the hex piece
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
I just dont know how you'd join it
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
really tiny welds?
07:50
<
whitequark >
oh sure
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
You'd need two
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
since the shaft is subject to torque
07:50
<
rqou >
sure whatever
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
one would just loosen
07:50
<
rqou >
just use two
07:50
<
azonenberg_work >
Into a 1/4" diameter shaft?
07:51
<
whitequark >
my subcontractor can weld that easily
07:51
<
azonenberg_work >
or i guess you could do them setscrew style
07:51
<
whitequark >
if it's even necessary
07:51
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: yeah i dont care about the exact process
07:51
<
azonenberg_work >
The main critical dimensions are the wrench flat spacing
07:51
<
azonenberg_work >
the hexagonal shank diameter
07:51
<
azonenberg_work >
and the placement of the retaining groove
07:52
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: he once welded me a 1/4" tube to a swagelok valve
07:52
<
whitequark >
that had the wrong kind of flange
07:52
<
azonenberg_work >
all of those dimensions are "critical" in terms of maybe 50-100 um of slop? :p
07:52
<
azonenberg_work >
maybe not quite that much
07:52
<
azonenberg_work >
but 10-20 um of tolerance even would probably work
07:52
<
rqou >
hmm 50 um ~= 2 mil
07:53
<
rqou >
i bet even i could make this lol
07:53
<
azonenberg_work >
Then i want fairly high collinearity between the wrench area and the hex drive shaft but even 200-300um would be no big deal thre
07:53
<
whitequark >
1 thou
07:53
<
whitequark >
is normal tolerance
07:53
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: that is more than adequate
07:53
<
whitequark >
placement of retaining grove is critical by which axis?
07:54
<
azonenberg_work >
If the groove is too far from the end of the shaft it wont fit in the tool
07:54
<
azonenberg_work >
If too close it will have a slightly more wobbly fit but be fine
07:54
<
azonenberg_work >
+/- 25 um is more than adequate though
07:55
<
azonenberg_work >
then the shank is specified as 6.3 - 6.35 so my cad has 6.325
07:55
<
azonenberg_work >
Which means a 1 thou tolerance puts me exactly within the standard's tolerance band
07:55
<
azonenberg_work >
rqou: yes i think i could make it too
07:56
<
azonenberg_work >
if i had a machine shop which i do not
07:57
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: also my other requirement is 3xx stainless, i think i mentioned that to you
07:57
<
azonenberg_work >
Since it will be sitting around in the lab, getting fingerprint oils on it, etc i want something i dont have to worry about rust on
07:57
<
rqou >
not aluminum?
07:57
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: yeah sure 316L
07:57
<
whitequark >
rqou: uh
07:57
<
whitequark >
macbooks dissolve in sweat
07:57
<
rqou >
wait really?
07:58
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: 316 or 304 are both acceptable, or anything else in the same basic family
07:58
<
whitequark >
also alu has this shitty feel
07:58
<
whitequark >
ok, 3xx
07:58
<
whitequark >
easily
07:59
<
whitequark >
rqou: yes they do
07:59
<
whitequark >
hence i got a carbon fiber laptop
07:59
<
rqou >
at $FANCY_SCHOOL basically anything the ME students made that was metal was aluminum 6061-T6
07:59
<
whitequark >
well that and Y capacitors
07:59
<
whitequark >
its cheap
07:59
<
azonenberg_work >
yeah its cheap and easy to machine
07:59
<
azonenberg_work >
so great training material
07:59
<
whitequark >
and fairly easy to work with
07:59
<
whitequark >
worse than like brass or steel
07:59
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: unless you need to weld it
08:00
<
whitequark >
but better than 316
08:00
<
azonenberg_work >
then, have fun
08:00
<
whitequark >
my subcontractor can weld you basically anything
08:00
<
whitequark >
that can be welded with tig
08:01
<
whitequark >
most beautiful damn welds i have seen in my life
08:01
<
whitequark >
how the fuck he does it, no idea
08:02
<
whitequark >
but he welds stainless foil like you or me can write a libusb based driver
08:02
<
whitequark >
or something
08:02
<
azonenberg_work >
crazy russian welder?
