Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<wpwrak>
pity that wolfgang isn't at EHSM. might have been an opportunity to pimp what qi-hw is doing.
<Fallenou>
a qi-hw stand at ehsm would have been great :)
<wpwrak>
i was more thinking of trying to see if, say, CERN could be interested in sponsoring/contracting/... some of out activities
<wpwrak>
so that's less a thing you do at a booth but a thing you discuss over lunch or dinner
<wpwrak>
on the hardware side of qihw, we have a bunch of things, but all of the recent stuff is fairly scattered. so the project isn't quite in a quite booth-worthy state
<wpwrak>
hmm, i'm getting good at that stuff. lately, all the little boards i make just work, maybe except for some minor soldering problems.
<wpwrak>
not so long ago, it took me a number of spins just to kill the severe design flaws
<wpwrak>
(right now: nxp lpc111x mcu and a DC-DC converter. admittedly none of this rocket science, but still)
<wpwrak>
three more major subsystems in this design, though: memory card, a fancy switch, and an acceleration sensor. card holder and sensor are new, the switch i've used before.
<kyak>
practice makes perfect, they say
<larsc>
You may want to think about a change in career if you get worse at something the more you do it ;)
<wpwrak>
naw, that means that you've reached nirvana
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<larsc>
whitequark: you are famous :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: time to get into ceramics? :-)
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<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: hmm, ceramics ?
<kristianpaul>
or was other tech you were interested?
<kristianpaul>
anyway have fun as always :-)
<kristianpaul>
i really like those tiny boards and software tools you made for then
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<wpwrak>
(other tech) ah yes, quantum-chemistry :) still not quite sure how to get into that. it seems the more advanced the tech, the messier the lab
<wpwrak>
(tiny boards) thanks :) using anything specific ?
<kristianpaul>
nope using but i refer a lot to it to friends that get in to electronics using free software
<kristianpaul>
damnm there is a way to rever a git stash drop ?
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<viric>
kristianpaul: does it appear in the reflog?
<kristianpaul>
viric: hi
<kristianpaul>
viric: how i do see that?
<kristianpaul>
git log ?
<viric>
git reflog
<viric>
hello kristianpaul
<kristianpaul>
nope nothing
<viric>
kristianpaul: the bottom of 'man git-stash' includes a section about recovering drops
<kristianpaul>
ahh yeah
<kristianpaul>
humm
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* hozer
pings wolfspra1l
<hozer>
is qi-hardware an actual company, or more the idea of community-driven open source hardware?
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<hozer>
I would like to hear some details on how you got fpgatools working on the lx9 part (and figure out how I can get it to work on an lx25 part)
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<kristianpaul>
lx25 is BIG
<hozer>
yes ;)
<hozer>
well, I have some xc3s200's, but those are a different architecture
<hozer>
I (in theory) have a bitstream of the Leon-sparc core compiled for an LX25
<hozer>
my goal is to be able to compile some usefull CPU design to a bitstream using fpgatools
<wpwrak>
hozer: if you want to help, perhaps you could get/make an lx9 board, familiarize yourself with the existing work, then try to explore the lx25. the structures should be very similar but it's reasonably certain that it'll take a lot of time to map them.
<wpwrak>
and qi-hw is idea/community, no company
<kristianpaul>
qi :-) yeah
<kristianpaul>
hozer: thats quite big
<kristianpaul>
a leon-sparc wow
<kristianpaul>
even in verilog is BIG
<kristianpaul>
for me at least
<kristianpaul>
indeed wpwrak, hozer could try that lx9 and the blinking led
<hozer>
where can I click 'order now' for an lx9 board with a LED to blink ;)
<kristianpaul>
hum well wait and ask wolfspra1l :-)
<kristianpaul>
hozer: are you good with floorplanning?
<hozer>
wpwrak: I'm getting ideas in my head now to write some code to load random bitstreams and see what happens, and automate it
<hozer>
kristianpaul: give me some code and I could figure it out. The problem I have with fpgas is the awful proprietary tools
<kristianpaul>
they are not that awful at all i think
<kristianpaul>
see xilinxs there are lots of docs
<hozer>
there's also 19GB of crap polluting my disk just so I could compile for a single fpga
<kristianpaul>
and tools for lots of specific things like modifying a bitstream for example
<hozer>
and I'm pretty sure the mapper/floorplanner/whatever are all single-threaded
<hozer>
kristianpaul: some of my venom for Xilinx comes from using their tools in 1998, when they were windoze-only
<hozer>
at which point I decided FPGAs will never take off until there is a full-open source toolchain like GCC to go from a high-level languate all the way to bitstream
<hozer>
here's a chip layout question for you: Why does everything have to be a 90 degree angles
<hozer>
What prevents someone from layout out an FPGA with hexagonal cells
<hozer>
err, what prevents someone from designing an FPGA layout where the LUTs/elements/etc are in a hexagonal honeycomb packing?
