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<wolfspraul> good morning everybody
<wolfspraul> cladamw: hi! :-)
<wolfspraul> I am reading over the m1 schematics and I am so impressed about their quality!
<rjeffries> This project is new to me. seems very open, but I am not expert on licenses etc.: http://www.ethernut.de/
<cladamw> good morning
<wolfspraul> that is really fun to read through and think about, one can feel it's not the typical sloppy junk with all sorts of loose ends and "don't cares"
<wolfspraul> thank you (and Werner) so much for your excellent work on this
<cladamw> the quality derived from werner's suggestions. :)
<wolfspraul> I have a few small questions here and there, clueless as I am about circuits
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<wpwrak> and adam's relentless work on applying them with great care :)
<wpwrak> cladamw: i'm actually a bit puzzled how you avoided making a lot more mistakes :) i mean trivial things that you just overlook. after a while, i simply don't see my own mistakes anymore. but try as i might, i found almost nothing in your work.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: and thanks :)
<rjeffries> wolfspraul when do you plan to have thge new itereatuion of MM available for customers to oreder?
<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: ir.fpd: added front edge silkscreen (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b88a133
<wolfspraul> ok I start a little
<wolfspraul> on the pdf side, we already know we could be better in technical things like searchable text, links, page titles, what not
<wolfspraul> some things I noticed on the power supply page
<wolfspraul> U11 pin4 "Inhibit" ends in a little 'x'
<wolfspraul> does that mean it's not connected/floating?
<wolfspraul> I would think so but that may not be 100% clear
<wpwrak> all those little "x" mean unconnected
<wolfspraul> yeah
<wolfspraul> ok
<wolfspraul> most of my feedback is about 'understandability'
<cladamw> wpwrak, hehe ... i eventually got used to your rules but still not convinced myself to good quality once I saw all explanations you mentioned. All reasonable !
<wpwrak> it's something you put there manually, so that kicad warn you if you forgot to assign some pins
<wolfspraul> something I noticed in the 5V bottom-left part - D15 says "5.6Vdc" but C142 is just "100n"
<wolfspraul> so the cap doesn't have a unit, but the voltage does
<wpwrak> yes, we use the compact unit-or-multiplier-as-decimal-point notation for the most common values
<wolfspraul> only occured to me because the two are right next to each other
<wpwrak> we only switch to regular SI style for the more exotic parts
<wolfspraul> but not for 5.6Vdc? :-)
<wolfspraul> voltage is not exotic
<wpwrak> R and C are a lot more common than zeners :)
<wolfspraul> I agree to leave the Vdc there btw, but it makes me feel sad about the missins 'farad' :-)
<wolfspraul> sure sure, just saying because I saw those two back to back
<wpwrak> besides, zeners have multiple voltages. so the "dc" does convey information.
<wolfspraul> it felt wrong
<wolfspraul> next one - I noticed those blocks "POWERED" on nets
<wpwrak> do you also feel bad about the missing Omega for resistors ?
<wolfspraul> I'm wondering whether that is more helpful or more confusing
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> I understand the system
<wolfspraul> but you have to admit seeing those "5.6Vdc" and "100n" next to each other feels unbalanced
<wpwrak> so our instincts work in similar ways ;-)
<wolfspraul> it feels like "one of them must be wrong"
<wolfspraul> small detail
<wolfspraul> just my impressions
<wolfspraul> "POWERED"
<wolfspraul> basically we want to clarify where the power lines are
<wpwrak> my instinctive response to 100n is also that it's a little odd. but i have a hard time coming up with a rule that would require an F for caps but no Omega for resistors.
<wolfspraul> a "strong and continuous" signal :-)
<wpwrak> "POWERED" is to help kicad with error checking
<wolfspraul> I find that "POWERED" confusing because I think there must be a wire/net "POWERED" somewhere
<kristianpaul> hi wolfspraul :)
<wolfspraul> is it?
<wolfspraul> until I understand it's more like a comment/note
<wpwrak> you can have pins that are defined as "power input". you must connect them to a "power output"
<wolfspraul> and even then it's quite fuzzy since "powered" is still about electrons and physics as everything else
<wpwrak> that can be a pin marked as such, or some other pin with the POWERED on top
<wolfspraul> again, just describing my confusion
<wolfspraul> but eventually I got it
<wpwrak> it's a confusing concept :)
<wolfspraul> all sorts of lines are marked "POWERED" :-)
<wolfspraul> not sure what to think of this
<wpwrak> kicad makes it even more confusing by just having a mysterious diamond-shaped symbol
<wolfspraul> some devices can be powered using just the energy coming over signal wires...
