<workmad3>
shevy: I've used things that use openssl so I know it's possible, but I've never done the SSL connection myself (but I'm aware that starting the session can be a bit tricky)
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<_set>
is there any equivalent "die" commant in ruby?
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<_set>
something that totally ends execution?
<ddd>
abort probably
<ddd>
or exit
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<nesoi>
I just pulled a piece of code out of a larger thing I'd written and it's giving me this error. What should I be looking for? %: unnumbered(1) mixed with named (ArgumentError)
<nesoi>
it's within a heredoc
<nesoi>
which seems odd
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<heftig>
nesoi: % complains about the format string
<nesoi>
I don't think I have a format string heftig
<heftig>
yes you do
<nesoi>
well, I cut it out of a working program, which doesn't give an error
<nesoi>
so I'm confused
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<nesoi>
what should I look for?
<nesoi>
the line it lists is a blank line within the heredoc btw
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<nesoi>
heftig: any hints?
<nesoi>
totally baffled
<heftig>
nesoi: you're mixing plain (%d) and named (%{foobar}d) format sequences
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<nesoi>
heftig: , I don't have a % anywhere in my code
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<nesoi>
except as text
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<heftig>
#{} sequences?
<nesoi>
yeah I have those
<heftig>
those contain code
<nesoi>
ok, but they work in the program I took this snippet from, using the same variable names, all of which I declare before the heredoc
<heftig>
can't help you without seeing code, sorry
<heftig>
maybe reduce your code to an example that shows the problem
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<nesoi>
heftig : I tried reducing it and the problem disappears
<heftig>
as i said, it's because you're mixing two styles of format sequences
<heftig>
remove either, and the problem disappears
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<nesoi>
heftig : the thing is, I didn't change any formatting in the heredoc which is giving the problem
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<nesoi>
heftig : I now made an identical file to the one causing the error message, and it works with no error. wtf?
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<heftig>
don't know.
<nesoi>
oh.
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<nesoi>
the wrong file was linked. nevermind :(
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<_set>
what is the difference between {'foo'=>'bar', 'something'=>'else'} and {:foo =>'bar', :something = >'else'} ?
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<postmodern>
_set, the first one uses Strings as keys
<postmodern>
_set, second uses Symbols
<postmodern>
_set, Symbols are like custom identifiers
<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: u can comment ur code to my gist
<Jdubs_>
vectorshelve you could break it up into a method somewhere else that determines what it's being called on and acts accordingly
<Jdubs_>
as in, determines if it's an idea or share being submitted
<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: ok
<Jdubs_>
then does the rest
<Jdubs_>
do you know what i mean?
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<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: a separate method on whether item is share or idea
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<Jdubs_>
if var.is_a(Idea) etc
<Jdubs_>
and just have each section call that method
<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: sure.. will do that thanks :)
<Jdubs_>
no prob
<Jdubs_>
:)
<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: i think that way I can improve the block now
<Jdubs_>
That's really good that you are trying to lower your redundancy
<Jdubs_>
That's something I'm learning a lot about lately as well
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<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: ruby has this magic of bringing down 10 lines to 4 lines stuff :)
<Jdubs_>
yeah it's really awesome
<Jdubs_>
:)
<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: its an art u master over a period of time
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<Jdubs_>
how long have you been doing ruby
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<vectorshelve>
Jdubs_: 1 year... more into rails
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<Jdubs_>
vectorshelve, I see. I haven't really gotten into rails yet
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<Erfankam>
Hi. Do you believe python is faster than ruby in more cases? Actually I want to choose a web framework among Zend, Django and Rail and I confused how to choose the better one. Please help me.
<drPoggs>
How do you define 'better'?
<Jdubs_>
Ruby: more efficient to write, you can get it up and running more quickly (most likely)
<Jdubs_>
imo
<Erfankam>
drPoggs: faster, having more tools and etc
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<drPoggs>
Erfankam: Do what I did - start with Rails and ignore the others :)
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<Erfankam>
drPoggs: :)
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<Aphox>
sup k-rad pros
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<Erfankam>
Is there any body have experience in python or php?
<Erfankam>
I need help from those have try these tree langs.
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<Jdubs_>
Que por no los tres?
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<answer_42>
Erfankam: They are equivalent in functionality. I would use the language you are most comfortable in.
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<dwo|songkick>
I'm trying to find something to rate-limit outgoing requests
<dwo|songkick>
or even more generally just rate-limit a block/loop
<dwo|songkick>
eg. run this block no more than once per second
<dwo|songkick>
is there a gem or something in the standard libs that does this?
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<Jdubs_>
dwo|songkick: you still looking for help?
<Jdubs_>
the answer is "sleep x" where x is seconds
<Jdubs_>
so for one second between calls at sleep 1 to the block
<Jdubs_>
to the loop*
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<apeiros_>
Beoran_: ping
<apeiros_>
Beoran_: do you have any good resources for free tilesets for building the maps of the rpg?
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<Jdubs_>
apeiros_ gonna do some work today eh?
