Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<rjeffries>
CES tidbit in "cheap tablets" category: Ainol Novo 7 Paladin $110, runs Ice Cream Sandwich, Ingenic JZ4770 Xburst, 1GHz; GPU: GC860, 512MB and 8GB, up to 32GB via microSD, 7 inch LCD display with resolution of 800×480
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<zrafa_>
for the nanonte.. via ubb or something :)
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<kristianpaul>
ah, yes i saw it but too lazy having a M1 next to me..
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<zrafa_>
so we can play some games or use some monitor with nn. Of course. THere is the werner vga output, but maybe it could be more generic
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<kristianpaul>
zrafa_: yes werner's software defined vga still have some potencial tought
<kristianpaul>
and even the ubb port it self, i still want to have time to see what sdr related tasks can it do
<wpwrak>
hmm, low frequency tasks. maybe you can make an AM radio transmitter ;-)
<kristianpaul>
yes i was thiking something like that !
<kristianpaul>
why not? :)
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<zrafa_>
can we open orcad files with linux?
<kristianpaul>
sounds unlikely at least it have a floss replacement
<kristianpaul>
or a orcad binary that just run on Linux ;)
<wpwrak>
open .. sure :)
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<DocScrutinizer>
ooh, dental floss
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<cladamwa>
DocScrutinizer, hi thanks a lot for your great check and idea on else. ;-)
<cladamwa>
DocScrutinizer, wpwrak have really given much thought to the matter (J23 to add AUDIO_AGND), thanks !
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<wpwrak>
yeah, it sounds like a good change to me
<cladamwa>
wpwrak, okay.
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<DocScrutinizer51>
YW, glad to help :-D
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<DocScrutinizer51>
cladamwa: you might want to add some of your nice varistors to line-out jack as well
<cladamwa>
DocScrutinizer, yeah... i forgot to mention this too. thanks for this reminds. ;-)
<cladamwa>
DocScrutinizer, one topic for us now will be: we're also planning to take consideration about adding insert/detection idea in LINE-IN/LINE-OUT connector. (i.e. trying to let s/w can have reaction on insert/plug-out), so maybe in the end we'll have changes on both later. Any idea from you? ;-)
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<cladamwa>
DocScrutinizer51 we'll consider if add that feature soon. i may ask for your help again. ;-D
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<wolfspraul>
wow there are so many things in motion now
<wolfspraul>
I acquired the entire remaining stock of atben and atusb from tuxbrain!
<wolfspraul>
45 atben, 33 atusb
<wolfspraul>
have to get some fire under this :-)
<kyak>
interesting - does it mean a higher demand for atusb than for atben?
<kyak>
doesn't make sense :)
<mstevens>
wolfspraul: what happpened? did tuxbrain give up on the project?
<kyak>
it;s a pity that the lot wasn't sold anyway -\
<wolfspraul>
not sure, I have a hard time reaching tuxbrain, I think the shop became a part-time project
<wolfspraul>
so he is focusing on the Ben NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
I gladly buy those units because I was unsuccessful in buying some recently ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and I pay him in NanoNotes
<kyak>
wolfspraul: why buy them, when you can just produce them? :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: not sold yet
<wolfspraul>
that's a run with another whole bunch of overhead
<wolfspraul>
but i am working really 100% on and over capacity everywhere
<kyak>
true..
<pabs3>
wolfspraul: many things in motion, sounds like someone should write an article about Qi happenings for LWN?
<wolfspraul>
I gladly gladly take those boards
<wolfspraul>
pabs3: has lwn ever reported about Milkymist?
<wolfspraul>
they should
<wolfspraul>
it's a bona fide attempt to create a true collaborative effort below the Linux kernel, in IC design
<wolfspraul>
are you an editor/reporter at lwn? or you know one?
<wolfspraul>
I think we need a quality story, and an editor there needs to be seriously interested
<wolfspraul>
it's not a hush-hush marketing thing, where we have to sell some new thingie before everybody realizes the hype is over
<wolfspraul>
if an editor at lwn would be interested, I would be more than happy to provide him or her with a review unit, and unlimited time to answer questions :-)
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<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul, atusb/ben !!
<kristianpaul>
great
<kristianpaul>
I can buy a combo and send it by cheap postal mail :)
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<wpwrak>
(atusb/atben) great indeed !