<wpwrak> at least we got rid of that one :)
<wolfspraul> you could argue this forever
<wolfspraul> power is flowing all over
<wpwrak> think of it as a declaration
<wolfspraul> yeah but very strange one
<wpwrak> sort of a comment for kicad
<wolfspraul> don't know what the point should be
<wolfspraul> you could easily take this concept apart I think
<wolfspraul> thinking about something as simple as a PWM circuit
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<wolfspraul> so first it's not a "powered" line, and then it is? after the lowpass filter?
<wpwrak> i consider it borderline useful, too. but that's what you have to do to get kicad to be happy with your design
<wolfspraul> sure sure
<wolfspraul> just my feedback
<wolfspraul> here's another one...
<wolfspraul> we have a lot of ICs, on the power page for example "TPS76301"
<wolfspraul> a regulator? so I am wondering whether ICs should have 2 more fields in the schematics, just text: 1) type 2) maker
<wpwrak> if you run an ERC on, say, atben, you'll find more weirdness. nasty things i didn't work around. such as "output" pins that connect to ground. (for RF hardening) of course, kicad complains. but it doesn't provide a means for modeling such oddball concepts.
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<wolfspraul> I think chip brands are important, and so might be a quick categorization like "regulator" or "ldo" or whatever
<wpwrak> i wouldn't be opposed to specifying the maker.
<wolfspraul> great
<wolfspraul> how about category/type ?
<wolfspraul> speeds up reading I think
<wpwrak> (maker) because boom may be mislead, too. it does matching on vendor part numbers.
<wpwrak> dunno. it's usually pretty clear what the things do. just a question of recognizing design patterns.
<wolfspraul> oh
<wolfspraul> we continued the thread in 2 channels :-)
<wolfspraul> sorry about that
<wolfspraul> #milkymist then
<wolfspraul> or here?
<wolfspraul> I'm confused now
<wolfspraul> so for ICs - add maker & type
<wolfspraul> ?
<wolfspraul> if possible, I would vote for keeping that "POWERED" box out altogether
<wolfspraul> in the PDF
<wpwrak> if you drop the POWERED, ERC gets messy
<wolfspraul> I don't want to drop a kicad concept
<wolfspraul> I only talk about the PDF I am reading
<wolfspraul> and I describe the things that cause me a little mental bump
<wolfspraul> without any subsequent aha moment
<wolfspraul> more like "urgh" moment
<wolfspraul> I have some more
<wpwrak> i think it's just another concept you have to get used to. i think the "POWERED" is already much better than the diamond. e.g., you guessed right that it's just some sort of comment. you'd have had a much harder time figuring out what the diamond means.
<wolfspraul> in a PWM you first have a pulse, then a DC current
<wolfspraul> right?
<wolfspraul> where does "POWERED" start?
<wpwrak> the critters are in the lower right corner
<wolfspraul> just with my tiny little knowledge of electronics I already kinda swallow hard on this 'powered' thing
<wpwrak> you're over-analyzing :-)
<wolfspraul> good thing we don't document intricate regulator circuits
<wolfspraul> not over-analyzing
<wolfspraul> I run into this, it wastes my brain energy
<wolfspraul> until I mentally dump it into the trash bin
<wolfspraul> because I see those "5V" marks clearly
<wolfspraul> or "1V8"
<wolfspraul> so what could that be?
<wolfspraul> a DC current?
<wolfspraul> then what is "POWERED"?
<wolfspraul> nothing, just confusion
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<wpwrak> perhaps we should have left the diamonds. you may have found them easier to overlook :)
<wpwrak> the bikeshed problem :)
<wolfspraul> and again, I do want to learn. in a PWM, where does 'powered' start?
<wolfspraul> first it's a pulse, right?
<wolfspraul> then it becomes a DC current
<wolfspraul> true?