<Jdubs_>
apeiros :P
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<apeiros_>
BWC should be over in ~1h
<apeiros_>
will see how awake I still am, but yes
<apeiros_>
I intend to get connected maps and multimaps working today
<apeiros_>
*connected maps and map events
<Jdubs_>
neato
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<Jdubs_>
did you check my finished map level
<Jdubs_>
i think it's pwn
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<apeiros_>
no, busy watching 4 channels of sc2 :)
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<apeiros_>
Jdubs_: heh, I think that map will look nice rendered. I'm interested in seeing what you do when we move to gosu and pixel graphics :)
<Hanmac>
lessless your problem is that @events is not set, (its still nil)
<Jdubs_>
^^^
<Jdubs_>
i believe you need to add somethingl ike event=class.new?
<Jdubs_>
is that right hanmac?
<Hanmac>
@events ||= {}; before @events[name] = block
<Jdubs_>
ahh
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<apeiros_>
@ivar ||= # anti-pattern IMO
<lessless>
so in this particular case there no any advantages of using attr_accessor instead of simple @events = {} ?
<apeiros_>
initialize your ivars, it's not hard, really.
<lessless>
apeiros_, why's that?
<apeiros_>
and it makes your code so much more readable
<apeiros_>
lessless: ^
<apeiros_>
initialization >> ||=
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<Hanmac>
apeiros_ okay but how can he do that when he is in a main objekt?
<apeiros_>
Hanmac: by simply doing @events = {}
<apeiros_>
it's no different than anywhere else
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<apeiros_>
adding that stuff to main would probably be the second anti-pattern in that code, though :-p
<rohit>
||= is not for initialization only though, you might avoid calling a computationally expensive function because ivar is set. Isn't it a memoization pattern?
<apeiros_>
Jdubs_: a pattern which you should avoid doing
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<apeiros_>
there are programming patterns, those patterns are a bit like puzzle pieces to problems. if you identify the right puzzle piece to match a problem, you can just solve by recipe
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* Hanmac
puzzels what may happen if an pattern and an anti pattern colide :D
<apeiros_>
(sadly, many people do it the other way round, they see solution puzzle pieces and just push them into their problems…)
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<Dwarf>
I LOVE RUBY
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Do you now?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Can you explain why?
<Dwarf>
It's quite easy
<Dwarf>
To learn
<Dwarf>
Has good documentation
<Dwarf>
It's stable, versatile
<Spaceghostc2c>
Dwarf: Want to know a little sekrit?
<Dwarf>
Sure thing
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<Spaceghostc2c>
You don't love ruby for the right reasons. There's other even better ones you don't even know about! That's exciting.
<Dwarf>
inb4 python
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<Spaceghostc2c>
If the wrong reasons are as exciting to you as they are, think of the even better ones you don't even know yet!
<Dwarf>
Well then
<Dwarf>
Tell me moar.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Nawbruv, I like usable lamdas!
<Dwarf>
Lamdas...?
<Dwarf>
The only time I saw that word was when I got an error in PHP
<Spaceghostc2c>
Dwarf: That would be telling, and telling would deprive you of the journey from new rubyist to well-grounded rubyist and beyond!
<Dwarf>
mhm.
<Dwarf>
What's a lamda
<Spaceghostc2c>
You tell me!
<Dwarf>
Eeeh
<Dwarf>
I got an lambda error when I used regex
<Dwarf>
So I don't even want to know
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<Dwarf>
Wait
<Dwarf>
So lambda's are internal functions
<Dwarf>
Or something liek that
<canton7>
they're typically anonymous functions
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<Dwarf>
Strange how PHP would throws such an error
<Spaceghostc2c>
PHP is strange, when you're a stranger.
<Dwarf>
I began with PHP
<Dwarf>
But haven't mastered it yet
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<ddd>
like the Shaolin monks say, mastery is a daily goal that is never obtained. (Meaning there is always something to learn)
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Dwarf: I'd say you'd be better off not mastering PHP. :D
<Dwarf>
mhm
<Dwarf>
what doido
<Dwarf>
I take suggestions!
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<ddd>
work through iwanttolearnruby.com, get and read The Well-Grounded Rubyist, start reading the ruby-lang.org stdlib and core docs
<ddd>
work through rubykoans.com and tryruby.com
<Dwarf>
Mmm
<Dwarf>
My first project was an IRC bot
<Dwarf>
But it's on my late laptop
<Dwarf>
So now I'm recoding it
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<ddd>
write tons of litthe (and big) things you have absolutely no qualms about throwing away, install pry (gem install pry) and start trying anything and everything you don't understand in there to see what happens and figure out why.
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<ddd>
s/litthe/little/g
<Dwarf>
What's pry?
<Dwarf>
And what's rake?
<ddd>
this is where google becomes your friend. :) but i'll give you this one. github.com/pry/pry
<ddd>
google for rake :)
<Dwarf>
Might as well ask some stupid questions while I'm here :p
<Spaceghostc2c>
Dear fucking god, man! Google shit!
