DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05> duh! 19 "free" modules available still (1$ + facebook-like)
<DocScrutinizer05> too bad, I got no facebook account ;-P
<whitequark> I don't get one thing though, is
<whitequark> er
<whitequark> it doesn't seem to have any kind of security measures
<whitequark> so anyone on your network could do whatever they want
<whitequark> asked them
<DocScrutinizer05> I think you need to set the password via USB or whatever?
<DocScrutinizer05> or it has hardcoded password ;-P
<whitequark> if it's just password, then it's shit
<whitequark> anyone with a sniffer on the same network figures it out in a minute
<DocScrutinizer05> well, I mean that WPA thing
<whitequark> no difference if WPA or dedicated password
<whitequark> suppose you want to control it remotely -- you're screwed
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, you lost me
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> if the protocol itself doesn't have any kind of request signing and/or encryption, you can't just port forward it and control it remotely
<whitequark> exposing it to the internet
<whitequark> if the protocol does and the firmware is not written by morons (it probably is, but another story), you can
<DocScrutinizer05> err, I don't think this is a regular WiFi adapter
<whitequark> what do you mean?
<DocScrutinizer05> InternetOfThings, it's meant for remote control, not general purpose internet data transfer
<whitequark> sure. so?
<DocScrutinizer05> So I guess it has a way to set WPA-passphrase and that's it
<whitequark> well, and that's dumb.
<DocScrutinizer05> WPA2 maybe even
<DocScrutinizer05> ?
<whitequark> adding request signing with sha256 is like an hour of work and it already makes requests unforgeable
<whitequark> encrypting them is a bit harder, but still can be done
<DocScrutinizer05> WPA *is* encryption, no?
<whitequark> WPA only matters locally
<whitequark> and also
<whitequark> if the adversary is in your network, you're screwed
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, I don't get it
<whitequark> if you forward the traffic to this WiFi thing, you're screwed too
<whitequark> the only case where you're protected by WPA is: 1) the device only EVER communicates inside the network and there is no way to address it from outside 2) ALL of the hosts on the network are trusted
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh, you want it to have encryption on higher level, not on-the-air
<whitequark> yes.
<DocScrutinizer05> so you could hook up the thing to arbitrary public hotspots
<whitequark> not necessarily
<whitequark> so I could just say to my home router "expose this IP:port to web"
<whitequark> and still be safe
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm
<whitequark> this will be a very common use case
<nicksydney> i think probably in terms of security it's not that strong
<whitequark> nicksydney: my point is that adding request signing is *trivial*
<whitequark> adding encryption is less trivial because you need to use a proper mode
<whitequark> i.e. authenticated encryption
<whitequark> AES-GCM, or xsalsa20+poly1305
<DocScrutinizer05> you probbaly should implement such stuff on your firewall/router, or on a proxy resp concentrator in your network
<whitequark> 1) that's too much to ask of most users of the device
<whitequark> 2) if your network is insecure, and it is, it doesn't help
<DocScrutinizer05> most users don't want to control the thing from remote via public internet
<whitequark> of course they do
<whitequark> this is what already happens
<whitequark> source: several full internet scans, published recently
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, silly
<whitequark> see point 2 anyway
<whitequark> if your passphrase is "iloveyou" (it is), WPA2 is as good as open
<DocScrutinizer05> my home automation works different: I have a CCU-1 embedded linux device that has a web frontend on intra(inter)net
<DocScrutinizer05> this CCU-1 controls all the gadgets
<DocScrutinizer05> well, for me it's simple since the gadgets all are 866MHz, not any WiFi and no TCP-IP either
<whitequark> sure, I'm just saying that if you have real-world people who are not huge nerds and just want their problem solved
<whitequark> this is how the device should work.
<DocScrutinizer05> I can see how users buy such WiFi home automation gadgets since they want to communicate to them directly with their iPhone
<DocScrutinizer05> then exposing them to the public net is a logical next step, though pretty silly
<whitequark> yes yes
<whitequark> exactly what I mean
<whitequark> it may be silly, but you can at least make it possible to have it secure
<DocScrutinizer05> sure
<whitequark> (still have to not set the password to 123456! but oh well)
<DocScrutinizer05> but probably those users don't even care ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05> "duh! why should I worry when some idiot thinks it's funny to switch my living room light on and off?"