08:02
<
whitequark >
before i met him i havent even realized some of these things CAN be welded
08:03
<
whitequark >
yes basically
08:03
<
whitequark >
and he's like "oh yeah 300 micron foil nbd"
08:03
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: related, i had a crazy idea i've wanted to try for a while
08:03
<
whitequark >
like what the fuck, did you sell your soul to satan
08:03
<
azonenberg_work >
i experimented with it a long time ago on some scrap PCBs but i dont think i had the oomph for it
08:03
<
azonenberg_work >
And it's totally useless for any practical purpose
08:03
<
azonenberg_work >
but... MIG soldering :p
08:03
<
azonenberg_work >
ground the pcb trace, supply power to your reel of solder
08:04
<
whitequark >
he could rake in millions in the US and instead he lives in some crappy moscow suburb, i dunno
08:04
<
pie_ >
whitequark, for vodka? :PP
08:04
<
azonenberg_work >
i got it to stick but it didnt make good joints, the pcb didnt get hot enough
08:04
<
rqou >
do i need to go move to russia or hk? :P
08:04
<
pie_ >
for vodka and welds
08:04
<
whitequark >
pie_: dont think he drinks
08:04
<
whitequark >
well not a lot definitely
08:04
<
pie_ >
why drink when you can relax with HOT WELDS
08:04
<
pie_ >
HOT WELDS NEAR YOU
08:04
<
whitequark >
just your regular ass family guy
08:04
<
whitequark >
that does incredible welds
08:05
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: meanwhile, the genius of a TA who "taught me to weld" in my RPI shop class
08:05
<
azonenberg_work >
forgot to turn the shielding gas tank on
08:05
<
azonenberg_work >
my first time
08:05
<
whitequark >
incredible
08:05
<
azonenberg_work >
I was wondering why it was sparking everywhere and everything looked all rusty
08:05
<
pie_ >
whitequark, sell his work to the us, give him loads of kash
08:05
<
whitequark >
pie_: well what am i doing right now?
08:06
<
whitequark >
azonenberg_work: i thought this only happens in jokes on /r/welding
08:06
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: no, it happened in an RPI classroom
08:06
<
azonenberg_work >
the head instructor was really good
08:06
<
whitequark >
did i ever say i wanted to go to rpi? scratch that
08:06
<
azonenberg_work >
the TAs ranged from stellar to awful
08:07
<
rqou >
whitequark: no $FANCY_SCHOOL for you? :P
08:07
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: you still dont want to go to rpi :p
08:07
<
azonenberg_work >
The president is an authoritarian lunatic with terrible financial sense
08:07
<
whitequark >
rqou: why would i want that other than for nepotism
08:08
<
azonenberg_work >
Who is driving the school into debt while systematically disenfranchising the students and faculty
08:08
<
pie_ >
we should start our own fancy school with FPGAs and WELDING
08:08
<
whitequark >
colossal waste of money
08:08
<
rqou >
i mean, it's not a bad school
08:08
<
whitequark >
for a piece of paper
08:08
<
whitequark >
not for what it costs
08:08
<
whitequark >
im not sure i would go to $FANCY_SCHOOL even for free
08:08
<
rqou >
RPI is also nice an $$$$
08:08
<
whitequark >
yes that is true
08:08
<
whitequark >
but consider
08:08
<
azonenberg_work >
whitequark: i learned a ton
*while an RPI student*
08:08
<
azonenberg_work >
very little in the classroom
08:09
<
pie_ >
pff classrooms are just a formality
08:09
<
azonenberg_work >
maybe 5-10% of what i use at work or in my own projects on a daily basis came out of a classroom
08:09
<
azonenberg_work >
if that
08:09
<
whitequark >
youre smart but youre like, regular programmer guy with decent hardware skills or something. tons of these
08:09
<
whitequark >
and then theres azonenberg
08:09
<
whitequark >
hence rpi >> $FANCY_SCHOOL
08:09
<
azonenberg_work >
i learned almost all of the interesting things i do on my own
08:09
<
pie_ >
theres channels, and then theres ##openfpga
08:09
* pie_
dials back the commentary and tries to get back to work
08:10
* azonenberg_work
is waiting on a portscan of $CLIENT's network to finish so he knows what to try pwning
08:10
<
azonenberg_work >
Might as well hang out on irc in the meantime :p
08:10
<
rqou >
just drop eternalblue :P
08:10
<
azonenberg_work >
rqou: but what if it's a linux box?
08:10
<
rqou >
shellshock+futex? :P
08:11
<
azonenberg_work >
also ROE for this test is no active exploitation
08:11
<
azonenberg_work >
So i get to try and find bugs wihtout actually using them
08:11
<
azonenberg_work >
which is often harder than actually throwing a sploit and seeing if it sticks
08:11
<
azonenberg_work >
But clients tend to complain when you do that to their production network
08:12
<
rqou >
meanwhile $WORK had a hilarious situation where they had IDS rules for detecting portscans from the vpn to <redacted>
08:12
<
rqou >
but couldn't detect any of the actual exploitation we did :P
08:12
<
azonenberg_work >
rqou: lol
08:12
<
azonenberg_work >
Well these guys are making me do my testing over the weekend and second-shift hours during the work week
08:12
<
azonenberg_work >
specifically to avoid the slightest chance of downtime whatsoever during business hours
08:13
<
rqou >
ah so not like us where we actually broke things :P
08:13
<
azonenberg_work >
so it's very much analytical work being as non-disturbing as possible
08:13
<
azonenberg_work >
I love such tests
08:13
<
azonenberg_work >
But this one is kid-gloves mode
08:13
<
pie_ >
time to write an auto tool
08:13
<
rqou >
we broke something right before the entire team left for hacker summer camp :P
08:14
<
pie_ >
so, ironically, im about to (hopefully) get a job where im going to get funneled into microarchitectural exploitation...