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<Spaceghostc2c>
:D
<Dwarf>
mhm
<Dwarf>
so pry isn't really something I need
<ddd>
no, because if you start the stupid questions stuff, people will just start posting you bit.ly'd lmgtfy.com links
<ddd>
it is if you want to learn
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<ddd>
well, you could use IRB but pry is a better irb and has an ecosystem designed to make it a full fledged ruby debugger
<Dwarf>
I love the RTFM strategy
<ddd>
but as you wish. use irb if thats all you want
<Dwarf>
I use aptana studio as my IDE and I haven't ran into any problems that needed debugging
<ddd>
Dwarf: because YOU have to show EFFORT, WILLINGNESS, and the ability to do Critical Thinking
<ddd>
we're not obligated to just hand you everything on a silveer platter, and MOST stuff is context sensitive so what we give matters depending on the context you're working in, which means you need critical thinking capabilities in order to define that context
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<Dwarf>
Mhm
<ddd>
so here we go, now we're going to start changing the implicit vein of the conversation to one of 'i don't need no stinking debugger' I don't know the language or how to use it, but i'm that damned good i don't need to debug.
<Dwarf>
Agreed
<ddd>
good on ya
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<Dwarf>
Heh ddd
<Dwarf>
As much as I like the RTFM approach, I also like the "learn as I go" approach
<Dwarf>
Which work pretty well together you see
<ddd>
then start working those sites i gave you. most of them are interactive. work as you go all you want
<Dwarf>
Splendid :d
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<Dwarf>
Now, brb googling what rake is all about
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<ddd>
and if you mean just asking only when you need something, or looking at docs and ONLY learning when you need something specific to the current problem,, you're going to hurt yourself and your education. because if you really want to get good, you either practicve practice practice and read read read, or you relegate yourself to medicrety
<ddd>
mediocrity
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<ddd>
so it really comes down to the question of: how good you wanna be? then invest that much time needed to reach that goal.
<Dwarf>
Mhm ddd, but I make projects that explore every bit of a language ;)
<ddd>
the better you want to be, the more you'll invest. but thats a you decidion
<ddd>
how can you explore every bit of a language you don't fully know?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Also, lol aptanta.
<Dwarf>
Well
<ddd>
ther eis no well. the proper answer is.. YOU CAN'T
<Spaceghostc2c>
Dwarf: How can you make a project that uses something you don't know exists?
<Dwarf>
I've written something in PHP
<Spaceghostc2c>
Did it use the built-in email validator?
<Dwarf>
And then I try and make the same thing in ruby
<Spaceghostc2c>
And every kind of array function?
<ddd>
i can promise you you haven't written something in PHP tht 'explores every bit' of the php language
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<Dwarf>
Uhu
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<Dwarf>
True dat
<Dwarf>
But I try my best ;)
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<ddd>
anyways, you're investing more time making points that aren't really points than you are investing in your education. Work through all the links and books I gave you further up and practice practice practice. Give it a month or two and then revisit your irc bot and rework it entirely in ruby, then refactor that bot to be neater, and more succinct. write tests for it, figure out how TO test each individual aspect of it. Then throw it all away and write a new one fr
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<ddd>
and thats the big one: Then throw it all away and write a new one from scratch without looking at the original. See where you stand then.
<Jdubs_>
ddd: you rock
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<ddd>
Jdubs_: hard earned knowledge :)
<Dwarf>
Well y'know ddd, that's what I'm doing right now, I lost my original sourcecode so I have to recode it
<ddd>
shh. quit making excuses. go, do. become :)
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<ddd>
speaking of which.. *I* have my own education to look after today. Enjoy! If you put effort in, you'll get results out. I'm off to put in *my* effort, are you?
<Dwarf>
Eh, I think I'll enjoy my weekend for a bit ;) But I'll certainly remember what you said
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<lxsameer>
does we have the "condition ? A : B" syntax in ruby ?
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<jrajav>
Yes.
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<jrajav>
It's called the ternary operator by the way
<jrajav>
Or ternary conditional
<jrajav>
Since it's the only ternary operator in most languages "ternary" usually suffices
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<jrajav>
(As opposed to unary or binary operators)
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<Spaceghostc2c>
jrajav: Is a urinary operator someone who fixes UTI's?
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<jrajav>
That was pretty forced :P
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<Ruby_newb>
hi there--anybody willing to help a beginner with some (probably stupid) questions that I can't find the answer for after Googling?
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Nope.
<Ruby_newb>
*sad face*
<jrajav>
Just ask
<jrajav>
Don't ask to ask
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<Ruby_newb>
I'm beginning to teach myself algorithms, and am making a basic fibonacci sequence in Ruby
<Spaceghostc2c>
^
<jrajav>
If you ask to ask, we'll ask you not to ask to ask but ask instead
<jrajav>
It's a method on the Integer class, of which 10 is an instance
<jrajav>
It accepts a "block" as a parameter
<jrajav>
The block has a single argument, i, which the times method fills with the current number from 0 to the Integer
<jrajav>
(It doesn't include the value of the integer itself - in this case it will be 0-9)
<Ruby_newb>
so in that case 'i' is not just a variable to populate with a misc. value, it instead very specifically means 'integer' and inherets the value of whatever is before .times
<Ruby_newb>
is that accurate?
