<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: oh, i definitely want two 8:10 ports :) one inside, one outside
<rjeffries__>
wpwrak add some more i/o in particulat I2C, also a second 8:10 port
<rjeffries__>
I don't want to own this mechanical design, but a new fresh approach would be interesting
<rjeffries__>
mth you are correct and that is off the table because of philosophical reason
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: well, it all depends on what you're trying to sell in the end, and to whom. if it's devices to regular consumers, it's difficult. if it's devices to vars, openness is an enabler and a very strong differentiator as well.
<rjeffries__>
That's it, end of story. it does not approach a smart phone form two years ago in usability
<rjeffries__>
other than "I want a totally open device"
<rjeffries__>
what are the use cases that make a Ben compelling...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: the easy reproduction anytime only happens if the reproducer is convinced there's a market share worth stealing and that there won't be severe enough punishment
<rjeffries__>
there are many existence proofs (read smart phone in various packages) where one gets a larger screen, and a better keybaord
<rjeffries__>
actually I am not positive physical keyboard is required
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: if you want a netbook, there are dozens of choices. it would be insane to go there.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: likewise for a "tablet"
<rjeffries__>
no much smaller than netbook but enough larger to allow more comfortable use
<rjeffries__>
agreed
<rjeffries__>
why would an investor risk capital funding something that by definition can be easily reproduced anywhere anytime? it does not compute
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: it's just difficult to convey to potential investors. at least difficult enough that, combined with the general lack of investor-attracting skills in the qi-hw community, it's insufficient (so far)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: i would consider a new case a requirement. i wouldn't change the form factor, though
<rjeffries__>
wpwrak including a new case to allow a decent keyboard and a larger touch sensitive screen?
<rjeffries__>
I can understand why wolfspraul is focusing Sharism resources in the direction og Milylisy, a totally different marejt
<rjeffries__>
s/marejt/market
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: oh, i think the biz case for a better ben does exist.
<rjeffries__>
the business case for creating a new Ben unfortunately does not exist.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: indeed. continuity also creates long-term credibility creates access to additional markets
<rjeffries__>
yes without a strong follow-on BEN is a VERY VOOL niche inside a niche inside an imperceptibly small target market
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: ben sales, perhaps lack of exposure. nanonote sales on general, i'd blame lack of a follow-on product
<rjeffries__>
smiles again. anyway, why do we think Ben sales are so sluggish?
<rjeffries__>
new topic?
<rjeffries__>
beleive it or not, I am not at all risk averse.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries__: indeed, and there is a line between "can't do" and "can do". very often, it exists only inside someone's mind :)
<rjeffries__>
may 1,000 flowers bloom.
<rjeffries__>
smiles
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries__: what side you already cross?
<rjeffries__>
wpwrask there is a thin line between "realist" and "defeatist" //grin
<rjeffries>
.
2011-04-20
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you're staying true to your character ;-)
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries_: no ofense, but not going to the univesity or having a profesional degree in a specifc is not excuse for not doing fun/diy/play with electronics and software
<rjeffries_>
I anm not an engineer.
<rjeffries_>
s/wouch/touch
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrian is missing in action is my observation. maybe he is being held prisoner by the vendors who build up ATben and ATusb boards? who can say for sure>
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries_: try it !
<rjeffries_>
kristianpaul which part of IANAE do you misunderstand? ;)
<rjeffries_>
if that would work, then for $70 one could add full USB and wouch interface to Ben
<kristianpaul>
btw i think tuxbrain is not the person that hides, at least you mean other thing rjeffries_ ?
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I wonder if the 8:10 and SPI will provide an adequate connection to Microtouch
<rjeffries_>
when I used it via SSH so I had a bigger keyboard and a larger display, it was a clever little linux box
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak you have the wrong guy. But maybe Tuxbrain will do so after he returns from his sabatical or wherever he is hiding
<rjeffries_>
kristainpaul thank you for asking! I borrowed a Ben for a couple of weeks. long enough to realize it assumes a more intelliegent, more well-informed user than me.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: so, attach it and show us a video with how great it works with the ben
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries_: ah, you bought a nanonote recently? :-)
<rjeffries_>
wolfspraul have new sales of Ben declined? the list is very quiet, no newbies asking for help there are here.
