adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<tyonkman> I just installed opam and ocaml on a CentOS 7.2 system. When I try to install ocaml-findlib-devel I get errors saying that ocaml-runtime-4.02.3 is found by ocaml-runtime-4.01.0 is desired. Are the 4.02 packages being created now?
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<Drup> if you have opam, you don't need anything else
<Drup> just install everything through opam
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<struk|desk> Drup: "opam install everything ; [ERROR] No package named everything found."
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<Drup> struk|desk: I'm tempted to do a PR to add the package
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<struk|desk> ha yeah it's kind of a cool package name
<struk|desk> would you literally have it install everything?
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<apache2> asking for conflicts :P
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<apache2> if one package depends on qwerty.1.0.3 and another depends on qwerty.1.0.4, that would break the build, correct?
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<Drup> it will break before build
<Drup> during dependency resolution
<Drup> (and it should give you an explanation)
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<Algebr`> I thought that this code would run on its own, ie thought that the Lwt.async would be like a fork and running on its own, but apparently that isn't the case http://pastebin.com/mpkSfbyT
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<MercurialAlchemi> hi folks
<MercurialAlchemi> I have a mystifing opam build problem
<MercurialAlchemi> hm, not opam, actually...
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<Accidus> OK, I think I know how to fix the bug in the source code, but I have no idea how to get opam to use the corrected code
<edwin> opam pin
<edwin> you can tell it to pin either a directory, or a git repo
<Accidus> Ah, thanks. Let's try
<edwin> and you can also use opam pin -k git to pin a local git repo
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<Accidus> OK, that's progress. But I think I'm still doing something wrong.
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<Accidus> I.e., I think I pinned the wrong directory or something. Or that I'm trying to pin an automatically generated configuration file. I'm not sure.
<Accidus> Hm...
<edwin> is the file in git?
<edwin> runing 'opam pin' should print all pins
<edwin> e.g. for me it outputs something like:
<edwin> cohttp.0.19.3 git /home/edwin/my/ocaml-cohttp
<Accidus> Perhaps we should backtrack a bit.
<Accidus> Because I'm a complete newbie when it comes to opam.
<Accidus> (sorry, I'm a bit of an oldie.)
<Accidus> I have a package (ocp-build in this instance) --- which source code should I be playing with?
<Accidus> (or rather, how do I find out which source code I should be playing with)
<Accidus> I was quite bluntly just editting the .opam/4.03.0+trunk subdirectory)
<edwin> are you trying to fix a problem in the source code or the opam build rules?
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<Accidus> That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. The offending file seems to be ~/.opam/4.03.0+trunk/build/ocp-build.1.99.9-beta/simpleConfig.ml4'
<Accidus> Is that a build rule or a source code? :)
<edwin> that is something from ocp-build's source code
<Accidus> That's progress
<edwin> but most definetley the wrong file to edit
<Accidus> I thought as much!
<edwin> I mean stuff in ~/.opam/.../build
<Accidus> Yup, I agree. :)
<edwin> so what you could do is get ocp-build's source code or git repo, for example: opam source ocp-build
<edwin> make your modifications there
<edwin> then do something like: opam pin add ocp-build $(pwd)
<Accidus> Should I be worried about "Fatal error:
<Accidus> OpamSystem.File_not_found("~/ocp-build.1.99.9-beta/opam")"
<Accidus> after I do the opam source ocp-build?
<Accidus> It did seem to generate the right directories
<edwin> I don't get that message with opam 1.2.0
<Accidus> I'm on 1.2.2
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<Accidus> Hooray, this seems to have worked. Thanks!
<Accidus> So now I allegedly have a patch I can submit, right?
<Accidus> Let's see if I can work this out.
<edwin> (its also possible to apply patches using the rules from the opam repository, but its better to have things patched upstream)
<Accidus> The sourcecode I got with opam isn't versioned by git
<Accidus> Is there a way to get a versioned source somehow?
<edwin> --dev-repo, but I don't know where ocp-build's git repo is (if any)
<edwin> you can create the patch the old fashioned way by downloading the original source again in a different dir and using diff
<Accidus> Ah, it doesn't seem to be available. OK, I'll do that. Thanks.
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<Accidus> What's the compiler flag to make the type checker include module qualifiers in error reporting?
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<Accidus> I mean, there must be a standard way to debug "Error: Signature mismatch: ...
