<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: added option "any" to "mill", to accept paths irrespective of tool size (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/75c3a7d
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: mkmk-simple: added variable ANY (usage: ANY=any) to set "mill any" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/afa7460
<rjeffries>
Evan  Prodromou of status.net and identi.ca has a new blog about open source companies. http://ope.nu/p/40 The nine revenue streams for Open Source companies
<jow_laptop>
kyak: how many programs are affected by the api change?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: monthly news this month ? activity is picking up again - mailing list traffic in august was at 200% of july
<wolfspraul>
yes but at the very least I need a few days now to focus only on the m1 launch
<wolfspraul>
I have to get this thing out, people are waiting...
<wolfspraul>
And rejon keeps me busy too
<rejon>
ha
<rejon>
yah right
<rejon>
teaching you about culture
<rejon>
your own german culture
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how soon will be the M1 launch ? if it's ~1 week or more from now, a bit of a teaser in the weekly news could also be good :)
<wpwrak>
rejon: wow ;-)
<kristianpaul>
m1 launch party? :-)
<rejon>
yes
<rejon>
i think we will take a nice soft launch
<rejon>
and i have a plan for growing this and our dev community
<rejon>
we need more people adding features to m1
<rejon>
looks to me like development has stopped by the main developers at present
<rejon>
from the commit logs
<wpwrak>
don't forget the summer holiday effect ...
<wpwrak>
holidayS even
<wpwrak>
and of course, sebastien now has paid-for work on the side to distract him
<kristianpaul>
hum. i think sebastien is working on increasing rendering resolution too
<rejon>
cool
<rejon>
kristianpaul, what are you hacking on?
<kristianpaul>
dont you know?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if i understand the situation correctly, he made a few changes that should help with this, but then found that it wasn't enough, the next step would be a big one (speed up the memory subsystem), and he hasn't worked up enough fury yet to attack this issue
<wolfspraul>
we should charge that to the Linux Foundation. Isn't that how it works?
<kristianpaul>
can you cost ben wpan too?
<kristianpaul>
(charge) lol
<wolfspraul>
rejon: yes I think the ability to mix in static images would be cool
<wolfspraul>
if high-res is too hard, maybe that's lower hanging fruit
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately the most natural way to feed it static images would be a usb stick, but that's also hard to implement
<rejon>
wolfspraul, ideally
<rejon>
yes, a folder of images
<rejon>
point m1 to a folder of images
<rejon>
and they can mix into the patches
<rejon>
some advertising copmanies interested in autogeneration of ads in public spaces
<rejon>
in china there are so many
<kristianpaul>
feel unware about flicernoise rendering internals..
<kristianpaul>
unaware*
<wolfspraul>
like I said this requires 2 todo items: ability to mix in images in the ic design & flickernoise, and then best support for usb-storage to feed them in
<kristianpaul>
usb-storage?...
<wolfspraul>
both are non-trivial, difficult to implement. not sure who is up to the task.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: how would the user feed images into the box?
<wolfspraul>
people would want to copy them to a usb stick and plug it into m1
<kristianpaul>
using the internet?
<wolfspraul>
ah true, that's a good workaround until we have usb-storage support
<wolfspraul>
just point it to a url
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: so for still images, first level of support would be download from URL only
<wolfspraul>
oh, another problem
<wolfspraul>
space in the nor flash is limited, just a few megabytes
<wolfspraul>
so if there should be a way to cache the images, that may not be enough
<wolfspraul>
the 2 GB memory card is present in every rc3 we ship, but more tough software work is needed to make it work
<rejon>
wolfspraul, can you and wpwrak fight about openwrt vs please?
<wolfspraul>
huh?
<wolfspraul>
"fight about openwrt vs"
<kristianpaul>
please?
<wolfspraul>
so I think for a really effective implementation of static images a lot is missing right now
<wolfspraul>
using the 2 gb card as storage
<wolfspraul>
implementing support for still images in the ic design and flickernoise
<rejon>
openembedded
<wolfspraul>
adding support for downloading images from a url, probably download and cache them locally
<wolfspraul>
adding support for plugging in usb sticks
<kristianpaul>
Linux :-)
<wolfspraul>
all of this together is several man years of work :-)
<wolfspraul>
rejon: what do you want to know about openwrt & oe ?