<rjeffries>
coughs, but covers his mouth, nit wishing to disturb those who are sleeping
2011-04-19
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: nothing new for the last few weeks. i'm now working on the production testing.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I am out of date re your status with 6lowpan.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: non-standard layer <= 3 protocols don't make sense anyway. not being able to fit 6lowpan into some microcontroller is hardly an excuse :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: how you connect to the "real" internet is another question. sometimes you do indeed want a layer 7 gateway.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: isn't uIP a stack of 6lowpan, not a new protocol ?
<rjeffries>
to the "real internet)
<rjeffries>
the aim being to allow a VERY low poere WPAN node be able to conne=ct (eventually, through a gateway)
<rjeffries>
they are able to have a very small IP and TCP/IP that (I think) they tunnel through some lower level protocol
<rjeffries>
wpwrak what do you kn ow about the microIP protocol they mention wher eit looks like
<rjeffries>
rename #qi-hardware as #qi-biological-science We only eat GPLv3 licensed organisims. Step by step. Open-GMO
2011-04-17
<rjeffries>
wolfgang i was able to edit Wiki by using regular account. thanks.
<rjeffries>
wolfgang for some reason my openID credentials are rejected. Is there a way to overcome that so I can do a little editing of the wiki?
2011-04-16
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you'd have to ask sebastien whether this is something that really helps. also, these are quite large chips, so they're targeting the very high end market.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: such a thing may be able to increase the amount of available logic. won't help with the number of states, though.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (tabula) sounds as if they have a set of bits (8, apparently) for each config bit, plus a demux that picks one based on a central (?) clock. interesting approach.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (lighweight) oh sure, designing a non-standard protocol stack is always easy and fun. if it came to that, it wouldn't deny myself the pleasure of doing it entirely myself ;-)
<rjeffries>
wre there a few good links? I would then attempt to add themin Wiki to the stuff rejon recently crafted\
<rjeffries>
but maybe Adam will give advice to tuxbarin, who knows
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I talked with an engineer friend yesterday and he's interetsed in seeing the atUSB and related docs, thinks he might repeat might have an application
<rjeffries>
oh ok. Adam is looking at manufacturing aspects I assume?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: that was the original idea. but now it's tuxbrain who will do the manufacturing.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: nope, only to adam (forwarded to tuxbrain), roh, and richard
<rjeffries>
wpwrak did you send a set of atben atUSB to xiangfu (sp??)
<rejon>
wpwrak rjeffries please directly edit the page! :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: to the extent that anything recent can be completely free and open, given the current patent system
<rjeffries>
wpwrak 6LoWpan protocol is (I think) completley free and open, correct?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: not sure if richard or tuxbrain tried. afaik, roh doesn't have a usable ben.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak who besides wpwrak has been able to make a wireless connection using your devices?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak assume all the atBen and atUsb units you shipped have arribed at their destinations?
<rejon>
if you can put some latest outcomes, pictures and more and we can get rjeffries to add some thoughts, great!
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (manufacturing) the pcb fab has sent back the panelized gerbers a few days ago. we sent them back some comments. not sure what has happened since.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: not unless the ben has gotten a lot cheaper recently ;-) but i don't know his final prices. not sure if he does ;-)
<rjeffries>
the suggested qty 1 prices of thes etwo wpan boards (Ben and US) add up to more than a Ben if my math is correct
<rjeffries>
wpwrak what have we heard form Tuxbrain about the process of manufacturing initial run of AT-Ben and AT-Usb?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the chip has more features, though: 1) it supports antenna diversity: two antennas and it picks the one that has the best reception. 2) it can drive an external amplifier. each such improvement needs one extra chip and some other RF components.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: a better antenna could help, yes. although i didn't see much of a difference between the pcb antenna and the usual ~10 cm wifi antennas
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (an external antenna also needs a connector and probably a cable, so you have a bit of losses there as well.)
