15:48 <DocScrutinizer05> picking up a topic about nanny-state we had quite some time ago: some idiots want to outlaw sale of Christmas cookies etc during arbitrary times in year - rationale: it's too early to sell that stuff now, they feel it spoils their appetite for those cookies (ow maybe they feel pissed that they might want to eat some right away and get fat before even advent started)

15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> #s/(ow/(or /

15:51 <whitequark> pfff, such laws are great, though for a strange purpose

15:51 <whitequark> they serve to verify whether your government has any sense left in it, or should be shot^Wdisbanded right now

15:52 <DocScrutinizer05> "right

15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> however it's the people at large who got a pile of poo where some gray mater is supposed to work for creating a minimum of common sense

15:53 <whitequark> I mean, there isn't really any harm to allowing weirdos to propose idiotic laws, given your process actually works

15:53 <viric> I don't know if here there are such laws

15:53 <viric> but there are some products bound to a certain time of the year that can be bought only around it

15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> here there are not - yet?

15:53 <viric> I think it makes people enjoy them more, once they are available :)

15:55 <DocScrutinizer05> Lemme propose to outlaw uttering such bullshit suggestions like forbidding cookies. Everybody violating this rule shall get imprisoned for lifetime or treated with massive EST

15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> (if you missed it: this suggestion is of basically same class like the cookie-law)

15:57 <DocScrutinizer05> criminalize behavior that doesn't do *any* harm to anybody, but isn't considered "right" by some, for the weirdest reasons

15:59 <whitequark> but think of the children! their morals will get corrupted

16:00 <whitequark> this will irreparably harm traditional values in our society.

16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and the main problem in this frequently isn't "the state" which usually says "can't get done, we have a constitution that forbids" (though sometimes they fail and fall for opportunism) but the fraction of people which thinks such utterly anti-democratic and anti-libertarian mindset was "healthy" and they were better than others thanks to cultivating such mindset

16:04 <DocScrutinizer05> next logic request: "send them to the gas when they don't behave like we appreciate!"

16:06 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: heard of what happened in australia?

16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> but hey, ISIS builds a whole revolution and caliphate on it, right? So it seems it's a relatively widespread stencil for human concept of society

16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: nope

16:07 <whitequark> ASIO (their equivalent of NSA) now has power to do literally anything on any computer within australia if they say this is a part of "special operations"

16:08 <whitequark> also, they have the authority to throw you in the jail if you complain

16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> great¡

16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> almost like in USA or Russia

16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P

16:08 <whitequark> it's worse

16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> not really. Maybe formally

16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> it's "worse" since they are more honest

16:09 <whitequark> let's see how many journalists and independent bloggers will get jailed over that in following weeks

16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> AU does it by publicly saying they may. Russia and USA they do and don't talk about it

16:11 <whitequark> there are several important differences but it's pointless to discuss this. if I'm right, you'll just see it by yourself

16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe, yep. sure

16:12 <DocScrutinizer05> the differences are quite interesting but the end result is always the same, it seems

16:15 <DocScrutinizer05> in Russia they imprison you for snorting while walking by a Putin portrait at the wall, back 32. of February 2009, or some group of (according to all investigations) really bad people who are not related in any way to authorities shoot journalists down.

16:16 <wpwrak> whitequark: you forgot that it also puts the cultural heritage at risk

16:16 <DocScrutinizer05> In USA they tell you "we are the authority, but we would have to kill you if we would tell you which authority exactly" then threy hand you the ticket to gitmo

16:16 <wpwrak> (about the cookies)

16:17 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: what I expect is that ASIO will make that widespread and it will be a global chilling effect over the whole country

16:17 <DocScrutinizer05> quite possible

16:17 <whitequark> there are millions of people complaining about NSA today and that didn't really do anything to them

16:17 <whitequark> gitmo or similar measures are really extreme

16:18 <DocScrutinizer05> not arguing that tehere are quantitative differences

16:18 <whitequark> for Assange, maybe, but not for your average Joe

16:18 <whitequark> although maybe the fallout from this will serve as a warning to others :}