<wolfspraul> or did I misunderstand this
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<wolfspraul> seems very artificial to me where the "POWERED" starts
<wpwrak> it starts on the net to which you connect to a "power in" pin and which doesn't already connect to a "power out" pin
<wolfspraul> and your example of shunting to ground or whatever in atrf as well
<wolfspraul> this "powered" concept feels wrong to me
<wolfspraul> but the "1V8" are clear
<wpwrak> think of it as a directive to guide ERC
<wolfspraul> it's in the mental trash bin now
<wolfspraul> I don't think about it anymore :-)
<wolfspraul> I can't see it
<wolfspraul> it disappeared! :-)
<wolfspraul> another one
<wpwrak> its presence does not affect what your circuit does. only what complains you get from ERC.
<wolfspraul> we have a nice little table with hw revision on one of the fpga sheets
<wolfspraul> I understand [kicad/erc]
<wpwrak> maybe we should call it "FNORD" then :)
<wolfspraul> but I talk about readability/understandability of the pdf
<wolfspraul> and I think I may have a point there
<wolfspraul> coming from that angle...
<wpwrak> it's a quirky kicad concept
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<wolfspraul> so, that hw revision table
<wolfspraul> I like those little tables
<wolfspraul> on the power supply page, we have a bunch of voltages we are generating
<wolfspraul> wouldn't it be nice to have a little table that lists who the different voltages are for?
<wolfspraul> just high-level, but I think it could help
<wolfspraul> in fact, on the top left side we have a 4V3 = 4.3V? who is that for?
<wpwrak> sure. you commonly have power distribution diagrams. also things like current would be interesting.
<wpwrak> doesn't even have to be part of the schematics
<wolfspraul> yes, current too
<wolfspraul> although we have a few little "4A" etc here and there
<wolfspraul> my idea was just to start with a little table on the power supply page
<wolfspraul> very simple
<wolfspraul> who is the 4V3 for?
<wpwrak> yes, that's the beads. since openmoko, i'm very picky about seeing them properly specified ;-)
<wpwrak> i think it's for audio
<wpwrak> yes, audio
<wolfspraul> ah, ok
<wolfspraul> well then, "little overview table"
<wolfspraul> I have some more
<wolfspraul> on the fpga decoupling page
<wolfspraul> the larger caps are polarized, the smaller ones not?
<wpwrak> this touches on a broader problem: it would be nice if global labels indicated there else the signal appears
<wolfspraul> it there an obvious reason/explanation for that that any EE would know, or should we add a little comment?
<wolfspraul> say for example C88 is polarized (4u7) but C98 (470n) is not
<wolfspraul> maybe this is obvious for more knowledgeable folks
<wpwrak> i'm not even sure if all of the caps drawn as polarized are really polarized. i'm almost certain they're not.
<wolfspraul> well ok
<wolfspraul> then I even may have a point
<wolfspraul> some more
<wolfspraul> on the U22C page (btw I don't know which page is bank 0/1/2/3)
<wolfspraul> I really hate those DNP/0R resistors without explanation
<wolfspraul> feels like some uncertainty/sloppiness/unfinishedness to me
<wpwrak> that's bank 2
<wolfspraul> R158-R161
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<wolfspraul> R158 is 0R DNP, R159 is 0R
<wolfspraul> bah
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> -> xilinx manual ;-)
<wolfspraul> so it has to be like this?
<wolfspraul> can R159 also be DNP?
<wpwrak> M0/M1 set some sort of boot mode. but the details are probably complicated.
<wolfspraul> can all those 4 be removed?
<wolfspraul> ok but you admit that a block of 2*2 resistors, all 0R, two DNP two not is confusing!
<wpwrak> it's really a "go to the current xilinx docs if you need an answer" type of question
<wolfspraul> something like this I mentally want to rip out entirely and understand what is really going on
<wpwrak> i mean, in the general sense
<wolfspraul> or it's a leftover of unfinished/partial works
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<wolfspraul> I have some more :-)
<wolfspraul> hope this is interesting for anyone...
<wolfspraul> similar issue on the nor flash page
<wolfspraul> R60/61, R184
<wpwrak> a 0R / DNP pair is usually clear: we want to be able to generate H or L. there's one choice that's the normal condition for our board. but someone may what to change it. therefore, we add a footprint that allows doing that
<wolfspraul> 60 and 61 are 10k dnp
<wpwrak> think USB_BOOT on the ben
<wolfspraul> 184 is 4k7
<wolfspraul> so those are all pull-up resistors?
