<rick42>
Regenaxer: are you still in japan? did you drive out to meet aw? safe travels!
<Regenaxer>
Hi rick42!
<Regenaxer>
Still in Sapporo
<Regenaxer>
aw- is in Okinawa, 3000 km from here ;)
<Regenaxer>
But I'll meet Geo (the one who made PilMCU) in a few days
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<rick42>
oh good!
<rick42>
i thought aw- was on the "mainland".
<Regenaxer>
Right, in Kamakura, but he moved to the far south
<Regenaxer>
I hope to meet him in the future. My wife's brother also lives in Okinawa
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<beneroth>
hi all
<tp>
hello beneroth
<beneroth>
Hi tp
<tp>
I'm just a picolisp noob lurking here the last few days, I know Forth and making a effort to learn picolisp
<beneroth>
yeah welcome :) ask when you have something on your mind :)
<tp>
thanks!
<beneroth>
I'm using picolisp since 2014 or so, both for internal and paid customer projects (custom business applications)
<tp>
fortunately the picolisp doc is outstanding and I love the Forth influence
<beneroth>
unfortunately I don't have experience in forth, just some rough knowledge.
<beneroth>
yeah the core documentation is gold, albeit dense (good for a reference)
<tp>
what kind of projects do you use picolisp in, business related ?
<tp>
I'm a electronics tech not a real programmer and Forth was a fantastic fit for me
<beneroth>
mainly CRUD applications, so basically database with webgui, and sometimes some involved workflow logic
<tp>
I'm hoping that picolisp and I will get along well on x86 apps
<tp>
glue apps ?
<beneroth>
no, database applications based on the picolisp database
<beneroth>
cool, I think we have multiple electronics people in the community :)
<tp>
Ive used a lot of Perl and I'm hoping that picolisp can replace Perl for any new apps I write for x86, just small things and database work would be handy
<tp>
but it's early to say, I'll actually have to write something to get a idea of what I can do with it
<beneroth>
the pilDB (picolisp database) is very flexible and powerful. different than both traditional relational SQL databases and the recently hyped "NoSQL" key/value and document databases. it's kinda a blend of relational and graph database.
<beneroth>
yeah that is the best way
<beneroth>
do some real pet projects with it :)
<tp>
I used to write some small apps that used postgress and I really liked SQL, recently Ive been using sqlite to automate my fossil SCM projects as sqlite is the heart of Fossil anyway
<tp>
I also used to do automated config of wifi p-p links with a horrible Perl app I wrote, I might see if I can redo that in picolisp
<peterhil>
Hi! I am trying to install PicoLisp on Mac OS X 10.12.6, but I got one of two errors on each of the possible ways to invoke make or gmake
<peterhil>
Doing (cd src; make) gives: main.c:730:34: error: fields must have a constant size: 'variable length array in structure' extension will never be supported
<peterhil>
struct {any sym; any val;} bnd[length(y)+2];
<peterhil>
And doing (cd src64; make)
<peterhil>
"emu.symtab" -- Read open error
<peterhil>
Is there a brew, macports or fink package? Or some other package?
<peterhil>
Those errors happen both on version 18.12 and latest.
<tp>
peterhil, I dont know what the problem is, just thought Id mention I installed it on FreeBSD 11.2 a couple of days ago and no issues
<tp>
i had to use gmake as usual tho
<peterhil>
Should I use gmake on Mac OS X? It does not help with the errors though...
<tp>
if gmake doesnt help then the problem is elsewhere I guess
<tp>
I used src64
<tp>
are you making the 32 bit or the 64 bit src ?
<peterhil>
I tried both – neither of them work. Will it use the ersatz version on the first install? I have jdk1.8.
<tp>
sorry I'm not familiar with the ersatz version
<tp>
Unfortunately, ErsatzLisp lacks everything which makes up "true" PicoLisp:
<tp>
Speed, small memory footprint, and simple internal structures.
<tp>
of memory at startup (600 MB vs. 3 MB), and needs 2.5 to 4 times the space for
<tp>
Performance is rather poor. It is 5 to 10 times slower, allocates a huge amount
<tp>
runtime Lisp data.
<tp>
doesnt sound like a lot of fun even if it works ?
<peterhil>
Aha, apparenlty it uses the emulator because I have not installed PicoLisp before, and I have my Java jdk in non-standard place. Maybe that is the reason it fails?