<DocScrutinizer05> "such idiot cannot exist"
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
<whitequark> you should have seen the recent VNC scan of entire web
<DocScrutinizer05> I seen it
<whitequark> oh, yeah, it's amusing
<DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe not the most recent
<whitequark> a lot of german municipal systems exposed
<whitequark> sewer control, power stations, etc
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, THAT is stupid
<whitequark> the things I seen there are unbelievable
<DocScrutinizer05> *nod*
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe I should scan my town's "IP-range" to find a few funny opportunities to save some money or do entertaining stuff ;-)
<mth> I guy I knew in school thought it was funny to cycle through the neighbourhood, pointing a TV remote at random living rooms and see if their TV responded
<mth> since a lot of them used RC5, it worked pretty well
<whitequark> hehehe
<mth> so there is always someone who will prank you like that
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, we already improved that prank by using a 15W IR flood light
<mth> even more over the internet, where the chance of getting caught is a lot smaller
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: HAHAHA
<whitequark> that's great
<DocScrutinizer05> IR laser is also useful, for a slightly different "attack scheme"
<whitequark> you're evil
<whitequark> :]
<DocScrutinizer05> I know ;-)
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<ray__> hi there can i use librewrt with tp-mr3420? wouter [20:10] <ray__> want sure new to this
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: any chance you know a good guide for building class E amplifiers?
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<whitequark> a book maybe
<DocScrutinizer05> class E?
<whitequark> class E.
<DocScrutinizer05> I admit I don't even know class E
<whitequark> keyed amplifier with LC matching network
<ray__> there can i use librewrt with tp-mr3420? wouter [20:10] <ray__> want sure new to this
<DocScrutinizer05> o.O
<whitequark> I've been told it's a good idea to use a class E one for my PSU
<ray__> whats oo
<whitequark> less power dissipation, simpler
<ray__> white did you see my q
<DocScrutinizer05> we see your q, we don't know an answer when we don't answer
<DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: that sounds like class-D to me
<ray__> k
<whitequark> class-D is PWM, class-E is halfsine though
<whitequark> and I think there are other differences
<whitequark> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier#Class_E has a good overview
<whitequark> The class-E/F amplifier is a highly efficient switching power amplifier, typically used at such high frequencies that the switching time becomes comparable to the duty time. As said in the class-D amplifier, the transistor is connected via a serial LC circuit to the load, and connected via a large L (inductor) to the supply voltage.
<whitequark> indeed, this is exactly my case
<ray__> what happens if change subnet?
<DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: yepo, I see
<ray__> from the default
<whitequark> hm, maybe my Horowitz and Hill has it
<ray__> what happens when i change default subnetmas?
<whitequark> no, doesn't cover PAs at all
<ray__> white did you see my q about subnetmas
<ray__> ?
<whitequark> ray__: I have no idea what are you asking at all
<ray__> white sorry im austic
<ray__> white what if i change from befault subnet mas to sothing eles what will it do?
<DocScrutinizer05> aaah, you're thinking about your 100W 12kV thing
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: sure
<ray__> white did you understand my q that time
<whitequark> no
<ray__> white lets try tyhis one more time
<DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: there you are :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> hail anu.edu.au
<ray__> white what happnes if change the default subnet mask?
<DocScrutinizer05> ray__: what's your topic?
<ray__> want to knwo what dose changeing the default subnet mask dose?
<DocScrutinizer05> nothing good
<ray__> im just woundering
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to change it
<ray__> mine tell me i can DocScrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe! >>the proof of the pudding is in the eating<<
<DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: no wonder I never heard of 2class E amp" before. In my book this classifies more for a TX oscillator than what I understand is an amplifier
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> I was surprised too
<DocScrutinizer05> would be pretty hard to make a audio amp out of this ;-)
<whitequark> pfff, who needs audio
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe
<DocScrutinizer05> actually I wondered how the heck they would modulate that thing
<whitequark> AM
<DocScrutinizer05> 100% preferably
<whitequark> you just change the supply voltage of the amplifier
<DocScrutinizer05> which is what they did, on a morse rate of 0.1 char/minute
<whitequark> like, use a controlled boost converter for that
<whitequark> at least that is what I will do
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
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<ray__> any one want some green apple cookie?