<wolfspraul> why is one 4k7 and two are 10k?
<wpwrak> where are they ?
<wolfspraul> and the 10k - is the pullup needed or not?
<wolfspraul> those are the ones we fiddled around with forever in the reset battles :-)
<wolfspraul> nor flash page
<wolfspraul> but I see those 3, and it looks confusing/unfinished
<wolfspraul> if r60/r61 are dnp now, can we remove them?
<wolfspraul> no pullup needed?
<wpwrak> on which page are they ?
<wolfspraul> I may misunderstand it of course
<wolfspraul> u9 nor flash
<wpwrak> thanks ! ah yes, they're indeed a bit odd
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<wolfspraul> some more
<wolfspraul> C127 on that page, value is 1u, but not polarized
<wolfspraul> the bigger ones before were polarized, the smaller ones not
<wolfspraul> what is the cutoff/reason?
<wpwrak> i think polarization is quite arbitrary
<wolfspraul> just saw it. C128 is 100n C127 is 1u
<wolfspraul> well
<wpwrak> as i said, several caps drawn as polarized probably have components that aren't
<wolfspraul> should we remove the + then?
<wolfspraul> in some use cases the difference can be quite dramatic though I would think
<wpwrak> i don't know what rules adam applies. in the end, i does't bother me too much, since they're nearly equivalent
<wolfspraul> ok
<wolfspraul> next one first
<wpwrak> (nearly equivalent) in the cases we have here. you're right that there are situations where things are less obvious.
<wolfspraul> on the usb a/b page, some more wonderful DNP resistors
<wpwrak> DNP can mean a number of things :)
<wolfspraul> and even better, a note saying "full speed: mount R168" "low speed: mount R169"
<wolfspraul> now that is confusing
<wolfspraul> do we really mean a difference between full and low?
<wolfspraul> or between host and slave?
<wolfspraul> why is that comment/dnp resistors missing on the usb c/d and e/f pages?
<wpwrak> design variants, things where we want to leave a plan b open, and then stuff we simply leave to the user to equip
<wpwrak> there's a lot of the latter in audio
<wolfspraul> low and full?
<wolfspraul> with resistor values?
<wolfspraul> what do we mount on R4 then?
<wolfspraul> both dnp?
<wolfspraul> I don't get it
<wolfspraul> it's just confusing
<wolfspraul> so with both dnp, neither low nor full with work?
<wolfspraul> something is not clear there
<kristianpaul> dammit, never close kicad even you already saved... for some reason things get messy...
<kristianpaul> at least eeschema..
<wolfspraul> those are 1k5 (dnp) resistors on the D+ and D- lines? huh?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: it's for configuring the port for a full or low-speed device
<wpwrak> totally unsupported by gateware and firmware, of course :)
<wolfspraul> I don't get it
<kristianpaul> close by powering off computer*
<wolfspraul> DNP means the circuit is open there?
<wolfspraul> it connects to 3V3!
<wpwrak> the pull up/down configuration depends on whether you have a host, low-speed device, and full-speed device
<wolfspraul> I don't get it, sorry
<wpwrak> we have only host ports, hence only the pull-downs but no pull-ups
<wpwrak> that's how USB works :)
<wpwrak> what this circuit does is give you the choice to configure it for any of these modes, should you choose to do so
<wolfspraul> maybe we should write "full speed client" and "low speed client"?
<wolfspraul> right now one could very easily think this somehow affects full and low speed in host mode
<wolfspraul> but I think it doesn't
<wpwrak> we could add a comment that it's for configurint the port as a device, yes
<wolfspraul> it's just confusing, to me
<wolfspraul> device, sorry
<wolfspraul> host and device
<wpwrak> no, host mode is unaffected
<wolfspraul> but that's not obvious
<wpwrak> it's a common source of confusion :)
<wpwrak> such is life in usb land :)
<wolfspraul> so then let's write "FULL SPEED DEVICE" and "LOW SPEED DEVICE" instead
<wpwrak> when i first saw it, i thought someone had misunderstood the USB spec
<wolfspraul> nah come on, that one word can help clarify things. it's not impossible to explain...
<wpwrak> only then did i realize these were meant as configuration alternatives
<wolfspraul> the lack of clarifying "device" confused me
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: if you do that, do at least a few sync first :)
<wolfspraul> that's it!
