adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<artart78> hell, I reinstalled z3 through opam using a pinned version tagged version (I used master before, but it was crashing), and now when compiling a program using it, I get: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lz3
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<artart78> (using ocamlbuild)
<artart78> with CAML_LD_LIBRARY_PATH = /home/artart78/.opam/system/lib/stublibs:/usr/lib/ocaml/stublibs and libz3.so being in ~/.opam/system/lib/stublibs
<artart78> any idea?
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<artart78> ok, I just copied libz3.so into ~/.opam/system/lib/Z3, quite hacky but well
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<ismaelga> Hello. Can someone point me to the docs about >>= operator? I simply can't find it
<companion_cube> it depends on the module you're using
<companion_cube> >>= is usually a "monad" operator, but it has instances dedicated to lists, options, futures....
<madroach> For janestreet core it is documented here: https://github.com/janestreet/core_kernel/blob/master/src/monad_intf.ml#L29-L32
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<ismaelga> is it like |> but passing the result as first param?
<rks`> (for async, http://janestreet.github.io/guide-async.html might be a better doc)
<ismaelga> Ok. So the one I was trying to understand actually comes from Lwt
<rks`> (but the explanation should be the same as for async)
<ismaelga> cool. Thanks! I tought it was part of ocaml itself
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<Leonidas> ismaelga: no, there's like 241 versions of it: https://ocamloscope.herokuapp.com/?q=%3E%3E%3D
<Leonidas> in the 100 most popular opam packages I believe
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<ismaelga> Leonidas: wow. I hope they all have similar behaviour. Thank you for the link
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<crocket> Is it a good idea to write a new operating system from scratch in OCaml?
<pierpa> IF it is a good idea to write a new OS, THEN it is a good idea to write it in ocaml, yes
<crocket> Assume the if part is true.
<crocket> Then, yes?
<pierpa> I'd say yes
<crocket> How?
<pierpa> what do you mean?
<crocket> It has to bootstrap its own runtime.
<crocket> How would it bootstrap itself?
<pierpa> how would you do it in any other language?
<crocket> It has garbage collector
<crocket> I don't know how other langauges do it
<crocket> According to my meager knowledge, C doesn't have a particular runtime.
<pierpa> probably it will require small blobs of assembly
<crocket> C probably bootstrapped itself from assembly.
<pierpa> you don't need to bootstrap the language. you already have a working compiler
<crocket> Huh.. maybe
<pierpa> many clues indicate that the ocaml compiler does work
<crocket> Is there any real experiment conforming that it's a good idea to write an OS in ocaml?
<pierpa> this one, maybe https://mirage.io/
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<crocket> That's not a bare metal OS.
<crocket> Probably, I'm trying to solve a non-problem.
<crocket> Writing an OS is not my problem.
<hannes> crocket: there's a bare metal OCaml on raspberry pi at http://erratique.ch/software/rpi-boot-ocaml
<theblatte> crocket: https://github.com/smimram/funk
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<crocket> What is meant by OCaml system?
<crocket> Is it an OCaml OS?
<crocket> Hmm.... obviously, it has C and assembly.
<crocket> C account for a quarter.
<crocket> C accounts for a quarter.
<crocket> If C and assembly only accounted for 1%, that's better.
<crocket> or 0%
<fds> https://github.com/mato/opam-rumprun suggests Mirage runs (experimentally?) on bare metal.
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<fds> Meh, eliminating C is basically tilting at windmills, AFAICS.
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<crocket> I heard linux is 99% C and 1% assembly.
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<crocket> 98% OCaml, 1% C, 1% Assembly may pass the threshold of being an OCaml kernel.
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<edwin> there was some discussion about kernels and ocaml here as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/ocaml/comments/3je6vt/migrating_a_microkernel_os_to_ocaml/
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<crocket> edwin, You're the main idris developer, right?
<edwin> no, thats a different edwin
<crocket> ok
<crocket> edwinb
<crocket> Common names are problems.