<rjeffries>
in a future iteration, would allowing an external antenna allow it to work at greater distances?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak in NO WAY am I complaining your work is Most Excellent!
<rjeffries>
wpwrak looking ahead, what will need to change to acieve greater range with ATBen and ATUsb?
2011-04-14
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the usual suspects when it comes to chip makers, no ?
<rjeffries>
due to the "T" word and you know what I mean
<rjeffries>
new topic
<rjeffries>
do you have access to a 3D printer (I thin?)
<rjeffries>
the US government is getting rather nervous and may shut it all down
<rjeffries>
in any case I am not in the DIY drone field I watch from teh sidelines
<rjeffries>
you must watch different videos than I do, roh <grin>
<rjeffries>
roh do you see the challenge as mainly software or also hardware
<roh>
rjeffries: people.
<roh>
rjeffries: i was on motodrone event already....
<roh>
rjeffries: i know the technology they use. and i've seen sources. the commercial stuff is useable. the free stuff cannot even properly fill the easy challenges the motodrone people set up as soon as there is a little wind.
<rjeffries>
roh you need to get out more. (just kidding) I've watced videos of really excellent drone flights that exhgibit very good autonomous f;ight contro;
<roh>
rjeffries: nope. the problem is a)money and b) time. these two are usually quite fast filled by commercial interrest as soon as one of the foss guys learns something the rest doesnt know yet.
<rjeffries>
roh I think that will change. the amateur UAV/drone hardware designs are generally (not always) very open
<roh>
rjeffries in the drone market there is only very little open source
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul http://diydrones.com/ does not seem to have a wiki or source repository however they have a forum where you might ask for source. they seem like a friendly and very open group. ding amazing stuff with DIY drones
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: diydrones have a wiki or source code repo?
<rjeffries>
sorta cool, they have limited goal for their drone project
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: hey
<rjeffries>
is it kristianpaul who is working on gps? anyhow, here is an article
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: heard of it, yes. alas, not the most useful frequency range. also, very narrow-band. about 1000 times narrower than the usrp2. furthermore, rx-only.
<rjeffries_>
kristianpaul sure is a cool concept. wonder how well it works. it is not very expensive I think
<rjeffries_>
it==FunCubeDongle that is
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries_: its hardware schematics is under DNA, but work out of the box with free software ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: at such low sample rates, they ought to be able to just stream the data to the host (pc, ipad, etc.). that would give them at least "infinite" memory. kinda odd that they don't even do that much.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak thanks and understood.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ah yes, and the memory is also ridiculously small. 240 samples ! that's by far the smallest i've ever seen. this is little more than a toy.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: still, i'd consider it a waste of money. add ~USD 120 more and you can get a real scope, with two analog inputs, 50 MHz usable bandwidth, deep memory, etc.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: a pretty poor device. it would be barely sufficient to properly show a 1 MHz rectangle signal (in the analog domain. the digital domain might be good up to about 3 MHz)
<rjeffries>
this is a clever and cheap ($6 uSD) little radio 2.4 Ghz subsystem
2011-04-03
<rjeffries>
a low end netbook running linux is prolly $200 new oe slightly used
<rjeffries>
but to get real, why not use a cheap netbook as master and simply communicate to Arduino via USB.
<rjeffries>
if objective is using AVR to handle real time data collection via say I2C or whatever, with AVR/Arduino as a smart beffer or even some data reduction before handoff to ben that could be feasible
<rjeffries>
wpwrak ubderstood regards need for a Ben to AVR protocol
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: just to communicate ? not a lot. you could just reuse my spi code for ben-wpan. the harder bit is the avr side, plus some meaningful protocol that rides on top of spi.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak how much new Ben software is needed to achieve bi-direcetional data transfer between Ben NN and AVR (read Arduino)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (from yesterday, SIE with jz4760) not a bad idea. if someone was to redesign the SIE, that would certainly be a better starting point than the aging 4720
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (comm with avr) SPI with the ben the master and the avr the slave should be convenient
<whitequark>
rjeffries: there are two points
<rjeffries>
at 56Kbps, the internet is useable. works great for email or irc and ok for light casual browsing with a text browser
<rjeffries>
most access to internet does not require very high speed.