<wpwrak>
kyak: there were fewer atusb than atben to start with. about 20 fewer units produced (due to different pcb panelization) and he had three atusb rejects while all atben tested okay
<wpwrak>
kyak: so they sold roughly at the same pace, though not everyone bought them in an 1:1 ratio
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<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: can i buy atusb&atben with bicoin? how much it will? :)
* kristianpaul
have some bitcoins saved
<wolfspraul>
sure you can, but I don't have them yet, so please give it some time
<kristianpaul>
ah, sure np
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<kyak>
hm
<kyak>
believe it or not, when i plug in the jtag cable which came with m1 into my laptop, it powers off momentarily; i have to remove the battery to be able to turn it on again
<kyak>
wolfspraul: any idea? :)
<kyak>
i assume that the cable is shortcut and it triggers some protection on laptop side
<kyak>
can i use just any mini USB cable with m1 jtag port?
<wpwrak>
basically yes
<kyak>
now, when linux starts to swap and i can't do much, i will just insert this cable instead of holding the poweroff button for some seconds :)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<kyak>
this cable can also be used a DoS exploit
<kyak>
i will just give it to some manager at work
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<whitequark>
kyak: not all notebooks will detect that gracefully
<kyak>
yeah, i hope so!
<kyak>
burn, burn!!
<wpwrak>
just stay out of the blast radius :)
<kyak>
i think i will get an extension cable :)
<kyak>
ok, i know. i will lable it as "cable of death" and leave in the eyesight. And observe!
<kyak>
label even
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<kyak>
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 20b7:0713 Qi Hardware Milkymist JTAG/serial
<kyak>
hm, this is neat..
<kyak>
again, rolling releases win (usb database up to date)
<wpwrak>
i just wish the database was updated more frequently
<wpwrak>
(at the source)
<kyak>
wpwrak: where i can look for jtag commands?
<wpwrak>
you mean jtag<Enter> help<Enter> ?
<kyak>
he :) no, i mean, what commands i can issue to the board? like, find the revision etc?
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<wpwrak>
mmh. dunno about revision. should be possible if you do a boundary scan. should be interesting to figure out how to do that :)
<kyak>
ok, i might not understand completely how jtag can be used for m1.
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<wpwrak>
we use it mainly for flashing
<wpwrak>
occasionally for booting
<wpwrak>
debugging and such go through other channels
<wpwrak>
and we don't do boundary scans as part of production testing (yet ?)
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<whitequark>
kyak: a lot of them will just turn off
<whitequark>
and will still work even without re-inserting the battery
<whitequark>
you have some chances of frying USB ports, through
<whitequark>
I wonder if there are any notebooks crappy enough to make battery explode in such a condition
<whitequark>
I think no, but you can never know for sure..
<wpwrak>
try tablets. that's where the race to the bottom is at these days
<whitequark>
nah
<whitequark>
tablets are useless
<whitequark>
... by the way. latest news from russian sonar company.
<whitequark>
my friend has agreed to write a firmware for them
<whitequark>
so they assembled a prototype and delivered it to him
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<whitequark>
he turned it on and it did not work, because the main LDO was not present, because they accidentally placed the LDO and its tantalum cap on the same place on board
<whitequark>
ok, he returned it and they wire-wrapped the LDO and the cap
<whitequark>
he turned it on and the cap has exploded, because it was reversed
<wpwrak>
but it was cheap ! ;-)
<whitequark>
he returned it and they soldered it the right way
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
the CPU had none of its bypass caps soldered
<whitequark>
so it was pretty unstable
<whitequark>
the quartz has not had any load caps, too
<whitequark>
ok, he wire-wrapped some all over the board
<whitequark>
the LCD did not work afterwards
<whitequark>
because:
<whitequark>
the CPU has 4 VDD pins
<whitequark>
the board author has connected one to the power source
<whitequark>
and other to the power pin of LCD
<whitequark>
others were left floating
<whitequark>
ok, he wire-wrapped some more wires
<whitequark>
... the tantalum cap near the lcd has exploded.
<whitequark>
guess why.