<wpwrak>
maybe because the old algorithms would break and nobody knows how to make new ones ;-)
<kristianpaul>
how old are those IC primitives?
<hozer>
kristianpaul: you mean all the right angle stuff?
<kristianpaul>
dont know i'm very aware of IC
<kristianpaul>
and CAD related to it
<hozer>
kristianpaul: apt-get install alliance
<wpwrak>
hozer: (order now) xiangfu has the design for an lx9 board, which i think is the same wolfgang is using. not sure how DIY-friendly his current work is, though. he's been experimenting with BGAs ...
<hozer>
you can try laying out some transistors
<kristianpaul>
i'm not*
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: you dont like BGA dont you? :-)
<kristianpaul>
well is not so DIY friendly PCB making yes
<hozer>
I would rather pay someone else to burn BGAs and send me a board and a blinky-led bitstream
<kyak>
excuse me, are you talking about a DIY FPGA board that is based on lx9 and that can blink leds as a proof that it actually works?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i dislike the cost of industrial SMT. and i like a reasonable yield. so yes, no fan of BGAs :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: that would be the idea
<wpwrak>
sort of a starter kit
<wpwrak>
of course, fpgatools for lx45 would be nice. we could use them on milkymist :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: and it's different from starter kits by xlinix because it's going to be open source?
<wpwrak>
that is, unless there are bugs that burn up the chip. we still don't know if that can happen in real life.
<whitequark>
larsc: how am I?
<wpwrak>
kyak: existing starter kits may be an option, yes. depends on whether the comm protocols are suitable, whether their price point is okay, and so on.
<hozer>
wpwrak: you use lx45 for milkymist?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: you should start with questions like "where am i ?" and "what year is this ?"
<hozer>
how many MGT's are there on the chip you use
<whitequark>
wpwrak: was replying to "20:44 < larsc> whitequark: you are famous :)
<wpwrak>
hozer: M1 has an XC6SLX45-2FGG484C
<whitequark>
besides, asking about the year could soon be quite relevant.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: yeah, if the party picks up speed early :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: and what is it going to be at the end of the day? i mean, it's a starter kit for something?
<wpwrak>
kyak: access to (previously) secret knowledge :)
<hozer>
wpwrak: any chance I could talk you into doing a board revision that some multi gigabit transcievers brought out to an Infiniband CX4 connector?
<wpwrak>
hozer: not really :) maybe you could talk sebastien into such things, though
<hozer>
kyak: It's a starter-kit for FPGA development with fpgatools
<wpwrak>
whitequark: may take a while until lars is back. he should now be in the process of getting drunk with the other ehsm folks
<whitequark>
wpwrak: yeah, quite sad actually I didn't make it to ESHM
<whitequark>
first I was busy getting my intl' passport back, then some stupid bureaucraticc crap tried required me to stay here
<kyak>
hozer: i see
<whitequark>
and actually I didn't need that
<hozer>
regarding blowing up chips with bitstreams: I'm quite sure you can configure an LX45 with gigabit serdes to make fire
<whitequark>
*EHSM
<kyak>
is fpgatools a reverse-engineering attempt or it is documented and it is some kind of redesign of xilinx proprietary toolchain?
<larsc>
whitequark: your blogpost about the rpi was mentioned in one of the talks
<kyak>
yeah, i'm looking at it. But still not clear
<hozer>
it looks like cleanroom reverse-engineering
<wpwrak>
kyak: it's reverse-engineering of the bitstream semantics, and then some minimalist toolchain that goes on top
<wpwrak>
kyak: alas, not much documentation
<kyak>
wpwrak: i see.. probably stupid question, but is it legal?
<wpwrak>
kyak: i don't see why it wouldn't be
<hozer>
that probably depends on if you've accepted the Xilinx tool bs end-user agreement
<hozer>
if you have never used (or at least removed all copies of) the tools of the beast, the beast has no power over you :P
<hozer>
this means that all I can do is throw money at the problem and contract someone else to do the reverse engineering :P
<kyak>
ok.. from the other hand side, why is xilinx's toolchain closed? They sell hardware, not the software. Or is it "just because"?
