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<DocScrutinizer05>
*sigh*
<DocScrutinizer05>
poatao salad
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<whitequark>
hummmm
<whitequark>
added capacitors. X/Y used to have small deviation, somewhere around ±0.06mm--accumulated, this actually probably fucked up my holes on PCB!--that has now completely disappeared
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<whitequark>
I can touch off, make some rapids, then probe it back and go to 0.000
<whitequark>
maybe 0.000±0.005, which is really good
<whitequark>
5 micron!
<whitequark>
(though there's some unknown measurement accuracy in action)
<whitequark>
but with Z it didn't work... I wonder why
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<whitequark>
so, swapped X/Z, Z is still imprecise
<whitequark>
the problem is therefore not electronics, but mechanics or configuration...
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess your spindle motor is too heavy for the stepper
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could attach a simple counterweight
<DocScrutinizer05>
string and wheel
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe 2 wheels
<DocScrutinizer05>
this paired with an assumption in software or by operator that Z-up can get done at max speed, will result in steps skipped
<DocScrutinizer05>
(this == too heavy)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: maybe when you reduce ramp-up speed for Z-up and also reduce max speed for the same movement, you might already be fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
ramp-up is relevant from spindle motor introduced inertia
<DocScrutinizer05>
max speed is relevant since torque force of stepper motors significantly goes down with increased speed and you need a clearly defined force to make the spindle motor come up
<DocScrutinizer05>
clearly define *minimum* force
<DocScrutinizer05>
if the motor power gets near that needed force, odds are steps are skipped on uniform high speed as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
but more likely is losing steps on ramp-up
<DocScrutinizer05>
spindle motor inertia is a significant component to consider
<DocScrutinizer05>
for inertia also no counterweight will really help - of course it can take away the mere weight and thus the inertia alone may be small enough a force for stepper to handle it correctly
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then counterweight effectively doubles inertia of the system
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw you know how to calibrate spindle motor fixture so it's 100% perpendicular to your table resp PCB surface?
<DocScrutinizer05>
you use a hole saw alike toolbit of some cm radius and check which side it touches your PCB surface first when you go Z-down slowly with running spindle motor
<DocScrutinizer05>
since there are basically zilch requirements for the "hole saw" toolbit, you can build it by yourself
<DocScrutinizer05>
an acrylic disc with one center hole for mounting an axis and a pin attached to the perimeter somewhere to make the "tool" scratch the PCB surface
<whitequark>
the table is pretty parallel already
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<whitequark>
hrm, I wonder if microstepping on Z should be turned off
<whitequark>
since it greatly lowers max torque, probably yes
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: so, I lowered acceleration 10x
<whitequark>
that actually seems to make the problem *worse*
<whitequark>
after less than 100mm of travel it's off 0.3mm
<wpwrak>
if this is repeatable, just compensate algorithmically :)
<whitequark>
nope
<whitequark>
it has a certain stochastic component
<whitequark>
seems very much like random walk, which would be the case if it literally would randomly (and with a nice distribution) miss steps
<wpwrak>
(potato salad) nice. there's some good money for a worthy cause.
<wpwrak>
of course, he screwed up with the promise to actually ship some to his backers. that's just not possible :)
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<whitequark>
I wonder if I should also swap steppers
<whitequark>
or maybe even use a longer neck stepper for Z with more torque...
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<whitequark>
wtf
<whitequark>
the Z motor has a different kind of attachment to the leadscrew than X and Y ones
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<wpwrak>
when you're done with all this, you can start selling upgrade kits ;-)
<whitequark>
might also figure out why the X motor disproportionally heats up
<whitequark>
I feel like at some point it would be easier to just throw out *all* electronics and start over
<whitequark>
maybe just throw out all of it and make one from scratch
<whitequark>
because what the fuck
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<whitequark>
wow
<hozer>
the potato salad guy is going to spend $100 on potatoes and $25,000 on fines to the FDA for being an unlicensed food manufacturer :P
<whitequark>
swapped X/Z motors, now Z skips steps so hard, I can see it and hear it
<whitequark>
I don't even
<hozer>
what are you building
<whitequark>
I'm not building, I'm fixing my CNC machine
<whitequark>
CNC mill even
<wpwrak>
hozer: you mean that's the fines before his potatoes even leave the country ? ;-)
<hozer>
no, the state :P
<wpwrak>
*grin*
<hozer>
potatoes as 'product of the farm' are fine. But if you process them, and ship across state lines, the FDA makes a headache
<hozer>
someday I am going to build an open-source silicon motor driver chip
<whitequark>
oh yes, I've read people following his advice
<whitequark>
but it doesn't quite seem to be right in my case, I clearly have some mechanical trouble here
* whitequark
pulls out a bunch of hair from the leadscrew
<whitequark>
okay, that might have been it
<hozer>
do you have cats
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
my hair.
<hozer>
heheh
<hozer>
so do you think a vocore-like thing with a power-over-ethernet port and a stepper driver IC would be a good kickstarter?