08:14
<
pie_ >
well job/internship
08:15
<
pie_ >
its a pretty new lab though and we probably dont have access to NDA stuff
08:15
<
pie_ >
so dont think of anything fancy
08:15
<
pie_ >
well "lab" (probably just software side stuff? idk)
08:16
<
pie_ >
i dont really know anything yet, but man its gonna be pretty weird
08:16
<
azonenberg_work >
ooh shiny
08:16
<
azonenberg_work >
any idea what architectures?
08:16
<
pie_ >
i never really bothered looking into spectre/etc stuff since i had other interests
08:16
<
rqou >
the gift that keeps on giving :P
08:16
<
pie_ >
yeah probaby mainstream stuff, also $small_company (afaik)
08:16
<
pie_ >
i mean its a small secu company
08:17
<
azonenberg_work >
ah cool
08:17
* azonenberg_work
wonders if $dayjob is doing any such work
08:17
<
pie_ >
i really hope it goes through
08:17
<
azonenberg_work >
i probably would have heard of it if we were
08:17
<
pie_ >
azonenberg_work, well i mean you're not THAT far from it with your close to the hardware stuff :P
08:18
<
pie_ >
though my hunch is that this is going to be "very practical stuff" so might not actually be cutting edge research or whatever
08:18
<
pie_ >
i mean unless finding exploits in enterprise applications is cutting edge research
08:18
<
pie_ >
tl;dr: a friend set me up, im not against this, but i have no idea whats going on yet :D
08:19
<
pie_ >
basically i just wanted to bring it up because i think theres a bunch of people doing cool hardware stuff in here
08:19
<
pie_ >
even if its not quite this
08:20
<
pie_ >
i guess i should start reading the papers but right now im yak shaving on trying to figure out how to do DVCS for node graphs, because linear undo is dumb >_>
08:20
<
rqou >
i really need to get back and do more hardware stuff
08:21
<
rqou >
but for various reasons getting "back into the groove" is hard
08:22
<
pie_ >
jn__, hypothetical $pieDA_pro feature ^
08:23
<
pie_ >
dataflow thing for reverse engineering pipeline
08:23
<
pie_ >
but im a noob
08:24
<
pie_ >
and irc too much instead of thinking
08:26
<
rqou >
btw whitequark can we turn this into ##openfitness again? :P
08:27
<
whitequark >
did we turn it into ##openfitness?
08:27
<
rqou >
supplementing vitamin d3 like you suggested seems to help quite a bit
08:27
<
whitequark >
really?
08:27
<
rqou >
but doesn't seem to fix everything
08:28
<
pie_ >
i heard people really underdose vitamin d
08:28
<
rqou >
yeah, this was literally the previous ##openfitness discussion
08:28
<
rqou >
actually, rephrasing
08:28
<
whitequark >
what does it not fix for you?
08:28
<
pie_ >
is it safe to take vitamin d without a known deficiency
08:29
<
rqou >
supplementing d3 seems to make me overall feel better but nothing was really "fixed"
08:29
<
whitequark >
pie_: yes basically
08:29
<
whitequark >
just dont do it too much
08:30
<
pie_ >
i dont take supplements regularly but i do pop some when i remember, because theres no way i get all i need, and i kind of ad-hoc prevent any overdoses probably :P
08:30
<
pie_ >
basically horribly unscientific but probably better than not
08:30
<
pie_ >
thats not to be understood as multiple of the same supplement at once
08:32
<
rqou >
so whitequark: any suggestions for fixing a really fucking awful sleep cycle?
08:32
<
whitequark >
rqou: meltaonin
08:32
<
whitequark >
but like, 0.3mg, not the massive doses they sell
08:33
<
rqou >
hmm, but how should i effectively use it in my case?
08:33
<
rqou >
basically my current schedule is
08:33
<
rqou >
get up way too fucking late (like 10am) despite having a huge string of alarms starting at like 9am
08:33
<
rqou >
during the workweek
08:33
<
rqou >
and then getting up at like 4pm on weekends
08:34
<
rqou >
and then going to bed at like 3am despite not really getting anything useful done
08:35
<
whitequark >
well take it 1-2 hours before a proper sleep time
08:35
<
rqou >
what would be a good "target" sleep cycle?