<tp>
i hadnt installed PicoLisp before either
<peterhil>
tp: No, does not sound fun... :-D I am in awe, that PIcoLisp source package is under 1 MB compressed.
<tp>
I think that only the ersatz version needs java
<tp>
picolisp is written in assembler
<tp>
I'm really impressed with picolisp and the documentation, I'm just a lisp noob learning lisp slowly
<peterhil>
I have learned and used Common Lisp a few years back, and recently installed quite a few Scheme implementations. It is a joy to see well written Lisp code!
<tp>
peterhil, someone else had the same issue: Sep 18, 2017 - 4 posts - 4 authors
<tp>
Has anyone had luck building it on Mac (10.11.6, Clang)? ... main.c:730:34: error: fields must have a constant size: 'variable length array in ...
<tp>
peterhil, I still use a schematic capture package written in Scheme thats been flawlawless for decades
<tp>
<cobax> how do I build on the mac? I'm getting an error "main.c:730:34: error: fields must have a constant size: 'variable length array in structure' extension will never be supported"
<tp>
10:15 <freemint> mtsd when will the slides be online?
<tp>
10:15 <mtsd> Hi freemint, I'll try and get them in place next week. Some preparation to do for the trip first
<tp>
10:17 <aw-> cobax: hi, i think you need gcc on newer Mac
<tp>
10:17 <freemint> mhh then i will wait :(
<tp>
10:18 <freemint> Mac seems to default to llvm from what i know
<tp>
10:18 <aw-> freemint: yes exactly
<tp>
10:19 <aw-> cobax: easiest is to setup a TinyCore Linux VM on virtualbox, and then you can compile/use picolisp 64-bit directly on there
<tp>
hmm, I have both LLVM (clang) and GCC on this box
<beneroth>
hi and welcome peterhil
<beneroth>
picolisp 64bit cannot be built on Mac OS, and this is unlikely to change.
<tp>
beneroth, peterhil also tried 32 bit and it failed to build also
<beneroth>
picolisp 32bit cannot the built using Clang, as picolisp 32bit makes use of variable length array which are and never will be (as they say) supported in clang for some non-technical (in our view) reason
<tp>
ahh thats where the error comes from
<beneroth>
aye
<tp>
so the answer is to use gcc and 32 bit for mac ?
<beneroth>
peterhil, best way for pil on Mac OS: use a linux vm
<beneroth>
tp, I'm unsure if that works, I think it should, but I'm not sure. search mailing list.
<beneroth>
as aw- said
<beneroth>
gcc is hard to get on Mac OS X, apparently
<tp>
beneroth, PIL installed almost instantly on this FreeBSD box for me
<tp>
ahh, Ive no mac experience
<beneroth>
pil 64 is not Mac compatible because Mac is not using ELF format for executables but some other historic format (based on Mach CPU once or so..)
<beneroth>
freeBSD should work fine for pil64, pil32 may fail as BSDs use Clang by default
<tp>
ill try a 32 bit build
<tp>
compiled the 32 bit (src) version fine
<tp>
runs fine
<beneroth>
great :)
<peterhil>
tp: Thanks! I did not find anything when I google that error message.
<tp>
beneroth, 32 bit version = 304968 bytes, 64 bit = 209608
<tp>
peterhil, the chat here pretty much utlines the issues
<peterhil>
beneroth: This information would be very nice to include in the installation documentation! Why the 64 bit version can not be built on Mac OS X?
<peterhil>
I think I have several gcc versions installed – maybe I try with one of those.
<tp>
good plan
<tp>
have to be 32 bit tho
<tp>
<beneroth> pil 64 is not Mac compatible because Mac is not using ELF format for executables but some other historic format (based on Mach CPU once or so..)
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
pil64 build does not like Mac executable format
<tp>
beneroth, it was fantastic to see PIL compile so fast and without issues on bsd , Im so used to apps failing to compile because of various linuxisms
<peterhil>
Oh, well. So only ELF executable format is supported on Unix like OSes? OS X uses Mach, and if that is not supported you should as well say that you do not support Mac OS X. Now the documentation says: “It should compile and run on
<peterhil>
GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X (Darwin), Cygwin/Win32, and possibly other systems
<peterhil>
without problems.”
<tp>
peterhil, it should run using the 32 bit src ?
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<beneroth>
aye, as tp said
<peterhil>
But maybe using Tiny Core Linux on VirtualBox is actually the easiest way to go. PicoLisp is found on apt, and installed in a snap on my old crappy Linux laptop.