<jrajav>
No
<jrajav>
It IS just a variable. The block doesn't really know what it will be filled with
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<jrajav>
And it doesn't have to be an integer
<jrajav>
It is in this case
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<Ruby_newb>
oh, so it could just as easily be 10.times do |z| and do the same thing
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<jrajav>
No, that's not a complete block
<jrajav>
But yes, you could name the variable anything
<Spaceghostc2c>
The variable contains an object, but it doesn't type-check the object.
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<Ruby_newb>
right, I understand the need to have a block after it
<Spaceghostc2c>
IT could be |waffles|
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<Ruby_newb>
ok, that was the part I was being hung up on
<Ruby_newb>
so then 'i' is a local variable for the .times method--is that the accurate way of stating it?
<jrajav>
A block is basically a unit of code that acts like a value that you can pass to other methods
<jrajav>
No, it's a local variable for the block that you're passing to the times method
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<Ruby_newb>
aaaaah
<Ruby_newb>
gotcha
<jrajav>
The times method will call it however many times, each time with an incremented i
<Spaceghostc2c>
It's a block variable.
<Spaceghostc2c>
It belongs to the block.
<Ruby_newb>
ok, that makes sense, thanks for clarifying
<gcds>
what is better way to map xml to objects. Now I am using nokogiri and doing like this http://pastie.org/5392946
<Ruby_newb>
cool--thanks for the help
<jrajav>
No problem
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: blocks, procs, and lamdas can be a bit of a pain to learn hehe especially procs and blocks. they have nuances that can be a bit mind bending to pick up, but once you do you'll love em.
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<Ruby_newb>
yeah, still learning but I'm trying to play around with some basic algorithms to prep for my interview at Google ;)
<jrajav>
Yeah, as far as first-class functions it's easier to start with scheme or javascript
<JonnieCache>
blocks are the important concept really
<jrajav>
They're simpler in those
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<Ruby_newb>
I'm applying for a Sr. Engineer role there--I think once I master blocks I'll be set
<JonnieCache>
just learn how to use blocks to good effect and you can learn the FP theory later. it will make more sense if youre actually using it rather than learning it in abstract.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Ruby_newb: I don't think Google will care much about your ruby skill.
<JonnieCache>
but if youre interviewing for an engineering job the theory is probably more important
<Ruby_newb>
kidding. and you're right, they won't care much about my ruby skill
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<ddd>
Spaceghostc2c: its not always about the language, sometimes its about showing you understand a concept and can express it in *any* language
<Ruby_newb>
I'm actually going for a business product manager role, and am trying to understand some algorithmic concepts
<Ruby_newb>
since I don't have a CS background--reading Vazirani now
<Spaceghostc2c>
ddd: They're pretty specific to a particular set of tools. I don't think you'll get a callback without sufficient experience in their toolset for a Sr. position. :)
<ddd>
granted. just saying :)
<Spaceghostc2c>
Maybe for an intern. :)
<Ruby_newb>
Yeah, I don't need to necessarily know how to code for this role--just to understand concepts and communicate with developers to translate business needs
<Ruby_newb>
i'm actually fairly far along in the process
<Ruby_newb>
but just want to brush up
<Ruby_newb>
plus, this stuff is actually pretty interesting
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<Ruby_newb>
and I figured why not learn more about Ruby while I'm teaching myse4lf algorithms
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<ddd>
good point, and when you get the job if they hire you without knowing the languages they use, learning them on your own will only make your communication with them better. especially when you can say can you show me the bit of code you're talking about, can look at it, and fairly well grok what they're doing.
<JonnieCache>
if you can demonstrate a working understanding of that stuff in interview they will definitely be impressed :)
<ddd>
and many languages (but not all) read fairly similar once you know which words to discount insofar as that the concept of what they're doing remains and you can understand it
<Spaceghostc2c>
Ruby_newb: Yeah, we were talking about the google thing you were joking about.
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: If you want to communicate with developers, algorithms are probably not going to be terribly important
<JonnieCache>
very true
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: I would be more worried about development techniques, architecture, project management (from developer's perspective)
<JonnieCache>
source control workflows would be a good one
<Spaceghostc2c>
Buy them a damn table tennis set.
<ddd>
JonnieCache: iirc some of those algos were even used in the Biomimicry book (book about how science and technology has taken examples from nature to provide better versions of human technologies)
<swistak35>
How can I floor a number to specific amount of digits after decimal point? I mean, I want to 5.239 to be 5.23, but .floor() and .ceil() doesn't take an arguments (.round() takes).