16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> (gitmo extreme) yiu for sure heard about those dudes (CIA?) kidnapped target subjects all over the world, e.g. in Italy, Germany(?), wherever they like, and gave them a flight not straight to gitmo but to some torture dungeon in some Romania(?) or elsewhere prison, where those guys got "interrogated" before they finally got killed or shipped to gitmo or simply dropped off the car (or airplane) wherever convenient for the TLA in duty

16:25 <whitequark> yes, I'm aware

16:28 <DocScrutinizer05> re AU aiui the outlawing criticism is only for those who actually suffered that treatment, not for general protest against the regulation and procedure at large, by general public

16:28 <whitequark> hmmm

16:29 <whitequark> that's still extremely broad and easy to abuse, however the particulars of how it's enforced will certainly change

16:29 <whitequark> we know NSA routinely scans and infects 0.0.0.0/0, for example, does that count as "being target of special operation" for ASIO?

16:30 <DocScrutinizer05> we basically have very similar regulations here, just a question how to interprete them

16:33 <DocScrutinizer05> here Verfassungsschutz and police need a paper signed by judge to do any "online search of computer" (euphemism for injecting a virus and rooting your PC), however they are free to define who's involved/relevant into that criminal activity they like to investigate. May be you and your family, your friends, all your neigbors, or maybe even whole villages or towns

16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> and anybody doing the Sowden on such mission of authority will not feel treated much different than Snowden actually does

16:36 <whitequark> well, Snowden is not applicable in your case, because you already know that such activity exists

16:37 <whitequark> and Snowden was a whistleblower who exposed a *secret* operation like that to public

16:37 <whitequark> anyway, there should be some clause limiting the scope of search

16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> not that anybody really had the slightest doubt about it being the case already, pre snowden

16:38 <whitequark> of course not, the public treated people saying that "NSA spies on everyone" as crackpots

16:39 <whitequark> tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists right there with mind control waves and HAARP

16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, and in 5 years 78% of Americans are recalling Snowden as "the sucker who spread lies about our law enforcement"

16:40 <whitequark> that's a different problem

16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> granted, AU gvmt is a special one of a kind

16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and every aussie I talked with so far was quite agreeing on that POV

16:42 <whitequark> they fucked up last election in a major way

16:46 <DocScrutinizer05> a slightly different topic: a few weeks ago German/western News reported about *huuge* anti-(ukrainian-)war demonstration in Moscow. How much of that been actually true? And did you participate?

16:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I didn't even bother to search for any nonsense in Russian News about it. Thus I can't have a somewhat unbiased idea of what really happened

16:50 <DocScrutinizer05> so you are my most honest source for info about what really happened

17:05 <whitequark> no, I did not participate

17:05 <whitequark> indy observers say ~50k, organizers say ~100k, police says ~5k

17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so it been between 20 and 60k, quite impressive

17:06 <whitequark> yes

17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, completely "unrelated": wearing a helmet, while beng discussed to become mandatory even for bicycles, on demonstrations is "passive weapon" and outlawed.

17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> being*

17:15 <DocScrutinizer05> and of course "...for riding bicycles..."

21:21 <DocScrutinizer05> dang "anonymized" chanlogs! could somebody with full join/part/nick logs please post the last DocAvalanche *join* event to me? either pastebin or private query

21:25 <viric> 23:17 -!- DocAvalanche [~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has joined #qi-hardware

21:35 <DocScrutinizer05> ta!

21:36 <DocScrutinizer05> env x='() { :;}; echo vulnerable :-/' bash -c "echo this is a test ;-) "

21:36 <DocScrutinizer05> had to boot a box

21:38 <DocScrutinizer05> you gotta love the creative naming, no? first "heartbleed", now "shellshock"

21:39 <whitequark> this is kind of a ridiculous trend

21:39 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:

21:40 <viric> how much you love to rant :D

21:41 <DocScrutinizer05> however, "I love you" wasn't any better, you need a name anyway, and CVE-2014-7169/CVE-2014-6271 no fool could memorize a 10 minutes

21:43 <viric> much better

21:43 <DocScrutinizer05> at SIEMENS for example they occasionally spend literally millions to come up with "awesome" names like SiePass

21:46 <DocScrutinizer05> like "Alzheimer" ;-)

21:48 <DocScrutinizer05> http://213.5.67.223/jurat o.O