<wpwrak>
i hope they paid him through all this
<whitequark>
he soldered another one correctly
<wpwrak>
because it's pretty clear that this contraption will never actually run
<whitequark>
and the switching supply has begun to heat. instead of projected ~250mA it could only deliver 25mA or such
<whitequark>
because the author did not bother to look the correct value for inductor
<whitequark>
... ok, I think he wire-wrapped more stuff
<whitequark>
the LCD still did not work
<whitequark>
it had 5 passive components in a row which should have been mounted near it
<wpwrak>
that;s what you get when you outsource your engineering to the last tribe of homo habilis
<whitequark>
there were only three
<whitequark>
and, er
<whitequark>
I do not know what was on his mind
<wpwrak>
nothing ? :)
<whitequark>
but it has been looking like he just threw them on the pcb and poured some solder from the top
<whitequark>
they weren't even connected to the corresponding pads
<whitequark>
that is
<whitequark>
a cap C1 was connected between a R1 and R2 pad
<whitequark>
*pads
<wpwrak>
cargo cult engineering at its best
<whitequark>
I think there were some more exploding tantalum caps
<whitequark>
can he ever mount them correctly at all?!
<wpwrak>
i suoopse he did all the research for sport. because it's already obvious after the first 2-3 errors that this can't work.
<whitequark>
or maybe test the fucking board. just for lulz, you know
<wpwrak>
why test it if you know it doesn't work ?
<whitequark>
well. they somehow are able to deliver working product with their way
<whitequark>
I dunno how
<wpwrak>
i doubt they do :)
<whitequark>
atmegas can actually withstand the VDD rape
<whitequark>
he did it for last like 5 years for so and "it worked" (quote)
<whitequark>
they really do. I've seen that myself
<whitequark>
they sell it
<whitequark>
it fails
<whitequark>
they sell some more of "it"
<whitequark>
it sometimes works.
<whitequark>
accidentally, I presume
<whitequark>
and they pay him, ahem
<wpwrak>
yeah, one million monkeys ...
<whitequark>
$300 a month
<whitequark>
that's low even for Russia
<wpwrak>
he must be desperate :)
<whitequark>
nope
<wpwrak>
or he likes slumming
<whitequark>
he has his own sofrware business
<whitequark>
which is quite profitable (I know as I made half of its infrastructure)
<wpwrak>
so he doesn't care. fine.
<whitequark>
it's just fun to watch
<whitequark>
like Dilbert in real life
<wpwrak>
anyway, i was talking about tablets that actually work at a basic level. yet may still harbour surprises.
<whitequark>
but a little bit more stupid
<whitequark>
(tablets) yeah, I know how they're done
<whitequark>
(homo habilis) roflmao, yes. /me has added that to a list of his quotes
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<whitequark>
have I mentioned he considers 1206 components "quite small" ?
<whitequark>
80% of their "production" device just does not work from the very beginning
<whitequark>
which is expected at least
<whitequark>
*devices
<whitequark>
so they throw it out
<whitequark>
*them
<whitequark>
they only use commercial atmegas. for the device which very purpose is working on below zero temperatures
<whitequark>
they just check if they work in a reactor with controllerd temp
<whitequark>
*controlled. sigh. this stuff has quite a negative impact on my English skills.
<whitequark>
I just can't type correctly while laughing out loug.
<whitequark>
... oh crap. I'm sure you will appreciate the following engineering solution
<whitequark>
he neeeded to make a peak detector
<whitequark>
so he took an amp (not an op-amp, but an old Soviet plain fixed-coefficient amp)
<whitequark>
then he adjusted the amplification so it would saturate at any signal > 0 (the ultrasound sensor sends voltage spikes in range of mVs)
<whitequark>
and that kind of works as a detection
<whitequark>
now, try to guess how he wants to compute the amplitude of the input signal
<whitequark>
as a quiz.
<whitequark>
*measure, not compute
<wpwrak>
why measure ? put something. resistor, inductor, chewing gum, whatever. if it works, great. if it fails, throw it away and try again.
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<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
the amp is connected to the power rail via a resistor
<wpwrak>
let me guess - that's a government-funded company with an inexhaustible money supply ?
<whitequark>
and he suggests to use ADC in uC to measure the voltage drop, as the current is somewhat proportional to the height of the spike
<whitequark>
nope. that's a private-owned company
<kyak>
whitequark: what is the name of this company? :)
<qi-bot>
zedstar: w00t! many hours hackage and finally good to see guile2 running on uclibc+openwrt @jnbagale @antoniodariush @qihardware #nanonote ( 167292048486051840@jptmoore - 14s ago via web )
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<kyak>
whitequark: well, at least your friend is lucky enough to get the "hardware" before he started working on firmware
<whitequark>
kyak: I'd suggest the name "failware"
<kyak>
ha! :)
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<Artyom>
kristianpaul: hi
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<kristianpaul>
Artyom: hey
<Artyom>
I've noticed that you were looking for me ;)
<kristianpaul>
yup time ago..