<Ruby_newb>
I've done the codecademy jS course, have been reading up on agile project management, and multi-tier structures
<Spaceghostc2c>
Math.floor, right?
<jrajav>
swistak35: 1.34.floor
<jrajav>
swistak35: == 1
<swistak35>
I know, that I can multiple by 100, then floor, and divide by 100, but it's non-ruby-way : )
<jrajav>
Oh, missed the second part of your question
<JonnieCache>
Ruby_newb: look at DVCS (git, mercurial etc) and how they relate to agile workflows
<Ruby_newb>
The algorithms are more for the interview brain teasers they are known to give. Quite a few seem to be searching for an algorithmic response
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<Ruby_newb>
I actually did the git codecademy lesson a while back, but probably worth doing again
<JonnieCache>
Ruby_newb: the secret is, they dont necessarily care if you actually solve those brainteasers. they just want to watch you work on them in an effective way
<jrajav>
swistak35: What's your purpose for doing this?
<Ruby_newb>
I've heard for product manager roles (technical product managers at least) they do kind of expect you to know the technical concepts that go into solving them
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<Ruby_newb>
i'm going for a business product manager role, but this stuff interests me regardless so I figure might as well learn it anyways
<jrajav>
git has absolutely nothing to do with agile
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<JonnieCache>
Ruby_newb: of course. but they will give you questions that they know you cant solve, wanting to see if you have the self-awareness to admit it rather than just going in circles and panicing
<Ruby_newb>
right, agile is a project management methodology
<jrajav>
So many people conflate agile with testing, source control, code structure, MVC, a whole crapload of stuff it isn't
<Ruby_newb>
Source Jonnie?
<jrajav>
Agile is not the be-all, end-all of software development, not even close
<Ruby_newb>
I know, but from what I've heard most of the teams there are agile
<ddd>
just one way of doing it
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<JonnieCache>
jrajav: git isnt "to do with" agile but it does enable more flexible collaborative workflows
<Ruby_newb>
I have domain expertise, so I know I'll crush anything in that regard, but I want to show that I can communicate effectively with engineers
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: and a great many companies large and small 'claim' to be agile but don't really use agile processes
<ddd>
its a buzzterm
<swistak35>
jrajav: Rails app, i need to strip numbers with more than 2 digits after decimal point to 2 digits... Later I sum these values, so I need to keep this clean.
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<jrajav>
You think *reducing* the precision will keep it "clean?"
<Ruby_newb>
how is it a buzzterm? it seems to be a fairly well defined project management framework
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: It's not.
<JonnieCache>
Ruby_newb: i cant remember where i heard it. just look at some examples of questions though, some of them are clearly not meant to be "solved" in the time given
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: It was originally a set of prescribed best practices for software development and project management for the same
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: It has since been co-opted as the term for a myriad of self-contained "systems"
<ddd>
he explained it better :)
<jrajav>
This has been extremely harmful, because now agile methodologies are taken as law
<jrajav>
Agile consultants are treated as divine oracles
<JonnieCache>
hey at least its better than everyone using the waterfall model
<Ruby_newb>
interesting--thanks for the new perspective on it
<jrajav>
And even THEY helplessly try to explain to everyone they consult with that it's just best practices, to adapt it to your own organization and then forget about it
<jrajav>
The developers in the room nod wistfully while the business people just smile blankly and take notes
<jrajav>
JonnieCache: Elements of the waterfall model have their place in some projects and organizations too
<ddd>
or they take 1 or 2 aspects and quais-implement them and then claim they're some super-duper agile team
<Ruby_newb>
so in a nutshell, its really about being able to adapt and move/iterate quickly based on business/resource needs versus mapping out a massive predefined project plan where different phases (feature planning, coding, testing, deployment, etc.) all happen sequentially (ie. waterfall)
<jrajav>
JonnieCache: This is exactly what's harmful -- treating each of these theories as "systems" that you have to take all or none of
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<gcds>
I am searching for help to make xml to object and back mapper. Maybe someone has suggestions http://pastie.org/5393012 ?
<JonnieCache>
jrajav: thats what i said isnt it?
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: I would add client needs to that based-on list as well
<Ruby_newb>
cool
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: You should read the agile manifesto
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<ddd>
which many companies forget. after all, they are paying you and being responsive to their needs (and not just through PR) matters greatly especially if you'd like the relationship not to sour or be lost
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: And understand each of the points on their own
<JonnieCache>
Ruby_newb: it kinda stems from developers trying to cope with the reality of ever-changing project scopes/specifications
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<Ruby_newb>
i'm reading 'agile product management with scrum' right now
<jrajav>
Ruby_newb: And stop treating it as a self-help system. It's not a "thing," it's a bunch of things.
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<Ruby_newb>
yep, i know that
<Ruby_newb>
i worked at a b2b saas company before
<Ruby_newb>
and learned the importance of "its done when its done"
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<Ruby_newb>
so i'm curious, what are some things about product managers that piss off engineers?