<larsc>
kyak: they sell the software
<larsc>
the tools are key
<kyak>
oh, they do.. ok
<hozer>
the tools hide the hardware bugs
<kyak>
heh, that's nice :)
<larsc>
kyak: there is a free version of the tools, but it has a limited set of features
<kyak>
so it means everyone who plans to base their design on xilinx FPGAs, must also buy their software.. very smart
<hozer>
can the webpack (free version) compile the milkymist SOC?
<larsc>
yes
<hozer>
even then, I think the software is still a loss-leader for the hardware
<kyak>
larsc: is it the same with altera?
<hozer>
the only business reason that makes sense to me is get designed sucked into 'your' tools so they always choose your fpga
<hozer>
designers get sucked into , I mean
<kyak>
it's pretty strange to me anyway, because in MCU world it seems a little bit different.. For example, TI officially supports gcc and Makefiles for some of their DSPs
<wpwrak>
kyak: in the fgpa world, there's a big conspiracy to keep things secret
<wpwrak>
kyak: actually, no everyone is in the cabal. e.g., the cypress psoc 3/5 also have some clpd-like blocks in there, and that one is open.
<wpwrak>
s/no/not/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "kyak: actually, not everyone is in the cabal. e.g., the cypress psoc 3/5 also have some clpd-like blocks in there, and that one is open."
<kyak>
wpwrak: so this is the secret knowledge you refered to :)
<wpwrak>
aye :)
<wpwrak>
now, the next step would be for them to encrypt the bitstream
<wpwrak>
that would attract all the crypto hackers, who'd see this as a highly welcome challenge
<whitequark>
isn't it that Xilinx's bitstream is currently fully documented in the datasheet?
<wpwrak>
and so on. we'll see how far that arms race will go. of course, the sillier the lock-in protection gets, the more attractive it will be to leave the cabal
<kyak>
wpwrak: it sounds like you are almost waiting for that :)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: at some level, yes (at least i think so)
<whitequark>
hozer: bitstream encryption is not the same as lock-in
<hozer>
true
<whitequark>
you do encryption to avoid reverse-engineering by your competitors, no?
<hozer>
wpwrak: cypress... hrrm.. they have a fab a 15 minute train ride away from me....
<whitequark>
it's not like xilinx encrypts something trying to prevent you from developing your own translator
<wpwrak>
kyak: seeing someone repeat other's mistakes reaffirms my faith in humanity :) but yes, xilinx could do the smart thing and just accept the new situation, or even embrace it. depends a bit on how open-minded they are.
<hozer>
um, is there an open-source DFSG-compliant tool that I can program the Cypress PSOC's with??
<kyak>
wpwrak: they and altera own the market, so they probably don't care, since everybode is already in cabal
<wpwrak>
hozer: the psoc 5 have some arm core
<wpwrak>
hozer: the psoc 3 are 8051, so sdcc is your friend
<hozer>
um
<hozer>
sdcc is nice, I'm more interested in the stuff to program the analog gadgets
<wpwrak>
no major witchcraft required :)
<wpwrak>
well, there are registers your code can set ... :)
<wpwrak>
last time i checked, the documentation was very detailed, if a bit overwhelming
<hozer>
frankly, I'd rather layout my own analog chip than screw around writing the code needed to set the registers the right way
<wpwrak>
their application notes are probably all based on their IDE, so they're of limited use. they may still explain the underlying principles, though.
<hozer>
wpwrak: I'd rather have someone else raise the cattle, but I'll buy from a small local producer and not McDonalds
<wpwrak>
bah. i'm right in the middle of the planet's GMO soy empire ;-)
<hozer>
iowa?
<wpwrak>
well, logistically the middle
<hozer>
or brazil
<wpwrak>
buenos aires, argentina
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<hozer>
how is the crop going, anyway...
<hozer>
so... total subject change... is anyone talking about open-source drones for precision farming applications down there?
<hozer>
it's hilarious that you bring up the farming analogy... One of my long-term goals is to be able to fabricate silicon on my farm
<wpwrak>
it got a little wet this spring. we'll see what that does. last season was very good. and the country needed that, because they completely screwed up the fuel industry. so basically all the record earnings from soy exports went right into fuel imports.
<hozer>
because right now I can fix up 20 year old farm equipment for 5% of the cost of a new John Deere and it does 95% of what the new thing does
<hozer>
and in 20 years I'll need to replace random CAN controllers that nobody makes anymore
<whitequark>
reminds me of how wpwrak replied when I posted a link to an electronic caliper
<wpwrak>
hozer: (drones) hellekin may have heard of such things
<hellekin>
hozer: I never heard of such an application yet, but I guess it's a good question for open source ecology.