<kristianpaul>
i cant make namuru core run on my soc, since i changed to bram like design..
<whitequark>
wpwrak: wanna look at their flagship product which allows them to stay alive? it's a $35k water something analyzer, which they make and sell a few ones a year
<kristianpaul>
i'll sinthesize old version again and see
<Artyom>
When I started to play with MM SoC + my_cores I faced similar problems. So at first I added simple bram core - in order to test BIOS writing/reading commands on the correlator-address... When I fixed all bugs - I started to experiment with
<Artyom>
correlator core
<kristianpaul>
yeah i wanted to skip that part :)
<kristianpaul>
but i also created a very simple core derivated from csrbrg when i started that one..
<kristianpaul>
anyway
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: had you able to write to the wiki of qi-hardware?
<kristianpaul>
I was thinking in a roadmap with tasks and etc..
<Artyom>
I haven't tried it yet... I will experiment this week with it...
<kristianpaul>
Bte had you tried all PRN codes from namuru datasheet work?
<kristianpaul>
considering u have a gps simulator :D
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<Artyom>
no... I think it's easier to do with verilog-simulator ;)
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<Artyom>
If you would ask this question half a year ago - I would agree to test with simulator. But now I think that if hdl-simulator can be used then it must be used...
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: what about a nother namuru +milkymist combo + dac that generatate the simulated gpa signal?
<kristianpaul>
what you think about it*
<kristianpaul>
too elaborate ?
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<Artyom>
Do you think to make something like GPS-simulator?
<kristianpaul>
just intelually curios for now yes
<kristianpaul>
curious*
<kristianpaul>
intelectually*
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<Artyom>
Something simple? Like generating only one or two satellites signals?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<Artyom>
Or more intellectual? To generate signal that can be used to calculate position
<kristianpaul>
exactly
<Artyom>
What is the aim of such a project? To test gps equipment? Or some other reasons?
<kristianpaul>
basically test equipment
<kristianpaul>
gps simulators are prety expesinve
<kristianpaul>
buy anyway just curious
<Artyom>
If you keep in mind testing of GPS equipment then it's easier to make device that can record and play back GPS signal
<kristianpaul>
had you seens something un-unual in the pastebin?
<Artyom>
Such a toys also exist and cost much cheaper then simulators
<kristianpaul>
record and playbak sounds good to
<kristianpaul>
how are they called?
<kristianpaul>
the toys yop said
<kristianpaul>
btw do you plan add glonass support to osgps?
<LunaVorax>
Good evening everyone!
<kristianpaul>
is okay fot you work with scilab for now?
<kristianpaul>
evening LunaVorax
<LunaVorax>
:)
<LunaVorax>
My girlfriend got her kryoflux a few days ago, she loves it already!
<kristianpaul>
gotta go, greak is off back to work..
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<Artyom>
I didn't find errors in your code...
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<Artyom>
yes, I definitly want to add GLONASS support to osgps...
<Artyom>
sorry, what did you mean about scilab?
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<qwebirc61666>
Is It Possible To Connect A Camera To The Nano Note?
<qwebirc61666>
E.G a webcam, a stand alone camera (DSLR, Compact, etc) (If not a USB one what about the very old ones that do not use USB?), or some other sort of camera? If so could it do video as well as stills? Thanks
<Artyom>
kristianpaul: may you could test my core in your design...
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: yes i could
<viric>
qwebirc61666: it should be a SDIO camera
<Artyom>
kristianpaul: Honestly speaking I think from time to time about possibility to develop gnss-simulator. But the task seems rather difficult. There is number mater's thesis available in internet that can be a good starting point.
<kristianpaul>
the record and playback looks usefull
<qwebirc61666>
So how could one connect a SDIO camera?
<qwebirc61666>
viric: look up
<viric>
there is a microsd port.
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<qwebirc61666>
viric: so you connect the camera to the nanonote by the cameras sd card port and the nano notes sd card port? I am a neewbie btw.
<viric>
mh
<viric>
find a camera that can be connected to a sd card port.
<viric>
I don't know if they exist.