<crocket> I want to choose a second name, but I haven't been able to find a suitable name that's unique.
<crocket> Ok, that's your last name
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<crocket> Ok, enough chitchat
<crocket> There's a problem with OCaml kernel.
<crocket> A general purpose OS needs threads.
<crocket> As far as I know, there is no thread in ocaml.
<companion_cube> I think a unikernel is not a general-purpose kernel, but you are right
<companion_cube> OCaml currently has lightweight threads
<Drup> this contains an opam package for Z3 (and for Z3overlay) that should work out of the box
<freehck> freehck@ws-kashin:~/jet-src-bf% bf2 buildpkg
<freehck> bf2: required argument PLATFORM is missing
<freehck> Usage: bf2 buildpkg [OPTION]... PKGNAME VERSION PLATFORM
<freehck> cool :/
<freehck> It seems to be a bug, isn't it?
<flux> bug that it doesn't say required argument PKGNAME is missing?
<freehck> flux: yep
<flux> I think the problem is that it only says one error message at a time, and another perhaps unintuitive feature is that the order isn't left-to-right
<flux> the best solution would fix both :)
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<freehck`> flux: I suppose the problem is in intertal command matching. I see that I can access subcommand arguments enumerating them from 0. Cmdliner sees that The 3rd parameter of command has been missed. And reported that there's not the 3rd parameter of SUBcommand.
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<freehck`> Okay, I've sent it to github.
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<artart78> Drup: yeah, I used this one, but after updating I had issues because Z3's master probably has a bug right, so I cloned Z3's repo at the latest tag and used the same opam file as here (I put it in the git directory and did 'opam pin add Z3 .') but now for some reason I need some "hacks" for it to work
<artart78> https://github.com/termite-analyser/opam-termite/blob/master/packages/Z3/Z3.dev/opam → there's a message about some "hack" though, although I didn't need this one before for some reason
<artart78> but well, I just have to copy libz3.so and add this to LD_LIBRARY_PATH at runtime so it's not that painful
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<Leonidas> pierpa: well, OCaml requires a GC, so it needs some runtime environment, whereas C doesn't.
<Leonidas> I guess you could write a runtime in Rust, then you could run OCaml
<Leonidas> didn't know you could boot the Raspi into OCaml, thats rather neat :)
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<Drup> artart78: the copying should be automated
<artart78> Drup: well, it's only put in lib/stublibs/, I don't know if they're really supposed to be in lib/Z3/?
<Drup> No, I mean, I added something to put it in lib/Z3 too :D
<Drup> (in the opam package)
<artart78> but ocamlfind does not check lib/stublibs/ when linking so..
<artart78> oh ok
<artart78> well since it's in a Z3 directory I consider it's clean enough :P
<Drup> yes
<artart78> and I'll just wait for an official clean package
<Drup> anyway, you could have just done "opam pin add Z3 https://github.com/Z3Prover/z3.git#TAG"
<Drup> (assuming you added the opam-termite repository, obviously)
<artart78> oh nice, thanks for the tip
<Drup> (if that doesn't work, please open a bug report)
<Leonidas> I wonder how ocapic does GC
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<flux> my guess is: basically the same as ocaml?
<Leonidas> I had this idea of OCaml in my keyboard, but there is no ocaarm yet
<Drup> Leonidas: sure there is
<Leonidas> flux: but it does require to have some kind of runtime.
<Leonidas> Drup: "ocacortexm4"
<Leonidas> ocaml on arm exists indeed
<Drup> :p
<Drup> Leonidas: ocapic uses bytecode
<artart78> oh Drup, I didn't realize you were the one making this opam package xD
<flux> leonidas, well, why couldn't it have a runtime?
<artart78> < Drup> No, I mean, I added something to put it in lib/Z3 too :D → what are you talking about exactly?
<Leonidas> flux: It totally could.
