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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: tale care, that's how allergies are triggered
<DocScrutinizer05>
take*
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<wpwrak>
oh, i've had that pollen allergy for a good while already. just not in this mix so far. one of the less welcome effects of global warming, i guess.
<wpwrak>
and if i was a klingon, i'd be happy with how this day started: killed two mosquitos even before my first cup of blood wine ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
fsck mosquitos. They almost ate me in holidays
<DocScrutinizer05>
exposure to allergens while your immune system fights bacteria or virus *can* trigger an allergy. actually it's one of the most common ways how allergies are triggered, it seems
<DocScrutinizer05>
otoh while you're exposed to a heavy ammount of allergens you're sensitized to, your imune system pays less attention to flu and other germs
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually suppression of the allergic reactions is crucial to allowing your immune system to "forget" the allergy over the years
<whitequark>
I think it's not "forgetting"
<whitequark>
it's just shifting immune response to the one which is not annoying
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's "forgetting" like you lose immunity to a disease you suffered
<whitequark>
IgE->IgG or something like that
<whitequark>
maybe more than one mechanism
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, yes that might be details I'm not knowing of. Sure the immune system still might counteract the allergen, but on a level that doesn't make you suffer ill effects
<DocScrutinizer05>
much of all this is about histamine release
<whitequark>
I've also was curious about how they "desensitize" you by repeated exposure to allergen
<whitequark>
and turns out it's not actually desensitization, just making sure a different type of response occurs.
<DocScrutinizer05>
guess why they call the antiallergica also anti-histaminica
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
immune system is incredibly complex machinery
<DocScrutinizer05>
and eats amazing amounts of energy from your daily nutrition
<whitequark>
I'm astonished it works at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<whitequark>
the thing it does with DNA is mind-boggling
<whitequark>
brute-forcing protein configurations to find a proper antigen, basically
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
they fight cancer this way now
<whitequark>
antibody*. like a massively parallel computer, except it doesn't compute, it tests it against the antigen right away
<DocScrutinizer05>
teach immune system to attack the cancer cells
<DocScrutinizer05>
by sensitizing them on a particular property of the cancer cells
<whitequark>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
not yet commonly used since it's "customized medication" which is extremely expensive
<whitequark>
and because cancer is alive in first place because there's few things for immune system to grab onto...
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the trick, the scientist helps the immune system by giving some "hint"
<whitequark>
yeah I know, it's just that it doesn't work on "all" cancer
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, prolly not
<whitequark>
you're lucky if it works on yours
<DocScrutinizer05>
another thing they try is a virus that only "works" on the cancer cell DNA
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite ambitioned
<DocScrutinizer05>
ambitious*
<DocScrutinizer05>
and if the virus doesn't already kill the cancer cells, it might at least "tag" them for immune system to spot and attack them
<DocScrutinizer05>
the immune system's "problem" is: it can only see the cell hull and the proteins on there. It can't know about the DNA inside
<whitequark>
yes. you don't have to tell me, I almost graduated in bioengineering ;p
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-) Not teaching you, I thought some others might be interested readers
* whitequark
looks around
<whitequark>
*crickets* *tumbleweed*
* DocScrutinizer05
looks in wpwrak's direction
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<DocScrutinizer05>
also I'm happy to check my pretty annoying half-knowledge against somebody who really understands that stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB I not even considered graduating in biology or chemistry
<whitequark>
I definitely wouldn't pitch myself as an expert in the area
<whitequark>
but I know some basics
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly more than I do
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. the antibody shaping is sth I once maybe heard about but for sure wasn't in my active knowledge vault
<whitequark>
that's in 2nd year curriculum today, but I think it is pretty recent research
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's special detail knowledge I find very intriguing but alas had no time to look into as much as I would like to
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the semi-popular-science reports I usually listen to or read are not dealing with this kind of detail
<whitequark>
1987. how the hell do you discover such an enormously complex mechanism even without good computers?!
<whitequark>
oh, I see, he sequenced a lot of DNA and observed the recombination directly
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also only know cloudy factoid fractions about that two-stage sensitizing to allergens
<whitequark>
the general idea is that first you have the antigen presented to your immune system, and it doesn't cause any reaction, but makes it memorize the antigen
<DocScrutinizer05>
first stage: get exposed but do not suffer from ill effects. Just "lern to know" the allergen. 2nd stage: on a second exposure to same allergen the immune system actually starts taking action
<whitequark>
and then at some random point in future boom! you get anaphylactic shock
<whitequark>
yeah.