<qwebirc61666>
dad has a old cam that does not use usb it works by a sireal with so many pins i forget
<qwebirc61666>
viric:
<viric>
a serial line camera
<viric>
brave
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<qwebirc61666>
brave?
<whitequark>
there are some SDIO cameras around
<whitequark>
they're proprietary, old, unsupported and crappy
<whitequark>
same for SDIO WiFi
<qwebirc61666>
blow
<whitequark>
you may have success with serial cameras, through
<whitequark>
you can get something like 1-3fps on 640x480
<whitequark>
on a nice baud like 3mbit which ben should have no problems supporting
<qwebirc61666>
do very compact small ones exsist?
<whitequark>
afaik yes
<whitequark>
define "compact"?
<qwebirc61666>
ours is not pocket size
<qwebirc61666>
little bit thicker than a smart phone
<whitequark>
the ones we have in russia are exactly like that
<whitequark>
I think it's the very same camera I was talking about
<qwebirc61666>
I think that size is ok
<qwebirc61666>
shame its jpeg and not webp
<viric>
is webp any standard already?
<viric>
or only marketing?
<roh>
marketing
<viric>
ls
<viric>
oops
<viric>
roh: ok
<viric>
but webm is not only marketing, right?
<roh>
webm is used, but poorly supported
<qwebirc61666>
opera,google chrome
<viric>
but as for standard?
<qwebirc61666>
hopfuly there will be more support in the future.
<roh>
viric: standards are something everbody uses as default. neither webm nor webp is that
<qwebirc61666>
the stanard is set i thank and with containter. might be the odd bit left to do
<viric>
I wanted to reencode some videos... and I had to decide the encoder
<viric>
I decided for vpx on matroska
<viric>
I hope I'll be able to decode them for long
<qwebirc61666>
roh: what rubbish.
<roh>
vpx?
<viric>
do you think similar?
<viric>
hm vp8
<viric>
from libvpx
<qwebirc61666>
libvpx is codec
<roh>
hm. well.. i dont think thats universal yet. you will have trouble with most devices playing that
<qwebirc61666>
ffmpeg project had even better codec in dev
<viric>
ah, devices
<roh>
matroska as container is ok. we will see about codecs
<viric>
I don't care much on the devices
<viric>
I'm doubting on vp8 or xvid
<viric>
(the only device I could be interested in using plays xvid)
<roh>
xvid in avi is the de-facto standard btw
<qwebirc61666>
not mpeg4 plese
<qwebirc61666>
avi rubbish and mpeg4
<roh>
xvid IS mpeg4.2
<qwebirc61666>
so STOP USEING RUBISH ARRRR
<roh>
and actually looks better than most h264 codecs
<qwebirc61666>
what a waste of band width
<roh>
qwebirc61666: stop annoying people.
<viric>
the vpx people give even verilog decoders for what I remember
<viric>
for free
<larsc>
viric: they say they do
<roh>
viric: well.. i know what the hw decoder chipsets support and thats basically mpeg4.2, mpeg4.10 (h264) in sd and hd resolutions, sometimes even all res... sometimes resolutions which are divisible by 16 or so
<viric>
only say? :)
<viric>
(supper)
<roh>
in addition to some wmv9 and similar stuff. but nothing 'new' from the last 2-3 years.
<qwebirc61666>
support is separate from standard
<roh>
it takes time till stuff is supported in asics. on the other hand its much more energy preserving in asic.
<roh>
qwebirc61666: there can not be one standard
<qwebirc61666>
I never said there must be one standard
<roh>
usecases are too different in requirements. (latency/quality/features/support/compatibility). every usecase develops its own combination and thus different codec/container combinations get chosen.
<qwebirc61666>
vp8 h264 and if you must must must then other
<roh>
hw vendors usually adopt the 'support everything major used codec' route and do containers in sw.
<qwebirc61666>
genic hw enc/denc suport vp8. see webm website
<roh>
webm is not foss useable in hw
<qwebirc61666>
?
<qwebirc61666>
you mean hw not foss?
<roh>
there is no opensource for webm support in open hardware
<roh>
they got a design but refuse to release it.
<roh>
under a license useable for open hw
<roh>
closed you can make a deal. but not for opensource hw
<qwebirc61666>
from google, this is?