<wolfspraul>
for my current purposes openwrt is better suited, I like it better
<wolfspraul>
smaller
<wolfspraul>
that's why we were able to make an openwrt useland for m1
<wolfspraul>
try that with oe - super hard I'd say. anybody feel free to proove me wrong.
<kristianpaul>
no thank you ;)
<wolfspraul>
I'm super practical about build systems. I want them to work quickly, be small and lean.
<wolfspraul>
many people use customized buildroots
<wolfspraul>
also fine. but openwrt has just the right level of 'platform architecture' and easy scripting / easy ways to customize
<kristianpaul>
(other crazy workaround) use build-in camera to take pics can be re-used on a patch
<wpwrak>
rejon: naw, i don't want to fight about openwrt vs. oe :) i think owrt has developed into a resource drain to the nanonote community that could have been avoided by picking a more feature-rich distribution. be it OE or whatever.
<wolfspraul>
I think openwrt is best for small systems, just a little bit more than a plain buildroot
<kristianpaul>
s/build-in/box-included
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: it's amazing that this didn't happen then :-)
<wolfspraul>
seems the people that are actually working with distros come to a different conclusion about workload, getting the same thing done in A vs B
<wolfspraul>
so openwrt for embedded systems - fine by me
<wolfspraul>
that's why we have an m1 userland today, even if it's hacked together
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i'm not saying openwrt is a bad start. it's lean, simple, understandable. just what you want to get rolling.
<wolfspraul>
after that I would probably look at build tools like koji, if I have a system with more than 512 mb ram or so
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but as the feature set increases, you get more and more into fighting the limitations of the distribution.
<wolfspraul>
I don't see that. A lot less than OE in my experience.
<wolfspraul>
openwrt is simple, makefile based
<wolfspraul>
you should like that ;-)
<kristianpaul>
He want more libs ;)
<wolfspraul>
oe is using bitbake - overengineered imho
<wpwrak>
so far, most of the work that went into openwrt was just adding things that most other distros already have
<wolfspraul>
you should just work with bitbake for a while :-)
<wolfspraul>
am I wrong saying that you never actually used it?
<wpwrak>
i've used it in the early days of openmoko :)
<wolfspraul>
for how long? and then you were smart enough to 'outsource' this to others, no? :-)
<wpwrak>
and then i decided that the only sane way of living in a place with OE was to __OUTSOURCE__ anything that had anything to do with the distro
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
voila, and i lived happily ever after ;-)
<kristianpaul>
rafa around? :)
<wolfspraul>
openwrt is good to start, we agree
<wolfspraul>
so we see it again for the m1 userland now
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: he has just been feeding rms :)
<wolfspraul>
for systems larger than 512mb or so, several gigabytes of storage, I'd try koji
<wolfspraul>
I mean 512mb memory
<wolfspraul>
for smaller embedded systems, also those we build in the future, I'd still go with openwrt
<wolfspraul>
if it's so small that it cannot even run the Linux kernel, probably even openwrt is overkill, and you'd just have some manually written makefiles or buildroot
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i would still look for the outsourcing approach. see if any other distros already support LM32. if not, see if there's a happy maintainer community we can recruit for our purposes :)
<kristianpaul>
lm32 dunno.. well rtems for now
<wolfspraul>
sure no way. we have to do it ourselves or nobody will.
<wpwrak>
e.g., i would have loved to have closer ties between qi-hw and jlime. that would have given us OE on a silver plate
<wolfspraul>
just look at the mess with gcc, llvm, dynamic linking, mmu, and so on
<kristianpaul>
kristofer from jlime seems interested in getting a M1 i remenber
<wpwrak>
yes, i think M1 needs some infrastructure work first. but that applies to any distro.
<wolfspraul>
how active are oe and openwrt nowadays
<wpwrak>
i don't keep track of them. for me, they just are :) oe should be big. so much depends on it nowadays.
<wolfspraul>
like what?
<kristianpaul>
why no body comment about Qt ? :)
<kristianpaul>
ah, but no c++ suport with gcc-lm32...