<DocScrutinizer05> bot?
<ray__> nope
<ray__> trying to be nice 2
<ray__> 2+2= 4
<DocScrutinizer05> when that's a turing test then you didn't pass it yet ;-)
<ray__> i know marry popion movie
<DocScrutinizer05> :-D
<DocScrutinizer05> alas I don't
<ray__> DocScrutinizer05: you a bot?
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe ;-)
<ray__> DocScrutinizer05: so you are?
<DocScrutinizer05> some think I am, yes
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
<ray__> DocScrutinizer05: im for real
<ray__> DocScrutinizer05: school starts soon
<DocScrutinizer05> I'll proceed to the shower and see if any shorts are caused ;-)
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* DocScrutinizer05 waves
<DocScrutinizer05> austic?
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm
<DocScrutinizer05> we shouldn't be hostile to him, eh?
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: btw, a less braindead version of that poettering thing
<whitequark> http://nixos.org/
<whitequark> http://nixos.org/nixos/about.html outlines the benefits
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<DocScrutinizer05> mhm
<whitequark> wpwrak: remind me, which is the good rigol today?
<whitequark> 1102E?
<whitequark> 1074Z?
<whitequark> the *B series I can find here is either sold out or has very little RAM
<whitequark> 1074Z seems nicest so far. lot of RAM, big screen, four channels
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<eintopf> hi
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<wpwrak> whitequark: 1000Z is nice. 4 chan, low cost, hackable (if you think of buying all the options individually, then you'd be better off with directly buying a higher-end scope),
<wpwrak> whitequark: drawbacks: 1) sample rate gets mercilessly divided down to 250 MSa/s. 2) intensity grading not as nice as in the better rigols.
<wpwrak> but if you can live with these limitations, then it's a good choice. if you want fancier, you could get a 2000. but they come only with 2 channels and hacking them is much harder.
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<wpwrak> 3rd option is siglent. new kid on the block in that range. their sds2000 looks quite promising but still had a number of ugly quirks in the firmware (plus a stupidly placed knob). a bit cheaper than the rigol 2000, less unbundling, and goes up to 4 analog channels.
<eintopf> wpwrak: when I have money, I will ask you about an oscilloscope and then I will buy it. I am 100% sure you are the expert about low cost oscilloscopes in home environment.
<eintopf> wpwrak: do you think I can build an own oscilloscope with an high ADC sampler and some serial wire connection to pc. PC runs an application which plot data from serial.
<eintopf> this will be slow, but it's a possible solution to build one?
<wpwrak> serial = usb, yes :)
<wpwrak> ah, build a complete device
<eintopf> ftdi chip
<wpwrak> well yes, but it'll be a toy, not really useful
<eintopf> wpwrak: this would be a post on hackaday!
<wpwrak> naw, there's already a ton of "arduinoscopes" and such junk
<eintopf> grml :(, somebody stole my idea. I doesn't know this.
<eintopf> and arduinologicanalyzers, too?
<wpwrak> i'm sure there are some as well
<wpwrak> i built one with the ben :) actually somewhat useful - does a few dozen MHz
<eintopf> another idea was to buy some arm with fpga and built an open usb debugger with that.
<eintopf> but I can't programm a fpga. The usb debugger should work with usbmon.
<eintopf> and many companies are angry to me, who sells some kind of this hardware for 2000 eu
<eintopf> eur*
<wpwrak> you could consider it a learning opportunity :)
<wpwrak> and no, you won't be able to sell something like this at such a high price :)
<wpwrak> fpga-based LAs do of course exist, too. and they're relatively inexpensive.
<eintopf> so all my ideas are already developed
<eintopf> okay, an android app/iphone app with gpg encryption to load something in the cloud
<eintopf> in connection with an anelok
<eintopf> so we have already some popular members like rihanna
<eintopf> :P
<eintopf> but then you need to put some swarozky stones on the anelok!
<eintopf> wpwrak: (selling) it was not my goal to selling such device. Goal is too have a open source community driven stable device for something like that. ;)
<eintopf> sniffing usb devices
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<eintopf> s/swarozky/swarovski
<wpwrak> (glass) i'm sure she can afford real diamonds ;)
<wpwrak> (open) there's also an open critter of that kind. also, there's bitscope
<wpwrak> what they all have in common: they're not very good. e.g., the fpga-based LAs often just use the fpga memory. so they can't store long sequences.