<whitequark>
just install linuxcnc on beaglebone and you're done
<whitequark>
plug into literally any lpt cnc control box on market
<hozer>
I want to have the linux-cpu on the same board as the CNC control box
<whitequark>
so you could fry two at once? good idea
<hozer>
HAH
<whitequark>
and you WILL fry the CNC drivers
<whitequark>
or you'll want to upgrade
<whitequark>
etc
<hozer>
right
<hozer>
the idea is you have a power-over-ethernet CNC driver
<whitequark>
you want to power CNC via PoE?
<hozer>
each motor has it's own dedicated driver board
<hozer>
yes
<whitequark>
that's the most ridiculous idea I've heard in a while
<hozer>
why so
<whitequark>
my terribly underpowered CNC eats 50W just for motors
<whitequark>
and 200W more for spindle
<hozer>
50w per stepper?
<whitequark>
50W per three steppers
<whitequark>
but it's actually rather low, I'd like to have steppers with higher torque so I could do microstepping
<hozer>
well, I would not try to drive the main spindle with POE (although I have seen a 200W POE converter)
<whitequark>
so PoE delivers 25.5W max
<whitequark>
per cable
<whitequark>
do you intend to make a CNC mill for ants?
<hozer>
one cable per stepper, so you'd have a 75w power budget for 3 motors
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
that's idiotic
<hozer>
realistically, what I'd want is something that can do say 4inx4in milling out of a pcb
<hozer>
well the only way I'm going to find out how idiotic it is will be to build it
<whitequark>
yeah, but don't put it on kickstarter. you're free to suffer the consequences of your own bad decisions, but dragging everyone else is plain malicious.
<hozer>
how's that different than the vocore/rt5350 ;)
<hozer>
if some guy can do potato salad I should be able to do ethernet steppers
<whitequark>
did you deliberately combine the worst possible ideas in order to parody kickstarter crap?
<whitequark>
if yes, congratulations. if no and you mean this seriously, I'm sorry
<hozer>
and no, I'm not going to put this on kickstarter, until I have something running because nobody will believe it until I have video and schematics showing it running
<hozer>
and if there's something wrong with the rt5350, please tell me know before I waste a lot of time on it
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<whitequark>
hm, so
<whitequark>
ballscrew assembly is fucked
<whitequark>
I rotate it by hand and while going down, it blatantly skips steps
<whitequark>
this has been masked by the Z stepper mount, which actually put the entire weight of spindle on the Z stepper axle and stepper mount!
<whitequark>
hozer: don't forget to share the ground of rt5350 and the stepper drivers, this is absolutely crucial to success
<hozer>
you joke about that but it may be necessary for thermal management :P
<hozer>
not that I'm going to try that on rev0.1 though
<hozer>
but to make this work I need a working board with just some ethernet-capable chip in KiCad to start breaking
<hozer>
ooooooohhhh, you know what would be even better than a stepper... a Tesla coil!!!
<hozer>
back to thermals though, has anyone talked about how you'd integrate thermal modeling with KiCad?
<whitequark>
grmbl
<whitequark>
I have sheared a screw while trying to disassemble the spindle mount :/
<whitequark>
or maybe it already was sheared
<whitequark>
what the *fuck*
<whitequark>
the screw surfaces don't match and whatever is screwed there is actually a non-sheared screw
<whitequark>
so basically they fucked up and then covered their mistake with a slightly bigger screw that doesn't actually fix anything
<whitequark>
I'm *so* going to complain
<wpwrak>
(underpowered) well, for example my MDX-15 is WAY weaker than your machine. still sufficient for PCBs and acrylic
<whitequark>
I wanna aluminium and mild steel and copper...
<whitequark>
argh. screwed out that stub. yeah, it's a completely new non-sheared
<wpwrak>
i can do Al, but veeerry sloooowly :)
<whitequark>
screw one mm bigger.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: actually that probably means that you don't, or rather don't do it well
<whitequark>
because the tool rubs Al and it sticks to the tool, quickly destroying it
<whitequark>
what is "quickly" may vary. but chances are that you can make 5 parts before it breaks rather than 500.
<wpwrak>
i use oil to help with that
<whitequark>
I see
<whitequark>
eww.
<wpwrak>
small quantities :)
<whitequark>
O_O
<whitequark>
it is not actually a ballscrew
<whitequark>
it is just some threads in aluminium
<whitequark>
WTF
<whitequark>
well, that explains the poor Z accuracy I had earlier. the reason is, plain and simple, backlash
<wpwrak>
whitequark discovers the ancient asian secrets of low-cost design ;-)
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<whitequark>
wait no, it's not even aluminium
<whitequark>
it is... PTFE?!!!
<whitequark>
WTF
<whitequark>
also apparently the jerky motion is due to linear bearings sticking to the shaft
<whitequark>
do you in general oil linear bearings? they don't seem to have any
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<whitequark>
wtf, they didn't lubricate the linear bearings at all
<whitequark>
and the balls have made a groove in the rails
<whitequark>
pigfuckers
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<DocScrutinizer05>
OHMY!!