<wolfspraul>
there is too much work missing, really
<wolfspraul>
instead of pointless debating I'd rather move some tech snippets forward, no matter how small
<wpwrak>
i see the biggest problem of M1 sw support currently still in the very basics. the core system infrastructure. begins with the MMU, then toolchain, etc.
<wolfspraul>
m1 is a great start now and works as a video synthesizer, but as rejon said we need to find more core devs to take on hard problems
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes fully agree
<wpwrak>
once it looks like a regular linux system, many things get a lot easier
<wpwrak>
then your main enemies come from the autocrap family, making more or less subtly wrong assumptions about your system
<kristianpaul>
yeah, but flicernoise still flickernoise.. how many people understand that code right now to add features as they wish?..
<wpwrak>
well, how much of FN is really essential for what M1 does ? all the desktop etc. could be done in a few days with pretty much any halfway decent toolkit
<kristianpaul>
may be rejon can take a look at it and tell others?
<kristianpaul>
but rendering is mostly sebastien master tehsis if i recall well
<kristianpaul>
may be no lib?
<kristianpaul>
dam i hate when i dont understand something well...
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: nice document
<kristianpaul>
yeah, sebastien very kind making us now about it :)
<kristianpaul>
s/now/know
<kristianpaul>
so recalling initial talk, using internet may be a workround _if_ there is always internet acess by ethernet near to M1
<kristianpaul>
or, the another idea about using video camera included on the box.. but with no decent zoom/macro i dont see it very confortable..
<kristianpaul>
nah
<wpwrak>
for loading images ?
<wpwrak>
you'll get full USB nearly "for free" with linux. at least the upper layer drivers. of course, as i understand it, the current USB host is only low-speed. so this would need upgrading to at least full-speed.
<kristianpaul>
no for freee
<wolfspraul>
from my understanding the current usb host implementation in the navre core is just hacked together to barely work with keyboard and mice
<kristianpaul>
OHCI is not complete in mm1 soc i remenber
<wolfspraul>
I think it will require substantial more work even if Linux ran on top of it
<kristianpaul>
yes, wolfspraul
<wpwrak>
"for free" in the sense that, once you have USB working at all (host controller driver, etc.), you can talk to all the crazy little devices linux supports
<kristianpaul>
oh sure :)
<wpwrak>
(hack) yeah, that's also my understanding
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: loading pictures over Ethernet, even if cached locally, is just a workaround, but at least it would be a start
<kristianpaul>
i think that for free would aply for memcard code at least
<wolfspraul>
of course a normal user would expect to be able to plug a usb stick into the box and it should 'just work'
<kristianpaul>
who dont those days :)
<wolfspraul>
but even for the caching we would need to get the memcard to work, write support, etc.
<kristianpaul>
erghh, plug ?
<kristianpaul>
no more free ports !
<wolfspraul>
so adding usb-storage support may almost be less work :-) Compared to download, caching, memory card write support, etc.
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wolfspraul>
somehow I'm hoping we can sell 50% of m1 to developers
<wolfspraul>
I think one way to get developer attention is to go out with a really big vision of where milkymist could go
<wolfspraul>
with every little bit that we lower barriers of entry, improve the tools, some really spectactular new products will be possible in the future
<wolfspraul>
but that needs to come across. what products? how long will it take? how many people have to join to speed it up? etc.
<wolfspraul>
and unfortunately there is nothing really to catch up to
<wolfspraul>
I like Sebastien's idea of an autonomous flying object that can cover long distances, recharge batteries and look for resting spots on its own
<wolfspraul>
such a fun idea and vision, I'm thinking how I can make a little animation of it :-)
<wolfspraul>
that thing needs an eye and/or radar to fly by vision, identify suitable resting places, etc.