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<Ruby_newb>
since i'm interviewing with one most likely
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: think managing customer expectations while using techniques to stay as responsive as *possible* (keyword there) to what gets through that process
<Ruby_newb>
gotcha
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<ddd>
Ruby_newb: probably refusal to see that the spec as written (or that just got approved) isn't something they can pull out their ass, takes time to implement (especially if its something new or dramatically changes a current working flow) yet expounding it as written in stone and that simply throwing man hours at it will solve it
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<ddd>
rather than working with the client to best manage the expectation of what can really be done by working as a liason between the development team and the client. basically mashing the developers because we all know the client knows *exactly* what they want every damned time :)
<Ruby_newb>
yep. i do a lot of that now anyway although replace developers with people managing SEM for Clients
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<ddd>
replace devs with deliverers and clients with requestors
<Ruby_newb>
like, when the sales team says they need projections for a pitch, but we have zero data to use...not something we can pull out of our ass
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<ddd>
because this concept applies even within a business itself
<Ruby_newb>
yep. managing expectations to requestors is a large part of my current role, so confident I can speak well to that
<ddd>
HR being a requestor for a new addition to the HR software, and deliverer being the team responsible for deploying that additional aspect that say comes with the software but wasn't previously enabled for whatever internal reason
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<Ruby_newb>
how technical do you expect a product manager to get when defining the functional spec for something?
<ddd>
yyes, exactly, on the sales team comment
<ddd>
depends on the prowess of the PM
<Ruby_newb>
I'm assuming that I should leave it as outlining the desired functionality, constraints, etc. and letting the engineer walk me through hurdles, approaches, etc.
<ddd>
and how good they are at getting a customer to really think through the steps of what they're asking for
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<Ruby_newb>
ddd: its always fun when i get to walk customers through how we actually pull projections
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<ddd>
hehe
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<Ruby_newb>
and also how inaccurate they are if we have shit data to work with
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<workmad3>
Ruby_newb: GIGO
<Ruby_newb>
perhaps what is scarier though are the large sums of money that we receive when we provide junk forecasts off of bs data
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<ddd>
yeah giving clients insights into your own internal processes can dramatically assist in them feeling a better ownership as well as greater confidence in your company's competence to fulfil their request.
<ddd>
sort of a group hug without all the touchie feelie :)
<Ruby_newb>
heh
<Ruby_newb>
any of you live out in the bay area by any chance?
<ddd>
KY here
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<Ruby_newb>
ah. i'm in Chicago. Was hoping for some reco's on good restaurants in Mountain View since I'm going to be there for a couple days
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<ddd>
you going to their office over there by the Cisco Campus?
<Ruby_newb>
yeah
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<Ruby_newb>
i've been there a few times for work and with friends who have worked there
<Ruby_newb>
its a gorgeous campus
<Ruby_newb>
jebus
<ddd>
yeah it is
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<Ruby_newb>
i work at a digital media agency right now--so freaking done with client service
<Ruby_newb>
i want customers, not clients
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<Ruby_newb>
and don't ever work at an ad agency--the business model is completely broken
<ddd>
well customers and clients are pretty synonymous. just diff words for the same thing. they both consume something
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<ddd>
your services/work/et al
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<Ruby_newb>
The distinction in my mind is that Clients you tend to service individually based on their very specific needs. Customers you tend to have more of and it is more of a one-size-fits-all (or many) approach
<ddd>
people started using client because it didn't evoke grocery store syndrome
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<ddd>
ok, i can agree with that distinction
<jrajav>
The distinction in my mind is that you use one word in order to make your customers feel special
<jrajav>
And you use another word to be honest
<jrajav>
:P
<Ruby_newb>
lol
<Ruby_newb>
fair enough
<Ruby_newb>
I use many words to make my Clients feel special
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<Ruby_newb>
Nothing pains me more than to be in a pitch and have the sales team spewing fluff to make people feel special
<Ruby_newb>
Except perhaps when sales people do that to me since it is so easy to spot, particularly when they are selling me on my own area of expertise
<ddd>
wanna make me feel special? listen to me
<ddd>
don't blow smoke up my ass, just.. listen to me
<ddd>
and HEAR
<Ruby_newb>
I can do that
<jrajav>
I have respect for salespeople, but I am also never going to put myself in a position where it is not in my interests to be frank
<jrajav>
It makes me sick to my stomach
<JonnieCache>
jrajav: ++
<ddd>
jrajav++
<JonnieCache>
lifes too short for that kind of nonsense
<Ruby_newb>
I actually don't have much respect for "sales people." Because quite honestly I've done quite a bit of sales in my organization, and I've been able to be incredibly effective by not spewing BS
<jrajav>
That's refreshing, actually
<Ruby_newb>
sales people in this instance refers to slimey ones that use jargon they don't understand, promise things that can't be delivered or shouldn't be based on the scope, etc.