<wpwrak>
nice. reverse-feeding dc-dc converter draws only some 50 uA. so no problem with setting the board up for programming (via the ben, of course)
<hellekin>
hozer: I asked on #hackerspaces (where brimstone came from) and [thor] there knows about someone using GIS to monitor their farm. Looks like you could go there and have a chat :)
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<wpwrak>
hmm. seems that this year isn't destined to end well :-(
<hellekin>
wpwrak: why?
<wpwrak>
first my dc-dc converter developed a short under a heavy load
<wpwrak>
then, when trying to remove the regulator chip, the air pump of my soldering station stopped working
<wpwrak>
let's see if it just need some cooling down. though it never did that before ...
<wpwrak>
(heavy load) well, still only about 1/5 of the rated maximum output of 1.6 A. but with 15 V input (the chip is good for up to 17 V)
<wpwrak>
the 10 Ohm load resistor heated up nicely, though. so it was good while it worked.
<wpwrak>
and of course, a saturday at 17:30 before three "sundays" is about the perfect time for an equipment failure. @#$%^
<kyak>
maybe it's Fate itself telling you to do something else during these three days
<hozer>
what are you working on
<wpwrak>
kyak: oh, the 1st is already booked for something quite different. hangover removal :)
<wpwrak>
hozer: the controller for a LED-based text (or whatever) display device.
<hellekin>
LOL... So practical :) < wpwrak> kyak: oh, the 1st is already booked for something quite different. hangover removal :)
<wpwrak>
that controller used an atmega168 which is a bit underpowered for the task. and it didn't have a voltage regulator, so the uSD card would freak out with all the voltage jumps
<hellekin>
wpwrak: my girlfriend likes it :)
<hellekin>
not the hangover, but the prototype :)
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
the old one (32 LEDs) is for shaking the stick. the new one is for spinning it at the end of a string. less work, better picture :)
<wpwrak>
i also de-fancies the design a little. the "antorcha" ("torch") has a ben-wpan built in, so images and firmware can be updated over the air. drawback: it needs a ben+atben to do anything useful.
<wpwrak>
s/de-fancies/de-fancied/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "i also de-fancied the design a little. the "antorcha" ("torch") has a ben-wpan built in, so images and firmware can be updated over the air. drawback: it needs a ben+atben to do anything useful."
<hozer>
what is a ben-wpan
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<wpwrak>
the new one has just a uSD slot. so it can carry a lot of images without needing an external device. plus, it's easier to find something that can talk uSD than anything that can talk IEEE 802.15.4
<wpwrak>
hozer: got any small wifi solution that doesn't suck NDA-wise ? :)
<hozer>
um, probably the one we use an GNUradio on an fpga for? ;)
<wpwrak>
well, or suck in all other regards, like that microchip critter that only does 802.11 (no a, b, g, ...)
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<wpwrak>
hozer: that uSD slot costs me cents :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: wait. is there even such a thing as "just" 802.11?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: oh yes :)
<whitequark>
I always thought it was just a name for a family of standards
<whitequark>
>IEEE 802.11 is a set of standards for implementing wireless local area network (WLAN) computer communication in the 2.4, 3.6 and 5 GHz frequency bands.
<hozer>
hrrrm... 3.6... sounds like a good backhaul channel for open-mesh
<wpwrak>
" IEEE 802.11y-2008 extended operation of 802.11a to the licensed 3.7 GHz band. Increased power limits allow a range up to 5,000 m. As of 2009, it is only being licensed in the United States by the FCC."
<wpwrak>
ah, seems that microchip recently made some new modules with more modern characteristics
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<whitequark>
wpwrak: why would you want to use anything by a company which produces PIC and ENC28J60?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: in this case: finding sufficiently open small wlan is difficult
<whitequark>
what about atheros?
<wpwrak>
last time i checked they didn't have anything suitable. all their embedded-friendly stuff was quite closed.
<wpwrak>
it's not only a question of linux drivers but also one of access to chip/modules, design information, and so on
<wpwrak>
e.g., there is a linux driver for the ar6k (the one in the openmoko gta02) but you can't get the chips or hw design information. modules are difficult to source and you don't get firmware updates.
<whitequark>
for at least one chip they published firmware sources
<whitequark>
but updates are a different thing, yeah.
<wpwrak>
compilable and installable firmware sources would solve the update problem :)