<wolfspraul>
we could probably come up with 10 or more examples of what type of products Milkymist could lead to
<wolfspraul>
in communication/radio, computer vision, medical appliances, and so on
<wpwrak>
i'm a bit disappointed that exactly 0 people have build an ubb-vga :-(
<kristianpaul>
hides
<wolfspraul>
I'm not surprised. the scene we are in, and the way we communicate, is about someone hacking something for themselves, and then showing off
<wolfspraul>
nobody wants to rebuild what someone else did
<wolfspraul>
hero stuckness essentially :-)
<wolfspraul>
everybody wants to be a hero, everybody wants to show off what great thing THEY built
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: you'd be amazed how good it looks. when i tried it at FISL, i got it to display flawlessly at 1024x768 on pretty much the first try on two screens (well, one screen at a booth, and on rejon's projector)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: the image looked much better than on my old monitor at home :)
<wolfspraul>
we need to break out of that hero stuckness, and rejon is working on it with sharism etc.
<wpwrak>
hmm, dunno if that hero fixation is a cause or a consequence
<kristianpaul>
I like rebuild just i just  havent tought abother ubb-vga aplication besides slides, wich is not my main concern right now
<wolfspraul>
so far we know that we have the technology under control, or rather which part we have under control and which part not. That's a good starting point.
<kristianpaul>
but i have a talk in two months so :-)
<rejon>
wpwrak, i might build a cable, wolfspraul made me buy a ubb-vga off him so i could use it to make a calbe
<rejon>
is that software in the default BNN image?
<wolfspraul>
yes rejon bought a UBB from me, but he did a lot of price haggling
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how many beers did he have to pay in the end ? :)
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
cash + beer
<rejon>
i think i bought him beer actually
<wolfspraul>
+ taxi
<rejon>
of course, my time is not valuable to wolfspraul
<wpwrak>
rejon: (default image) naw, it's way too experimental for that
<wolfspraul>
I'm listening. rejon - I will send the 'dudeloop' licensing fees to you from now on, whenever I use it.
<wpwrak>
rejon: the high art of manipulation :)
<rejon>
yah, if i believed in licensing i'd be rich
<wpwrak>
(ubb-vga) it should compile nicely if you have even only the minimum toolchain set up, though. no fancy libraries required.
<wpwrak>
(or i can just make a binary)
<kristianpaul>
the image need specia preparation?
<wolfspraul>
lunch time, taking my notebook so I can work WHILE I'M EATING and make up the time I need for rejon tonight
<wolfspraul>
how's that?
<kristianpaul>
haha
<kristianpaul>
thas you and rejon now ;)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you leave the office for eating ?!?
<rejon>
i have a maid sorry
<rejon>
wolfspraul,
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: next thing you'll tell us that you sleep elsewhere, too
<rejon>
she feeds me
<rejon>
while i wwork
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: same i asked my self soe seconds ago ;)
<rejon>
ok, i will push on those 4 things i want from the milkyqiverse
<wolfspraul>
a-qi-vers
<rejon>
working now while you guys all talk all day
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: we are a-qi-vers!
<rejon>
we should rename qi-hardware #dudeloop
<wolfspraul>
lunch, work, l8
<wpwrak>
(ubb-vga, images) right now, i can load PBM of exactly the same resolution the screen has
<wpwrak>
rejon: what's dudeloop ?
<rejon>
a loop of dudes
<rejon>
a circle of dudes
<rejon>
it must be broken
<kristianpaul>
hum so not hard to make a slide
<kristianpaul>
slideS
<rejon>
its a blackhole of dudeliness
<rejon>
broken with girls
<rejon>
only
<rejon>
linux conferences are mostly dudeloops
<wpwrak>
aah ! good idea :)
<wpwrak>
yeah, and try to pick up one of those few girls you find at the conferences :)
<rejon>
well you know a movement is over when no girls are there
<wpwrak>
or maybe it's still starting :)
<kristianpaul>
oh i can write my own libc, interesting :-)
<wpwrak>
i hear the alarm bells ring at glibc headquarters :)
<wpwrak>
kinda like then linus discovered he could write his own distributed revision control system. shortly thereafter, the wind of time blew over the scorched ruins of bitkepper ...
<wpwrak>
of course, he has a history of destroying lesser projects. e.g., coherent unix never knew what hit them when linux came out ...