<flux> I reaally should try ocapic, I have the chips
<Drup> Leonidas: ocapic uses ocamlrun
<artart78> right, that's what I guessed, thanks
<Drup> and it runs the bytecode
<Leonidas> looks like the Cortex M4 is ARMv7
<Leonidas> so this raspi-boot-thing from dbunzli could totally be ported over with small changes
<Leonidas> this is amazing!
<Drup> artart78: are you using Z3overlay too ?
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<artart78> Drup: nope, I didn't really see the use at first and was afraid that it could be non-trivial to install / not up to date / not complete, but maybe I was wrong?
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<artart78> seems nice to have typechecking for formulas though, although I got only one of these errors ;p
<Drup> once you have installed Z3, everything else is trivial to install
<Leonidas> Drup: kinda amusing that the ocaml bytecode turned out to be useful for porting ocaml to exotic platforms :)
<Drup> it isn't really, but yes =)
<Drup> (I mean, it's not surprising, but yes, it's amusing :p)
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<Leonidas> well, PIC microcontrollers, Javascript…
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<flux> but that's a big part of the reason why bytecode exists :)
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<Leonidas> how portable is ocaml bytecode? because Python bytecode isn't.
<flux> I think it has its issues.. at least 32/64 bit, not sure about endianess.
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<Drup> there are options to ensure that code compiled on 64 bit plateforms is ok for 32 bits ones
<Drup> endianess, I don't know
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<pierpa> Leonidas: even if it would need a GC written in a lower level language, it wouldn't mean it's not written in Ocaml. If so, then currently there would be no program written in Ocaml, as the current runtime has parts written in C and assembly.
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<Leonidas> pierpa: yes, sure, if you would port the minimally required runtime on bare bones hardware, then you could write most of your kernel in OCaml.
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<flux> wish mirage supported KVM. and VirtualBox.
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<Leonidas> yes. or xen supported armv6.
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<freehck> Could somebody provide me with an example of using cmdliner for numerous options that are common for subcommands?
<freehck> The "darcs_ex.ml" example uses only 3 options and it seems to not work when I need 100+ of them.
<freehck> Well, it would work, but it is quite difficult to describe all the options this way.
<freehck> Maybe I missed some sense of course.
<edwin> freehck: I build a record with the common options
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<edwin> ah looks like mine is same as darcs
<edwin> if you have 100+ options maybe using a configuration file would be better than command-line
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<freehck> edwin: The idea was to give user an ability to redefine options by fly. I mean that firstly config file is readed and all the configuration options are defined. And then you can use option, f.e. --log-level=high, in order to redefine the value of configuration parameter log-level.
<edwin> maybe generate a map or hashtbl instead of a record then
<freehck> Hm...
<freehck> It's an idea!
<edwin> if you have your config file in a map you could then merge the map from cmdline with that map
<freehck> But I still don't understand how to define a term for such purpose.
<freehck> hm... Now I've got some view of the solution. I'll try to solve. Thank you, edwin.
<edwin> can you pass a list with cmdliner?
<freehck> Specifically what I'm trying to do right now.
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<edwin> I think you'd have to define just one Term.const for each config item
<edwin> that updates your map
<freehck> edwin: Term.const?
<freehck> What is it?
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<freehck> Aaah, Term.pure...
<edwin> problem might be that in the end term wants a function to invoke with your 100+ args
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<freehck> edwin: I see the solution this way:
<freehck> let param1 = Arg.(...) in let param2 = Arg.(...) in
<freehck> Term.(pure apply_param_opts $ pure params)
<freehck> let params = [("param1", param1); ("param2", param2)] in
<freehck> So I can define a function which needs only 1 argument.
<edwin> ok and will the function get the evaluated term?
<freehck> I suppose so.
<freehck> I need to try it. I don't really understand how terms are evaluated.
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<Drup> freehck: You can compute the terms programatically from your map, I think it's your best option
<Drup> (I would argue, however, that if you have 100 options in your CLI, your CLI may need redesign)
<freehck> Drup: say it to gcc project developers! :)
<freehck> Drup: well, could you give me an example of such kind of map?