<eintopf> a doctorand of my university works with hash algorithmn (tested SHA-3 candidates) he use xillinx fpga's
<eintopf> and the linux IDE
<eintopf> he always are very angry about the IDE
<eintopf> always broken
<eintopf> error messages like windows
<eintopf> s/are/is/
<eintopf> wpwrak: (low memory) but when you have a high bus, like PCI-E and connected FPGA, you can use the memory from arm processor or something else
<eintopf> and I mean dma activated etc... you can already buy some solutions like this
<wpwrak> (sythesis tools) everybody hates them. have you seen this ? http://captiongenerator.com/4460/Hitler-manages-a-FPGA-design-company
<wpwrak> those fpga-LAs normally go USB. yes, if you made a board that goes into a pc, you could do something a lot nicer
<wpwrak> but also a lot harder to get right
<kyak> wpwrak: amazing ! :)
<eintopf> that's not funny when you know german language
<eintopf> okay... a little bit
<wpwrak> turn off the sound :)
<eintopf> yea, but the most funny part is the angry reaction speaking
<eintopf> and this isn't funny if you know what he is talking about.
<eintopf> In the 00er years of the internet there was something similar like this. "Fanta world news"
<eintopf> some japanese news and you can put own subtitle on it
<eintopf> that was funny!
<eintopf> but I never know what they really talked about
<eintopf> wpwrak: do you can also speak some japanese?
<wpwrak> nope, none of the asian languages
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<eintopf> wpwrak: but you decrypt sometimes asian datasheets?
<wpwrak> with a lot of luck ... and a lot of english :)
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<whitequark> wpwrak: yeah I think 1074z
<kyak> dunno maybe you've seen
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<wpwrak> kyak: the apps extension ? no. but it's a logical piece. mooltipass ? sure. has a bit different goals than anelok, though. last time i checked, it was designed around a smart card.
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* DocScrutinizer05 is undecided if likes "moolti"
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds like Jovovich in "the 5th element"
<wpwrak> yeah, that's where they "stole" the name. let's hope it won't get them into legal trouble.
<DocScrutinizer05> let's hope it's not as pathetic as the original muhltipass
<DocScrutinizer05> Jovovich is hot, but the movie is more like a huge parody
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd be reluctant to use it for a branding
* whitequark pokes ltspice
<whitequark> ltspice seems pretty cool, except it apparently hasn't evolved since about uhh
<whitequark> 1994?
<DocScrutinizer05> watch out, I heard it pokes back
<whitequark> either the GUI or the engine
<DocScrutinizer05> N-either ?
<DocScrutinizer05> nor
* DocScrutinizer05 glances at quics
<DocScrutinizer05> err qucs
<whitequark> either GUI or engine have not evolved, or, neither GUI nor engine have evolved
<whitequark> I would expect better understanding of boolean logic from you :>
<DocScrutinizer05> exactly, the first is a logic XOR, the second a logic NAND
<wpwrak> whitequark: now you know the exact age of the world, according to "young earth" creationists :)
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: oh
<DocScrutinizer05> s/NAND/NOR/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "exactly, the first is a logic XOR, the second a logic NOR"
<whitequark> indeed
<whitequark> foiled by my own deeds!
<whitequark> wpwrak: the world was created at 00:00 Jan 1 1980
<wpwrak> aka D(OS)-day ;-)
<whitequark> it's Unix epoch, no?
<whitequark> or was it 1970?
<whitequark> right, 1970
<DocScrutinizer05> actually
<DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~> date -d@0
<DocScrutinizer05> Do 1. Jan 01:00:00 CET 1970
<DocScrutinizer05> hmmmm
<DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~> TZ='America/Los_Angeles' date -d@0
<DocScrutinizer05> Mi 31. Dez 16:00:00 PST 1969
* DocScrutinizer05 starts musing
<DocScrutinizer05> the world got created all the same time?
<DocScrutinizer05> and when same time, then absolute, or same local time?
<whitequark> -d specifies offset including timezone
<whitequark> not Unix time, in fact
<whitequark> (because Unix time is at UTC)
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