<wolfspraul> 1. 'powered' designator
<wolfspraul> 2. add maker and type to ics
<wolfspraul> 3. small table to clarify power users and current
<wolfspraul> 4. clarify decoupling caps polarization
<wpwrak> i wouldn't touch "powered". it's a cost of living with kicad
<wolfspraul> 5. R158-R161 could be documented better/cleaned up
<wpwrak> but you can try to make a patch that lets eeschema omit things like POWERED and submit it ;-)
<wolfspraul> 6. same for R60/R61
<wolfspraul> 7. usb device config resistors could be documented better
<wolfspraul> that's it
<wpwrak> though it may be tricky to get that right. there are other pieces of meta-data you don't want to suppress. and you'd also have to follow the wires, maybe convert junctions, too. etc. it's a bit of work.
<wolfspraul> I feel most strongly about #2 and #3 in this
<wolfspraul> god no, I won't touch that [powered]
<wolfspraul> then I think #4, and #5/#6 should also be possible to improve slightly
<wpwrak> (((-:C
<wolfspraul> #7 is just adding one word
<wolfspraul> #1 is just ranting
<wolfspraul> but overall the schematics are a joy to read!
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<wolfspraul> cladamw: can you help with a power diagram/table?
<wolfspraul> this concludes my feedback :-)
<wpwrak> kewl. not too bad :)
<wolfspraul> thanks
<wolfspraul> if even I can read that stuff, it's already written for dummies
<wpwrak> hehe :)
<wolfspraul> the IC maker/type could help even more
<wolfspraul> or, at least in the online PDF, some cool little links to wikipedia one can click on to find out about some background concepts
<wolfspraul> but those are just bells and whistles, plus the PDF has some serious technical shortcomings like text search
<wolfspraul> ability to follow wires by clicking on them
<wolfspraul> etc.
<wpwrak> some concepts are difficult to convey because they depend on a lot of background. just like that usb pull business. it's a very common source of confusion everywhere. but yes, we can make it a little bit more accessible on our side.
<wpwrak> (pdf) all things that really need support from kicad itself
<wolfspraul> as I said I feel most strongly about my #2 and #3
<wolfspraul> those are really valuble
<wolfspraul> valuable
<wolfspraul> the small cleanup is always nice too
<wolfspraul> polarity, dnp resistors, etc
<cladamw> wpwrak, wolfspraul do you mean like this ? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_Power_Tree
<wpwrak> another thing that would be nice to clear up would be to have chip pin numbers on all the bypass caps :) we have that now for the RAM
<wolfspraul> yes, although that also doesn't include the mystery 4V3 user :-)
<wolfspraul> but yes, that's what I mean just integrated nicely as a little table or so in the "power supply" schematics page
<wpwrak> and it was a pretty good lesson - before these things weren't there, which led to a good amount of weirdness and miscommunication with layout. fortunately, harmless. this time.
<wolfspraul> right now we have a set of regulators and circuits prepping this or that voltage
<wolfspraul> but little info on where this goes, current, overview
<wolfspraul> definitely [chip pin numbers for bypass caps]
<wpwrak> maybe the power tree needs updating. i see that it still has that ancient noisy codec
<wolfspraul> maybe we can move it into the schematics?
<wolfspraul> remove from wiki?
<wpwrak> that should be possible, yes
<cladamw> not to remove it now, i think that i can use KiCad editor to edit a new power tree.
<cladamw> a power tree i can equip them with power net name, chip reference, circuit block and etc.
<cladamw> regards to chip pin numbers with bypass caps, i'll also clean them up.
<wpwrak> i would put the circuit block before the chip reference. less intimidating :)
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<cladamw> the chip pin name don't need to be accurately same as current m1rc3 if later m1r[4..n] producing.
<cladamw> for examples two 100nF placed to pin 1 and pin 19, layout guy can place whatever 100nF to pin1 or pin19,
<cladamw> we made unclear and unreadable in previous runs.
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: no it not
<kristianpaul> i still deleted same components
<kristianpaul> save
<kristianpaul> rsync
<kristianpaul> close kicad
<kristianpaul> no poweroff
<kristianpaul> re-open
<wpwrak> (pin 1 vs. 19) well, it shouldn't cause much work for the layout guys either way :)
<kristianpaul> and got EESchema file text load error at line 788
<cladamw> (circuit block) wpwrak ?