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<Ruby_newb>
that ultimately just care about closing the deal and not the long term success of the client
<ddd>
if i can't be frank and honest, I'm setting one (or both) of us up to fail
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<Ruby_newb>
I find that I have to take notes about all the things that piss me off about our sales rep while we're in a pitch to avoid reaching over and bitchslapping him mid sentence
<ddd>
hahaha
<ddd>
hey doing it IN a pitch might A) get them not to do it again and B) get the client because DAMN they care enough to make SURE their team stays on track
<Ruby_newb>
I honestly don't understand why he finds it impossible to have an honest and direct business conversation without the sales spiel
<ddd>
though, no, I wouldn't put that to the test ;)
<Ruby_newb>
lol, good idea
<Ruby_newb>
my favorite though is when we were in a pitch where the top person in the room was on my level technically (technical in regards to SEM) and he launched into things
<ddd>
because his job is being a salesman. Sales has its own speak. he probably feels he's not doing his job right if he *doesn't* throw in the doubletalk
<Ruby_newb>
the guy basically just listened, and then very politely just turned to me and started talking shop about their business
<Ruby_newb>
and we had a very technical and meaningful conversation
<Ruby_newb>
Yeah, something isn't right if you have to use doubletalk to sell something
<ddd>
what *I* don't like is the hard sell.
<Ruby_newb>
indeed
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<Ruby_newb>
or when they try to go over your head when you are not interested because of their offering's shortcomings
<JonnieCache>
the sad fact is, that stuff works
<Ruby_newb>
its like "bitch please, whose opinion do you think my boss is going to ask for when you go to him?"
<JonnieCache>
for a limited defintion of working
<ddd>
i really do NOT like people pushing me into buying, especially when I'm not *sure* I need something. I like the guys I can talk to, and can be frank with. The guy that admits the shortcomings in their platform and then *works* with me to at least temp work around the failing until its fixed.. those are the guys I like (the workaround is just an example)
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<Ruby_newb>
indeed. nothing i hate more than surprises because they don't want to admit their product isn't perfect. even worse is surprises that come up in front of clients
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<Ruby_newb>
had one vendor recently drop a major bomb on us while we were on the client kickoff call after just agreeing to move forward
<ddd>
or during a critical moment in the business's daily workflow, that was never mentioned.
<Ruby_newb>
lets just say we had words
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<Ruby_newb>
let me run an idea for a product by you guys--feel free to shoot it down
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<Ruby_newb>
It would be a site that you could create a profile for, and when sales people contact you, you would just email them your link, and they would have to fill out whatever survey, form, etc. you created there.
<Ruby_newb>
and then they'd have to pay a certain amount, like, $5 or so, directly to you or a charity
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<Ruby_newb>
in order for you to read it
<ddd>
hey I see you're doing this in your flow. Our product might have an issue with this aspect. We currently have this workaround so it won't bite you, and here look at this. this is what we're planning on implementing to repair that. I just wanted you to know about it, and we'd gladly allocate engineer time to work with you should it bite. I'm hoping this is something we can work on together, would that work for you?
<Ruby_newb>
wouldn't work for companies with anti-bribery policies, but I think a lot of people might appreciate that
<ddd>
engage them
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: hahah i like that! :)
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<ddd>
a frontend to offset their smash and grab tactics
<Ruby_newb>
exactly
<Ruby_newb>
i never want to go grab lunch with a sales person because then i'm on their terms
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<Ruby_newb>
but this is the equivelant of them paying for lunch
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<Ruby_newb>
and I get to define the structure of the conversation
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<ddd>
but thats the problem with the whole process
<Ruby_newb>
and if it is priced low enough, it is an easy to justify the sales expense for them
<ddd>
everyone jockeying for a position they may or may not be able to fulfil
<ddd>
rather than frank, direct, lets look at the nuts and bolts approach.
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<Ruby_newb>
Indeed. they try to make it about the relationship they build in the sales process vs. the better business choice
<Ruby_newb>
I don't want another relationship--i'm married, that's enough
<ddd>
i understand the need for stroking occasionally, i just think its a serious flaw in the relationship from the word Go
<Ruby_newb>
disagree--stroking is handled by wife (per above)
<Ruby_newb>
no extra stroking needed
<ddd>
well you are building a relationship. you're creating a commonality you both can build on for future business.
<ddd>
thats part and parcel of business
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<Ruby_newb>
If you need to stroke someone's ego to build a relationship, then that is a pretty shitty foundation IMHO
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<ddd>
i understand that aspec. I just mean that from the very beginning, both should be seeking to truly establish an honest approach to depicting the need and the ability to fulfil it
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<Ruby_newb>
for sure
<ddd>
doing so can save MILLIONS of dollars for companies
<Ruby_newb>
which means being upfront about shortcomings that could cause issues down the line
<yangchenyun>
anyone attend the ruby conf China today?
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<ddd>
because lying to each other in the initial meeting JUST to grab a position of power, costs you money in the end
<Ruby_newb>
indeed
<ddd>
Ruby_newb: exactly on BOTH sides though
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<Ruby_newb>
well hey, I have to jet for lunch, but its been great talking to you--i might swing back later as I'm working on more algorithms ;)
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<ddd>
and creating an atmosphere where its ok NOT to know, with the understanding on both sides that there is no harm in not knowing right then and there, but you best believe I'll do my damnest to find out what I can to address that
<ddd>
Later. I've kids to take care of right now myself.
