<viric>
'ts' can also mail the output of the programs :)
<viric>
anyway... I also leave 2 3>AB8
<viric>
kyak: have good vacations :)
<rjeffries>
Chumby NeTV looks interesting. Inckludes Spartan 6 FPGA. http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Chumby-NeTV/ Not sure about degree of open-ness. Others can evaluat ethat dimension better than moi.
<kristianpaul>
"that most app developers need to get their hands dirty with FPGA programming." nice :-)
<kristianpaul>
we can introduce milkymist to those developers too ;-D
<lekernel>
rjeffries, do you also send news about qi projects into chumby channels? if not, please do.
<kristianpaul>
yes please :-)
<rjeffries>
lekernel and kristianpaul look. I assume people here are smart and interested in a wide range of geeky things. I am not following Chumby but this is an interesting device.
<kristianpaul>
sure, but you can spread the word about copyleft hardware projects to
<rjeffries>
and I have done so on Twitter and G+ in teh past. ;)4
<lekernel>
I have received messages about this netv 4 times or so already; unfortunately, our own PR doesn't work this good
<rjeffries>
this gadget overlaying character generator on a tV stram is a clever hack. now the question is what it will cost. MM's FPGA costs $40 as I recall. But maybe there are lower cost versions of Spartan 6
<rjeffries>
absent a price, this is but a curiosity.
<kristianpaul>
ah,  nice lekernel , so you know what are they doing with the fpga? looks related to a video acelaration core
<rjeffries>
they said they use it to overlay character generation on the video stream. lekernel does the same, naturally
<kristianpaul>
yes HDMI
<lekernel>
without framebuffer, which makes it a lot more easy
<kyak>
viric: thanks, and you, too :)
<rjeffries>
HDMI is A Good Thing. It's waht all TVs and monitors support these days, at least in the developed world.
<kristianpaul>
and the fees :-)
<lekernel>
rjeffries, hdmi = patents, licensing fees, DRM, etc.
<rjeffries>
lekerne;l understood.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: m1 actually does a lot more than overlay the video ;-) sometimes, things that look easy are nothing like that if you peek under the hood :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I am curious whatr sell price  they will arrive at. FPGAs are not exactly low cost.
<kristianpaul>
15.69
<kristianpaul>
XC6SLX9-2TQG144C at digikey
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: depends a bit. some aren't too bad. and you have CPLDs continuing at the lower range. it's all a question how what you really need. of course, a relatively static image/overlay needs a lot less than generating things at a high frame rate
<wpwrak>
lekernel: if it stripped DRM transparently, that would be a hit ;-)
<kristianpaul>
he i tought sparna6 dint come in TQFP
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: real men don't use TQFP :)
<wpwrak>
quickly hides his pictures of labsw
<kristianpaul>
haha
<wpwrak>
hmm, now .. what to do with that live action video of labsw torturing M1. i somehow don't feel very motivated to spend hours editing it. and unedited it's worse than watching paint dry. besides being pretty incomprehensible if you don't know M1 already.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak as that nasty case of time travel cleare dup for you? that could be pretty scary!
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yeah, it was easy to fix. i think the dinosaurs died out a few more times again, but it's always them who get to suffer the anomalies. kind of a running joke among time travelers :)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1rc3/norruption/: update of on-going testing; new test loop7 simulating "false start" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2310466
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: i have a number of digital inputs that come from places where they can be exposed to EMI. counter-measures i have in mind is deglitching in software (basically debouncing) and then increasing the pull-up current (tens of kOhm -> 1 kOhm). i'm also contemplating to bypassing these lines to ground by a bit (10-100 nF). do you think these caps would do any good ? or would that just be voodoo engineering ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
should work to some degree, not for ESD prot though
<DocScrutinizer>
you probably want to increase source Z by inserting e.g a 50R into the line from that C to exposure stage
<DocScrutinizer>
100nF sound fat
<wpwrak>
ESD shouldn't be an issue there
<DocScrutinizer>
and also 100nF don't work for EMI
<DocScrutinizer>
you'd prefer something like 100pF for that
<wpwrak>
the EMI disturbances may last for some milliseconds
<DocScrutinizer>
100nF have way too much parasitic inductive Z
<DocScrutinizer>
lol, so it's EMI of 20Hz?
<wpwrak>
it's a relay closing and who knows what flowing through that relay :)
<DocScrutinizer>
it's all about a RC lowpass filter
<wpwrak>
yeah, i get the 50 Ohm + cap structure. darn. more components.
<DocScrutinizer>
where R is that 50R I suggested
<wpwrak>
soon, i'll switch even this critter to 0402 ...