08:35
<
whitequark >
2300-0800?
08:36
<
rqou >
hmm definitely way too early for me lol
08:36
<
rqou >
i'm not a morning person
08:36
<
whitequark >
0000-0900
08:37
<
pie_ >
very good material afaict
08:37
<
rqou >
as a student i usually did something like 0200-0930
08:37
<
pie_ >
rqou, probably read the above
08:38
<
rqou >
but now that i'm not a student i somehow can't really keep that schedule very well
08:38
<
pie_ >
somehow i can do everything except keep normal daytime hours
08:39
<
pie_ >
like ive had periods where i would wake up at 2am and go to bed at like 6 or something
08:39
<
rqou >
i had periods when i was a student where i basically did biphasic sleep
08:39
<
rqou >
but that doesn't fit well with having a "real job"
08:40
<
rqou >
whitequark: is 9 hours of sleep really the recommended amount?
08:41
<
whitequark >
rqou: theres no real recommended amount
08:41
<
whitequark >
just sleep however much you need
08:41
<
whitequark >
its not worth doing sleep deprivation unless youre like, severely depressed
08:43
<
rqou >
so 0200-0930 worked pretty well when i was a student; why am i having so much trouble keeping to that now?
08:43
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08:44
<
whitequark >
you're older and you probably have less constraints
08:44
<
rqou >
not that much older lol
08:45
<
whitequark >
well, life drains from you drop by drop
08:46
<
rqou >
hmm maybe it is much more about the constraints
08:46
<
rqou >
the student stress environment was... a mixed bag
08:47
<
rqou >
i was pretty burned out by the end
08:49
<
pie_ >
i had some...problems :/ should have gotten my bachelors a few months ago
08:50
<
rqou >
the thing is, in many ways i really liked having the stress
09:03
<
travis-ci >
whitequark/Glasgow#49 (master - 65002cf : whitequark): The build passed.
09:21
<
rqou >
hmm, i should sleep
09:22
<
rqou >
how is it so late already?
09:41
<
whitequark >
lol rqou
10:10
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16:04
<
awygle >
rqou: try the sleep phase advance schedule listed in that slatestarcodex link pie dropped, and look for an earlier "set point" than you're currently sitting in. Without drugs I handle 2300-0700 and 0100-0900 almost exactly the same (in the summer). Also blackout curtains are incredible.
16:15
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21:26
<
rqou >
awygle: hmm interesting. i actually used to have blackout curtains
21:26
<
rqou >
they were put in by an ex-housemate who also had fucky sleep patterns
21:27
<
rqou >
unfortunately it tended to lead to lots of feelings of "not enough Outside(TM)"
21:27
<
awygle >
The end of summer is fucking me up a bit right now. I'm thinking about trying one of those blue light alarms...
21:28
<
reportingsjr >
I bought some of the Tradfri lights that Ikea sells
21:28
<
reportingsjr >
they work ok
21:28
<
reportingsjr >
They 100% wake me up, but they aren't super reliable when using the remotes they sell
21:29
<
awygle >
Interesting. I hadn't heard of these before.
21:29
<
rqou >
i still think i was most effective when i was on a biphasic sleep cycle as a student
21:30
<
reportingsjr >
I've been happy enough with them. Quite secure compared to other IoT lights.
21:30
<
rqou >
but i stopped doing that because of <redacted>
21:30
<
awygle >
Yeah I liked biphasic sleep too
21:30
<
rqou >
and now that I'm not a student it's hard to do
21:30
<
awygle >
But it's not compatible with life
21:30
<
rqou >
it worked fine in the rather specific way i did things as a student
21:30
<
reportingsjr >
awygle: something I keep meaning to do is tie them in to the sleep tracking app I use. I found it super useful to have an alarm app that attempts to track deep sleep/REM and wake you up during lighter sleep.
21:31
<
awygle >
reportingsjr: yeah I used to do that but I stopped at some point. I think I couldn't find an android app that I was satisfied with? I used to do it with my ipod touch way back in the day
21:31
<
reportingsjr >
I like sleep as android
21:31
<
reportingsjr >
It does a pretty good job.
21:32
<
reportingsjr >
Unfortunately the only "smart lights" tie in it has is Philips hue, so I need to setup a hue to Tradfri bridge on my home assistant setup which is.. meh.
21:33
<
reportingsjr >
I haven't been using it for about a month because my pebble watch died. I can seriously tell. I feel like crap over half of the times I wake up now.
21:34
<
rqou >
hmm i wonder if i can just switch back to biphasic sleep anyways and just hope my coworkers don't look at me funny
21:34
<
rqou >
unfortunately because it's not Google there aren't nap pods around or anything like that
22:51
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23:47
<
rqou >
hmm, i really should do something productive today