<whitequark>
correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just have *no* idea *why*
<DocScrutinizer05>
hand-over from one cell type (T-cells?) to another ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I used to know this, but have forgotten the details
<whitequark>
yes
<whitequark>
Your body produces IgE designed specifically for that particular allergen, but you won't experience a reaction yet.
<whitequark>
If you are atopic (meaning, you’ve inherited a predisposition toward allergic disease), your T cells are quick to stimulate B cells
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW I once watched a report that explained it. But only one report
<whitequark>
When stimulated, B cells develop into plasma cells
<whitequark>
Plasma cells produce IgE antibodies, which are targeted to that specific allergen
<whitequark>
The IgE binds to special receptors on mast cells
<whitequark>
Your system is now sensitized. Your mast cells are like little bombs that are armed and ready for detonation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, amazingly complex and intriguing, this stuff (not diagram, pending to watch it)
<whitequark>
and also: "The mechanisms of primary sensitization are still essentially unknown."
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<DocScrutinizer05>
that makes me feel a little better about not completely knowing the facts ;-)
<whitequark>
there's quitea bunch of things in biology that we surprisingly still don't know
<whitequark>
so for example in 2014, we still have basically no idea how anaesthesia works
<whitequark>
like, at all. there is a bunch of theories which may or may not be correct
<whitequark>
general anaesthesia, that is
<DocScrutinizer05>
the occasional reader might think we're vastly off topic here and now. But it's all just about ``<wpwrak> been near-dead for well over a month last year, when that mixture struck the first time.´´ which we for sure must fight so it won't happen again ;-)
<whitequark>
the leading theory is that it is basically throws a wrench into pretty much ALL proteins
<whitequark>
though to a different degree
<whitequark>
in which case I don't know why anyone comes through it alive at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
and only recently they noticed the increased danger of old patients suffering a non-reversible disorientation from anaesthesia
<whitequark>
hm, was it? I thought GA was always thought to be one of the procedures that if you can avoid, you do...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course they have NFC why that happens and what to do against it
<whitequark>
completely unrelated, have you seen sigrok?
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's that?
<whitequark>
I'm having a lot of fun playing with it and probably end up contributing
<DocScrutinizer05>
sth like seti?
<DocScrutinizer05>
seti@home
<whitequark>
a FOSS toolchain for logic analyzers, but also scopes, meters, and all kinds of digital and analog data acquisition devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh
<whitequark>
they have a nice GUI that you would actually want to use
<whitequark>
though rough on edges
<whitequark>
and a LOT of supported devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
FOSS sounds like linux version available
<whitequark>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
so basically a signal analyzer?
<whitequark>
a PC software for logic analyzers.
<whitequark>
and it has FOSS firmware for some of the supported hardware as well, but it's secondary.
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: a hw dev I know, upon hearing cost, said "wooow... I can now just sample all my test points at once with a bunch of these"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or maybe I should check out a few of combined scope/logic-analyzer devices supported, and finally do what wpwrak tried to convince me: get a scope
<whitequark>
buy a bag of those, plug into four separate root USB ports, profit!
<whitequark>
a 64-channel logic analyzer
<whitequark>
for uh $120
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed, I guess I will do so. Instantly
<whitequark>
you still need to sync them but it is not a major problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
hey, sounds like a nice weekend project
<DocScrutinizer05>
(sync)
<whitequark>
yes. I would just use something that generates e.g. gray encoded sequence of 0000 0001 0010 ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
how about cheap&silly: feed a 100MHz master clock to one input of each device?
<whitequark>
and then write a simple script that adjusts the delays
<whitequark>
well, with plain 100MHz master clock you have the problem that any two cycles look alike
<whitequark>
so if you have more than 10ns of drift, you'll end up in desync
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, we can cure that
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<whitequark>
(also, it's only 16MS/s at all 16 channels)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wobble the master clock a bit
<whitequark>
yeah, that's basically the idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<whitequark>
oh by the way, see how the vendor logo is censored on aliexpress?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<whitequark>
that's because it is literally named the same as an existing company and product: https://www.saleae.com/logic16
<whitequark>
and it has "compatible" firmware
<whitequark>
truly shameless
<sb0>
"Support all version of Original software"
<DocScrutinizer05>
wait, that thing comes with 10Gsamples buffer?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: no, it streams samples live to the PC
<whitequark>
no memory at all onboard
<DocScrutinizer05>
duh
<whitequark>
so buffer is only limited by your RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>2.Billions of samples
<DocScrutinizer05>
can save as many as 10B samples, letting you capture even the most elusive events. No more dealing with frustratingly small sample buffers<<
<whitequark>
and sigrok RLE-compresses the samples
<whitequark>
so in practice it is almost unlimited
<whitequark>
note though that you won't get 100MS/s if something else is on that USB bus
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, no practical issue, just a puzzling marketing-gibberish
<whitequark>
I stumbled into that problem
<whitequark>
any other transaction on bus makes a buffer overrun and it stops
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooomph
<whitequark>
so you need dedicate USB for it. could prolly go with PCI USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure thing
<whitequark>
PCI-e
<whitequark>
50MS/s is fine though
<DocScrutinizer05>
that too, prolly
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's the input signal conditioning like?
