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* pabs3
prefers OFTC because Freenode have /mode +i by default
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<lekernel>
whitequark: nice rant. now I can point everyone asking me about rpi to it.
<lindi->
I'd concentrate on the non-free GPU code that you need to boot it
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<whitequark>
lindi-: technically, every Cortex-* chip has proprietary bootrom in some form or another
<whitequark>
I'd say that practically any chip nowadays does
<whitequark>
but yeah, the scheme that rpi has is off limits.
<whitequark>
lekernel: you're welcome.
* xiangfu
tweeted. whitequark's rpi post.
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<LunaVorax>
Hi!
<pabs3>
whitequark: how does LM32 boot?
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<whitequark>
pabs3: there is no silicon LM32 implementations
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<lindi->
indeed
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<lekernel>
whitequark: there are, but they aren't public
<lekernel>
(lm32 license isn't gpl-style)
<whitequark>
lekernel: then I doubt that bootrom would be public either
<Fallenou>
well the bootrom is not a big problem is it ?
<Fallenou>
as long as it is documented
<Fallenou>
you cannot change it anyway
<whitequark>
I agree. I was replying to lindi-
<viric>
rpi was a lot meant to beat in price, isn't t?
<viric>
it
<larsc>
primarily it is a marketing campaign, I guess
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<viric>
a marketing campaing with a product, though
<kyak>
and why exactly would education need a "white box"?
<larsc>
well I guess that always depends on what you want to teach. If you want to teach how to use and program a black-box SoC the rpi is probably not too bad
<larsc>
if you want to teach how a modern SoC works from top to bottom, the rpi is probably not so good
<viric>
I agree
<viric>
a cheap blackbox soc, with enough degrees of freedom for many CS students
<viric>
(and a huge effort marketing it)
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<kyak>
then we agree that rpi is good for teaching how to work with SoC, and bad for teaching how SoC works.
<kyak>
noone in his mind will use rpi to teach to SoC works, so rpi IS suitable for education
<kyak>
s/to/how
<qi-bot>
kyak meant: "noone in his mind will use rpi how teach how SoC works, so rpi IS suitable for education"
<kyak>
hehe
<whitequark>
to everyone about black boxes.
<whitequark>
you see, the RPi isn't the cheapest or most accessible one.
<kyak>
what is a cheaper alternative?
<whitequark>
you have plenty of Allwinner boxes in very different form factors which have cases and accessories and still just a little bit more expensive
<whitequark>
the link in the beginning mentions one.
<whitequark>
I'm absolutely sure that an RPi won't survive a day without a case in a school environment.
<whitequark>
and you need either WiFi (which isn't there), or wired Ethernet infrastructure (which isn't there either, or otherwise you won't need RPis), etc.
<whitequark>
the TCO for RPi is far higher than the board cost.
<whitequark>
so yeah, it's kinda usable in that sense, but what's the point
<kyak>
so feel free to just say that rpi is shit due to technical flaws
<kyak>
but your main point is about opennnes
<whitequark>
for me, the whole "for education" point was about teaching computing from ground up, see also comparison to BBC Micro.
<viric>
the old bbc micro?
<whitequark>
because otherwise I don't see which problem does it solve at all.
<viric>
what is a TCO?
<whitequark>
if you need a cheap computer for schools, there are _plenty_ of options, you hardly need another crappy broadcom board
<whitequark>
TCO = total cost of ownership
<viric>
ok
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<paul_boddie>
whitequark: Nice article! :-)
<paul_boddie>
I agree with you about the relative openness of the BBC Micro, although there were proprietary bits in that, too. But at least they published the schematics.
<whitequark>
raspberry pi schematics are public
<whitequark>
board layout isn't
<viric>
I didn't know the bbc micro was any open
<paul_boddie>
OK, I'm not sure the board layout was public for the BBC Micro, but they at least published a lot of technical details including the BOM in the manual, I think.
<whitequark>
viric: it wasn't, but it was distributed with schematics and BOM
<viric>
ok
<viric>
well, many televisors were distribted with schematics, no? :)
<whitequark>
and given the complexity of computers in that age, it was enough to figure out the rest
<viric>
televisions?
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<whitequark>
so the goal of having even the lower layer accessible was achieved
<viric>
at the valve time, a lot came with schematics :)
<paul_boddie>
I think the ULAs were all proprietary, which was probably less of an inconvenience on the BBC than it was on the Acorn Electron.