<Accidus> Values do not match: val cmp : p -> t -> t -> lt_proof option
<Accidus> is not included in val cmp : p -> t -> t -> lt_proof option"
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<kaustuv> Is there any chance that ocamlfind becomes a part of OPAM in the future? Or subsumed by OPAM the same as GODI was subsumed?
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<Drup> hard to tell
<edwin> what features are you missing from ocamlfind?
<gasche> I'm also unconvinced that this would be a good thing but, in kaustuv's defense, one could argue that merging opam and META files could simplify the life of library authors
<gasche> (those that do not use OASIS)
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<companion_cube> don't forget the .merlin file!
<companion_cube> :)
<Drup> gasche: I think it's also related to your recent "death by a thousand paper cuts" mail
<Drup> we have 3 stacks of "category"
<Drup> opam package, ocamlfind libraries, modules
<Drup> I'm not sure we really need the one in the middle
<kaustuv> The way I see it, since ocamlbuild is now free to live its own life, it can evolve to do whatever ocamlfind does natively
<kaustuv> And then we wouldn't need ocamlfind anymore except for those who use OCamlMakefile or omake (but we can shun them!)
<gasche> companion_cube: why does oasis not generate a .merlin file?
<Drup> kaustuv: I really don't think mergin ocamlbuild and ocamlfind is a good idea, no
<companion_cube> I think it's because no-one contributes to oasis :/
<companion_cube> almost no-one
<gasche> companion_cube: why don't you?
<gasche> it's on github
<companion_cube> I looked at the code
<Drup> gasche: because the codebase is a nightmare
<Drup> that's why no one contributes
<kaustuv> Drup: not merge. Embrace and extend.
<gasche> cry babies :]
<companion_cube> :D
<gasche> you don't need to like the codebase to contribute to a project
<Drup> gasche: I hacked bot the ocaml compiler and the ocsigen codebase, no, I don't think I'm a cry baby on that one. :]
<gasche> writing a .merlin generator should not be very hard
<gasche> (I was mostly joking of course)
<kaustuv> I use different .merlins for different projects. Often different .merlins in the same project!
<companion_cube> probably not, indeed, but it's easier to just write .merlin by hand…
<gasche> kaustuv: why would you have different .merlin for the same project?
<kaustuv> FLG
<Drup> gasche: you are, but I'm not. This code base is really really difficult
<gasche> well
<gasche> I have another option for you two
<gasche> implement _oasis support in Merlin
<kaustuv> Also PKG. I don't trust any piece of software to know what packages I want in scope.
<gasche> kaustuv: well the information should be available in BuildDepends if you use oasis
<Drup> gasche: pretty sure def` stated he didn't want that
<gasche> (and it sounds like an area where an over-approximation should not hurt)
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<Drup> (do I remember correctly ?)
<gasche> there is a difference between "I wouldn't work on it myself because I'm not fond of the idea" and "I will refuse your pull request"
<kaustuv> gasche: for me oasis solves a problem I don't have, which is writing Makefiles and using ocamlbuild. So, I never learned oasis and don't see myself switching to it.
<gasche> sometimes you can only tell by sending the PR
<gasche> I agree that oasis as an ocamlbuild overlay only is not convincing; but it should also help for configuration and packaging
<gasche> I mean the _oasis file could act as a "single point of description of what this project is about"
<def`> Drup: at the exact same minute I sent a mail saying the opposite to gasche :)
<gasche> currently the oasis implementation (by file generation) is unpalatable to many
<gasche> but the real value is in the _oasis file format
<kaustuv> The one time I tried to use oasis, I had to back off because it wanted me to inventory all the files in my software. This is something I would much rather have managed automatically by ocamlbuild. It's almost the killer feature of ocamlbuild.
<edwin> if you build libraries don't you need to list which modules are part of it anyway?
<companion_cube> I use oasis mostly because of the configure file generation, indeed, not just for the build system
<Drup> def`: ok, I remember you saying that a long long time ago
<def`> Drup: but you remember correctly. I don't want too much adhoc logic in merlin, but I am ok to have an optional dependency on a lib doing the resolution (resolving _tags, _oasis, whatever)
<Drup> right
<companion_cube> kaustuv: I used to think like you, but it's not different actually: for a library you need a .mllib anyway
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<companion_cube> and for a binary, oasis only asks for the main module
<Drup> We could use a proper independent parser for _oasis files anyway
<kaustuv> edwin: I don't build a whole lot of libraries. I accept that oasis can have a good use case for libraries, which are after all intended to be packaged
<Drup> (at least to replace the default parser, which is really bad)
<companion_cube> oh my, decent error messages?