<roh>
yes
<qwebirc61666>
oh did not know that. thanks
<roh>
somebody tried getting it from google for the milkymist but they refused/ignored it
<roh>
so the stance of google on opensource stays 'a bit for marketing, but not by heart'
<qwebirc61666>
remmber open source is free software murdered for evil bizness
<roh>
i think you are confused
<roh>
its broken businesscases which conflict with opensource.
<roh>
cannot help there.
<qwebirc61666>
open source was started for "bizness"
<roh>
bs
<qwebirc61666>
in OS it is ok to have non-free parts in FS it is not
<roh>
from my pov opensource is more than just 'free sw'
<roh>
qwebirc61666: thats nitpicking from trolls like stallman
<roh>
who, moderatly speaking, has obviously no clue about hw and its details
<Ayla>
well, he's not totally wrong, FS implies OS, the contrary is not true
<roh>
open source and open hw allows one to have all details and documentation on and for a device and its sw. and still have a businesscase.
<qwebirc61666>
can't coment on HW too much neebie me
<roh>
the service to develop and manufacture.
<qwebirc61666>
roh: thats FS
<roh>
thats what you pay for.
<roh>
Ayla: still nitpicking. the details are washed out massivly so some define things this and some the other way.
<larsc>
for some people free software is the stuff you'd get on the pirate bay
<roh>
qwebirc61666: on hw its 'just' more difficult to get all factors into alignment due to contraints like interfacing stuff not completely open
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<roh>
larsc: exactly. so terms are very mangled and confused. we always can just try defining what things mean for us
<Ayla>
larsc, hey, there is legal stuff too on TPB :)
<roh>
tpb has a section on 'physical stuff' now too :)
<roh>
cad/cam files of real stuff
<qwebirc61666>
RMS a troll. narrr.
<qwebirc61666>
when I say Free sofware (FS) i mean what is definded by fsf.org
<roh>
that definition is very us-mindset centric. not complete for helping open hw
<lindi->
indeed it does not cover hardware at all
<roh>
e.g. i miss a openhw license which is similar to gpl
<qwebirc61666>
I aggree the term Free Software is not ideal. Posonley I think some thing like freedom(s) software would be better. thought perhapes a bit cheasy
<roh>
even licensing is a compatibility game
<qwebirc61666>
us-mindset centric?
<roh>
in the us everything has to do with business (from py pov)
<qwebirc61666>
FS all about biz? what!
<roh>
there are nearly no not-for-profit organisational structures and if they tend to be big to compensate the buerocratic overhead.
<qwebirc61666>
py?
<roh>
in europe there are many clubs/associations
<roh>
legal entities NOT a company per default.
<qwebirc61666>
the fsf.org is non-profit
<qwebirc61666>
FS is strict unlike OS. I do see that this is harder in HW to applie
<qwebirc61666>
thought the nano note and arduino to my knowage are more in line with FS than OS
<qwebirc61666>
I would say the the terms Copyleft HW is the FS equenv and Open HW is the OS equiv
<qwebirc61666>
If you are thinking I am in the usa or think they are angle then that is wrong. I think the usa is evil
<qwebirc61666>
think/belive/scribe
<roh>
countries are not evil. governments in power can be sometimes. single people can be for sure.
<qwebirc61666>
sorry my bad wording. good point
<lindi->
qwebirc61666: arduino schematics are only readable with non-free software
<qwebirc61666>
lindi: oh poo
<lindi->
qwebirc61666: eagle
<qwebirc61666>
eagle?
<lindi->
qwebirc61666: probably the most common electronics designed tool used by amateurs
<lindi->
electronics design
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<qwebirc61666>
roh: "xvid IS mpeg4.2" I was not being prosice. thanks for the full version num
<qwebirc61666>
right better go and have diner I will be back with more...
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<whitequark>
roh: webm is in ff, isn't it
<roh>
no clue. doesnt matter. ff is sw not hw.
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<whitequark>
by the way, google not releasing an ip core is fucked up. imho, as much evil as google is/became, it still does more good by net result. are you sure there aren't a patent case or something like that which legally prevents them from releasing the source?
<qwebirc61666>
ffmpeg uses libvpx don't know the status of the better webm codec.
<qwebirc61666>
right me now go and help with dish washer. more to come...
<qwebirc61666>
whitequark:
<viric>
webm isn't a matroska container with vp8+vorbis?