<kristianpaul>
take a look to lekernel thesis and datasheets again
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: gp2rml/: copied over from svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/cncmap/gp2rml (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/fbbe451
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: mkmk-simple: changed path to gp2rml from ...openmoko... to ...qi/cae-tools... (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/50918a2
<wpwrak>
grmbl. didn't set the board thickness. no surprise it didn't cut through the 1.6 mm board using the 0.8 mm default ...
<wpwrak>
*hmm* seems that the moment of truth has come. the moment i have to settle for a 2D CAD that actually is a CAD (and not just a perl, python, etc. script)
<wpwrak>
goes on teaching fped a few more tricks
<DocScrutinizer>
lekernel: nice sat pics
<DocScrutinizer>
the method is known for long, but the dongle is really rather low-priced compared to what you had to pay in the 1980s
<DocScrutinizer>
IIRC back then they reworked fax machines to do the decoding
<lekernel>
implementing support for still images in the ic design? wtf?
<lekernel>
this is only a software task
<lekernel>
pictures can be uploaded with FTP
<lekernel>
rejon, commits aren't the only thing that matters in a project, popularity/publicity (or the lack thereof) are important as well
<rejon_>
lekernel, FTP is not good for normal people
<rejon_>
lekernel, sure we can send out loads of publicity
<rejon_>
but writers will write want they want
<rejon_>
not as important as quality connections and time spent with actual people
<rejon_>
experience
<wolfspraul>
oops, sorry, I got that wrong with 'ic design'. need to study the sources more carefully.
<lekernel>
and 99% of the codebase of milkymist is totally unknown to most people here, so have a look at the existing stuff before asking for more
<rejon_>
lekernel, we should get that 99% changed
<rejon_>
so more people can participate
<rejon_>
that would be really great for the health of the project
<rejon_>
got a hit on the betahaus event lekernel
<rejon_>
emailing you now
<rejon_>
lekernel, were you talking to anyone at betahaus about that event?
<lekernel>
yes
<rejon_>
who?
<lekernel>
Madeleine and Eva
<lekernel>
the next step is to write the workshop description
<lekernel>
(and have M1s ready for sale)
<rejon_>
sure, that is super close on the sale side
<rejon_>
sure lekernel
<rejon_>
ok cool
<rejon_>
madeleine is cofounder of betahaus and eva is intern
<rejon_>
just checking, my friend jay is organizing the makerplatz during that
<rejon_>
seeing how connects before final push out
<rejon_>
also want to tie in with sharism plan
<rejon_>
ok emailed
<rejon_>
lekernel, i have three quetsions
<rejon_>
1.) how will your CERN work tie into the m1
<rejon_>
how does it, so when talking with people we have an idea
<rejon_>
2.) how can SVGA/720p get onto m1 soon, and/or how much work will this take because people already asking for it constantly
<rejon_>
3.) how to get images simply into m1 so they can be mixed with
<Ayla>
lekernel, you work at CERN?
<jiri_brozovsky>
wprak: I'm still interested to build a copy of your ubb-vga (even got a buchn of ubbs for that). But by experience is limited and it looks like too compicated for start :-(
<rejon_>
we doing an makerlab next week in shanghai...
<rejon_>
ooh too bad, they doing an fpga workshop soon after
<lekernel>
#3 is relatively easy, just use libpng/libjpeg to decode the images, and inject into the renderer loop. the only delicate point is how you configure the images from the patches.
<lekernel>
#2 is technically difficult and will probably require doubling SDRAM frequency, which I do not feel motivated to do while the units are not being sold and the project remains so unpopular
<lekernel>
#1 it's not related other than being other open source electronics stuff and bringing new opportunities to meet people who are not afraid of advanced tech like FPGAs, contrary - i'm sorry to say - to most hackers
<lekernel>
in case you are worried about my commitment to making M1 successful, it's consulting, not employment. I'm totally free to continue working on M1.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: naw, i don't think people are really afraid. most just don't have an itch that they think an FPGA will scratch. at the end of the day, that's what really motivates people.