<whitequark>
whatcha mean?
<DocScrutinizer05>
levels, OVP, etc
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
1.5V
<whitequark>
OVP... no clue, need to reverse-engineer the board
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-P
<whitequark>
it didn't come with even a CD or a paper manual
<whitequark>
just the device and two cables
<DocScrutinizer05>
too expensive ;-)
<whitequark>
hardcore chinese cost reduction
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<whitequark>
the USB cable they have is *good* though
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<whitequark>
I tried several mine and the LA will just not enumerate or fail to work
<DocScrutinizer05>
duh!
<whitequark>
with theirs -- thick, heavily shielded cable -- it works perfectly
<whitequark>
and a huge choke too
<DocScrutinizer05>
hm, ok, that means their PHY sucks
<whitequark>
more like I had really shitty cables
<DocScrutinizer05>
or that
<whitequark>
PHY is standard Cypress FX2LP
<whitequark>
they're like in all test equipment made in last decade
<DocScrutinizer05>
no experience with that one
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
should 'just work' then
<whitequark>
8051 core with deeply integrated USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<whitequark>
and it can download firmware from host by itself, so no need for EEPROM
<DocScrutinizer05>
cool
<whitequark>
well, for big EEPROM. it still has one for ID & so
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<whitequark>
it's usually used as an interface converter between USB and FPGA
<whitequark>
it has a 16-bit bus that you just route to your FPGA
<whitequark>
SPI too, for firmware upload
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I'm 'used to' the 8051, my last hw design I did commercially on small scale used a atmel 89cxx51
<whitequark>
yeah 8051 is not the worst core there is
<whitequark>
could be PIC...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and almost 40 years old, so really widespread and common
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<whitequark>
there's still no non-shitty C compiler for 8051 though
<whitequark>
only sdcc
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm
<whitequark>
and sdcc is ... meh. it works, but meh
<DocScrutinizer05>
(plus a few other projects I realized based on this design)
<whitequark>
hmm, what did it do again?
<DocScrutinizer05>
like translucent tiles with a 16 red LEDs behind, which you could daisychain with a 3wire connection to form moving light patterns of arbitrary length
<whitequark>
oh right, LEDs
<DocScrutinizer05>
pusteflipper itself was a pinball alike medical tool, for ergotherapy
<DocScrutinizer05>
http://wstaw.org/m/2014/08/23/plasma-desktopS24150.png is a "volcano" - when you make the ball fall into it, it "erupted" (a set of 6 red-orange LEDs in the plexi volcano started flashing, resembling a bit on lava running down the side of the volcano)
<wpwrak>
(fight for my health) thanks ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
all those targets had IR light barriers, formet of only a IR LED and photodiode connected to the small circuit of http://maemo.cloud-7.de/dscf3349.jpg
<DocScrutinizer05>
formed*
<wpwrak>
(LA) and only closed-source host sw, it seems
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole thing ran for hours from a single 9V block
<DocScrutinizer05>
the cermet trimmer is for adjusting battery voltage threshold when battery-empty signalling kicks in
<DocScrutinizer05>
I took incredibly "chinese" "optimizations" on BOM of that thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. the LEDs where GPIO to GND, without any series R. The resistor onside the 89c2051 would do, as long as not more than one LED got operated simultaneously (in which case the total power dissipation of the chip would get exceeded)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: um, what?