<whitequark>
viric: afaik it is. and libvpx is vp8 codec in this case then
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<viric>
yes
<qwebirc61666>
libvpx is a codec of the vp8 format
<qwebirc61666>
the webm container is based on matroska
<viric>
I'd call libvpx an implementation
<viric>
of vp8
<qwebirc61666>
yes
<qwebirc61666>
codec = software implementation
<viric>
ok
<larsc>
codec = compressor-decompressor
<viric>
when I used 'codec', I meant the definition in higher level than an implementation
<larsc>
doesn't matter whether it is done in hardware, software or by hand on paper
<viric>
:)
<viric>
I subscribe.
<qwebirc61666>
viric: webp = lossy and lossless image
<viric>
qwebirc61666: I'm trying it now
<viric>
qwebirc61666: I can't find how to make a lossless image
<qwebirc61666>
viric: webm supported in : firefox, opera, google chrome, IE vir plugin, apple never but stuff them they are evil. M$ & apple make money from h264,mpeg*,mp3,mp4,acc
<qwebirc61666>
I hate avi becuase it is used on so many videos, websites, torrents just so some lazey ass can burn it to a cd for there dvd player. grrrr. avi is nasty for streaming due to not having decent seek.
<viric>
neither allowing subtitles or multiple audio tracks
<viric>
or even some codecs.
<qwebirc61666>
I hate mpeg4.2 + mp3, acc because they are bandwidth hogs. h264 for the least bandwidth vp8 for a bit more bandwidth but less decod power needed. as for mp3 & acc. Vorbis is superior!
<qwebirc61666>
instead of your avage 700MB mpeg4.2 under SD res. if you used h264 you can have 720p!
<Ayla>
you hate AVI. But remember it's super-old
<viric>
yes
<Ayla>
back in the day, streaming it wasn't really possible
<viric>
also jpeg has its problems. and it's there :)
<Ayla>
on a 33kbps dialup connection
<viric>
such a surviving means quite a success
<Ayla>
actually, is there a good alternative to jpeg?
<qwebirc61666>
pov?
<viric>
pov? :)
<viric>
neither webp or jpeg2k show a big improvement I think
<viric>
I also think that people became used to the jpeg noise.
<qwebirc61666>
I hate jpeg too
<viric>
the brain can learn the jpeg noise enough to reduce the annoyance :)
<Ayla>
heheh, I see you know the topic
<qwebirc61666>
"such a surviving means quite a success" pah! it means humans are lazy
<qwebirc61666>
webp is a huge improvemnt
<viric>
improvements over jpeg, if any, are not significant enough
<viric>
otherwise there would be a change.
<qwebirc61666>
webp is from 2010 or 2011 I forget. give it a chance!
<qwebirc61666>
30% improment if I rember
<viric>
how did you measure that?
<qwebirc61666>
webp website
<viric>
ha.
<Ayla>
and what '30% improvement' means?
<viric>
:)
<qwebirc61666>
size and quarlity
<Ayla>
your eye see a 30% better image?
<viric>
Replacing an image interchange convention by another is an oportunity of business. We are going to see that from time to time.
<viric>
attempts.
<qwebirc61666>
interchange convention?
<qwebirc61666>
no loss in looks but smaller file size
<viric>
But the improvement has to overcome the inertia. That's why I meant the improvement has to be that significant enough.
<viric>
People working in imaging, loose any ability to evaluate image quality
<qwebirc61666>
think very slow internet
<qwebirc61666>
?
<mth>
MP3 is still the most popular lossy audio format even though there are better algorithms out there
<qwebirc61666>
who
<viric>
They start to give opinions on images as a PSNR measure would give. :)
<qwebirc61666>
how i mena
<viric>
And as I stated in that website...
<viric>
there is a big field of improvement at jpeg *decoding*
<wpwrak>
viric: (qjpegrest) pretty impressive
<viric>
although explored, almost not applied anywhere.
<qwebirc61666>
re mp3 because they don't know aby better/don't care/are lazy
<wpwrak>
maybe everyone is just waiting for the patents to expire ? :)
<viric>
wpwrak: thank you! :)
<viric>
wpwrak: I never got anyone to even download that web page. :)
<viric>
since years posted.
<qwebirc61666>
why borth though when vorbis is patent free and better
<viric>
who knows if it is patent free?
<wpwrak>
viric: it needs to be integrated into libraries. that way, people will use it
<Ayla>
viric: why don't you add those improvements to libjpeg?