<lekernel>
so, in that case, I can say they lack the motivation to scratch the itch of understanding the vast field of FPGA-related technologies
<lekernel>
which is equivalent
<wpwrak>
lekernel: a few "getting started" examples (blink the LEDs, whatever) should allow people to get rolling. of course, if they could use use a free toolchain instead of the proprietary xilinx tools, that may make the whole thing more attractive. at least for people coming from the free software corner.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: there is a blink led example in llhdl btw .)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i would have been a bit disappointed if there hadn't been one ;-)
<kristianpaul>
lol
<lekernel>
haha indeed, and it even works
<wpwrak>
lekernel: but you don't ask people to be driven by the prospect of mastering a complex and obscure technology. it's just normal that you'll have to wait fairly long for your first followers with this approach.
<wpwrak>
you have to sneak in the FPGA world a little more subtly :)
<wpwrak>
like "oh, this would be really easy to do with an FPGA". like this [high-level picture of the concept]. here's roughly what the code would look like."
<kristianpaul>
have some ideas about what _you_ want to do in a FPGA?
<wpwrak>
that way, you've 1) connected it to the problem they're trying to solve, leveraging their willpower to tackle that problem. 2) you explained what can be done in terms they can readily understand without even learning anything about the arcane magic of FPGAs. 3) shown them that it's something that mere mortals (like them) can actually understand within a reasonable amount of time.
<wpwrak>
3) is important, because many people shy away from the unknown. even if they would have no trouble with it.
<wpwrak>
e.g., i wrote my first compiler only after i read an article series in a computer magazine about how to write a simple compiler. that gave me a starting point.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: me ? my scholarly interest is in enhancing computation. basically make the compiler figure out what hardware feature/structure could solve a particular part of the computation the program requires, then synthesize it ad hoc.
<kristianpaul>
yummy :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: that's of course quite basic research with a very long time horizon. maybe ~5 years before it's actually useful for more than isolated demo cases. perhaps a whole decade before it's something you'd want to consider a tool like lex or yacc.
<wpwrak>
and maybe one more decade before your compiler just does it without you even noticing :)
<kristianpaul>
gotta go read you later
<wpwrak>
over such a time span, technology will also change. fpga in ten years will be different from fpgas today. not just bigger and faster. so it's not only a question of developing a branch of science that works with today's zoo of FPGAs, but also to extract more fundamental structural elements, patterns, and trends, and to extrapolate from these.
<roh>
wpwrak: well.. if you think.. when i compare 10 years ago with now, not much changed. especially the tools seem to have stood still.
<roh>
so.. i am optimistic about a lot of things, but not any progess there.
<wpwrak>
roh: oh yes, development is super-slow at the moment. there's no synergy. and all the interesting bits and pieces are kept a secret. but when you start breaking down the walls, the critters who like to dwell in obscurity will get restless :)
<wpwrak>
roh: also, what you do see is the addition of more/larger fixed-function blocks.
<roh>
heh.. well.. the latter is quite boring
<roh>
i'd like to see some work on cpu/fpga combo chips.. they atleast have a serious chance to perform before becoming a asic
<wpwrak>
it's something you have to consider. how to incorporate them into your model of the device and how to use them efficiently.
<wpwrak>
yes, cpu+fpga combos are another dimension
<roh>
wpwrak: e.g. some 800mhz or more arm with a fpga to develop the soc around it.
<roh>
but wasting my time with more <400mhz devices is out of the question for me.
<roh>
alteast nowadays.. was different 5 years ago, but one has to be realistic
<lekernel>
another fact that show how much hackers suck at computer architecture is their strong belief in the MHz myth
<wpwrak>
lekernel: ;-))))
<lekernel>
clock frequency is one performance factor among tens of thousands
<wpwrak>
and one where you have the fewest possibilities to improve things. well, unless you happen to have a fab in your backyard and enjoy some pretty hardcore fundamental research :)
<lekernel>
even after years the super-conservative (real mode etc.) Intel has started making multicore chips, they still don't get it
<wpwrak>
roh: let the dinosaurs have the MHz. let us quick and smart mammals have parallelism :)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: well multicore is at least one timid step in the right direction :)
<wpwrak>
jiri_brozovsky: (ubb-vga) great ! and don't worry about the complexity ! it's not all that hard. it looks much weirder than it really is :)
<jiri_brozovsky>
wpwrak: I have 10 UBB boards. So hopefully I will be able to build ubb-vga at the end...