<DocScrutinizer>
for RF EMI you need low-ES"R" Cs, read 10..500pF
<DocScrutinizer>
100nF is like a bead for RF
<wpwrak>
no no, relays are LF :)
<DocScrutinizer>
EMI never is LF
<wpwrak>
what else do you all it then ? EMP ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
that's called ESD then ;-P
<wpwrak>
naw, nothing electrostatic there :)
<DocScrutinizer>
usually associated to sparks etc
<wpwrak>
yes, sparks fit
<DocScrutinizer>
so how is your several ms of *DC* supposed to enter the trace otherwise?
<wpwrak>
electromagnetic field, i suppose
<wpwrak>
the relay is isolated
<DocScrutinizer>
for several ms of RF you still want a 50pF, not a 100nF
<DocScrutinizer>
nonsense
<DocScrutinizer>
you can't induce a 20Hz full sine wave into a trace on a PCB
<wpwrak>
no no, it's not a full size. it's some upset - i haven't actually seen it - that makes the system think buttons have been pressed
<DocScrutinizer>
you have 3 problems to handle: RFI, ESD, and OV
<wpwrak>
i know that it's not a brown-out or such. that would look different
<DocScrutinizer>
RFI: 50pF
<DocScrutinizer>
ESD: tranzorb or series Z with that 50pF
<wpwrak>
i think it's induction from wires on which a high current is switched quickly
<wpwrak>
the whole episode takes up to ~10 ms. the spikes i've seen (on other lines) are much shorter, though
<DocScrutinizer>
anyway, you'll be fine with series-R 50R plus a 10nF I guess
<DocScrutinizer>
get a higher series-R if you can afford, and spend a 50pF in parallel to the 10nF
<DocScrutinizer>
and clamping-diodes or a tranzorb!
<wpwrak>
i'll take 100 R then. nicer number :)
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<wpwrak>
the component count is getting out of hand. i'm already going from an internal pull-up and nothing on the outside to external pull-up plus filter.
<DocScrutinizer>
forget the external pullup
<wpwrak>
i need a pull-up. the signal is a button that shorts to ground. well, i can put the pull-up on the "far" side. not sure if that is a good idea, though.
<DocScrutinizer>
defiitely a good idea
<DocScrutinizer>
you said you got an internal 10k pullup
<wpwrak>
no, the 10k would be external
<DocScrutinizer>
ooh
<wpwrak>
i have something like 50 k internal
<wpwrak>
but i want to turn off the internal pull-up. causes problems elsewhere
<DocScrutinizer>
mhm
<wpwrak>
(the chip has only a global pull-up enable/disable)
<DocScrutinizer>
and the wire to the switch is like 15m running in parallel to 220V switched line?
<wpwrak>
naw, it's only about 5-10 cm. may get close to relay, lines in/out of relay. relay is currently switch DC. that DC comes from switching power supply, goes into milkymist one. there's probably a lot of inrush current for the caps.
<DocScrutinizer>
meh, don't worry too much, get a 50pF GPIO->GND, a GPIO->50R->1kR-pullup, and your wire to switch from 50R*1kR
<DocScrutinizer>
if you're still worried, place a 100nF from 50R*1kR ->GND
<DocScrutinizer>
for debouncing
<DocScrutinizer>
and eating spikes
<wpwrak>
i'll debounce in sw :)
<DocScrutinizer>
make that 100R
<DocScrutinizer>
or even several kR, on a second thought
<wpwrak>
i'm just worried about coupling persistent critters when going to AC. but of course, there i wouldn't have such rapid field changes all the time either. mains doesn't run at kHz ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
input Z of GPIO is high I guess
<wpwrak>
very, yes
<wpwrak>
> 1 MOhm
<DocScrutinizer>
so s/50R/50kR/
<DocScrutinizer>
or sth
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe 22kR
<wpwrak>
hmm. 10 k ? i like my powers of ten :)
<DocScrutinizer>
makes a nice OVP and ESD and EMI together with the 50pF
<lekernel>
kristianpaul, I don't know how they implement stuff in the FPGA. as a matter of fact, I'm not impressed with an FPGA overlaying some text over video.
<wpwrak>
eek. don't have the current budget for that. 1 k would be the absolute limit
<DocScrutinizer>
:-D
<lekernel>
what is remarkable, however, is that this project is yet another one with a publicity/coolness ratio much higher than that of milkymist. this is galling and demotivating, and the main reason why i'm not doing much technical work atm. instead of that I'm trying to do some PR and getting wolfspra1l to configure the webshop ...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: scantly clad dancing girls !
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: any change the filter would still work if i go from 50 pF to 1 nF ?
<wpwrak>
s/change/chance/
<wpwrak>
(better in-house availability of components :)
<DocScrutinizer>
1nF is close to the edge for RFI
<wpwrak>
about 14 kHz for 10 kR + 1 nF
<DocScrutinizer>
if your device starts to act funny on American Forces Radio blasting out @ 14MHz you know what's up
<wpwrak>
so it'll wire it to my anti-aircraft installation, to set defcon 1 ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
1nF starts to have too high a parasitic "choke" built in
<wpwrak>
i'm not too worried about radio. that shouldn't really produce the power levels that could trip this anyway. (under sane usage conditions.)