<rjeffries>
I am so old i remember using dial modems to connect to internet at various speeds
<rjeffries>
whitequark well, if goal is connectivity, I think it can work. wpwrak measures (if I recall right...)
<rjeffries>
well over a megatbit per second over the 8:10 spi interface.
<whitequark>
rjeffries: the problem with ethernet is, you don't have any external interface with sufficiently high speed and host capability
<rjeffries>
or, thinking out loud, is SIE considered to competitive with Milkylist? I don;t think it is, but just wondering
<rjeffries>
use SIE which does not have a pretty plastic enclosure to test the 4760
<rjeffries>
wpwrak. OK. I was noodling about whether deigning in the 4760 into an SIE V2 might be an interesting approach.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i think they found numerous small issues that should be corrected in a future run
<rjeffries>
regarding another run od SIE aka swiss army knife card , similar to Ben + FPGA, are design changes required after that first runb of n=50 or so>
2011-03-29
<rjeffries>
that milkymist screen shot is ultra cool
2011-03-28
<rjeffries_>
s/tyo/typo  lol
<rjeffries_>
thanks xiangfu I tyo far too often
<xiangfu>
rjeffries_: yes.
<rjeffries_>
crap 5 bit red 6 bit green 6 bit blue (color depth)
<rjeffries_>
curious: does RGB565 mean 5 bit color frpth for red 6 got gtrrn and 6 for blue? in a 16 bit integer?
2011-03-27
<rjeffries>
rm the Seagate Dockstar (no longer manufactured) use Marvel SOC (ARM) has good linux support and is cheap(!!)
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul and others: how difficult to port Nanonote system to http://ur1.ca/3oj1r maybe ignoring wifi at first
2011-03-25
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: a 12 mil drill isn't too bad, though. e.g., i use a 13.5 mil drill. i give my vias a 30 mil copper diameter, so even 15 mil holes would be acceptable. (rule of thumb: via hole:via copper = 1:2 (for FR4 PCB material))
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (ITead) ah yes, minimum via hole size. that's what separates the boys from the men ;-)
2011-03-24
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i actually did a few things with wood. when my carpenter was too slow, i made my lab benches and a cupboard myself
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (-:C
<rjeffries>
Electric Chair, used once, from Argentina.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I knew you were an authority on ATM and communications matters, had no idea you were also an artisan with wood
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: he'll be happy to hear that you like this avantgarde design. like stone-washed jeans, just for furniture
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i''ll pass the request to my carpenter :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: at least now i understand what these strange circles do. before, i thought they were supposed to be ground points for use during testing. yet, strangely enough, they often didn't connect to any ground ...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i don't think this is how it works. there are other marks with crosshairs, but they have a different role. the idea behind the fiduciary is that it's on the copper layer, which is the reference for everything else, and the resolution for lines/traces there is limited
2011-03-23
<rjeffries>
wpwrak re fiducial marks. some type of cross mark would make it easier to locate center of the mark
<rjeffries>
roh when will you see if it transmit/receives? ;)
<roh>
rjeffries: wpwrak ? the package is here now
<rjeffries>
wpwrak now the race is on to see who confirms a transmission across the ether (outside of Argentina) FIRST! My money is on... roh?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yes. all three have reached their destination.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak have all of your atben/atusb packages now arrived at destinations?