<wpwrak>
jiri_brozovsky: yeah, you'll probably waste 1-2 before you get it right. but they're quite robust, so don't worry too much :)
<wpwrak>
rejon__: i think your spiritual guidance is required in the logo thread
<wpwrak>
rejon__: you need to declare a winner for the basic shape. or propose changes. all we strive for is to approximate the splendor of your original design, yet it would be blasphemous to even think we could decide among ourselves which is best :)
<wpwrak>
(let's see if groveling gets this done :)
<tick_rate>
wpwrak: Just joined, but have been lurking for the last year. I built the ubb-vga weeks ago on a breadboard. Just diplayed a 640x480 shot on a dell.
<wpwrak>
tick_rate: wheee !!!! great !
<tick_rate>
I also have the atben to atben working. (yep I have 2 bens) I tried messing with the atusb code and try to help, but its not going well.
<wpwrak>
(atben to atben) nice !
<wpwrak>
where did you run into problems with the atusb code ?
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: increased drill hole in 200 mil headers from 1.0 mm to 1.1 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/e9be8ab
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed 90 deg front corner to 45 deg; added date, author, etc. text (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ab89863
<tick_rate>
inserting the device works fine, and I can ping (same problem with DUPS). When I remove it it locks the whole PC.
<wpwrak>
notices approvingly the dwindling stock of pertinax boards. soon, i'll be FR4 only. well, may have to restock on single-sided ones. they're quite handy for mounting things for the mill.
<wpwrak>
tick_rate: oh, i actually never tried to hot-unplug ;-))
<tick_rate>
i tried looking in to the code (even bought a kernel book). I guess its beyond me at the moment.
<wpwrak>
but yes, i think i can see a number of things that would go terribly wrong ... :)
<wpwrak>
hehe :) yeah, atusb isn't the friendliest code ... does a few dirty things. the new version will be nicer - i'll get rid of the spi layer and just be an ieee 802.15.4 device. that way, some of the more awkward bits can go.
<roh>
lekernel: i am well aware of parallelism vs mhz. but as long as we dont have the whole sw world switch to sw arch which can really gain from that we still need fast cpus
<tick_rate>
this weekend, i hope to set up the ben-ubb->arduino. That'll be cool. Has anyone messed with serial wombat and ben?
<wpwrak>
tick_rate: probably not ... looks as if it's been obsoleted by arduino in recent years
<wpwrak>
lekernel: obsoleted by arduino, that's a what i call a cruel fate ! ;-)
<wpwrak>
ah, clever kicad issued the same tool multiple times. very smart.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: phew. good riddance ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: did they make actual chips ? or are those SMT circuits on some DIL base ?
<tick_rate>
lekernel: been thru those, yep arduino eclipses that stuff.
<lekernel>
wpwrak, sure not, all the ELM stuff is pre-programmed PIC microcontrollers
<lekernel>
they just erase the marking and put their sticker on it
<kristianpaul>
(MHz myth) oh yeah.. people always laught on me when i said i want to focus all my work and learning about FPGA, if no hihg Mhz nothing great can be achieved quoting then..
<lekernel>
kristianpaul, it just becomes more difficult. you can still quote math operations per second in many cases...
<kristianpaul>
(basic stamp) he, i rememnber thats when i decided learn some C and drop microchip asm ;)
<lekernel>
but in some cases (e.g. on a system using speculative execution, or with a memory-bound process) this metric becomes insufficient too
<tick_rate>
has anyone looked in to this: http://pocketworkstation.org/fbvnc.html for the ben. I think it was for the W100 display only on the Z. It worked great on the 5500 and C860.
<lekernel>
actually, some programmable chip companies (including xilinx) let you change the markings on the chips, add your logo, etc. most probably subject to a large MOQ, though.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: gp2rml/gp2rml.c: allow unit of Z clearance (mm) to be specified explictly (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/00166f3
<wpwrak>
maybe one could write an automatic bug fixer. serialize the whole source, change a random byte, determine how far the build goes, apply a genetic algorithm with the time-to-error as the "fitness" factor. repeat until it all compiles cleanly :)