<whitequark>
ULA?
<paul_boddie>
Uncommitted Logic Array. The forerunner to FPGA technology.
<paul_boddie>
There's a project and a book about reverse-engineering the ULA in the ZX Spectrum.
<wpwrak>
the war cry of the martians in "war of the worlds" :)
<whitequark>
ah. well, you could use a good microscope
<paul_boddie>
The Electron's ULA takes the essentials from various discrete ICs and combines them into a single component. Acorn did actually document that in a vague "block diagram" kind of way, and the registers were all documented, of course, but replicating it is left as an exercise for the reader. :-)
<paul_boddie>
But I guess that just comparing the amount of technical information in the manuals for those old computers to what you get with the Raspberry Pi shows that they are leagues apart.
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<larsc>
whitequark: that's a big problem in russia isn't it, nobody cares about anything
<whitequark>
larsc: exactly
<viric>
or care on very particular things, and nothing else.
<viric>
It's just a matter of finding what does every russian care about
<whitequark>
viric: looking at people around, I suppose it is "not giving a fuck about anything". so...
<viric>
:)
<whitequark>
well you could definitely distract people enough to strip they from the ability of not giving a fuck. you'd need a second WWII. I doubt you actually want it.
<larsc>
but why is that, is everything so fucked up, that people gave up to care?
<viric>
It could be bad feedback. People not caring on anything because other people don't care on anything.
<whitequark>
yup, positive feedback plays a great role
<larsc>
tragedy of the commons extreme
<whitequark>
larsc: kind of. gave up, yeah
<whitequark>
actually I won't really oppose some country dropping a thermonuclear bomb on moscow, even considering that I'm there
<whitequark>
because I'm absolutely sick of it
<whitequark>
everything around
<larsc>
and no chance of leaving it behind?
<whitequark>
sometimes you can't actually believe that there is a good world out there
<wpwrak>
step 1: find a country that has low immigration barriers. step 2: learn the language. step 3: make enough money for the trip and whatever you need to get started. step 4: escape into the adventure :)
<larsc>
whitequark: that's what you did?
<larsc>
wpwrak:
<wpwrak>
well, it looks a bit like that from the outside :) with less desperation, though
<whitequark>
wpwrak: 1. australia 2. done 3. in progress 4. I won't leave some people behind. I'm trapped here for at least 2 yrs, and who knows what next.
<whitequark>
desperation might be caused by the fact that I'm a bit drunk atm. might. or different causes.
<wpwrak>
ah well, people have endured worse :)
<wpwrak>
of course, 4 adds baggage
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<wpwrak>
grmbl. brain still not working well enough to write a brute-forcer for finding an algorithm that picks the k-th (sorted) value from an unsorted n-vector :-(
<larsc>
are you trying to find something that does it in less than n log n?
<wpwrak>
yup
<larsc>
i don't think that's possible
<wpwrak>
and with very little overhead. has to run a lot of times in an avr.
<wpwrak>
the brute-forcer idea is to try all sequences of comparisons and pick one that yields the decision tree with the lowest depth. should still be doable up to at least n = 5.
<wpwrak>
(compares) yes
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<larsc>
but?
<wpwrak>
oh, just need to wrap my hay-feverish brain around it, that's all
<larsc>
so n and k are fixed?
<larsc>
and you just want the code like above?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
k and n are build-time values
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<wpwrak>
(well, the idea is to make it possible to generate variants with different k and n values. as opposed to manually cooking up such a function, as in my example)
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<mth>
whitequark: is your server melting yet?
<Fallenou>
a lot of moronic comments
<Fallenou>
they don't even understand why it is so chip
<Fallenou>
cheap*
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<Fallenou>
I bet they got the main chip for almost nothing
<Fallenou>
they work there god damn it
<Fallenou>
it's almost a project of the company making the chip
<Fallenou>
and so far they were right to invest on this project
<Fallenou>
so much advertisement
<Fallenou>
blog posts, tweets, facebook posts, conferences
<Fallenou>
I wonder how much it would have cost to pay such a huge advertisement campaign
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<mth>
it depends on what kind of education you're looking for: if you want to teach people application programming, R-Pi is fine, but if you want to teach them low-level programming or hardware design, it has serious problems
<mth>
and if it's just about application programming, then the board should have been sold boxed, imo
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