<whitequark>
sigrok is specifically open-source host sw
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-08-23 Sat 16:01:06] <DocScrutinizer05> the occasional reader might think we're vastly off topic here and now. But it's all just about ``<wpwrak> been near-dead for well over a month last year, when that mixture struck the first time.´´ which we for sure must fight so it won't happen again ;-)
<whitequark>
there are open-source firmwares for some of the simpler devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh
<whitequark>
like you can build one yourself out of Cypress CY7C68013A, an xtal and some resistors
<whitequark>
and have a good 12MHz 8-channel logic analyzer
<whitequark>
most of it has ebay/aliexpress/taobao links
<DocScrutinizer05>
GPIB interfaces - lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
agilent or rigol, that's the question. Or even a fluke multimeter?
<wpwrak>
(selig) err, sorry, saleae
<DocScrutinizer05>
scopemeter
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: fluke are $$$. agilent also tend to be overpriced. rigol and siglent seem to be good choices. depends on what features you want.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know wluke are made of gld, or even platinum
<DocScrutinizer05>
fluke*
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>The Fluke ScopeMeter test tool is the one tool you can rely on to tackle just about any troubleshooting task.<<
<wpwrak>
if you're shopping for a multimeter, then i'd go for fluke. they make the only one i found so far that can measure current halfway decently. all the others crap out if you go to single-digit uA or have a massive burden voltage. and yes, this includes agilent.
<wpwrak>
if all you want to measure are volts, when most will work, though ;-)
<wpwrak>
so .. scopes. your choices would be: low-end: Rigol DS1000Z series. up to 4 channels, now also available as MSO. there have a lot of overpriced options but you can hack the scope to enable them.
<wpwrak>
medium range: Siglent SDS2000 series. also available as MSO. better features than the rigol and much less of a "free to play (but pay to win)" concept
<wpwrak>
(and the few options that may be interesting for the siglent are reasonably priced)
<wpwrak>
if you only want two analog channels, you could also consider the rigol DS2000A (or a 2 channel version of siglent SDS2000). the siglent is better but the rigol a bit more mature.
<wpwrak>
high-end: too expensive for mere mortals like us ;-)
<wpwrak>
i find MSO not extremely useful. SPI tend to be about the worst you'll ever encounter, and that has 4 signals. and if you want to compare with some other signal, you typically only need 1-3 from SPI, plus the other.
<wpwrak>
so i'd rather go for 4 analog channels than 2 analog + MSO. if i wanted to throw a lot of money at it, then i may consider adding MSO after i get 4 analog channels.
<DocScrutinizer05>
bwahahaha, please don't ask me to understand a single word of spanish
<wpwrak>
as i said, you can hack the rigol for example to upgrade from 70 MHz to 100 MHz.
<wpwrak>
that site has a nice overview. at other places you often get some messy list that is painful to navigate. and you can probably guess all the technical terms anyway ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it always kills me to tell "X bandwidth is what I will be happy with"
<DocScrutinizer05>
figure I go for a 100MHz scope and it turns out I need 150
<wpwrak>
naw, it's usually "X bandwidth is what i can afford" :)
* DocScrutinizer05
needs coffee
<wpwrak>
100 is a decent choice. if you can go a little higher, even better. i rarely run into things i can't handle at 100 MHz.
<wpwrak>
and for things like power supply issues and such, 100 MHz is plenty
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd guess I maybe run into other more practical problems when going for >100MHz, like mere technical interfacing to signal etc
<wpwrak>
yes, that becomes a problem quickly :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually PSU is a *very* good benchmark. I need to check what frequencies we might face in those switched critters, at maximum
<DocScrutinizer05>
from my arse I'd pull a 40MHz figure
<wpwrak>
so 100-200 MHz.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
for USB I'd need >500MHz, that's insane
<DocScrutinizer05>
if I'd go for USB, I'd already want 800MHz (firewire etc) too
<DocScrutinizer05>
so 1GHz
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess 100MHz 4 chan is a fine choice
<wpwrak>
i'd consider USB HS inaccessible
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
or 2 chan plus parallel LA
<DocScrutinizer05>
you never need more than 2 chan analog analysis
<wpwrak>
if you go with rigol, then yes. if you pick siglent, there's a difference of about USD between 100 and 200 MHz. (the argentine prices, with customs fees but without taxes, are a bit inflated, so they should correspond roughly to EU with all taxes and fees)
<wpwrak>
i'd want to be sure that what he LA thinks it sees it really what's happening
<DocScrutinizer05>
you got 2 fine analog channels to make sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
one for the signal under test, and one to probe the LA input on parallel with the scope, to make a swift inspection about what the signal really looks like. after that all you want is digital input and storage for all but the one signal under test
<wpwrak>
mmh, i hate fiddling with the LA until it actually shows the correct signal
<wpwrak>
much easier to just get the analog one and work on that
<wpwrak>
(of course, my DS1102CD also has a crappy LA, making things a lot more difficult)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, you most likely want a signal conditioner in front of your LA inputs