<wpwrak>
it's just what happens in and around the relay that concerns me
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why you frequently see a 10pF, 10nF and 100uF in parallel for really buffwring and smoothing VDD
<wpwrak>
and then you get the other EE crowd that says the whole thing is much worse than just any single cap ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
you'll not get anything near a virtual 0R for 100MHz across a 10nF
<wpwrak>
i'm so unconcerned about FM ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
it's more like a virtual break or NC for 100MHz
<wpwrak>
it's a digital input after all. a few tens of mV of FM noise floor or even a few hundred in this case don't matter.
<DocScrutinizer>
haha, you'll easily see a few volts if bad luck adds to full moon
<wpwrak>
of course, i kinda miss the involuntary RF lab i had at my old place. with several microwave antenna clusters basically right in front of my nose (~50 m away at most, at eye level)
<DocScrutinizer>
you got a non-linear high-Z input after all
<wpwrak>
(volts) i don't believe in astrology :)
<DocScrutinizer>
usually good setting for an unintentional high quality AM receiver ;-D
<wpwrak>
yeah. add the microwave clusters and you have pretty much everything you could wish for ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
place your smartphone next to this contraption and watch it switch in the rythm of the 20Hz GSM data packages
<wpwrak>
you need a metal case then anyway
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm, you remember my epic fail regarding my efforts to use a microwave oven for shielding GSM RF?
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure microwave ovens are all that RF-tight anyway ...
<DocScrutinizer>
the dam FR worked inside the (not operating) microwave better than outside
<DocScrutinizer>
that's my point
<DocScrutinizer>
no metal case is
<wpwrak>
their tightness may be more on the scale of "don't let more than 1 kW leak in any direction"
<wpwrak>
(at least not in the certification device :)
<DocScrutinizer>
no, it's just highly tuned to the magnetron's RF freq
<DocScrutinizer>
probably for WLAN it would've worked just fine
<wpwrak>
(tuned) that would make sense
<DocScrutinizer>
not though for GSM
<wpwrak>
hm yes, gsm is pretty far off
<DocScrutinizer>
lambda/2 seals
<wpwrak>
yeah. and a window.
<DocScrutinizer>
the whole magic is in the small step in the door frame plus the actual dimension of the gap between door and case, it's of a certain distance from "inside" to that small step
<DocScrutinizer>
so reflections cancel all RF that might want to go thru that gap
<DocScrutinizer>
just for one freq that this door is designed for
<DocScrutinizer>
I also tested all-metal cookie boxes with a metal lid, phone worked inside just fine
<wpwrak>
pity. scarytech.com is already taken :)
<wpwrak>
yeah, the cookie boxes are worrying
<Jay7>
hehe.. another kexec user in ML
<wpwrak>
Jay7: it's unstoppable :)
<Jay7>
yeah :)
<Jay7>
seems I should do another try of kexec and kexecboot on NN
<wpwrak>
YES ! :)
<kristianpaul>
weee :-)
<Jay7>
this may need to bring NN support into new OE (oe-core + meta-handhelds)
<kristianpaul>
:o
<kristianpaul>
what is that meta-handhelds?
<Jay7>
OE layer
<Jay7>
support of Sharp Zaurus/HP iPAQ now is there
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/ changed internal pull-ups to external to remove sneak current path (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6190dbe
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: added low-pass filters to button input (with help from Joerg Reisenweber) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bdaff51
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so .. how did you like my boring movie ? :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: he
<kristianpaul>
slow...
<kristianpaul>
but gets the idea
<wpwrak>
precisely :)
<wpwrak>
of course, now imagine adam doing all that manually. hundreds of times.
<kristianpaul>
no no
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
at least i get to sleep while all the boredom unfolds :)
<kristianpaul>
labsw give you some feedback? i mean how you know if meanshile sleeping mm1 poweron but dont get render?
<kristianpaul>
where is the log? :-)
<wpwrak>
i didn't add that feedback yet. i think i could, though. not in labsw itself but on the PC. there's a pair of registers in the FPGA that contains the status of the latest two attempts to reconfigure. these should tell me what happened. haven't tried that yet, though
<kristianpaul>
oh
<wpwrak>
so what i do is that i simply check visually from time to time and write down the result
<wpwrak>
but yes, it's a bit annoying that labsw is busy so long. i still have a few improvements i want to test but i don't want to upset is before these experiments are done. alas, already the last time i took it out was enough to make my setup fail to trigger the NOR corruption anymore. very annoying.
<wpwrak>
yes, that's me. haven't taught my scripts enough AI yet :)
<wpwrak>
i also have a serial console log. but that redefines boredom, even if after you've seen the slow video ...