<Drup> freehck: Oh, but in gcc those are options
<Drup> not verbs
<Drup> I meant verbs
<Drup> (like in the darcs commands, those are verbs)
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<freehck> "19:20 <Drup> (I would argue, however, that if you have 100 VERBS in your CLI, your CLI may need redesign)" ???
<freehck> Well, I have specifically options.
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<Drup> freehck: anyway, it seems to me the complexity of having 100 options in cmdliner is more in the "100 options" than in the "cmdliner"
<Drup> do you have a structure for your options ?
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<freehck> Drup: No. But I have a hashtbl.t with user params which could be set with these options.
<Drup> the other option being a big record
<companion_cube> sounds like Arg would work :p
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<Drup> companion_cube: tbh, at this point, it doesn't make a difference, if you have no structure for your options, it's going to be a big list of things ...
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<companion_cube> yeah, it's just easier with Arg and dirty mutability everywhere, I think
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<edwin> cmdliner is nice if you want the manpages, although with 100 options you probably won't write more than a short description of each
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<Drup> companion_cube: the dirty mutability solution works fine in cmdliner, though :p
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<Drup> it makes the cmdliner version pretty similar in term of code, just with documentation in it.
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<theblatte> opam upgrade failed on merlin, is it a known problem? http://paste.debian.net/plain/340952
<edwin> if you have so many options and can't get cmdliner to do what you want, perhaps you could generate the .ml file from another .ml file. not sure if you'll hit some limits in cmdliner or the ocaml runtime that way
<theblatte> - upgrade merlin from 2.1.2 to 2.3.1
<edwin> here is how gcc's input for some of its options look like: https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/gcc/common.opt
<Drup> edwin: I would rather create some utility functions that maps my specific use cases
<edwin> well yeah the input could be an ocaml list/array that has tuples (kind of like stdlib Arg again)
<edwin> to reduce the amount of boilerplate/glue that needs to be written for each option
<edwin> I think the problem is not so much with constructing the args,terms, but how to get cmdliner to evaluate your list map
<edwin> without having to call a function with 100 arguments
<Drup> that is not very difficult
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<def`> theblatte: 4.02.0 :O
<theblatte> no good? :p
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<def`> theblatte: can't you switch to 4.02.3
<def`> ?
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<theblatte> yeah I'll do that
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<adrien> anyone knows/remembers of a tentative schedule for the next major release?
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<Drup> adrien: mailing list, 27 november
<j0sh> adrien: also, https://www.reddit.com/r/ocaml/comments/3uc0bo/status_of_new_release/ (idk if thats the same info as on the ML)
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<adrien> thanks both
<adrien> "The plan is to have a feature freeze in December, and some form of beta/release candidate some weeks later, so that people can test and report issues before a release in early 2016."
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<flux> hmm, "Protect Unix.sleep against interruptions by handled signals. Before, a handled signal could cause Unix.sleep to return early. Now, the sleep is restarted until the given time is elapsed.", surely this should be user-selectable? or better use Unix.select I suppose.
<flux> but I wonder if that might break some code.
<adrien> that goes against spec =/
<adrien> but what's really missing: pushing people towards the clock_* API
<flux> the what now?-)
<adrien> clock_gettime, clock_nanosleep, ...
<flux> ah you mean the posix (?) api
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<flux> but they don't come with ocaml
<adrien> you can chose the clock and they make it easy to deal with interruptions by signals
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<flux> there seems to be oclock and posix-clock in opam. and also mtime.
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<adrien> yeah, I wish the Unix' documentation would mention that
<adrien> I think extunix has them too
<edwin> internally that commit uses nanosleep if available
<adrien> :)
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<adrien> but some of that should be exposed to the user
<adrien> sleep() is deeply flawed
<adrien> whatever Unix.sleep does can only paper over that =/
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