<DocScrutinizer05>
sth nice that offers adjustible threshold levels and hysteresis. Prolly built from analog components
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe even adjustable LPF
<DocScrutinizer05>
so, sth like 3 potis and a 2 or 3 opamps per input
<DocScrutinizer05>
DAMN, I wonder which poltergeist has cursed my home while I was away. 3..4 devices of my homematic the batts went low (supposed to last a year at least, so how high are the odds 4 are going low batt in 2 weeks?), plus some fire alarm triggered, and a lot of connection-lost/data-error reports
<DocScrutinizer05>
scary
<wpwrak>
maybe have a second look at these things that you don't remember to have been black ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the receivers of those critters work intermittent. I wonder if their firmwate fails to ever shut down the RX when a continuous stream of illegible garbage comes in
<DocScrutinizer05>
none turned black
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least none found so far
<DocScrutinizer05>
the fire alarm went off 10 days into my holiday
<DocScrutinizer05>
the damn shit doesn't record which of the sensors triggered :-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
idiocy
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a "alarm group"
<wpwrak>
maybe "post mortem analysis" wasn't very high on their list of design goals ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder if I should unpair the 3 sensors and form 3 individual alarm groups out of them. This however would defeat the one reason why they are RF alarms anyway: in-sync alarm on all sensors when some emergency happens
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course you cannot trigger alarm remotely on the smoke sensors, except by another sensor going tripped
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a reason for all that: they want to sell their $$$ fire alarm central
<DocScrutinizer05>
insane
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<DocScrutinizer05>
same shit with heater valve actors: you cannot control them from HM-CCU1, you need a thermostat to send commands to them
<DocScrutinizer05>
CCU has linux on it, I ponder since months to force eq3 to disclose the complete sourcecode
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm absolutely sure on a low level I *could* send commands to the valve actors directly from CCU transceiver
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, CCU syslog is recording the full communication between thermostat and valve actor
<DocScrutinizer05>
and if my last PC OS upgrade hadn't nuked all that and I've been too lazy to re-install and configure all of that crap, the syslog on PC for homematic had logs about which smoke detector sensor triggered the alarm
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<DocScrutinizer05>
but that really sucks to do 2 full manweeks of /etc/bla/* edits and stuff after every system upgrade. I don't get it how the windows guys can happily re-install their crap every 4 weeks, to clean up registry and whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05>
you prolly only can do this when you use even mail only via web frontend
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno, should I create one monster script to do all customization of the system via sed and similar stuff?
<DocScrutinizer05>
mmmpfff, it been the crappy CCU which forgot the IP of my pc:514 during last firmware update. GREAT!
<DocScrutinizer05>
1st is thermostat, 2nd is valve actor ack to thermostat
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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: Putin's revenge? The russian rocket parked Europe's first two Galileo sats in a 5000km too low orbit
<DocScrutinizer05>
on other topic: is there a rsyslog configurator tool for dummies? I have a damn hard time reading that gibberish manpages to figure which friggin facility etc I want to filter on
<DocScrutinizer05>
could it be that facility (local0 .. local7 or whatever) isn't printed at all to the var/log/messages file?
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn that crap. what means a minus in front of /var/log/blah ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
in rsyslog.conf
<wpwrak>
a much more plausible explanation would be insurance fraud. after all, these things are insured. and i wonder if anyone actually still believes galileo will ever work
<DocScrutinizer05>
why not?
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for the link btw
<wpwrak>
they're something like 10 years behind schedule, their old test satellites are failing at 1/4 of their design life, ...
<wpwrak>
with EU projects, there's always a high risk that they're just hidden "donations" to certain companies
<wpwrak>
happens elsewhere too, of course
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a sidenote I find it quite funny how everybody is using https:/ for quite about everything - starting with heartbleed
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe actually a good strategy to flood the ssl bug thing with irrelevant data
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe even use http for the security relevant stuff like logins etc then
<DocScrutinizer05>
weird: your link to heise wasn't https
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly again a embedded ad that was on https, I hate that
<DocScrutinizer05>
and particularly the warning it creates when I click on any link on the original non-secure page
<DocScrutinizer05>
dafaq! can anybody tell me what the "-" means?