<gasche> menhir :-'
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<Drup> gasche: exactly what I was thinking
<Drup> I could try the new features with that
<edwin> _tags support would be nice, that'd work both for oasis generated builds, and handwritten ocamlbuild systems?
* Drup adds on the todo list
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<companion_cube> even ocamlyacc would be better, I think, there is almost no error reporting in oasis
<def`> we have 3 stacks of "category"... 4 :)
<Drup> def`: what's the fourth ?
<def`> opam, findlib, ocaml libraries, ocaml modules.
<companion_cube> and ocaml packs
<Drup> ah, yeah ...
<gasche> def`: ocaml *archives*
<def`> PAN
<gasche> (packs don't count, they are just modules)
<companion_cube> they do count, they are the sole way of namespacing
<companion_cube> (currently)
<gasche> at the ocamlbuild level I could implement something like
<gasche> ocamlbuild -project-config
<Drup> def`: arguably, ocaml archives and findlib things are a bit conflated at the moment
<companion_cube> if ocamlbuild could read _oasis files... ;)
<def`> packs contribute to the clusterfuck at a different level
<gasche> that would try to output stuff useful to others in some format
<gasche> companion_cube: that suggestion was part of the email def` was replying to
<gasche> what should ocamlbuild -project-config do?
<companion_cube> oh.
<gasche> (and is it a good interface?)
<gasche> hm
<gasche> it would not work for people that pass all their tags from a Makefile rule
<kaustuv> I'm still curious what is the downside of built-in ocamlfind technology in ocamlbuild.
<companion_cube> it should obviously call oasis -setup configure!
<companion_cube> ^^
<gasche> kaustuv: we used to have some level of built-in logic invoking Findlib directly
<Drup> kaustuv: ocamlbuild already calls ocamlfind, what's your point ?
<gasche> it never worked as robustly as ocamlfind
<gasche> also, some people care about using other build systems, and we should respect that choice and share work with them whenever reasonable
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<gasche> I'm not sure I see what the upsides would be
<kaustuv> You already said what the upside is: merging the opam package and the META files
<Drup> gasche: now that ocamlbuild is out of the compiler, we could force the dependency to ocamlfind, though
<gasche> kaustuv: but that's not at the ocamlbuild level
<Drup> kaustuv: I don't see how ocamlbuild and opam are related
<gasche> Drup: this never was the reason why we did not force a dependency
<def`> kaustuv: it can be done differently
<kaustuv> The point is they *can* be related now
<gasche> (and I'd still not like to force it)
<gasche> we could make -use-ocamlfind the default, but that is orthogonal to whether ocamlbuild is out or not
<Drup> you tried that once, iirc
<gasche> (when we tried the first time we did not do it carefully enough)
<Drup> ok
<Drup> I think it would be good yes
<gasche> you cannot add -no-ocamlfind and make -use-ocamlfind the default in the same version
<gasche> because it means people cannot write software that does not use ocamlfind yet supports existing versions
<kaustuv> Ultimately I would like the following questions to have simple and canonical answers: What is the OCaml package manager? What is the OCaml build system?
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<gasche> that's kind of the Amdahl Law of release management
<companion_cube> there are no canonical answers, and I'm not sure there will be
<gasche> kaustuv: there is a thread on the caml-list that is strongly related to those questions
<gasche> you should send an email there :-)
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<def`> for the first question, there should be a canonical answer.
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<gasche> well OPAM is a rather canonical one
<gasche> consensual, at least
<gasche> I think I see kaustuv's point now
<gasche> opam could be in charge of generating a META file
<kaustuv> Except OPAM still requires ocamlfind to function
<gasche> but it needs to know which archives to install
<def`> I agree. It is necessary to ensuire "cooperative" work in an open world.
<gasche> and this is build-system-level knowledge currently
<companion_cube> kaustuv: if we merge ocamlfind and opam, every build system (and project) will start depending on opam
<def`> FOr the build system... It's a private issue, people are allowed to have different opinion :)
<gasche> so I think this amounts to Daniel's request to get more information about what to install from ocamlbuild
<gasche> which is a fair request
<kaustuv> companion_cube: Is that a problem? Everything depends on ocamlfind already.