<viric>
wpwrak: I started it as a libjpeg replacement, with envvars affecting it
<viric>
(the vcs show that)
<viric>
but I saw that the results looked far better (to my distorted taste, of course) with a little interaction per image
<qwebirc61666>
re qjpegrest but your starting with a rubbish format to begin with
<wpwrak>
viric: yeah, it should be just part of libjpeh and ffmpeg. then everyone will use it.
<wpwrak>
viric: otherwise, few if any will bother with the extra effort
<viric>
But it's not trivial to find a formula that always improves
<viric>
it may either blur too much, or work too slow...
<viric>
I thought of gimp integration... but I imagined that'd be hard to maintain, with too much extra work unrelated to the topic
<qwebirc61666>
opera very quickly added suport for webp because it meant better looking images but with out the file size
<viric>
and the libjpeg integration worked fine. It's just in anothe branch.
<wpwrak>
viric: ah, i see. i thought it worked on algorithmic issues, so it would always produce a more accurate image. if it needs interaction, that's bad
<qwebirc61666>
opera use webp in there tourbo service
<viric>
qwebirc61666: a tool to *decode better* has better value the more images there are in that format ;)
<viric>
wpwrak: the interaction also allows to use some almost parameter-less decoders :)
<wpwrak>
viric: few people are determined enough to tune nakedgirl047.jpg if nakedgirl048.jpg promises even more nudity :)
<viric>
wpwrak: but with a little hand help that improves
<viric>
hehe
<viric>
clear.
<viric>
Well, I imagined it could be used as in sound restoration, with human evaluation and interaction
<viric>
If I had found anyone with a minimal interest on that, maybe I would have developed further.
<wpwrak>
well, maybe if someone comes across the original hand-coded monalisa.jpg ...
<viric>
eh? :)
<wpwrak>
gimp sounds like a reasonable target. that's a place where people might spend some time tuning things
<qwebirc61666>
the decode better is only for quick previews? before if one waited you could still get the same results right?
<wpwrak>
(monalisa) for making the effort of tuning :)
<viric>
I looked at gimp code back then
<viric>
and it made me jump back
<wpwrak>
make a lib, show it to them, make them like it, then let them worry about the rest ;-)
<viric>
I tried
<wpwrak>
brb
<viric>
:) bye
<qwebirc61666>
are there any higher res cameras that one can connect to the nano note then?
<zrafa_>
qwebirc61666: nn does not have usb host
<viric>
zrafa_: he accepts serial port cameras
<qwebirc61666>
the one that was linked too earer had been super seeded by one that could do 30fps video. is that posable over serial? hardware newbie here
<qwebirc61666>
roh: I know ffmpeg is software not hardware
<roh>
there are different mechanisms at work defining what becomes the de-facto standard and most are not really easy to influence/ are not just based on knowledge now
<roh>
for example.. mp3 is still used not only because its easy and lots of files are in that format, but because it doesnt matter to the user
<roh>
if the user is pleased with the result, he has no reason to 'change' anything or switch to something better
<roh>
the switch from something to something else is more likely to happen if the user gains something important to him.
<roh>
when your problem is neither bandwith or cpu, and quality isnt your issue, you will most likely use the most easy to use for example.
<qwebirc61666>
roh: and then they don't bother to provide OGG + Vobis or even better FLAC arrrrrrr grrrrrr. selfish numteys!
<roh>
some do.
<qwebirc61666>
most don't
<qwebirc61666>
and won't :(
<roh>
but to be fair i am pleased if its in any defined format i have proper decoders instead of flash streams
<qwebirc61666>
I try emailing/posting and get no repliay :(((((((((((((((((((((
<qwebirc61666>
I hate flash too
<qwebirc61666>
I no long have it installed
<qwebirc61666>
jdownloader,savevideo.me and youtube webm
<qwebirc61666>
Magnautne.com is great. I have a member ship so artists get paid and I get great music and FLACs :)
<qwebirc61666>
but theres so much more great music that is only availbe in mp3 128 cbr :*(
<qwebirc61666>
magnatune
<GNUtoo>
jamendo can be downloaded in ogg vorbis too
* mth
is a big Magnatune fan as well
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<qwebirc61666>
I know about jamendo and OGG. I only donwload the OGGs. I should of said. as someone was bound to say it. oh well
<Ayla>
I use jamendo on my android phone
<qwebirc61666>
right bye dad will be calling...
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