<wpwrak>
good. less risk of you suddenly feeling an irresistible desire to make a habit of actually touching something with 1 kV ;-)
<wpwrak>
also, it has a crappy screen. you'll want a nice screen. big, if possible. vision only gets worse with age. i'm old enough to know that, too :)
<wpwrak>
maybe be a bit early. they're still quite new. and they're just about to release the "programming manual" (SCPI and such)
<wpwrak>
new means of course that people are doing some rather rigorous tests with them. so far they seem to be holding up rather nicely. eventually folks do find issues, but they're in pretty obscure areas.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: seems to me like rigol is the more mature and thus better supported device though
<hozer>
anyone else heard of the Owon ? It seems to work as well as the Rigol scope I used and has a bigger screen and ethernet
<DocScrutinizer05>
never
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yes, rigol is more established. but they don't have a good 4 chan "advanced" offer. the DS2000 series it limited to 2 channels and generally compares poorly with the SDS2000.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmmm :-/
<wpwrak>
owon, hantek, etc. have a poor reputation. apparently numerous small flaws. so more the entry-level sort of scopes you'd get for arduino work ;-)
<wpwrak>
and i think the owon 7xxx is about of the same generation of the rigol ds1000z, so you shouldn't really compare it with the old ds1000c/cd/d/e
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (rigol vs. siglent) e.g., the sample rate of the ds1000z isn't very good if you use all four channels. the ds2000 and sds2000 maintain much higher sample rates.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<hozer>
All I really want is a Lecroy analog input stage connected to an fpga I can program ;)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui ds2000 is rigol while sds2000 is siglent
<wpwrak>
hozer: it's good to avoid there rest of the lecroys, though, since their "brain" runs windows ;)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: correct
<hozer>
such braindamage ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn confusing
<wpwrak>
DS* = rigol, SDS* = siglent
<DocScrutinizer05>
why do you compare rigol to rigol?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I didn't even consider ds1000
<wpwrak>
different classes of rigol. ds1000d/e = entry level. ds1000z = ambitious amateur. ds2000 = basic professional. and so on.
<wpwrak>
well, it's always a question of the budget :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a question between siglet and rigol for now, unless I go mad end get a agilent
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even get me a used scope
<DocScrutinizer05>
but used ones are only interesting on analog, and that's not what my future lab-rev2 will look like
<DocScrutinizer05>
I want everything connected with everything
<wpwrak>
e.g., all i have is an "entry-level" ds1102cd. if it would fail completely (its communication subsystem got damaged a few months ago, but i can still use it), i'd aim for a ds10740z and hack it to 100 MHz since it would simply take too long to save for something better. if i had a pile of cash, i'd go for an sds2104 or 2204
<DocScrutinizer05>
I need a scope that's 100% supported by remote control
<wpwrak>
yes, connectivity is important. that's something that gets a lot better with modern scopes. "used" (but high-end) often means shitty communication and tiny memory.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can easily see I get fed up with the inconvenient UI
<wpwrak>
anything modern should be
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I consider a new one, not used one
<wpwrak>
i think the ui is important. it's what i use 99% of the time. the 1% remote access are for "hard" problems.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I want e.g. macros
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just watched a rigol video explaining runt trigger. OMG!
<wpwrak>
but there's also the undeniable convenience of being able to take a screenshot without fiddling with a usb stick. right now, that's all i can do, since comms are down :-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
instead of two turn buttons for upper and lower threshold they allow either changing upper, lower, or both in sync, with one turn button, and you need clumsy select between those modes via a menu
<wpwrak>
yeah, there are this sort of messy things. but you get used to them. you'll still hate them all your life, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can *easily* see a macro I want to have on my remote rigol GUI in PC, to do this in a different way
<wpwrak>
i wish someone made a decent scope with open firmware. then one could simply fix the damn thing.
<wpwrak>
in the end it
<wpwrak>
'll be harder to use :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<wpwrak>
most scope use is interactive: you generate the signal and adjust the settings until you get what you want
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, exactly
<wpwrak>
if you go my program, then your feedback loop gets a LOT slower
<wpwrak>
s/my/by/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "if you go by program, then your feedback loop gets a LOT slower"
<DocScrutinizer05>
why?
<wpwrak>
instead of turning a knob until it's "nice", you go from scope to pc, edit the settings there, load new settings, return to scope, etc.