<gasche> (I'm not sure if the information needed for a .install and a META are related)
<companion_cube> kaustuv: ocamlfind is small and lightweight; opam is not
<gasche> kaustuv: also there are people politics involved
<Drup> opam is a tad bigger than ocamlfind :p
<kaustuv> If you are using opam, chances are a dependency on opam is a no-op
<gasche> Gerd did not appreciate the way godi was pushed out by opam
<def`> gasche: not sufficiently... But opam files could be extended to handle the non-overlapping parts
<companion_cube> also, opam requires this monstruously big C++ codebase that is aspcud
<gasche> I doubt he would be enthusiastic about replacing ocamlfind with opam
<Drup> kaustuv: irrelevant. You want ocaml libraries to be instalable in distribs without opam
<companion_cube> you could, maybe, make ocamlfind a (autonomous) part of opam, one that doesn't know about downloading packages and dependency solving
<def`> gasche: irrelevant too.
<gasche> (and I think this matter: the bar should be higher for actions that make valuable people of the community angry)
<def`> We are looking for a technical solution.
<Drup> gasche: improving the community > pleasing gerd
<kaustuv> Drup: to take a parallel, do you want Haskell libraries to be installable without Cabal? Or Ruby gems without gem?
<def`> +1
<Drup> kaustuv: tbh, I don't want to install haskell libraries with cabal
<Drup> because it sucks
<def`> gasche: then we should discuss asap about what would please gerd
<kaustuv> All language-specific package managers such to a certain extent, but they are a necessary evil since distribution package managers cater to users, not devs.
<def`> because the situation is a bit messy, and everything that can help should be considered
<kaustuv> s/such/suck/
<edwin> related to 'What is the OCaml build system?' there should be an answer to 'OCaml package fails to build on my platform, how do I fix it?'. Although some BSD ports (e.g. FreeBSD?) has special support for OASIS, not every package uses it, and I've seen some BSD ports just copy build rules in the port, because upstream build system didn't install stuff in proper places (cmxs files, etc.)
<gasche> I'm a bit shocked by the way you ( Drup and def` ) are so quick to disregard someone's good work for rather hypothetic wins
<Drup> edwin: that's the strenght of oasis
<Drup> it works on most plateforms
<gasche> in any case, time to go back to work
<Drup> gasche: nothing is done, we are just considering options, I don't see the problem
<gasche> if you have well thought-out suggestions, there is a caml-list thread begging for more inputs
<kaustuv> I think Gerd does stellar work. I have nothing against him. FWIW.
<edwin> yes, given an opam package I can't say the same currently
<def`> gasche: It is not disregard. I say it is wrong to put a handicap to counter the hypothetic reaction of gerd
<gasche> well
<gasche> if the option really was such a good idea, the higher bar would not be an issue
<companion_cube> also, opam bundle is for 1.3, right? it's exactly the use case for ocamlfind-without-opam
<gasche> if it is only a small improvement, surely there are more pressing changes to suggest
<companion_cube> or at least build-project-without-opam
<def`> gasche: it is even unclear what this solution is, hard to tell in such conditions :)
<gasche> I probably have misunderstood your reaction to my "the bar should be higher" point, then
<gasche> in any case, caml-list
<Drup> :3
<companion_cube> gaaaaah toml is broken again
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<kaustuv> Re that post: clearly opam needs to have ocaml{c,opt,doc,build} functionality natively instead of calling external software. Get on it OCP!
<companion_cube> also, remember that opam might be used for non-ocaml software (e.g., Coq)
<kaustuv> Re build dependencies: this is kind of a valid point. Currently to install ocp-indent you need to install ocp-build, which pulls in Camlp4. This seems excessive since ocp-indent itself doesn't use Camlp4! (I may be wrong.)
<def`> the build of ocp-indent is an issue in and of itself
<def`> you are right it is absurd, but it has nothing to do with opam
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<kaustuv> As it turns out, ocp-build doesn't compile with 4.03.0, probably since Map.S changed. Where do I file bug reports?
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<Drup> there is already one
<kaustuv> Is OCamlPro/ocp-build the place to file issues? Since the code itself isn't there.
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<kaustuv> Well I'll have to figure this out some other day. Happy festivus, everyone.
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<Accidus> Drup, not only there's a bug report, there's also a fix ;)
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<Algebr> it would be nice to eliminate something from the build stack.
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<Algebr> gasche: and is ocamlbuild -project-config a hypothethical or somethign planned?
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<edwin> hmm I was trying to use OPAMBUILDTEST and oasis's testsuite fails, is that very compiler version dependent? with 4.01.0 it complains about cmt/cmti differences, and with 4.02.3 it (also) complains about some html file differences (probably ocamldoc changes)
<edwin> can I turn off tests just for a specific package?
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