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<khagler>
I'm attempting to compile ruby-1.9.3-p327 on Mac OS X 10.8.2, and I'm getting an error while compiling readline.c. Some Googling turned up a bunch of references to attempting to install via rvm, but after flushing away many, many hours of my life I found no way to make it actually install via rvm--I just got the same compilation error
<khagler>
Does anyone know how to make it actually compile on a Mac? Or better yet, a nice Mac installer so I don't have to screw with compiling anything?
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<shevy>
khagler: what precisely is the error you get
<JonnieCache>
:layout is just a symbol, basically a string
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<JonnieCache>
in ruby they are used as identifiers, so its very possible that in that code, :layout is being used to designate a file handle
<JonnieCache>
or maybe a function that retrieves the file handle
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<JonnieCache>
i suggest stopping the interpreter at that point using pry (https://github.com/pry/pry) and checking out exactly what is going on at runtime
<ccooke>
dakta: just as when you see "foo" in code you know that's a literal string being created, :foo in Ruby code is a literal symbol
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<ccooke>
dakta: think of Symbols as lightweight strings. They're immutable and memory efficient - just as with literal numbers, where ever instance of a literal 1 in your code is the same object, every :foo in your code is the same Symbol
<ccooke>
dakta: so you could say it's created the first time your code executes a line containing :layout
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<ccooke>
but every other time is equivalent, it just doesn't allocate new memory
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<dakta>
Yes, that's all fairly clear and obvious. I'm just curious as to how that symbol is pointed to anything. I was saying that it looks like it's attached/pointed on L299, to a file handle or parsed contents of that file handle.
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<dakta>
My question is "regarding the :layout pointer, is it or is it not set on L299?"
<JonnieCache>
i see no reference to a :layout symbol on line 299 of that link
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<havenn>
dakta: Mind reposting link, I've arrived late.
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<ccooke>
dakta: Symbols are just memory-efficient Strings. They have no special properties other than being more efficent than String objects
<ccooke>
dakta: so :layout doesn't point to anything. It could be used as a hash key, just as any Object could, in which case you could use it to look up something. But that is a property of the Hash, not of the Symbol
<havenn>
Anyone know of a better way to define instance methods as an initialize argument string?: https://gist.github.com/4077299
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<havenn>
Said that badly, I mean define a new instance method named after the class's initialize arguement.
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<ccooke>
dakta: in the example you gave... a to_html method is called. If that's the definition of it on L299, then :layout will be the first parameter of the method, so will be referred to as the path variable inside the to_html lambda
<havenn>
Seems like there must be something better than "self.class.send(:define_method...)"?
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<JonnieCache>
havenn: theres define_singleton_method if you only need an instance method on that particular instance
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<Hanmac>
dakta an ruby symbol is similar as an enum in C(++)
<havenn>
JonnieCache: Yeah, wanted to define it in the class. Maybe I should just roll a #define_class_method and use that.
<JonnieCache>
otherwise you can just do `class << self; define_method :foo, proc {bar}; end` inside the initializer i think
<havenn>
JonnieCache: Mmm, that would DRY it up a bit.
<apeiros_>
shifting 0b110 by 4 bits is 0b1100000, and that is 96 in decimal
<apeiros_>
<< is a method in ruby, and for that reason its function depends on the receiver of the method call (which would end up in what cirwin said)
<x82_nicole>
Wow, I honestly have no idea that even means. I understand they're different, but I've never heard of bit shifting in my life. ):
<apeiros_>
x82_nicole: you know what the binary representation of a number is?
<apeiros_>
i.e., that 0b11111111 is 255?
<x82_nicole>
Like, converting 6 to binary? Not in my head :p
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<apeiros_>
(or 0b11 is 3)
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<workmad3>
x82_nicole: you know what a binary representation is though, right?
<apeiros_>
ok. a right bit-shift just "adds" zeros on the right side
<apeiros_>
so `<< 4` means "add 4 zeros to the right side of the binary representation"
<apeiros_>
hence 0b110 --> 0b110 0000
<apeiros_>
and you can ask ruby to convert the numbers for you to see. 6.to_s(2) # => "110"
<workmad3>
apeiros_: hmm, I thought << was actually a left-shift
<apeiros_>
and: 0b110_0000 # => 96
<workmad3>
apeiros_: because it shifts the bits left
<apeiros_>
err, yes
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* apeiros_
is awake for too long…
<workmad3>
heh
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<yaro>
hi, does anyone use rbenv and could help me out with autocompletion?
<shevy>
hmm how long do local variables survive? let's say I have a local variable that is a huge string.. and it is created only when a method is called... will that local variable persist somewhere in memory after that method is called?
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<workmad3>
shevy: yes, until the string can be garbage collected, I believe