<wpwrak>
or you make your own pseudo gui .. and miss the haptics of real knobs and such
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's wrong with a PC kbd in front of the cheesy rigol. with - dunno - lower threshold of runt trigger on F1/2 and upper on F3/4 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or, like you say, evebn use a game controller or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
with real turn buttons assigned to that stuff
<wpwrak>
you could of course get, say, a midi control box with these critters and work that into the gui, but at some point you'll spend 100x more time on that "perfect" gui than you're saving on having better controls. it just doesn't scale in your favour.
<DocScrutinizer05>
saving on having better controls?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm saving my nerves in that. Invaluable
<wpwrak>
#s/on/by/ :)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, cheap midi boxen are abundance, and the janus app to translate that stuff into a macro sequence and send to a well documented comprehensive remote control interface on a scope is just a weekend's works
<wpwrak>
famous last works ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what I do *not* want to have to do is replacing all turn buttons and pushbuttons in scope by ALPS motor driven stuff
<wpwrak>
anyway, i would expect either to have good "remote control"
<DocScrutinizer05>
now THAT qualifies for famous last words, regarding siglent
<DocScrutinizer05>
since aiui it is pretty much terra incognita regarding that
<wpwrak>
regarding maturity, the siglent hardware seems to be quite good. their firmware is still behind rigol but they're updating it frequently (and you don't need windows to update it :), and they're listening to customer feedback
<wpwrak>
you could have a look at the "remote control" of the siglent sds1000. the sds2000 will apparently be a superset of that. maybe they've already released it, dunno. last time i checked was about a month ago.
<wpwrak>
but if you prefer rigol, there's nothing wrong with that. both have what i'd consider very reasonable choices.
<DocScrutinizer05>
given both seem to not support a parallel LA
<DocScrutinizer05>
a 2ch is a nogo
<DocScrutinizer05>
again, let's think a PSU, e.g. the critter that does LCD backlight in N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
you'd prolly want to record more than just 2 signals, though at least some of them are interesting on logic level only
<wpwrak>
both have LA variants/options
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh
<wpwrak>
well, DS1000Z, DS2000A, and SDS2000
<wpwrak>
in the case of SDS2000 it's a real option (you get the license key and the cable kit), in the case of the rigols it may be a different product code. but the base scope is DS1000Z or DS2000A
<DocScrutinizer05>
and LA and scope can run in parallel?
<wpwrak>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
cool
<wpwrak>
you can find these things on the eevblog fora ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm
<wpwrak>
there's one where one guy is painstakingly going through every little feature of the sds2000, measuring exactly how the hardware performs, etc. ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's start with sth simple: do you know of any operation that can't get done via remote but only on device UI?
<wpwrak>
dunno. i see the two as fundamentally different ways of using the scope. you're either in local mode or remote mode. mixing them may be difficult and awkward.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and how fast can you download/sync the display via remote? also, complete display, or waveform only, or both?
<wpwrak>
e.g., i don't even know if you can command my ds1000cd to exit remote mode (other than by pressing a button)
<wpwrak>
that'll be MUCH slower than the local screen
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, that's expected
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I asked "how fast"
<DocScrutinizer05>
as in fps
<wpwrak>
what i sometimes did (before comms died) was capture a waveform with local controls, then download the visible area at high resolution for further processing
<wpwrak>
in the ds1000cd, communication is quite slow, so that generally takes a while. also, the ds1000cd could only transfer the "visible area", so i had to zoom in and step screen by screen through the waveform. messy.
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I should already go for a display/UI-less scope
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm afraid that would force me into wincrap usage
<wpwrak>
besides, most of them are crap
<wpwrak>
yes, and that too
<DocScrutinizer05>
but at least you could be sure that all remote controls are actually there ;-P
<wpwrak>
yes, and none of the local controls :)
<wpwrak>
but i wouldn't worry about the remote controls. also with a regular scope, you'll have at least what those "headless" scopes have.
<DocScrutinizer05>
(zoom in, go step by step through waveform) that's exactly one thing I'd expect to be able to do completely sw controlled via remote. Or I'd first shoot the device and then the manufacturer
<wpwrak>
the problem with this mode of operation is that what i actually want is to read every Nth sample, from the Sth to the Eth sample.
<wpwrak>
if comms are fast, i don't mind if N is always 1.
<DocScrutinizer05>
also, no download of raw sampe data is a death penalty for the one who built that crap
<wpwrak>
yes, that's the problem with the rigol ds1000cd
<wpwrak>
and to make things more interesting, you need to predict certain "dead times" of the scope when processing commands. else, it'll lose commands.
<DocScrutinizer05>
given that rigol is supported by sigrok, I wonder how they do it
<DocScrutinizer05>
OUCH!!!