<rjeffries>
nods understood
<rjeffries>
ok
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: lets said yes,
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: but not related with rtems, is another way
<rjeffries>
i thought someone said mm could boot linix so i guess that was bogus
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: it could
<rjeffries>
is flickernoise an app on top of rtems
<rjeffries>
is linux launched as a task on top of rtems ? or instead of rtems
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: linux is not part of rtems or flickernoise
<rjeffries>
interesting
<rjeffries>
kristianpauk is rtems the OS used my milkymist?
<rjeffries>
Steve Mosher said on FB re tuxbrain and UBB: Steven wrote: "Hot Damn. I need to hook back up with those guys.. maybe write code again, ive been getting my skills back in order"
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yup, looks good
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you need MISO, MOSI, SCK, RESET, GND, and VCC
<rjeffries>
too cool I hope Sparkfun or someone decides to build femtoduino
<rjeffries>
wpwrak does the Femtoduino have what's needed so it can be programmed from Ben + UBB?
<rjeffries>
thank kristian[pau;. I can always rely on you and lekernel
<tuxbrain>
thaks rjeffries :)
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain VERY nice job on the UBB with instructons and ribbon cable
<kristianpaul>
so rjeffries feel free !
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries there is also SPI ethernet modules out there, smaller than a full arduino that can be used for have ethernet conenctivitiy in NN is matter to make the software to make it work
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: (spi com) It can take me some time but I'm on it, I think is totally posible, I see various examples on avr spi slave code
<rjeffries>
david K check your PayPay ypou should have my payment. I sent 2x what you requested. hope that is OK. ;)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I have sent message to @JonOxner asking for EtherTen schematics
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: dunno. if they didn't use both SPI ports (i've seen two in atmegas, one shared with icsp and the other shared with the uart), then yes. otherwise maybe. i don't see the schematics.
<rjeffries>
speaking of arduino ;) wpwrak would it be feasible to interface Ben via SPI to this Arduino that has Ethernet?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yeah, parameters of the lower end of the standard range. that via hole really shouldn't have happened, though. i do that kind of stuff by hand on a particularly clumsy day :)
<rjeffries>
UBB arrived from Germany. damn, it is tiny
2011-03-14
<roh>
rjeffries: not. basically use is illegal in most countries and you will be fucked as soon as you need to do taxes.
<rjeffries>
it turns out that ?mining? bitcoin takes a very VERY long time, so I will go to an exchange, buy bitcoin
<rjeffries>
roh ho wcool is that?
<rjeffries>
I intend to pay him using Bitcoin just for the practice and per his preference
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain I think today David K is going to the post office to mail me qty 1 UBB
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (mail) i know, i know ... so you got a "hard" bounce already ? or just a warning ?
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: btw you finally have the ubbs from germany isn't it?
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: sorry but my english skills doesn't able to really understand that sentence...
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain at teh beginning silicon cover is function although a little on the funky looking side
<rjeffries>
wpwrak it seems your openmoko email is fubar
<rjeffries__>
he has cornered the UBB market
<rjeffries__>
my price was bad so I concede the global market to tuxbrain
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yup. smt and pcb are usually separate
<rjeffries__>
I think the dorkbot deal wher ethey merge a bynch of jobbs will be excellent price
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: great. let's see what you can find. there ought to be places with good prices
<rjeffries__>
I know the people from years ago
<rjeffries__>
they are not a pcb fab
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries__: what happened with UBB run?
<rjeffries__>
wpwrak tomorrow I will contact a small local shop that can handle small SMT runs of something like atben at usb
2011-03-10
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I read your c.v. Mr DiffServ
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak i was wondering about that issue. with the pcd house that quoted UBB for me, we made quite a big deal re: requirement to carefully machine or laser cut UBB
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: yes I have a pair of vendors to ask with good reputation on quality, now let's check price :)
<rjeffries_>
nods
<rjeffries_>
David's experience with fisrt run of pcbs for UBB was fine. does he also have a goor vendor for assembly?
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain tuxbrain_away re WPAN shield for arduino: there are a few 802.15.4 boards already. e.g. Zigbee protocol uses same radio as 6LoWPAN so may not need to develop hardware