<beneroth>
pil64 has a few features more than pil32
<beneroth>
and is smaller and faster :)
<tp>
PicoLisp is found on apt :)
<beneroth>
afk
<tp>
oddly picolisp isnt available as a FreeBSD package
<peterhil>
(It is crappy, because it is Dell with has Celeron CPU, and Ubuntu 18.04 has had open bug with sytemd-udev open for two years that quite often completely exhausts one of the CPUs in a bind/unbind loop – the developers say this is a feature of systemd-udevd so at least you notice the problem. Well you do, but it is annoying as hell to use a machine that could freeze for 15 minutes or more at any time.
<tp>
peterhil, yuk!
<tp>
systemd is the final reason I abandoned linux for FreeBSD 3 years ago
<peterhil>
Luckily I did not pay for it, but got two used Dell laptops for free from a friend. The better one got stolen after a year.
<peterhil>
tp: I have really thought about going back to FreeBSd on the laptop.
<peterhil>
I hate systemd and selinux.
<tp>
peterhil, actually I use linux on my laptop as it supports the hardwae a lot better
<tp>
I'm running linux MX on a thinkpad X61s circa 2000 I think
<peterhil>
I used BreeBSD 6 on a Thinkpad, and it worked mostly ok. The only thing was that using wifi was partly manual.
<tp>
yeah, I had that issue as well
<beneroth>
I'm currently running trisquel distro to avoid systemd :)
<tp>
But Linux is fine and linux MX doesnt install systemd but uses some framework for it because of compatibility etc
<tp>
beneroth, hahah, so many people really dont like systemd
<peterhil>
Good to know! I'll bookmark those. Getting back to topic: Can PicoLisp used for making Android apps?
<peterhil>
And should it, if Ersatz is so slow?
<tp>
i found a interesting application called 'Nosh' that converts systemd and other inits to a more reasonable system
<tp>
dont you need dalvic for android ( me clueless)
<Blue_flame>
It doesn't use ersatz it's the 64-bit of picolisp.
<Blue_flame>
*perterhil...
<Blue_flame>
auto-correct messed 2nd time. last try peterhil
<tp>
Blue_flame, thanks, it was your comment to Dkordic on #forth that led me here a few days ago!
<Blue_flame>
Awesome, it was the mention of forth like syntax being used in past version being simpler in picolisp, which lead me to forth programming language.
<tp>
hahah awesome!
<tp>
Im a Forth addict on embedded myself and a lisp noob but PIL may be what I was looking for especially given it's influence by Forth
<Blue_flame>
Yeah, compared to common and lisp and others it's simpler. There's also minipicolisp for embedded stuff.
<Blue_flame>
*Common lisp and others
<tp>
ill never give up Forth on embedded but I want to use Lisp on X86 for my PC apps
<tp>
Blue_flame, minipicolisp compiled to 166800 bytes on this FreeBSD box :)
<tp>
picolisp on this bsd machine: 32 bit version = 304968 bytes, 64 bit = 209608
<Blue_flame>
That's 166.8kb 304.9kb 208.6kb, not bad. Use KB it's simpler
<tp>
I'm from the embedded world where a maximum ram is 8kb
<tp>
and Forth on such a device is 20KB
<Blue_flame>
I'm from mobile world where smallest is 1gb. I only think about MB never a few kb. Unless, it adds up and makes a big diffirence.
<tp>
from the tiny to the huge :)
<tp>
Blue_flame, can PilBox make use of whatever version of opengl they use in android ?
<tp>
I ask on behalf of a daughter whos making a android app that uses some kind of opengl I believe
<Blue_flame>
If there's a Java API then I can't see, why not. Regenaxer can know more.
<tp>
thanks, I can pass that along to her
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<beneroth>
there is a java FFI in pilbox, afaik
<tp>
ta
<beneroth>
Blue_flame, 1gb on mobile? sick sick world. I was cultured by C++ gamedevs who grow up in the golden c64 days. This current waste of resources bothers me, even when its often justified when balanced with precious developer time...
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<Blue_flame>
The waste of resource is becoming very apparent daily. When apps start to grow. The shift to 64-bits(arm) almost doubled the memory requirements. So, minimal is now 2gb for doing anything decent. Webpages loading megabytes worth of assets. When I only check for the HTML.
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