<wpwrak>
but i'd expect that more modern scopes don't have that sort of bugs anymore
<wpwrak>
of course, for example my fluke 8845a, not a "cheap toy", sometimes resets tcp connections ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
do you think all those DSO crap items use winCE internally?
<wpwrak>
dunno what they use
<wpwrak>
i think they sometimes have weird hardware. e.g., maybe board X talks UART, then board Y turns that into USB. so you get USB, but with UART performance.
<wpwrak>
then add insufficient buffering and such, and there you are
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmmm
<wpwrak>
again, the more modern, the more likely such detours won't exist
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like an inefficient and expensive way to build such stuff
<wpwrak>
low frequency of innovation
<wpwrak>
measurement equipment has very long life cycles. maybe 10x that of, say, a smartphone :)
<wpwrak>
so if *everyone* speaks USB natively, they may start to bolt a USB-to-serial on their RS-232 :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
that may actually be a plus for siglent then
<DocScrutinizer05>
nowadays you do that sort of stuff in firmware
<wpwrak>
DS1000Z, DS2000A, and SDS2000 are roughly the same generation. siglent are a bit newer, but not by much.
<DocScrutinizer05>
in a generic universial hw platform
<wpwrak>
yes, USB is no longer a stranger
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd rather expect to find all sorts of not(-yet)-used unsupported hw stuff on such a device nowadays, like ethernet, sockets for more RAM, whatnot else
<DocScrutinizer05>
SATA
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui they already hacked and REed the rigol firmware, no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
((DS2000A, and SDS2000 are roughly the same generation. siglent are a bit newer, but not by much.)) why is rigol supported by sigrok thren, and siglent not?
<wpwrak>
hacked with the goal of enabling features that would require a license, yes
<wpwrak>
proper RE, no
<wpwrak>
ask the question again in a few months ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>I seem to have found the first bug in the DS2000 that is, IMO, rather a serious one:<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, sure, not much use in ds1052 stuff, just it's examples of what I would like to do and maybe is not possible, even in ds2000 series, according to last URL I posted
<wpwrak>
that issue is more than 1.5 years old. may have been solved since. ask marmad / post question in thread ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just worrying that there's been no update in the thread
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly after 1.5 years already
<wpwrak>
not too uncommon. problem goes away, people forget about it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmmm
<wpwrak>
also, there are several rigol 2000 threads on eevblog.
<wpwrak>
some are very very long
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, annoying
<wpwrak>
fora just don't work very well :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
took me around 30 min to find the *first* one related to 2k series
<wpwrak>
there's one with something like 300 pages i think :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and in last post marmad refers to another one but doesn't give a link
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>...post it in the Rigol REVIEW thread.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
KTNX
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess getting a scope is more hassle to do it right than i'm willing to invest into that right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a faintly related sidenote: did you ever try to figure with which max TX power (in Watts) a CMU200 can produce a RF signal?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the more complex the device, the more tedious and complicated it gets to find answers to pretty simple questions
<DocScrutinizer05>
like "what power does CMU200 TX do?" or "Does rigol DS2k allow proper download of full raw waveform data?"
<DocScrutinizer05>
when finding the answer involves stuff like "ask on the forum thread maybe?" then I'm usually out
<DocScrutinizer05>
not like siglent website was *any* better in their FAQ or datasheets or forum or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
so all you can do is weeks of googling and hoping, and finally buy one of the critters and then send it back on warranty when it doesn't support the stuff it's supposed to support
<DocScrutinizer05>
and either waste weeks on all that, or get somebody else doing it for you
<DocScrutinizer05>
annoying
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway this little episode convinced me of one thing: buy scope only locally so you can kick the ass of seller physically
<DocScrutinizer05>
or don't buy at all, rather rent
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a day or a week
<DocScrutinizer05>
renting also serves yet another purpose: you plan your task before you start it
<DocScrutinizer05>
or - to go back to square one of today - you start small and cheap and get 3 or 4 of those dirt cheap 16/8/4/3/2 chan LAs
<DocScrutinizer05>
when those turn out to be crap, you still can practice hot air reflow on them
<DocScrutinizer05>
note to self: consider a special mode in signal conditioner stage for LA to transform it into a flash A/D. With proper circuit, a 8 opamps should be fine for full 8bit A/D (feed back D/A converted output of higer bits to the inverting input of lower bit opamps)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder why I can't recall ever having seen this type of A/D anywhere