<kristianpaul> hmm
<kristianpaul> and now there are lots of missing components on the screen...
<wolfspraul> cladamw: yes, good!
<wolfspraul> of course, first make a new and clean version in kicad before removing the wiki one
<wolfspraul> now that we have kicad, we have a better place for this info than the wiki
<wpwrak> cladamw: i mean "Audio LM4550BVH" looks nicer than "LM4550BVH Audio".
<wolfspraul> before we needed the wiki to have any place outside of the dark and closed AD files :-)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: did you use a weird character in some name ?
<cladamw> wpwrak, okay. :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: let me see, but this wasnt happening before the component cutoff..
<kristianpaul> nope
<kristianpaul> just can see 3 components right now afaik,
<kristianpaul> the rest wires and nodes..
<wpwrak> can you paste line 788 and its context ?
<kristianpaul> is empty..
<kristianpaul> aparently
<wpwrak> and what is around it ?
<kristianpaul> is very curious, after check the diff with tig, i noticed new text when i just removed compoments why?..
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<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: tsop.fpd: added new TSOP module (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/dfcaa9d
<kristianpaul> hum
<kristianpaul> looks like a bug
<kristianpaul> i just deleted one block now and the same error popup..
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: it gets better: pick a text comment. double-click to edit the text. delete it. then press OK. you'll get "Empty text !". and then kicad segfaults ;-)
<wpwrak> (at least here)
<kristianpaul> dont cheerme up that much ;)
<wpwrak> perhaps you can recover it by putting some text in the empty line with a text editor
<kristianpaul> i'll try found root cause
<kristianpaul> by trial and error :)
<cladamw> wpwrak, would you mind if I outline frame to your header or he10 module ?
<cladamw> s/I/I add
<qi-bot> cladamw meant: "wpwrak, would you mind if I add outline frame to your header or he10 module ?"
<kristianpaul> or try another versio perhaps? this is 2011-05-25
<cladamw> wpwrak, are you qi-bot ? hehe ...
<wpwrak> (mind) not at all. i've just been lazy :)
<kristianpaul> putting some text in the empty line seems works, but how many empty lines left :)
<kristianpaul> perhaps i need sed help
<cladamw> wpwrak, also since a dedicated pin number 1, 2, or n, (n-1) there would be good. :)
<wpwrak> you mean to mark #1 ? the default kicad lib uses quare pins for #1, round for the rest
<kristianpaul> argh, EESchema file undefined object at line
<kristianpaul> better replace not remove empty spaces..
<cladamw> wpwrak, i'd like a feature for Fped. i.e. place number (txt) in outline, can it be now ?
<wpwrak> no, it can't do text
<cladamw> Can KiCad do #n, #n-1 ?
<wpwrak> lemme see ...
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<cladamw> hmm .... i was thought your pin# can be shown inside solder paste in Fped, but can't add number text in outline in the future ?
<wpwrak> yeah, the module editor has text
<cladamw> hmm ... alright.
<wpwrak> i only show the pin number as non-physical text (i.e., something pcbnew shows but that doesn't go to the gerber)
<wpwrak> the problem with supporting text that goes to the gerber would be matching kicad's fonts and such. tricky.
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<cladamw> if yours(Fped) can do, that would be super ole.
<kristianpaul> ha
<wpwrak> i'll put it on my to do list for 2013 :)
<kristianpaul> i just save it as another name (no mod) and same error
<cladamw> wpwrak, tks a lots ! not bad. :-)
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<kristianpaul> hmm
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: reset reachable_pkg in the instantiation process and restore on inst_revert (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/59b90b3
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<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: tsop.fpd: added 28 and 32 pins option (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/d0f16e9
<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: added to-252 link (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b8f4df3
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/qfp-gen.fpd: QFP modules generated from IPC-7351 formulas (WIP) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/6a24272
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b977bc9
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<wolfspraul> ah, another small schematics comment
<wolfspraul> this one about atben - there is a crystal X1 16MHz 8pF 40ppm ESR=80R
<wolfspraul> maybe we could relax those specs a little so nobody gets stuck finding *exactly* such a crystal
<wolfspraul> is that possible?