<whitequark>
o/
<wpwrak>
"pigfucker", russian expression of respect and admiration, directed towards a culturally, socially, and intellectually superior master craftsman
<wpwrak>
meanwhile, i wonder what is happening in belo horizonte ...
<larsc>
I'm wondering what is happening outside
<wpwrak>
germany vs. brazil is currently 5:0
<zrafa>
wpwrak: in belo horizonte there is just mourn
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I just hope we win tomorrow and wolfspraul does not watch a possible match arg-ger
<wpwrak>
zrafa: remember wolfgang's visit ?
<wpwrak>
ah yes, you do :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I will not forget that for sure
<zrafa>
wpwrak: for ever in my mind.. that match was similar to the today's
<zrafa>
for brazil
<wpwrak>
we MUST win tomorrow. revenge for the 3rd of july 2010 is near ...
<wolfspraul>
zrafa: hey everybody!
<wolfspraul>
of course I'm watching
<wolfspraul>
too bad cannot repeat the asado on werner's rooftop
<wpwrak>
he's alive !!! :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: welcome back ! :)
<wolfspraul>
always here
<wolfspraul>
I keep the server running
<wolfspraul>
5:0 what is that?
<wolfspraul>
has the NSA hacked the stream?
<wpwrak>
zrafa: so you were right - he's watching ... and 5:0
<zrafa>
wpwrak: hey!
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: hey
<zrafa>
!
<wolfspraul>
hi
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: we can repeat the asado on werner's.. but without matches arg-germ
<zrafa>
:)
<wpwrak>
and maybe when it's a little bit warmer. these days it's still a bit chilly.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how's life treating you these days ? still in china ?
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: germany is winning the today's match 5:0 to brazil
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: ah.. you are watching as well
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: life is good, thanks!
<DocScrutinizer05>
hi wolfgang!
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer05: hi!
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy!
<DocScrutinizer05>
what been the bet? 8:1?
<DocScrutinizer05>
might pan out
<wolfspraul>
the nsa inserted another goal into my stream
<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, they already control the matrix
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<DocScrutinizer05>
8:1
<DocScrutinizer05>
no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
does it take a few minutes still?
<wpwrak>
well, the 8 seems quite possible. how things are going, i wouldn't be so sure about the 1, though ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, needs a tad more effort from Brasilians to reach the :1
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe somebody in German defense helps a bit? ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
or Neuer goes pissing
<DocScrutinizer05>
or has a hotdog
<DocScrutinizer05>
or phones his wife
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way there will be a :1
<pcercueiS2>
a 8: maybe :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
DAMN!!!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF! they made it!
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<pcercueiS2>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
now the 8: please!!!
<wpwrak>
at least a little less embarrassing
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I been hoping for that very much. Don't want to see them getting shot by their "fans"
<wpwrak>
to add injury to insult, they'll have to play once again, for 3rd and 4th place
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
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<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise they could hide in some cave for the next 2 years
<DocScrutinizer05>
but now they actually might get shot
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess whole Brasilia is quite shocked, desperate and angry now
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<wpwrak>
i guess it would have been better to lose against colombia ...
<wpwrak>
well, 2014 may be like 2010, but with s/Spain/Argentina/
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<wpwrak>
in 2010, germany defeated argentina sky-high (well, 4:0), but then spain eliminated germany and the netherlands. each time 1:0. that's exactly the magic formula of the argentine team - always win, but only with one goal difference.
<DocScrutinizer05>
could you upload the mp4 to youtube? I seem to have problems playing it in my PC
<wpwrak>
naw, i have no idea what its copyright status is
<DocScrutinizer05>
()Argentina winning) would be even more damage to Brazilian soul, no? Seems Brasilia doesn't like Argentina much, while today the German players seen applause from Brazilian spectators
<DocScrutinizer05>
Those suckers, not giving me my 8th goal! ;-P
<wpwrak>
mplayer should play the video fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
not in streaming mode
<wpwrak>
(more damaging) hmm, we'll see. they may like the idea of swift retribution.
<wpwrak>
ah, streaming sucks anyway :)
<wpwrak>
but yes, it's download-and-play for me, too. my very simple web server doesn't even add the mime decorations you'd need for fancier things.
<wpwrak>
anyway, gotta fetch some beer for tomorrow
<DocScrutinizer05>
mplayer looks cute but as well doesn't play that .mp4
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-07-09 Wed 00:16:22] <DocScrutinizer05> nfc which foobar-dirty is missing on my machine, but that stuff never really works
<DocScrutinizer05>
searching for "codec" is just not specific enough, gives me fun stuff like "libosmocodec0 - Library for Osmocom codec-related utilities"
<DocScrutinizer05>
got "gstreamer-plugins-bad - GStreamer -- ein Framework für Streaming-Media-Plugins" installed