<wolfspraul> for example the ESR - probably anything above or below 80 should be ok, no?
<wolfspraul> or the ppm, if it's 30 or 20, what would be the problem?
<wolfspraul> if that info is missing then someone may not know what to do with a part they found with say ESR 100...
<wpwrak> oh, that's a maximum value. like a resistor tolerance of 5% doens't mean we'd reject a 1% resistor
<wolfspraul> ok but we can be more helpful
<wpwrak> the capacitance must match C10 and C11, though
<wolfspraul> the ESR is a minimum or maximum?
<wolfspraul> 40ppm is the precision, right? if so, would <= 40 ppm be more helpful?
<wolfspraul> I just want to convey good positive vibes to the reader, less worries :-)
<wpwrak> maximum. but i wonder where it comes from ...
<wpwrak> i think 40ppm is pretty unambiguous :)
<wolfspraul> the point is to make those specs more reader/user *friendly*
<wolfspraul> a higher precision crystal will work as well, so why not write "<= 40 ppm"?
<wolfspraul> if the schematics should be an exercise in "think yourself", then I can also have a lot of ideas how to achieve that, of course :-)
<wpwrak> ah, the ESR is from the transceiver data sheet. so far so good. but they actually relaxed the spec. now it's <= 100 Ohm
<wolfspraul> a large part of the industry seems to believe in that model anyway
<wolfspraul> how good that they say <= :-)
<wpwrak> (higher precision) because it's obvious ? :) that's a bit like foo++; /* increment foo */
<wolfspraul> so I think we should do that too, obvious or not, if it helps people more quickly navigate around the specs and focus their time on where it matters to them
<wolfspraul> you could say "all crystal ppm are meant <=", but then it's better to just write <= there imho
<wpwrak> naw, if you fill the schematics with trivial junk, people will not notice the places where you actually have something to say
<wolfspraul> two characters
<wolfspraul> ESR is <= 100R now?
<wpwrak> will be, once i finish dinner :)
<wolfspraul> I agree about not repeating obvious/redundant information
<wolfspraul> but then you want to invite people and accelerate their first steps
<wolfspraul> ESR= is a good example of potential time waste
<wpwrak> yes, the ESR is bad
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/atben.sch, atusb/atrf.sch: correct and clarify ESR of X1 (reported by Wolfgang Spraul) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/42f1a78
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<Ayla> hi
<Ayla> is there a way to tell GCC that a branch will probably be used more often than another one?
<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: to.fpd: added TO-252 package (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/9762038
<qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/983ee35
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<Ayla> __builtin_expect()
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<wpwrak> Ayla: there is a builting for it. linux uses it a lot: http://kerneltrap.org/node/4705
<Ayla> yep, I knew it on linux
<Ayla> but linux uses likely() / unlikely()
<Ayla> (which are macros)
<wpwrak> the article also describes what's underneath
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<mth> Ayla: this is what we use in openMSX:
<mth> #if __GNUC__ > 2
<mth> #define likely(x) __builtin_expect((x),1)
<mth> #define unlikely(x) __builtin_expect((x),0)
<mth> #else
<mth> #define likely(x) (x)
<mth> #define unlikely(x) (x)
<mth> #endif
<Ayla> I used something like that
<Ayla> but why __GNUC__ > 2?
<mth> because GCC 2 doesn't have the feature and non-GCC compilers probably don't have it either (not with identical syntax, anyway)
<mth> I hope no-one still uses GCC 2, but we've had this code for a long time
<Ayla> ok
<mth> I should check how it is expanded for clang
<mth> because they do support many GCC extensions
<Ayla> want my clang toolchain for mips? ;)
<mth> I can check on OS X
<mth> I do want clang for MIPS at some point, but let's not get distracted by that right now
<Ayla> yes
<Ayla> we have only 3 days left ;)
<mth> we should make a list of issues and priorities
<mth> maybe in the other channel would be more on-topic
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<wolfspraul> uwe_mobile__ uwe_ - congrats on your sigrok project btw! that's shaping up really nicely
<wolfspraul> I recently bought a FX2-based CWAV AX clone, now trying out sigrok and the free firmware
<wolfspraul> maybe I also give the Hantek dso-2090 a shot, but I understand support for that is still kinda wip
<wolfspraul> but it's a great project, good luck!
<wolfspraul> sigrok I mean :-)